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  • (APPLAUSE)

  • Well, thank you so much for that.

  • Thank you so much for inviting me back to the Opera House.

  • I remember the first time I spoke here,

  • I thought, "This is definitely going to be the last time,"

  • but it's now, I think, even my fourth time here,

  • so it's an incredibly generous gesture on the part

  • not only of the Opera House

  • but also of the whole city of Sydney.

  • I can't thank you enough.

  • What I want to talk about today is my new book

  • and the themes that underlie it,

  • and I guess it's worth saying that throughout my career,

  • I've been in search of guidance.

  • I don't believe that the business of living

  • is very obvious.

  • It's not very obvious to me.

  • On a daily basis, I'm reminded of how little I know

  • and how things are extremely complicated

  • and don't necessarily have easy answers.

  • And this has led me to look in a number of different areas

  • for what I could broadly call wisdom.

  • I've looked at the world of philosophy.

  • I've looked at the world of literature,

  • of art, of sociology,

  • and then a few years ago, I began to be interested

  • in the field of religion.

  • Now, this surprised me as much as anyone else

  • because I didn't happen to believe anything,

  • and still don't believe anything,

  • and in our society, we assume, naturally,

  • that those who don't believe

  • won't really care very much for religion

  • and won't be able to see anything in it,

  • but I suppose my whole argument is

  • that that's perhaps not entirely true.

  • One of the major divisions of the world nowadays

  • is between those who believe and those who don't,

  • between atheists, or agnostics, and believers,

  • and for about the last, I would say, 10 years or so,

  • it's been relatively clear, in the minds of many,

  • what being an atheist means.

  • Being an atheist means someone

  • who not only believes that God doesn't exist,

  • but it also means someone

  • who thinks that anyone who believes that God does exist

  • is a simpleton.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • Or an idiot, to put it more politely.

  • So, in other words,

  • a rather virulent kind of atheism stalks the land

  • that essentially believes

  • that there is something quite wrong with believers.

  • They are not simply making another choice.

  • They made very much the wrong choice

  • and need their errors pointed out to them

  • in intellectual ways.

  • They've made an intellectual error,

  • and therefore, they need an intellectual corrective.

  • I've got a few quibbles with this,

  • and my approach is slightly different.

  • I don't believe

  • that the question of God's existence or non-existence

  • is the most interesting one in this topic.

  • In fact, I think it's incredibly boring and sterile,

  • because one never really makes any headway.

  • You know, on the one hand, you've got the believers,

  • who think the atheists are going to hell,

  • and on the other hand, you've got the atheists,

  • who think that the believers are rather stupid,

  • and that kind of divide is, for me, painful and sad,

  • and I don't really want to dwell on it.

  • So I'm taking a different road.

  • For me, I am an atheist, and so I want to begin, really, now

  • with something which may surprise you,

  • and if you feel very strongly about it,

  • please make your ways to the exit,

  • and I won't hold any grudges,

  • but, you know, let's be honest with each other.

  • I don't think God exists.

  • Now, let's move on.

  • -(LAUGHTER) -If we can.

  • I think that's the end of the matter.

  • -Now, the greater question is... -(LAUGHTER)

  • ..where...

  • The greater question is, where are we gonna go from here?

  • Now we've settled that question, where are we gonna go from here?

  • How are we going to live a good life? How is our society...

  • How are our societies to be managed

  • with that insight in mind?

  • And I suppose I'm writing for someone

  • who's a little bit like me, who thinks something like this.

  • I don't believe in the doctrines of religion,

  • but I do like singing Christmas carols,

  • and I quite like some of the passages of the Old Testament,

  • and I love the music of Bach,

  • and there's something about Zen Buddhist temples,

  • and there's something about the moral structure

  • that you find in certain religions, etc, etc.

  • You know the sort of person - someone who cannot believe

  • but is attracted to aspects of religion.

  • Now, for too long, the choice has been either

  • you sign up to all the doctrines,

  • involving many supernatural incidents, etc,

  • and then you get all those nice bits,

  • or you find you can't sign up to these doctrines,

  • and then you're left in a sort of wasteland,

  • where there's a lot that isn't really attended to.

  • I want to suggest a different strategy.

  • I want to suggest it not just for myself

  • but, as it were, for our own times,

  • and that's a strategy of stealing from religions,

  • that atheists should learn to inform themselves

  • about what religions are up to

  • and then selectively steal the best bits.

  • Now, this has been described to me sometimes

  • as a bit of a pick-and-mix approach,

  • and the truth is, that's exactly what it is,

  • and I'm very, very proud of pick-and-mix

  • when it comes to religion.

  • Some people say, you know,

  • I've rifled through the buffet of religions.

  • Well, that's great. I think that religions are a buffet.

  • They lie before us, and a lot of what you might put on your plate

  • is, to my eyes, not that appetising.

  • But there are some really lovely bits,

  • so I'm gonna go round with my plate

  • around some major religions and pick the nicest bits,

  • in my eyes.

  • That is my overt strategy.

  • I don't mean to offend,

  • but I think that if you'd believe, as I do,

  • that religions are essentially cultural products,

  • that they were made by humans,

  • then there seems to be nothing wrong with choosing among them

  • like one would with any work of culture.

  • I mean, imagine... Take music.

  • You know, imagine you like the Beatles,

  • and somebody said, "Oh, right, you like the Beatles,

  • "so I hope you're committed to the Beatles

  • "and will listen to every single track

  • "and never deviate and make no time for,

  • "you know, "Robbie Williams,

  • "because, really, you must stick to the Beatles,"

  • that would seem bizarre.

  • We naturally rifle through the buffet of cultures,

  • be it in music or in literature -

  • you can go from a bit of Jane Austen to a bit of Shakespeare

  • to a bit of James Joyce, and that's allowed.

  • You can create a playlist.

  • And that's what I want to suggest

  • that contemporary society can do as regards religion too.

  • So, what I want to do tonight is take you through the buffet

  • and show you the bits that I'm picking.

  • You may want to pick out other bits.

  • What I'm trying to show you is a method, and...

  • 'Cause I think at the end of the day,

  • the method is more important than particular choices, but...

  • Let me take you through some of these choices.

  • So one area that I think religions are fascinating in

  • is the area of education.

  • Now, education is something that the secular world

  • prides itself on taking very seriously.

  • Huge amounts of money are devoted to education, and...

  • Now, the question is, what is education for?

  • Well, when politicians talk about it,

  • the prime explanation is that education will provide us

  • with the skills necessary to take up a place

  • in modern capitalism.

  • So education will give us technical and business skills

  • to make our societies richer and safer.

  • But there's another claim that you often hear made

  • on behalf of modern education,

  • and you sometimes catch it during the more lyrical moments

  • of politicians' speeches

  • or at the end of graduation ceremonies.

  • And that's the suggestion that education can, in some ways,

  • make you into a better human being,

  • a fuller, richer, nobler person -

  • it can make you into a grown-up citizen.

  • Now, I like those claims.

  • I think they do sound rather beautiful.

  • And I want to explore them, because I think in some ways,

  • we've failed to honour that second claim

  • associated with education,

  • and I think we've partly failed to honour it

  • because we've forgotten about religion.

  • Let me explain.

  • In the 19th century, in the UK,

  • church attendance started falling off a cliff.

  • In the middle of the 19th century,

  • the numbers really collapsed year by year.

  • And this set off a real panic amongst many people,

  • who wondered where on earth society was going to find

  • its sources of consolation, its ethical framework,

  • its guidance, its morality -

  • where were these things gonna be found?

  • They had been the preserve of religion.

  • Where were they gonna be found?

  • Now, there was one influential group

  • among whom you might call the chattering classes of Britain

  • who came up with a fascinating answer.

  • People like John Stuart Mill and Matthew Arnold suggested

  • that there was a ready-made replacement for religion,

  • and that replacement was called, with a capital 'C', Culture,

  • works of culture, ranging from the essays of Plato,

  • the plays of Shakespeare, the novels of Jane Austen -

  • they comprised a corpus of knowledge and wisdom

  • that could do very much all the things

  • that religions have traditionally done.

