Diversity with June Sarpong: why are people living with disabilities overlooked by business?

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I'm June Sarpong and I'm the author of Diversify.
I was disabled for four years of my life.
When I was a teenager, I was hit by a car,
didn't walk for two years, and then I
had to wear a neck brace for another two.
The thing that was just so strange about it
for me was the way people reacted towards me
after the accident.
The way people treated me, it was...
I almost saw a kind of dumbing down.
It was the most bizarre thing.
And I think that experience is what
has made me so passionate about this issue
because I wasn't any different as a person,
but the world certainly reacted to me in that way.
This is a quote from George Bush,
not somebody I quote often.
And this quote was in relation to African-American kids
in the inner cities but what he spoke about
was the soft bigotry of low expectations.
And that really applies for our disabled community.
We've looked at gender.
We've looked at BAME.
We're now looking at disability.
Could you imagine having 500 Sheryl Sandbergs,
leaning in for disability and with disability?
We would get this done.
If we want disability to be meaningfully at the business
table we need the leaders.
It's got to be the leaders.
The uncomfortable truth is, they don't exist.
I believe, and many do, that the diversity and inclusion
agenda is very difficult for business,
where we're pitting humanity against each other.
This year, we'll do gender.
We'll do race.
We'll ..do Next year, we'll do LGBTQ.
What are we talking about?
A la carte and pick-and-mix inclusion?
Are you kidding me?
Since when did we think it was OK to have a hierarchy
of exclusion or inclusion?
My name's Erin Boyce.
I work at Alliance Learning and I'm a business administrator,
currently an apprentice.
I'm registered blind.
I have a condition called retinitis pigmentosa.
Actually, I moved out of my parents' house about a week
after I left college.
I really felt determined to get out and start living
this new chapter of my life.
So that was in the July that I left and I moved out.
I thought my prospects were pretty
positive about getting a job.
And then I was applying to things
and I wasn't getting anything at all.
And at this point I was still putting my visual impairment
on my CV.
I felt like it was all framed in a positive way
and it shouldn't have put them off.
But I didn't get any kind of response at all.
Then in October I decided to take that off my CV
and I got two interviews that month.
And I didn't put it on again.
I went to 18 interviews.
And for most people that's the give-up point.
And I didn't because I really still wanted to work,
so I kept going for it.
But I know a lot of people who have given up,
and those are people that are perfectly able to work.
And if you reached out to them and you
said, hey, we know this employer is accepting,
we know that they are willing to make adaptations,
maybe you should apply to them, you're
going to get high-quality applicants because, actually, I
know in the case of visually impaired people in general,
there is actually a higher rate of them
going to university than the general public
because they know that their chances of getting a job
are much worse.
So they go into higher education more often.
I really do think it is a massive opportunity
for employers.
And it's something, being on the inside now,
having this opportunity to hopefully make a difference
if I can, having had my personal experience.
I'm trying now to actually get us to tap into that because I
think there are just... there's this massive amount
of high-quality applicants out there.
And they're more resilient.
They're more loyal.
When you've slogged through all these interviews
and you've had all these things said to you
and you feel like utter garbage, and then somebody treats you
like you're not a burden for once
and they're willing to make all these adaptations for you,
you know what you've got at that point.
So Alan, here we have the statistics
relating to disability and employment in Britain?
That's right.
Probably bleaker than any of the other data we've looked at.
Well, it depends how you look at it.
I mean, one thing I could say is we
could start with a good-news story, June,
which is that if you look at from when the figures
that we've got that we can go back as far as 2013,
there's a consistent trend in the employment
rate of disabled people.
Consistent increase, yeah.
Both for men and for women.
And in fact, the employment rate of women with disability,
you can see it's actually accelerated a little bit faster
than the employment rate for men with disability
and crucially has crossed this 50 per cent line
for the first time.
So the employment rate overall for both men and women
is now over 50 per cent.
But just over 50 per cent.
Just over 50 per cent, and so...
And we would not be celebrating that for any other group.