  • They too could be sources of guidance,

  • of morality, of consolation.

  • In other words, culture can replace Scripture.

  • That was the dream of a certain kind of reformer

  • in the mid-19th century.

  • Now, I actually think this was a really good idea.

  • I fervently believe that culture can get us through

  • some of the great challenges of our life.

  • I'd add a few more things, like cinema

  • and photography and music,

  • but all of these things together are vital tools to a good life,

  • and I think these reformers were absolutely right.

  • The problem is that that insight

  • has fallen entirely by the wayside

  • as regards the modern educational establishment.

  • I mean, imagine if you went to any university, in Australia,

  • or even anywhere in the world - say you went to Harvard,

  • apparently the best university -

  • and you said, "Look, I've come to study at Harvard

  • "because I want to find a moral framework.

  • "I need ethical guidance.

  • "I need to learn how to love, to live and to die."

  • The administration people

  • would start looking at you so strangely,

  • they'd be dialling up the ambulance,

  • if not the insane asylum.

  • This is simply not what the modern educational system

  • believes it's in the business of doing.

  • It doesn't believe that it's providing ethical guidance,

  • a moral framework or consolation.

  • And the reason it doesn't is that it assumes that people,

  • once they've become adults,

  • sort of know how to live.

  • It's a fairly obvious business, knowing how to live.

  • You know, you get up in the morning

  • and you find a life partner and you have children,

  • you find a job that you like

  • and you watch your parents die and your friends get ill,

  • and eventually you're diagnosed with a fatal illness,

  • and then it's time for you to head to hospital

  • and gradually shut the coffin

  • and slide yourself easily into the earth,

  • and it's kind of obvious - we don't need help.

  • All of that's kind of pretty much taken care of

  • without any further need.

  • Now, that's their view, so their view is,

  • "Don't drag culture into the business

  • "of telling us how to live.

  • "A proper academic, a proper university,

  • "does not soil itself with these questions."

  • And that's why the university education system

  • is suspicious of questions of relevance.

  • You know, "Why do we want to make this thing relevant?

  • "There's no need.

  • "We're rational beings, fully in command of ourselves,

  • "and we can make this journey on our own, thanks very much."

  • Now, religions start

  • from a completely different point of view.

  • For a start, for religions,

  • we're only just holding it together.

  • All of us are in trouble, real trouble.

  • For religions, all the major religions, at various points,

  • call us children.

  • And what do children need? They need help. They need guidance.

  • And so religions assume us to be broken creatures

  • who throughout our lives are going to need help.

  • There is nothing obvious about the business of living,

  • and we will need assistance throughout it,

  • throughout our lives,

  • so guidance is absolutely fundamental.

  • You know, the Christian concept of original sin

  • has many dark undertones and associations,

  • but really what it's trying to get you to take on board

  • is that from the very beginning,

  • there's something a bit wrong with you,

  • and that's what religions tend to believe,

  • I think, not wrongly, as I'll go on to show, so...

  • So religions start with this idea of our fragility,

  • and they see themselves as in the business

  • of helping us along that journey.

  • I don't necessarily believe in the advice they give us

  • at every stage along that journey.

  • In fact, only at very select moments

  • can I agree with what they say,

  • but, but, I'm fascinated by how they feel

  • that we need this guidance.

  • Have a think about the ways in which religions

  • deliver their knowledge to people.

  • You know, in the secular world,

  • when people want to deliver knowledge,

  • they give a lecture.

  • When religions deliver knowledge,

  • they deliver a sermon.

  • And what's the difference between a sermon and a lecture?

  • Well, a lecture wants to, you know, share some facts,

  • and a sermon wants to change and perhaps save your life -

  • in other words, a much more urgent, didactic process

  • is going on in religions.

  • So, as I say, I don't necessarily believe

  • what they're telling us all the time,

  • or, indeed, for a lot of the time,

  • but I'm fascinated by the urgency

  • that religions bring to the business of living,

  • and I think there's something that the secular world

  • leaves really quite absent - there's a real gap here.

  • Now, moving on, moving slightly along this buffet,

  • kind of a related point -

  • I've been discussing, as it were, the form of education...

  • ..sorry, the content of education,

  • but I now want to discuss the delivery mechanisms of education

  • that religions are working with.

  • I think religions can be seen

  • as supremely successful educational machines.

  • There's never been educational machines

  • as accomplished as they are.

  • So let's look at what they do.

  • Let's look at how come they're so good

  • at getting their ideas across.

  • Well, one of their first insights

  • is that human beings are incredibly forgetful.

  • Our minds are like sieves.

  • Religions have been very influenced in the West

  • by the Greek insight that we suffer

  • from what the ancient Greek philosophers called akrasia.

  • Now, what is akrasia?

  • 'Akrasia' is translated as 'weakness of will'.

  • So weakness of will suggests that there are lots of things

  • that intellectually we know full well

  • but practically we don't do or abide by

  • because we get swept away by the hubbub of events.

  • Our wills are weak.

  • And so, for religions,

  • what you need to do is to strengthen that will

  • in order to make

  • the knowledge that you actually believe in effective,

  • in order to make ideas stick.

  • So, because you're so forgetful,

  • one of the first things that religions recommend that you do

  • is repeat things.

  • All religions emphasise repetition.

  • Think of prayers, you know.

  • At 9:00 in the morning, you get down on your knees

  • and you say some stuff.

  • By midday, you'll have forgotten it, so back down on your knees.

  • By evening time, you'll have forgotten it again,

  • so back down on your knees, you know, and...

  • Now, of course, in the secular world,

  • we associate repetition with sterility.

  • It's like, "Oh, I've already seen that film.

  • "Oh, I read that book a year ago."

  • That's the sort of modern approach.

  • Now, the problem is, with that approach,

  • is that it does mean that a lot less sticks.

  • You know sometimes when you come out of a film

  • and it's been a really good film and you come out and you think,

  • "Wow! I want to transform my life."

  • "'Cause," you know, "that sense of energy

  • "or love or beauty that was in that film,

  • "I want to flood my life with it

  • "and kind of make a new start."

  • Problem is, by the time you're having your sandwich

  • at lunchtime the next day,

  • you've forgotten the film.

  • And, you know, the next month,

  • you wouldn't even remember the title.

  • Ditto with books. We forget everything.

  • Our minds are like sieves.

  • And yet the secular world keeps thinking

  • that you can sit somebody in a classroom at the age of 20,

  • pour in some really vital stuff and it'll still be there

  • across a 40-year career in management consultancy.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • The problem is, it generally doesn't work like that.

  • So, religions are much more careful.

  • They're careful with time.

  • Now, what all the religions do is manage our calendars.

  • You know, our diaries tend to be packed with lots of things,

  • but when you look at what they're packed with,

  • they tend to be packed with the appointments of capitalism -

  • a meeting here, a business appointment,

  • you know, checking in with a tax inspector.

  • They're things that we need to keep our working lives going,

  • or our social lives going.

  • That's what we put in our diaries.

  • Now, religions are interesting, 'cause they have diaries -

  • all of them have diaries - but they put

  • slightly different things in those diaries.

  • They put things related to our inner self.

  • They try and give us appointments

  • with psychologically important ideas

  • from a belief that unless they are in our diaries,

  • we'll just forget about them.

  • So they want to lend structure,

  • so every religion has a structure of some sort, so...

  • Take Catholicism.

  • You know, on 31 March, you will be thinking about St Jerome

  • and his qualities of humility and patience, etc.

  • Every day has an idea associated with it.

  • And I think it's rather useful,

  • because I think many of the things that we care a lot about

  • do slip through the cracks.

  • Take the moon, right?

  • Looking at the moon is, I think, a really wonderful,

  • beautiful, calming thing to do.

  • You look at the moon and you think, "Well, I'm so small.

  • "This thing's so far away. The universe is so large."

  • And somehow your soul is stilled,

  • some of the anxieties of the day lessen

  • as you look up at the moon.

  • And often one thinks,

  • "You know, I should do this a little bit more often."

  • But the problem is that we don't.

  • You know, none of us spend much time looking at the moon.

  • The reason is we're too busy, other things come along, etc,

  • so it goes by the wayside, but, but, if you're a Zen Buddhist,

  • you've got an appointment with the moon,

  • and that appointment comes in the middle of September,

  • at the festival of Tsukimi,

  • where you'll be asked out of your house

  • and made to stand on specially made canonical platforms

  • and you'll sing some songs and recite poetry

  • in honour of the moon,

  • and you will remember the fragility of life,

  • the importance of friendship and the brevity of life on earth,

  • all the while eating some rice cakes.

  • So it's a charming ritual, a charming ceremony,

  • designed to put a place in the diary

  • for psychologically important ideas,

  • and that's really what a ritual is, you know.

  • Religions are full of rituals. What is a ritual?

  • A ritual is a social event that has as its ultimate goal

  • some inner transformation,

  • some psychological transformation,

  • and rituals really throw up the difference

  • between modern society and religious society.

  • Modern society is obsessed with spontaneity.

  • We think we'll find our way to the important stuff

  • on our own, in our own time.

  • "No-one should tell me what to do and when to do it.

  • "It should just bubble up."

  • And the problem,

  • however beguiling that is as an idea conceptually,

  • the problem is, you know, we don't really do it.

  • Take springtime.

  • Another lovely ritual that you find, in Judaism this time,

  • is called Birkat Ha'ilanot

  • where every springtime, you take a rabbi, or the rabbi takes you,

  • out into the fields

  • and you look at the new blossom on the trees

  • and you recite some poetry and some prayers

  • in honour of the beauty of the fields and of the new year.

  • Now, Wordsworth was also doing this.

  • You know, if you read Wordsworth,

  • that's what it's all about, or a lot of it's about -

  • welcoming the new year, blossoms, etc.

  • The problem is,

  • and the reason why the ritual of Birkat Ha'ilanot

  • perhaps has got an edge over Shakespeare in some ways

  • is that none of us really read Sha...

  • ..not Shakespeare, Wordsworth.

  • The problem is that none of us actually read Wordsworth.

  • Well, we might have touched on him at university,

  • but, basically, you're not really gonna go and dig out

  • your Wordsworth nowadays.

  • It's something that is a theoretical possibility

  • that gets left by the wayside,

  • and religions, much more forceful,

  • try and timetable that.

  • Now, the other thing that religions know

  • in the field of education and delivery of education

  • is that if you have an important idea,

  • it's not enough simply that it is important and reasonable.

  • You need to get it across in a convincing way,

  • and in order to get it across so that it will stick,

  • you need to be a really good public speaker.

  • I'm letting you down here, but that's the idea.

  • You need to be a really good public speaker.

  • Otherwise, however good the idea is, it's just gonna fall limp,

  • which is, again, why the major religions

  • invest a lot in oratory,

  • and you find this at its best, probably,

  • in the American South, in the Pentecostalist tradition,

  • and any of you who've been to a Pentecostalist service

  • on a Sunday down in the American South

  • will know it's an extraordinary event.

  • You know, these preachers are amazing.

  • They'll say some stuff,

  • and when it gets really convincing and good,

  • people will say, "Amen! Amen! Amen!"

  • And if there's a really rousing point,

  • then members of the congregation will stand up and say,

  • "Thank you, Saviour. Thank you, Jesus. Thank you, Christ."

  • And there's a kind of call and response with the audience

  • and, you know, it's a real frenzy.

  • Now, compare that with the modern university.

  • -Everybody's there... -(LAUGHTER)

  • And... You know...

  • 'Cause the prof...the prof

  • thinks that it's enough that, you know...

  • He's got a PhD and his ideas are really logical,

  • so he thinks that's enough, but the problem is it's not,

  • 'cause it's not gonna stick.

  • And so my suggestion is that some of the profs

  • be sent over to Alabama for a little bit of instruction

  • with these Pentecostalist guys

  • so that at the end of our university lectures,

  • you'll get people standing up going, you know,

  • "Thank you, Montaigne, thank you, Shakespeare,

  • "thank you, Jane Austen."

  • And there'll be, you know, some real energy in the room.

  • But until then, things are gonna be quiet in the university.

  • Now, there's something else that religions remember

  • when they're trying to teach us something,

  • and that is that we are not merely brains.

  • We are not merely machines of reason.

  • We are embedded creatures.

  • In other words, we exist within bodies that are sensory,

  • that are passionate.

  • We have senses of smell, of sight, of hearing, of touch,

  • and if you want to try and teach someone something,

  • religions allege,

  • you have to involve these senses.

  • It's not enough simply to target reason.

  • And so all religions do this to one extent or another.

  • Take again Zen Buddhism.

  • One of the most charming lessons of Buddhism

  • is delivered along with the drink of a beverage,

  • and that is the Zen Buddhist tea ceremony.

  • Now, what is the Zen Buddhist tea ceremony?

  • At one level, it's a lesson in the brevity of life,

  • the importance of friendship, the value of the community,

  • all of these things, but it's not just lectured to you.

  • It's combined with the ritual drinking of some hot tea.

  • And there's a curious collaboration

  • and, if you like, sympathy

  • between the moral of the words that are used

  • and the moral of the tea,

  • so something physical is supporting

  • something psychological or intellectual, if you like,

  • and you find religions doing this all the time.

  • Take in Judaism -

  • Judaism, a religion really interested in forgiveness,

  • in notions of forgiveness,

  • but you don't just hear lectures on forgiveness.

  • If you live in an Orthodox community, every Friday,

  • the rabbi will lead you to the mikveh, the ritual bath,

  • which is often in a beautiful setting,

  • and you're asked to go back over the week,

  • confess to things that you've done

  • and ask for forgiveness,

  • forgiveness both of your friends and also of God,

  • and then you plunge into some water from head to toe -

  • you have a really good soak.

  • Now, I think all religions recognise

  • that there's some connection between water and lessons.

  • You find this across the religions.

  • And we know this from our own lives, our secular lives.

  • You know, sometimes,

  • when you want to change your mood in some ways,

  • you say, "I'm gonna take a bath. I'm gonna take a bath."

  • But the really life-changing capacity of water,

  • the capacity of immersion to effect a change,

  • is something that only religions are picking up on

  • with their full depth, and I mention this

  • because it's a characteristic move of these religions

  • to employ the body to make a lesson.

  • Let me go on to a few other things on the buffet.

  • Another area

  • that I think religions are really interesting in

  • is the world of art.

  • Now, in the secular world,

  • we think we've got art pretty well wrapped up,

  • 'cause we invest a lot in museums, in galleries.

  • There's a lot of surplus wealth that goes towards the arts.

  • But I want to suggest that in a way

  • our relationship to the arts is not going as well as it could be

  • and that some of the reason is that we haven't properly studied

  • how religions use art.

  • It's sometimes said that museums are our new cathedrals,

  • but in some ways,

  • I don't think they're quite doing what cathedrals did,

  • for various reasons.

  • One of the reasons why art isn't quite living up to its message,

  • or the claims we make for it,

  • is that we're obsessed in the modern world

  • with that ancient... well, old 19th-century adage

  • which says that art should be for art's sake -

  • in other words, that a successful work of art

  • exists in its own realm, in the aesthetic world,

  • and that it shouldn't have an attempt to change society

  • or to have an impact directly on people.

  • It exists in art world,

  • in that special world called the world of art.

  • The other thing, the other piece of ideology

  • that surrounds the display and interpretation of art

  • is a veneration of mystery.

  • It's almost as though the more complex

  • and interesting a work of art,

  • the harder it will be to explain

  • what it's doing or what's going on,

  • and so nice people like you, when you go to a museum,

  • especially a museum of contemporary art,

  • one of the common feelings one comes away thinking is,

  • "What did that mean?"

  • And that's often a feeling you often get

  • reading museum catalogues, which often seem

  • as though they're translated from the German,

  • even when they're not, so...