Exactly.
So in fact, that's exactly where this term, the disability
employment gap, pops up because that line now
looks slightly less impressive.
That's the same data we've just been looking at, starting at 0
and finishing at 100.
So this is the entire scale of the chart,
and you can see this is a very modest improvement.
But I mean, the real putting those numbers into context
really only happens when you put the employment rate for people
without disability on top.
OK?
And so you can see that there really is this...
this thing.
And this is what we're calling the disability employment gap.
And if you look at how those figures have
changed since 2013, there's been a modest narrowing of the gap.
It was 33.1 percentage points back in 2013.
It's now down to 28.9 per cent.
My name is Gemma-Louise Stevenson,
and I am a freelance reporter for Sky Sports.
Alongside my reporting, I'm also an athlete.
I don't like to stop.
I'm quite busy.
I just want to live life to the full,
and I want to make the most of life.
Oh, my god.
Yeah.
So Gemma, here we are at Sky, your place of work...
my place of work sometimes too, actually.
I'm going to ask you what sounds like a very dumb question.
But for employers, how do they advertise to disabled people?
So what is that?
What is the thing that they need to do to make it very clear
that this is who they're targeting?
I mean, I think for me, it's all very well having these training
schemes.
Like, I went through a training scheme myself.
However, it was a very negative experience
because the whole atmosphere wasn't inclusive originally
to start with.
OK
I they're a good idea, but I'm also very cynical of them
because you can have all these great, inclusive training
schemes to get people into the workplace,
to show them what it's like, to give them
experience so that they can then go in a job.
But if the workplace to start with
is not an inclusive workplace, you're
not going to retain those staff.
One thing I find about the Sky is, they're very inclusive.
They treat me as an individual.
I'm seen as a reporter first before a wheelchair
user who happens to be a reporter, which
is so important.
Whether you're a reporter like myself
or whether you're working in HR or in administration,
you are working in HR, you are working in administration,
you're working in media, before your disability.
I use the social model of disability,
which is the favoured version amongst the disabled community.
So it's not saying that my illness makes me disabled.
It's the environment around me not being
accessible makes me disabled.
What's your message to employers, and particularly HR
directors, in terms of what they can do when they are creating
an application and also making sure
that that application reaches people with disabilities,
and then secondly, once they do hire people with disabilities,
make sure that they're able to thrive within their companies?
I think my biggest point would be, treat everybody
as an individual.
Ah!
One thing...
Oh, no, no, no, no.
This is powerful.
Yeah.
It's not about treating everybody equally as such.
It's treating everybody as an individual,
understanding that we all have individual needs.
Yeah, because we all have different needs to be equal.
To achieve equality is really based on treating everybody
as an individual.
Yeah.
It's very much talk to the person because we
as disabled people are very good at communicating.
Because you have to be.
We have to.
Yeah.
And do you know what?
We know it's not going to be perfect.
We know it's never...
we're not striving for perfection.
We're just striving for a way to work that enables us to work.
Striving for inclusion.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And things will go wrong.
Even in the most inclusive environments,
things will go wrong.
But do you know what makes the difference between an employer
I want to stay with and an employer
I want to leave behind?
The difference is is that they listen to me.
Hi, my name is Caroline Casey, and I'm the founder
of The Valuable 500.
In the BAME episode, we talked about the dangers
of blanket terms.
Yeah.
When you lump all people of colour together when
their lived experiences are so different.
The same applies to disability, whether...
Absolutely.
...whether it's physical, sensory, or cognitive.
It's a very different lived experience.
And then acquired or congenital.
There you go.
You've just talked about BAME or the soft bigotry.
Look what we're finding out.
This conversation about disability
is no different, right?
This is not rocket science.
But what I find very interesting to your question about why
is the issue of disability so on the edges of business
is because of the fear of the complexity,
the fear of getting it wrong.
And actually, I'll be really honest.
They would rather try and deal with things
that may be simpler and more straightforward and easy
because can you imagine what a business has
to deal with in trying to get it all right?
And I've noticed with disability, they say,
but what do we do, Caroline?
What do we do?
And I'm like, but what did you do
when you started to have the conversation
about the environment?
What did you do when you started to have
the conversation about gender?
Surely, you looked at what's happening in your business.
And what's happening elsewhere that's working.
What did your competitors do?
What did people outside do?
Did you go to experts?
Did you talk to the cohort of people?
Because the most important thing about disability
is just to ask.
Yeah, just to ask.
I don't know what your lived experience is.
You don't know what mine is.
But we can have the conversation.
When you look at the employment rates for different types
of disability, you realise that looking at averages is very
dangerous because, actually, for some disabilities like hearing,
the employment rate's well over 60 per cent.
Yes.
But actually, down here we've got things
like epilepsy, mental illness, speech impediments.
Learning difficulties.
Yeah, exactly.
And those rates are very, very different.
So in fact, when you look at the average
that we were just looking at, which is just over half,
51 per cent, you can see there's the disability employment
gap that we were looking at.
But look at these people here with these kinds
of disabilities.
The gap is much wider.
Nowhere near.
Nowhere near.
They're nowhere near even the average of people
with disabilities in general.
Exactly.
So with something like epilepsy only,
the employment rate is around about 33 per cent.
But is...
I would've thought there are certain forms of disability
because the thing with this is obviously
people are self-identifying.
There are a lot of people who cover their disabilities, one
of the things that Caroline Casey was talking about.
This is something she did herself.
I would have thought there were a lot
of these forms of disabilities that people probably
don't actually report.
Yeah.
I mean, that's one of the weaknesses
of a self-reported survey, which is
that you're entirely reliant on someone submitting
that information.
And I mean, I think even with physical disabilities,
looking at this data, the thing that's
really interesting is not one of these categories
actually reaches the employment rate of people
without disabilities anyway.
Of course, the other thing that we can talk about with this,
is that what we're seeing here is our best data
that we have on this at the moment,
but it's nowhere near like as comprehensive as the data we
would get for something like the gender pay gap
where we're asking companies to report.
This is... this is a quarterly survey...
Do you think that's the sort of thing that needs to happen?
Do you think that we need reporting on this?
Obviously, there's discussions around reporting
on BAME and pay gaps.
I think that certainly the same arguments
that you could make historically until we got the gender
reporting and now with the pressure for BAME,
I think you can make exactly the same arguments for disability,
partly because what we've been looking at up to now
is just the employment rates and this general pattern.
The physical disabilities have slightly higher employment
rates generally than mental.
But in fact, the Equalities and Human Rights Commission
have carried out some analysis of the disability pay gap.
And that takes us much more into this territory
where we're thinking, well, where
do we start talking about a requirement for companies
to report?
Can we talk about the role legislation has to play?
So...
Very important.
I'm very interested in some of the stuff that's
going on in China in terms of actually mandating
large businesses to make sure that a percentage
of the workforce is from the disabled community.
What are your thoughts on that kind of legislation?
OK.
So the quota question comes up.
What I'm worried about on the quota systems,
in many of the OECD countries who have these quotas about
employment figures, which are often around 10 per cent
representation in the employment body...
And fines if you don't meet them.
50 per cent of them pay the fines.
I know.
They write them...
Into their budgets.
...into their budgets.
So I'm just like, ugh.
So then there's no point to having legislation
if we are not going to stand over our legislation.
Yeah.
I'm Yana Kakar, the global managing partner of Dalberg.
It was wonderful to have your team observe the roundtable
and sort of take away the nuggets
and then compile a to-do, an action point, for CEOs and HRs.
Often there is a real focus on, am I
recruiting a sufficiently diverse group,
or am I incentivising them sufficiently?
But understanding how diversity drives better team performance
and then how to incentivise diversity across the lifecycle
once you have a diverse set of employees,
that's where the trick is.
If you think about what's the value, what's the performance
value that we're talking about from diversity and inclusion,
it's the diversity of the thought
and the decision making and the risk aversion and stopping
groupthink.