  • So there's a kind of air of mystery

  • and there's an air of removal from daily life.

  • Now, this is not at all what religions believe

  • when it comes to art.

  • When it comes to art, religions are very simple

  • about what art is for.

  • Art is for two things.

  • Firstly, it's to remind you of what is good -

  • how you should live, the good way to live -

  • and secondly, it's to remind you of what's bad -

  • what's unfortunate, what's sad, what's away from fulfilment.

  • So that's the dual mission of art.

  • In other words, art is didactic, and it's a piece of propaganda.

  • All religious art is propaganda.

  • Now, when people hear the word 'propaganda',

  • it's never too far till somebody thinks of Hitler

  • and somebody else thinks of Stalin.

  • So in saying this, I'm aware that I'm on a slippery slope.

  • But I want us to try and hang on

  • to somewhere in the middle of that slippery slope.

  • We don't necessarily have to tumble down to the bottom.

  • And I think religions show us how.

  • Because if you look at the history of religious art,

  • the sort of things

  • that propaganda has been made on behalf of

  • have often been some quite nice things.

  • I mean, take something like Rembrandt's

  • Christ crossing the Sea of Galilee.

  • Beautiful painting. A piece of propaganda. On behalf of what?

  • The fascist state? Or, you know, the worker's paradise? No.

  • It's a piece of propaganda on behalf of courage.

  • It's trying to remind you of what courage is like,

  • and it's trying to instil in you

  • a sense of how you might be more courageous

  • by looking at the example of some courageous guys

  • who were crossing the Sea of Galilee one day, and...

  • Now, why do religions think that we need this kind of art?

  • Why are they calling up people like Rembrandt?

  • The reason for religions doing this

  • is that they think that there are all sorts of ideas

  • that we have in our minds

  • that basically lie dormant and ineffective

  • until they are reawakened by a work of art.

  • Art turns cliches into things that we actually believe in

  • and can act by.

  • So we all believe, for example, that it's nice to be nice

  • and that we should be good and we should love our children,

  • we should love the environment and all these things,

  • and we know all of this, and it's all wise and it's all true.

  • The problem is we don't really tend to act on it

  • until a great work of art comes along,

  • and I'm thinking, you know, it could be a film by Tarkovsky

  • or 'Hey Jude' by the Beatles, or whatever it is,

  • and suddenly you think, "Oh! That's what love is."

  • Or, "That's why I should be," you know,

  • "caring about the world or loving my children

  • "or trying to be more tolerant of my partner,"

  • or whatever it is.

  • We are reminded in a visceral, active sense of truths

  • which would otherwise have left us cold,

  • and that's why religions believe

  • that you need some artists to hand,

  • and that's why they've had the phone numbers

  • of some of the greatest artists in the world at all times.

  • They knew who to call, and they knew the art needed to be good,

  • 'cause if it was gonna be bad art,

  • the message wasn't gonna get across.

  • Now, just think about how different that is

  • to the way the modern world works.

  • You know, in the modern world,

  • there are people of ideas, right,

  • and, you know, they write their books and they do their things,

  • but do they ever call up,

  • you know, the great artists, the great filmmakers?

  • No, not really - you know, the artists are in one corner

  • and the sort of thinkers are in another,

  • but the way you have to conceive of religion

  • is it's joined up - the thinkers are in touch with the artists.

  • The thinkers might be telling the artists what to produce.

  • Very, very different from a kind of modern mindset.

  • But I think it may be just very important to do that.

  • There may be something quite essential

  • about animating our beliefs

  • by using the works of the great artists.

  • I suppose what religions are really saying

  • is that the aesthetic realm is not just superficial,

  • that the way things look and feel and sound

  • isn't just something over there

  • that belongs to a kind of 'House & Garden' magazine

  • or, you know, 'Interior Design' or some sort of trivial thing.

  • It's right at the centre of importance,

  • and it's important because we, as humans,

  • respond to sensory material.

  • I remember a few years ago, I was looking to get married,

  • and I thought, "Right, well, how am I gonna do this?

  • "Where shall I go, as a nonbeliever?"

  • And I thought, "Right, well,

  • "I'm not gonna go to a church or anything like that,

  • "because, you know, that would be wrong."

  • So I looked on the website of an organisation

  • called the British Humanist Association,

  • and I clicked on their website,

  • and from the moment the screen came up,

  • I thought, "Something's a bit wrong here,"

  • 'cause it looked like it had been done by a 12-year-old,

  • the website - you know how html goes wrong and it's a bit wonky?

  • Anyway... And then I thought, "I'll keep going."

  • And then there was a bit which said, "Find your own celebrant",

  • a guy who's going to help you to celebrate,

  • so I clicked on the celebrant, and some pictures came up.

  • And I looked at the pictures of the possible celebrants

  • I was gonna entrust to this special day,

  • and I thought, "Ooh, dear."

  • And partly, I thought,

  • "Their clothes! They're so badly dressed!"

  • And then I'd read their prose that they put, and I thought,

  • "Ooh, there's so many spelling mistakes.

  • "And it's not very eloquent."

  • Now, this could sound sort of bitchy and superficial,

  • but I don't mean it to - I don't mean it to.

  • What I'm trying to say is that if we're to make a viable world

  • beyond religion,

  • we're gonna have to study

  • what religions get up to very carefully,

  • and we're gonna have to learn that hats are really important

  • and shoes are really important and clothes are really important

  • and the way that language is put together is really important,

  • and we can't just say, "Right, well," you know,

  • "there were some errors in the tales of the loaves and fishes,

  • "and Genesis doesn't quite stack up, so that's enough."

  • We're gonna need to work a little bit harder,

  • and religions know this.

  • Let me move on a bit.

  • Something else. Moving on the buffet.

  • Something else that religions are very practised in

  • and sort of intelligent about, and that is

  • that if you want to change the world, you've to get organised.

  • Right? You've got to group together with other people.

  • It's not a coincidence that the major religions are also known

  • as organised religions.

  • In other words, it's not just a chap or two with a good idea.

  • It's a group of people who've coalesced

  • and have shown discipline around a set of ideas.

  • Now, it's interesting - when you look at the modern world,

  • when you look at people who are interested

  • in what one could broadly call the soul...

  • I'm using that in a completely non sort of supernatural way -

  • the soul, the inner part, you know, the kind of...

  • ..the weighty, important stuff.

  • The people who are interested in the soul in the modern world

  • are basically lone practitioners.

  • You know, they're the poets in their bedrooms,

  • the writers in their bedrooms, you know, the guitar players,

  • the psychotherapists, the painters -

  • you know, they're all off in their little sheds,

  • in their little studios,

  • you know, doing their stuff, saving the world.

  • And...

  • In other words, the view is, if you care about the soul,

  • you're on your own, you're supremely individual,

  • and that's a legacy of that romantic world view

  • that crops up in the 19th century which says,

  • you know, "If you've got an important contribution

  • "to make to humanity, speak alone with your own voice.

  • "Only the singular lone voice is important.

  • "Don't learn to read a spreadsheet.

  • "Don't group with other people."

  • You know, "Speak purely from the mountain top."

  • So that's the kind of modern world view.

  • Now, religions differ a lot. They are organised.

  • They are multinational. They have rules on how to behave.

  • They are branded. They're the leaders in branding.

  • And they show extreme coherence in a lot of areas.

  • Now, the only thing that's comparable

  • to religions in the modern world

  • is multinational corporations.

  • If you look at the structure

  • of multinational corporations and religions,

  • they're eerily similar -

  • branded, multinational, disciplined, etc.

  • Lots and lots of similarities.

  • Except they do, of course, slightly different things.

  • The religions are in the soul space.

  • They're doing the kind of soul bit, feeding our soul.

  • And the multinationals tend to be in the...

  • ..you know, more physical space.

  • They're, you know, shipping us cement or selling us pizzas

  • or shoes or whatever it is,

  • so in the modern world, we've got, you know,

  • the soul-focused religions, organised, well organised,

  • you've got the corporations that are well disciplined and focused

  • but they're selling us shoes,

  • and on the other hand,

  • you've got the poets and the psychotherapists

  • in their bedrooms.