And just on that, I mean, we still
have on those dimensions of diversity
pretty poor measurement and metrics,
beyond the identifiable characteristics.
And it's good that we're doing a better job of recording those.
When it comes to personality differences,
cognitive differences, we're still at the foothills
there of thinking about how to get a fix on that when
building genuinely diverse teams across all its dimensions.
The composition of the balance of characters in the team
is so critical.
Exactly.
And the notion, as Helena was saying,
of genuinely team-based recruitment,
performance evaluation, and promotion,
that's... we're still a world away from having.
Ignition is a brewery in southeast London.
We have a taproom as well, and we
sell draft ale and bottled ale.
Our secret is that our staff team have learning
disabilities, but the beer they make is so good that we're able
to sell it and pay them the London living wage of £10.55
an hour.
Wow.
I mean, we've been looking at the data in relation
to people with disabilities in the workplace
and particularly learning disabilities.
That group in particular earn the least
and are the least likely to be employed.
Is that why you decided to focus on that side of disability?
Sort of.
So yeah, you're absolutely right.
It was 94 per cent of people had no job.
They've actually stopped measuring it,
so I think the government now have just given up.
Because it's so bad.
What's the point?
You're trying to sell an idea.
And I think what we've learned about this
is, it's about people.
People employ people.
And also to create the kind of culture
where your employees can thrive because if you're
taking somebody with learning disabilities
into an environment that isn't prepared for them,
sometimes you can be doing that employee a disservice.
So what's wonderful about here is,
you've created the kind of environment
that's inclusive enough for all your employees to thrive.
Oh, thank you.
And I think...
It matters.
I think what's good about this is, actually,
a lot of the changes that we've made in comparison to places
where I've worked before, actually we've
got a much healthier culture.
And I've now gone and employed those
in places where I will work.
And it's a lot of the things we've had to do about being
patient or getting a good routine or having a healthy...
the way in which you talk to each other being really healthy
are actually just things anyone should do.
And I think we are an extreme version of what
I'd like the world to be because our team is obviously
very special.
But I think the impact that someone
could have with a learning disability for the better
in your business is really good because it's great for morale.
It's also great for sort of, I think,
getting people just to behave better and think,
actually, I'm at work, and I need to show a good example,
and I need to be a better person.
You're an economist by trade.
Yes.
We won't hold that against you.
But do you think that also influenced your decision
to actually do something about this problem,
knowing how many people were out of work
and how much we're losing out on as an economy
as a result of that?
Yeah.
So it was a kind of... it's a financial gamble in a way,
I thought.
The best way to show that our guys can generate you profit
an income is set up a company.
Is to show it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so we've taken people with no...
I have no brewing experience.
They have no brewing experience.
I'm not mad about beer.
I quite like our beer.
And actually, we've created a business that is surplus making
and is a good employer based on their talents.
For anybody wanting to replicate your model, for corporations
who want to look at doing something like this on a larger
scale, what are the pitfalls?
What are the difficulties?
Because let's be frank about that too.
So I think it's a big cultural change.
And we all know cultural change is the hardest.
Yeah, it's really difficult. And there
needs to be buy-in at the top, is the first thing.
So the top honcho, they need to say
I'm really committed to this, and we're
going to make it happen.
And without that, it won't happen.
It's very simple.
And then I think there's been a lot
of the kind of systematisation of employment
for people with disabilities.
So there's a checklist, and they make them interview-ready.
Then there's a CV-ready thing.
And we just largely discarded that too.
You did?
Yes, we did.
We did.
So you got rid of that whole process.
So what we've done is, we've started very much
with the people and said, do you want to work with us?
Are you really keen?
Yeah.
And then they'll say, yes.
OK.
Well, come and just do a shift because, actually, that's
the best way for us to learn, because even if they can't
do any of it, that's fine.
But you can tell if the aptitude is there.
And if they sort of go, OK... because pulling a pint is
actually really... well, I find it really hard.
And so...