  • And this seems kind of striking and, I think, a real loss.

  • No wonder, in a way,

  • that religions continue to be so powerful

  • and that the messages of the very good ideas

  • that secular society has come up with

  • often don't get through to us.

  • You know, the revenues of the Catholic Church last year

  • were $97 billion.

  • When people scratch their heads and go,

  • "Why is it that Catholicism

  • "remains a very powerful force in the world

  • "when some of their arguments don't make much sense?"

  • Well, you know, look at that $97 billion for a moment at least.

  • They're very organised.

  • They're pooling together the intelligence

  • of large numbers of people

  • and they're showing great discipline.

  • In other words, I'm trying to suggest

  • that if in the secular world,

  • the ideas that we fervently believe in

  • are to have real traction in the world,

  • we may have to think about organisation,

  • that organisation seems key to getting things across,

  • and that the lone practitioner, however pure he might be,

  • however untainted by commerce and fellowship with others,

  • is ultimately a very, very weak voice in a lonely world.

  • We tend to assume that if you want to change the world,

  • just, you know, write a book and then that all will be fine.

  • But religions are not just books.

  • They may have books at their centre that are very important,

  • but they're also about schools and they're about music

  • and they're about eating and they're about calendars

  • and they're about funeral services -

  • they're about all of this sort of stuff.

  • And to think you can move on by just, you know,

  • chucking a few wisely aimed arguments against them

  • and the whole edifice will collapse,

  • dream on - of course it won't.

  • Right. I want to move on to just a few other things on the menu.

  • Let's look at community.

  • One of the things that religions

  • are indisputably rather good at doing

  • is creating communities, turning strangers into friends,

  • and one of the things

  • the secular world clearly has a problem with is community.

  • I think the modern world is lonely.

  • We're all hunting for that one very special person.

  • That's how we start off, you know, in adolescence,

  • in our early 20s -

  • we're searching for that one very, very special person

  • who can spare us a need to mix with everybody else.

  • So we're all kind of selfishly looking for that special person,

  • but the group... the group is...

  • You know. We don't really like the group.

  • Now, I think it's actually very important to live in groups,

  • and I think a lot of our neuroses and anxieties

  • comes from the fact that we're not living

  • in the sufficiently group way.

  • Now, don't get me wrong - in the modern city,

  • in Sydney, in Melbourne, in London -

  • there are all sorts of gatherings all the time

  • of people, like tonight and everywhere,

  • places where you can hang out with people.

  • There are bars and restaurants.

  • So for someone to come along and go, you know,

  • "We're lonely. There's no-one around,"

  • that's clearly wrong - there are lots of people.

  • The problem is we don't talk to them, ever,

  • unless I perform an exercise

  • which could both be embarrassing and quite fun,

  • but I don't think I will,

  • of doing that thing that many religions do,

  • which is asking everybody

  • to introduce everybody to each other

  • by turning to the left and the right,

  • but I won't do that quite yet - we'll see how it goes.

  • You guys are not gonna get to know each other.

  • You're just gonna file out and that's it.

  • Now, religions regularly take people into a space

  • and they basically perform a host function.

  • They introduce them to each other.

  • They introduce us to each other.

  • Now, I think below the surface, we're not as grumpy as we look.

  • You know, when we're walking round, we're all a bit grumpy,

  • you know, sort of look a bit strange, you know, and...

  • And the reason is we're scared.

  • We're scared of rapists and we're scared of murderers

  • and we're just scared of all the bad people we've read about

  • and paedophiles and nasty people, so...

  • That's why we've got to be very careful as we wander around.

  • But deep down, under a layer, we're actually quite friendly.

  • Most of us are friendly.

  • The problem is that it normally takes, you know, a flood, a fire

  • or a snowstorm until anyone talks to anyone else,

  • 'cause it's just too sort of embarrassing.

  • Someone did say to me, "That's just 'cause you're in England,"

  • but I suspect it's a little bit...

  • ..it's a little bit everywhere.

  • Anyway.

  • So, what do we need to bring out our sociability?

  • What we need is a good host.

  • Now, you know the host from a party, right, so, you know...

  • Again, quite English.

  • When you go to a typical English party with a bad host,

  • everybody's standing like this, looking quite glum,

  • sheepishly, with their drink,

  • and it's all quite stiff and quite awkward,

  • but if there's a good host, they'll go,

  • "You meet so-and-so, you meet so-and-so, talk to so-and-so,"

  • and suddenly the party is going.

  • Now, writ large, without any disrespect,

  • religions are hosts in their societies.

  • They introduce people, they bring people in a room

  • and they say, "It is safe to talk to people here."

  • It's a very basic thing.

  • It doesn't require belief in the supernatural.

  • Many people will often say,

  • "Look, I've kind of lost my faith a while ago,

  • "but I do love those services.

  • "I do love the after, you know, bit

  • "when you have the tea and the biscuits, that kind of thing."

  • And they're not wrong. You know, why are they like this?

  • Because there's not much else going on.

  • Some people say, "What about the football club

  • "or," you know, "the swimming club, or the pub?"

  • And the problem is that not everybody likes swimming

  • or football or anything else,

  • that we don't all belong to these specialised hobby groups.

  • The modern world has hobby groups,

  • whereas religions have communities,

  • and the difference between a hobby group and a community

  • is that in a community, a group of people are gathered

  • who have, in a sense, nothing in common with each other.

  • They look weird to each other.

  • You know, they're different races, ages, colours, etc,

  • and maybe they're a bit scary-looking,

  • but the whole process, the kind of spiritual journey,

  • is to turn that alien person into a human being,

  • to discover the humanity below the surface,

  • and that seems like an incredibly

  • sort of valuable exercise that religions make us do.

  • Now... I'm really running on. So I'm gonna conclude.

  • Really, what I want to end by saying

  • is that even if you don't believe in anything,

  • as I don't believe in anything,

  • it really seems vital to learn enough about religion

  • that you can draw on those bits of it

  • that still seem to have an awful lot going for them.

  • You know, if you're in the world of community-building,

  • look at how religions build community.

  • If you're in the art world, look at how religions do art.

  • If you're an educator, look at how religions educate.

  • Ultimately, ultimately, and I want to end with this point,

  • ultimately, religions are far too complex, wise, rich, nuanced

  • to be abandoned simply to those

  • who actually happen to believe in them.

  • -(LAUGHTER) -They're for all of us.

  • They're for all of us, especially nonbelievers.

  • -Thank you very much. -(APPLAUSE)

  • Thank you.

  • But I did want to start with one question from Alison Badahoss,

  • who says to Alain, "Your latest book refers heavily

  • "to Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism

  • "but rarely mentions Hinduism or Islam.

  • "Why was that?"

  • Well, I knew from the start that this wasn't going to be a work

  • of comparative religion.

  • This wasn't going to be a work

  • where I kept comparing one religion to another.

  • If there is a comparison, it's between the secular world

  • and the world of religions,

  • and for this,

  • you don't necessarily need an infinite array of religions.

  • What matters is to get to know some religions really well.

  • And they double themselves up in many, many areas.

  • So I didn't want another Abrahamic religion,

  • having already got Judaism and Christianity,

  • and I was very fascinated by Buddhism,

  • which I didn't know that much about

  • and now know a little bit more about,

  • so it was a personal choice,

  • and, well, almost to say, one shouldn't read too much into it.

  • We had some wonderful questions from Oliver Damien,

  • who says, "Do you consider that the cultural means

  • "atheists can borrow from religion

  • "will be as potent

  • "if they are divorced from the bedrock of a firm belief

  • "in a supernatural reality,

  • "which, arguably, is what gives them their power?"

  • Look, I think this is an anxiety on the part of many.

  • I mean, when I was in London, I did a debate

  • with a Catholic priest,

  • and he said to me, rather waspishly, I thought -

  • he said, "Look, you think you understand Bach, but you don't."

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • And he said, you know, "You think you've looked at Titian,

  • "but your eyes are closed."

  • And...

  • You know, and he said, you know,

  • "And you think you've read John Donne, but you haven't."

  • And I sort of started getting a bit depressed about this, and...

  • And then I thought, "Well, look,

  • "I don't know what you're getting out of all this stuff."

  • You know, "I don't know what the full-strength dose feels like.

  • "But as far as I'm concerned, it's not bad."

  • You know, "I'm really revving up there

  • "with the Mass in B minor by Bach."

  • You know, "It's doing something for me."

  • So I think it's always going to be possible

  • for believers to say to nonbelievers,

  • "You don't get it, do you?"

  • To which, as a nonbeliever, one can only say, "Perhaps,

  • "but I don't have access to the kind of sensory data you do,"

  • so all I can say is, it seems enough.

  • I think we can be getting on with quite a lot

  • and getting quite a lot out of cultural works

  • even without the supernatural structure

  • for which they were, indeed, once invented or created.

  • Can we go back briefly to your question about organisation

  • and your very funny reference

  • to the psychotherapists and artists in their bedrooms -

  • how do you think they could get out?

  • How could they get out? That's a big question.

  • Look, take something like psychotherapy,

  • which is really close to my heart.

  • In London, first of all, if you go and see a therapist,

  • people will still say, "Oh, I'm terribly sorry.

  • "How is your madness?"

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • And you want to say, "Look, it's not that bad.

  • "I'm just trying to, you know, get more out of life,"

  • but the dominant assumption - you are a marked person,

  • you're crazy.

  • And then when you call up a psychotherapist,

  • you shuffle along to your GP and you ask for a therapist

  • and you get referred and you dial a number in Hampstead

  • and then somebody picks up with a Hungarian voice

  • and goes, "Hello?"

  • And you think... "Hello. I'd like to make an appointment."

  • "Hello?" And the whole thing... And you sound...

  • You know, the whole thing is just intimidating and peculiar

  • and very, very odd.

  • And I contrast that with the priesthood.

  • You know, contrast that with the Catholic priesthood.

  • Now, after one's said every last horrid thing

  • about the priesthood and paedophile priests

  • and blah, blah, blah - all of which I'm well on top of,

  • very well aware of, don't forget for a minute -

  • the priesthood is still a rather interesting institution.

  • Really, what it is is a group of people

  • whose task is to minister us through the key stages of life,

  • from birth to death,

  • and to offer advice, consolation,

  • reflection, conversation, etc.

  • Now, what's the equivalent of that? We don't really have it.

  • The equivalent is probably psychotherapy.

  • But the psychotherapists are in their bedrooms,

  • so, what do we need to do?

  • Look, I mean, I'm sure there are some entrepreneurs in the room.

  • The question is not different from any other problem

  • requiring what one might call an entrepreneurial solution.

  • It requires that we band together the therapists,

  • that we give them a nice logo,

  • that we give them a coherent pattern, etc,

  • and that we learn why religions are effective

  • and we use that when designing something

  • that might work for the secular world.

  • So, taking inspiration and being creative.

  • I think, you know, we're still at the dawn of history.

  • Sometimes it can feel like

  • we're really, really at the end of everything,

  • the Romans, and all the rest of it, so long ago,

  • and we've tried everything, and the basic assumption is,

  • if it's a good idea, it's already been done,

  • and if anyone's suggesting now

  • anything at this very late stage,

  • it must be mad.

  • Let's reverse that. We're very much beginning things.

  • We're learning to live, many of us, now, for the first time,

  • the first generation without organised religion,

  • and we're stumbling around,

  • and we haven't necessarily got all the answers,

  • but I very much believe that this is a creative moment.

  • Do we have someone at microphone two?

  • WOMAN: I'm sorry, I'm a bit short.

  • Hello, Alain. I'm Sally.

  • It's a bit related to that last question.

  • I'm on the same page with you so far - that's great.

  • I'm just wondering, you know, what's the next step?

  • Where is this organisation going to come from?

  • Are you the next leader, or are you merely a prophet, or...

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • ..is somebody coming along?

  • And will this new group

  • include the phrase 'pick-and-mix' in the title?

  • Right. Well...

  • One of the funny things about publishing a book is that...

  • You know, some people say it's absolutely terrible, it's awful,

  • and sometimes you get emails going, "I've read your book

  • "and I'd like to sign up - where do I sign up?

  • "And I'd like to give you all my wealth

  • "and devote myself to you."

  • So this can happen... It hasn't. The last bit was exaggerated.

  • But it...it...it... Look, it can happen.

  • Look, my answer is, I think we are beyond

  • the world of organisation

  • at the level of neo-religious organisation

  • in the sense of, you know, one structure, with one head,

  • you know, directing things, etc,

  • so I believe in organisation, but in miniature organisation,

  • the organisation of the therapists

  • or the organisation of people who are going to bury people

  • or marry people appropriately, etc.

  • There's lots to be done, and there's lots to be organised,

  • but I don't think the creation of a new papacy

  • with a secular pope

  • is on the cards or is in any way desirable.

  • We live in a wiki world where truth is multiple,

  • where we're fiercely individualistic,

  • and insofar as we do organise ourselves,

  • it's in relatively spontaneous clusters,

  • and I think the answer is...

  • Look, my book is full of suggestions

  • of things that need doing

  • in the secular world, everything from building community

  • to, you know, organising the therapists,

  • to reorganising travel - there's a whole host of sort of ideas.

  • And my hope is that, you know, reading the book,

  • someone might think, "Oh, that's a good idea.

  • "I might have a go doing that."

  • And they would organise themselves and... You know.

  • So it's not like it's gonna be a central thing.

  • It might just be something that you're inspired by.

  • Or someone might say, "Look, my idea's not in this book at all,

  • "but there's something that's kind of analogous

  • "that will inspire me,"

  • so I'm aiming to seed inspiration

  • and get the reader working, by all means, organised,

  • but no new papacy.

  • And we were so looking forward to the shoes and the hats.

  • -At microphone number four. -MAN: Thank you.

  • Mr De Botton, you spoke about universities and their role.

  • I'm just interested to know where you think

  • they should be really filling a similar purpose in society

  • to what you've spoken about,

  • turning people into grown-up citizens,

  • because universities only are going to educate in Australia

  • about a third of our citizens.

  • What about the other two-thirds?

  • Shall they stay not grown-up,

  • or is there something else for them?

  • Well, first of all, I'd say a third is not bad,

  • so at least if we got one-third right,

  • that would be a really good start -

  • we could then work on the next two-thirds,

  • so, you know, looking at the first third,

  • institutions of higher education are failing there,

  • as far as I'm concerned, in delivering that promise,

  • and, as I was trying to suggest in my talk,

  • they're partly failing because

  • they have a non-instrumental view of learning.

  • They do not believe that there is a particular purpose

  • that can be frankly stated in a few words

  • to studying literature or philosophy or theatre

  • or the arts or whatever,

  • the importance...

  • You know, one tends to get tautologies -

  • "It's important because it's important."

  • And anyone who asks why is either a government official

  • trying to reduce funding

  • or a vulgar, nasty person, an accountant,

  • who's trying to make life meaner,

  • rather than just someone who genuinely wants to know,

  • so that's the one-third.

  • As for the other two-thirds, well, let's look at how

  • the dominant mood of society is set.

  • It's set through the mass media.

  • And the interesting thing about the mass media is

  • that we've abandoned that to the free market.

  • The secular world believes in the free market

  • in all sorts of areas, including the world of ideas,

  • and the underlying reason for that free market

  • is a belief deep down that a lot of what you read and hear

  • doesn't really matter,

  • so, you know, if you've spent an hour driving

  • and you've looked at a billboard selling you chocolate

  • and another billboard selling you a holiday in Thailand

  • and a third billboard selling you a 4x4,

  • doesn't really matter, it's not gonna sink in,

  • it's not really important.

  • That's the kind of official thing -

  • it doesn't really matter what we see and read.