It is.
I've never done it.
It's really difficult because it come...
the head's too big.
It's too small.
It's too flat.
It's too cold.
But you can tell if someone's going to keep
on going till they get it.
And then once they get it, it's...
They've got it.
If you want to truly, I suppose, maximise the performance
potential of your diverse teams, you bring them on board,
and then you identify where are there sort of hidden
constraints to top performance?
Where are there ways in which diversity, which we know
has been statistically proven to be a key driver
of financial performance?
I mean, it was shocking to me to see that it was so...
so well quantified that literally it's
a percentage of increased financial performance
if you have a diverse team.
And you can just see the needle go up and down.
But yet there's still resistance.
There is.
It makes no sense.
I know.
Well, it's...
you sort of...
we spend enough time, I think, on the diagnosis
or the demonstration of the business case.
OK.
But then committing and executing the action...
that's what the next step is.
Yeah.
OK.
So we have workforce.
Let's talk about customers and consumers in terms of what
a CEO or a leader within an organisation can do to add
value in relation to diversity for the customers.
The interesting thing about customers, or consumers,
is, it is only a medium-known fact the degree to which
the diverse consumer is growing in strength, buying power
strength, decision-making power strength.
I found it fascinating.
One of your attendees at the CEO roundtable, Karen Blackett,
CEO - powerful CEO in her own right - and she said, look,
over the last decade, we have seen minority buying power go
from £30bn-odd to £300bn.
So let's just...
let's pause and think about that.
Yeah.
So shifting gears to say, well, who is this diverse customer
that I have out there, and understanding...
That I'm not servicing properly.
Exactly, and understanding, how do I actually
tailor myself, my product, my solution, my approach, in order
to capture them?
The most provocative way to get anybody in business interested
is to look at their bottom line.
Yeah.
So let's just talk about the UK.
OK.
You're worth £249bn.
billion.
That is what this disability community is worth.
There's massive competition going on on those high streets.
Why are you not listening?
I think it's really interesting when
we see that supermarkets supplying for the 400,000
vegans because they see it as value, right?
But let's be honest, because they see it as value.
Well, what about
Twenty per cent of the population?
What about 20 per cent of the population here?
So I think Barclays have always made the intention very
clear they want to be the most accessible and inclusive FTSE
company.
And they do that through their consumer offering.
But the best example of all time for any of this is Apple.
Really?
Why?
How so?
Because Steve Jobs, we know, was probably very difficult,
but he was a visionary.
And he wanted to create the most beautiful products
that everybody else in the world could use.
That's called universal design.
Apple was the very first brand in the world
to reach $1tn Why do you think that is?
It's because there are more of us who can use their products.
Actually, Apple is a brand that most of the disabled community
will choose.
So was that a consideration when they were designing...
Yeah.
He just wanted to have...
Wow, their hardware.
... beautiful products...
I had no idea.
...for everyone.
Now, they don't shout about being an inclusive
or an accessible company.
It's universal design.
Sometimes we forget that if we get
design right for the full spectrum of disability,
we'll probably get it right for all of us.
I kind of think the business case to incentivise business,
let me just tell you, it's an $8tn market.
It's a brand opportunity.
It's an uncluttered space.
It's the acquisition and retention of talent.
It's about innovation.
It's productivity.
The next generation really care about spending money
and working with companies that allow you to be who you are.
Why have we not seen accelerated change?
I'll go back to where we began...
because the most powerful force on this planet
is making a decision to leave the disability community
as an invisible market.
And unless it gets into this game,
meaningfully invests in it, we will
continue to see, no matter what, no matter
what legislation you do in the world, because let's be honest.
Money runs the world - power, money, business.
It affects politics.
And I don't think any legislation will be able
to solve this if businesses don't take responsibility,
but...
and take up the opportunity.
I believe diversity has a triple-line benefit
to business for innovation, productivity, and bottom line.
It's a triple-line bonus, the individual,
to society and peace at large, and to the business bottom
line.
I mean, what is not to like?