  • All that matters is... Well, we're such grown-ups.

  • Of course we know what we want.

  • We're not gonna get sidetracked by an advert. You know.

  • Now, of course, if you think about that,

  • of course, we are gonna get sidetracked by an advert,

  • but, then, that's really tricky

  • for the governments to take on board,

  • 'cause if we're gonna get sidetracked by an advert,

  • that means there shouldn't be any advertising,

  • which is a real nuisance if you're relying on tax dollars

  • to keep things going,

  • so suddenly, you're in a really tricky political area

  • where commercial propaganda, if you like,

  • turns out to have quite a big impact,

  • and the question as a society we have to try and work up is,

  • in the so-called free market of ideas,

  • what ideas do we want out there?

  • Is it right that the only people who can pay for a billboard

  • are certain corporations with certain intentions on us?

  • And do we want to level that playing field?

  • And I guess I'd just like to draw your attention to the way

  • that religions are very, very concerned with public space.

  • They know that public space affects the inner being.

  • In the secular world, we think public space

  • can be sold off to the highest bidder

  • and it doesn't really matter.

  • Religions think, no, public space influences private space

  • and you've got to watch it carefully.

  • We'll go to microphone three and then we will turn around

  • and talk to this gentleman here.

  • So microphone three.

  • Thank you very much. My name's Nicholas.

  • And can I say thank you very much to Alain de Botton?

  • I was reading you when I was 16,

  • and it's been a long time coming -

  • I'm glad I got to hear you speak.

  • Now, you know, I completely agree with your first premise,

  • that, you know, atheism is right and that there isn't a God

  • and that, you know, we should all consider how to live.

  • The problem with trying to find

  • an atheistic institution, in my mind,

  • is that the religions always have an advantage

  • in that they have one central source of authority.

  • You know, once you take your central premise

  • that there isn't a God,

  • how to live can become very interesting.

  • You can have more relativists, who believe that, you know,

  • we can go over and live in carrots and kill people,

  • and then you can have people who believe

  • in Kant's golden rule,

  • and so having a group where you can discuss how to live

  • within different frameworks

  • becomes a lot more complicated because, you know,

  • in religions, you at least have one framework to work with.

  • Yep. I think...

  • I think that's a really good question

  • and a really good anxiety

  • because it's an anxiety right at the heart of modern society.

  • We live in a world of moral relativism.

  • And what is moral relativism?

  • Moral relativism is the fear that any assertion

  • could be shot down from another side,

  • so, you know, "Look, I don't believe in eating babies,

  • "but maybe you believe in eating babies,

  • "so we'd better watch out.

  • "I believe that it's fine to," you know, "hit children,

  • "but maybe," you know, "you don't,"

  • so we've got to be very, very careful

  • about saying any things - we might upset somebody.

  • And anything that you say might get you back the retort,

  • "Who are you to tell me what to do?"

  • Now, my secret conviction is

  • that there's an awful lot of agreement -

  • there's, in fact, far more agreement than disagreement.

  • And rather than imagining that once religion has disappeared,

  • we can't agree on anything

  • and we're just left in this complete moral vacuum,

  • we don't know what to do, what to believe or who to trust.

  • Actually, if you gather a group of Australians,

  • like everyone in this hall tonight,

  • and if you said to them,

  • "OK, let's take a poll about what people believe,"

  • I would suspect that there would be enormous congruence

  • around some central beliefs.

  • I think that people here will tend to believe in love,

  • in kindness, in generosity towards children,

  • in generosity towards strangers, in the environment, etc,

  • in equal opportunity, in fairness.

  • A lot of assumptions can be generalised from

  • and made to be at the heart of secular society.

  • We don't lack things to believe,

  • and we don't lack things that we can agree on.

  • What we lack is things

  • that will make the ideas that we already agree on stick

  • and effective at key moments of our journey through life.

  • (APPLAUSE)

  • So, basically, what this gentleman is saying

  • is that if you look beneath the surface

  • of many works of modern culture,

  • you will find a religious substructure.

  • Gentleman was talking about 'Lord of the Rings'. And...

  • Now, I agree

  • that if you look beneath many works of modern culture,

  • you do find...

  • You know, if you follow the work of someone like Joseph Campbell,

  • you do see that there are these archetypes -

  • the hero, you know, the myth, the mother,

  • the return, the prodigal son, etc, etc.

  • These are our stories.

  • Now, sometimes religious people say, "Aha!

  • "This shows that we're right, because it shows

  • "that even though you guys think you are secular,

  • "in fact, you are still following our stories."

  • Now, as an atheist, I would flip that round, and I would go,

  • look, it doesn't mean to say that anyone is right.

  • It just means that there are some archetypes

  • in the human mind,

  • which religions have drawn on

  • and non-religions have drawn on, and so it goes.

  • I wouldn't privilege the fact that these myths

  • have cropped up perhaps first and foremost

  • within religious texts.

  • This seems to be more an accident of timing

  • than a feeling that this is divinely revealed.

  • MAN: Alright, good evening.

  • Thank you very much. That was a fascinating talk.

  • I've got a double-barrelled question

  • because I believe in getting my money's worth.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • I was interested to know whether there was a precedent

  • or if you were blazing a new trail

  • or whether there were any thinkers or philosophers

  • that you're aware of

  • that have explored this territory before,

  • and I was also curious to know about the reaction

  • from various religions

  • and perhaps some of the other classical pit bull atheists

  • such as Richard Dawkins,

  • if they had come out swinging against your blasphemous work.

  • -(LAUGHTER) -Yeah.

  • Well, to answer that,

  • there was, weirdly, a small cheer at my publisher, Penguin,

  • when Richard Dawkins did come out

  • and very grumpily said, "The whole thing's very unnecessary."

  • -(LAUGHTER) -And, you know...

  • "We're all OK as it is." So...

  • And in a way... Look.

  • In a way, it was interesting, because in the world view

  • of some of these more militant Oxford atheists,

  • the idea is that life

  • is a relatively easy business to get through, you know.

  • You know, you do your scientific research, you're at high table,

  • and, you know, things are basically OK,

  • and, you know, there are just lots of

  • sort of horrible thick people out there

  • who all the time, you know, they're just weeping at Mary

  • and believing in odd things,

  • and they just need to be set right with some solid reason.

  • And I think what they tend to underestimate is vulnerability,

  • and I think that's what, emotionally,

  • I have a problem with there.

  • We are clearly all vulnerable creatures,

  • and to try and persuade someone out of their religion

  • without paying attention to the vulnerability

  • and its role in their religiosity

  • seems, I think, a cynical ploy,

  • so, anyway, that's...

  • So the atheists, yes...

  • Certain kind of militant atheist has been out...

  • I received a wonderful email.

  • Someone said, "You have betrayed atheism,"

  • which seemed to me paradoxical, and...

  • But as for precedent in history, yes.

  • Look, there was one guy, called Auguste Comte,

  • the French 19th-century sociologist,

  • who, in the mid-19th century, analysed modern society

  • and decided that we were all gonna fall apart

  • and fall prey to mental disorders and anxieties

  • because the only thing that secular society

  • was gonna be living for

  • was work and romantic love,

  • and he believed that a society

  • fixated on work and romantic love

  • would be twitchy, and he didn't put it like that,

  • but, essentially,

  • would have a wide variety of nervous disorders,

  • and he believed that what he had to do was to invent a religion,

  • a secular religion,

  • that could help people to cope with their anxieties,

  • so he invented this religion

  • called the religion for humanity.

  • It was very, very batty indeed but quite touching.

  • It had at its centre a maternal figure,

  • who was actually Comte's girlfriend...

  • -(LAUGHTER) -And...

  • Although they weren't actually sleeping together.

  • It was very much unrequited love.

  • And he thought that by making her

  • head of this new religion, she would be grateful,

  • and indeed - I'm not making this up - indeed, she was,

  • and they did sleep together, but then she fell prey

  • to terrible nervous disorders

  • of the kind the 19th century produced,

  • and he went crazy and the whole experiment collapsed, but...

  • -(LAUGHTER) -Nevertheless...

  • Nevertheless, it's a fascinating thing,

  • and if ever you find yourselves in a big library,

  • look up Auguste Comte and his...

  • I mentioned him in my book,

  • because he's onto something rather interesting,

  • and he holds a place...

  • You know, lots of sociologists are aware of him,

  • and he never quite goes entirely out of fashion,

  • because he's touching a raw nerve

  • that I think we know has not yet been appeased

  • or kind of dealt with in the modern world.

  • Number two.

  • MAN: You may be familiar with the fact

  • that there is a small schoolyard tiff going on

  • in our capital city of Canberra today,

  • and I wondered, apart, perhaps, from shinier shoes,

  • what you feel our political leaders

  • may be able to draw from religion

  • to restore public faith.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • -Goodness. -(APPLAUSE)

  • Well, look.

  • Let me give you a non-religious answer, which is mine.

  • I think the fact you're having this squabble

  • is not a sign that Australia has reached a new low.

  • It's a sign of real privilege.

  • It's a sign that you guys have it good.

  • Because most countries can't afford this sort of behaviour.

  • (LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE)

  • So even though it's a little bit tedious

  • and a little bit peculiar,

  • enjoy - it's not gonna last long, they're gonna sort it out,

  • and have fun with it, yeah.

  • I think that's probably the most interesting response

  • to this whole thing that any of us are gonna hear.

  • Number three.

  • MAN: It's actually, I guess, a follow-up on that question.

  • If attendance at church collapsed in the 19th century,

  • in the late 20th century, the similar collapse is in

  • belonging to a political organisation.

  • What do you think...

  • Do you think politics played the role of religion

  • in the meantime, between the 19th century and now,

  • and is now failing to do that, for a secular world?

  • And do you think

  • that the last bastion of that politics as religion

  • is in the American presidential kind of system?

  • ALAIN: Well, look,

  • I think that one of the great innovations

  • and wisdoms of Christianity

  • was the separation of Church and state,

  • at least for a time and in its original form -

  • "Render unto Caesar," etc -

  • the idea that there is earthly power and spiritual power.

  • And even in a secular context, that distinction continues,

  • and I think that most people, in Australia, in the UK,

  • in many modern societies,

  • take it really badly when we feel

  • that power, that political power,

  • is edging into the world of religion -

  • in other words, the world of ethics,

  • the world of the soul, etc.

  • When David Cameron responded to the London riots last summer,

  • he started making comments in praise of personal morality

  • and discipline, etc, and the world went nuts -

  • no-one allowed a politician to say that sort of thing.

  • We don't want our politicians to do that.

  • That's a very ingrained thing.

  • So, by all means, organise and use a public voice

  • for issues of morality and ethics, etc,

  • but I think the ability to join up political power

  • with moral authority...

  • At this point, I probably will invoke Hitler and Stalin,

  • which I was resisting doing.

  • I do think that at that point, the slope gets really steeper,

  • so I am not for giving a moral authority to Julia or Kevin.

  • That said, I did give...

  • Two nights ago, I gave my book to Julia.

  • We were staying in the same hotel -

  • the Park Hyatt in Melbourne.

  • And I went to give her my book.

  • So we'll see what happens.

  • (LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE)

  • And we thought that she was staying up late at night

  • making a phone call.

  • I just wanted to ask...

  • I think that the way that you explained

  • how secular society can draw from

  • the traditionalism and the repetitiveness of religion

  • is...is a really good thing - I love how you explained that.

  • But I also want to ask, do you think that there's a detriment

  • or a stagnation that comes from traditionalism

  • in an emerging society such as ours,

  • where our understanding's always changing

  • and, you know, we're learning new things all the time

  • about our world and our reality, and that's always shifting.

  • Do you think that that traditionalism

  • actually stagnates that...

  • ..that update or that shift in thinking or...

  • Like, a good example of that would have been

  • Galileo and his discovery of our place in the solar system

  • and how that was rejected by traditionalist structures,

  • but then, years later...

  • I think it's really good that you mentioned Galileo,

  • because that reminds us that insofar as

  • the modern world is addicted to novelty,

  • what's often driving that is science,

  • and I absolutely believe that's right,

  • that science needs to march forward, and, you know,

  • if we were to keep repeating the experiments of Pythagoras,

  • we'd be lost,

  • so I don't believe in repetition

  • in the scientific or technological area,

  • but there is a real distinction between that area

  • and what you could more broadly call the humanistic area.

  • This crops up in...

  • You know, not to knock the universities,

  • but let's have one more knock.

  • You know, the way in which the universities are arranged

  • is you get scientists in universities

  • who are trying to advance knowledge

  • and they're trying to push ahead and do new things all the time,

  • and they have fantastic discoveries,

  • they're inventing retinas and growing toenails, etc,

  • and doing wonderful things.

  • And then there are the guys in the humanities departments,

  • and they think, "We'd better pretend to be like scientists,

  • "so we're going to invent a new discovery, and we're gonna...

  • "..a new interpretation of Wordsworth

  • "and a new interpretation of a letter in Keats

  • "or," you know, "the way that Proust used the alphabet

  • "or the way that Joyce used the full stop,"

  • you know, "a new, a vital discovery

  • "in the world of the humanities," you know.

  • This is the way that the modern university works.

  • And I think most people who've looked at that close-up think,

  • "Well, that's actually nonsense,"

  • because in this area, unlike in science,

  • repetition is possible because our psyches, as we all know,

  • don't show dramatic evolution minute by minute.

  • The truths that we need to feed our souls

  • are relatively stable ones.

  • We keep coming back to some of the same themes.

  • And if you look, indeed, at the history of literature,

  • they circle - things are already circling.

  • The great artists are circling. We're all circling.

  • And that's OK. So I would make that distinction.

  • MAN: Is Facebook part of the problem,

  • or is it part of the potential solution?

  • Is Facebook part of the problem,

  • or is it part of the potential solution?

  • Well, I don't think it's, in itself, part of the solution,

  • because it's a typical modern instrument

  • in grouping people together by what they like,

  • by their personality, and as I tried to point out,

  • what's interesting about religion as a community

  • is that it's literally a group of strangers

  • who might not like each other very much.

  • In all religions,

  • there's an idea of hospitality to the stranger, literally -

  • someone you think, "Ooh! I don't want to sit with that person.

  • "They look horrid!"

  • Nevertheless, you're supposed to sit down with them,

  • and even though they're a bit smelly, maybe,

  • or they speak a foreign language or they just look a bit odd,

  • the point is that you undergo a journey

  • to see the humanity in that person,

  • and I don't think Facebook's there.

  • (LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE)

  • I'm very glad we did get to the Facebook question,

  • but to conclude, one of the wonderful questions

  • that came in via email

  • was, "Where do you draw the line?

  • "What are the aspects of religion

  • "that we should steer clear of?"

  • Well, look...

  • I think, you know, there are some obvious things -

  • cruel abuses and violence and all the things that...

  • ..you know, that we know about, and that, you know,

  • the Inquisition and the Crusades, blah, blah, blah.

  • But I think, more interestingly, I, as an atheist,

  • there are moments when I have to draw the line with friends

  • who believe or who are spiritual in some way,

  • and often it goes like this.

  • People will say things like, you know...

  • We're standing outside. It's a beautiful night.

  • Looking at the stars.

  • And I say, "Gosh, it's amazing," you know,

  • "One feels so small under this giant cosmos,"

  • and they'll go, "Yeah," you know, "absolutely, we do."

  • And then they'll say, "Just...it makes you think

  • "that there's something there."

  • And at that point, I go, "No. Not really. Not really."

  • And I think that's the moment of difference. So...

  • But by that time, one's...

  • There's a lot of friendship to be had up to that point.

  • -You've enjoyed the moon. -We can enjoy the moon together.

  • Anyway. Thank you.

  • -(APPLAUSE) -Thank you very much.

  • Thank you. Thank you.

  • Thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

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