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  • Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business

  • and life you love.

  • Today you are in for such a treat because we have one of my favorite writers of all

  • time on the show.

  • Cheryl Strayed is the author of the number one New York Times bestseller Wild, Tiny Beautiful

  • Things, Brave Enough, and Torch.

  • Her books have been translated into 40 languages.

  • Wild was the first selection for Oprah’s Book Club 2.0 and made into an Oscar nominated

  • film.

  • Cheryl’s essays have been published in The Best American Essays, the New York Times,

  • The Washington Post Magazine, Vogue, Salon, The Sun, Tin House, and elsewhere.

  • She’s the co-host of the Dear Sugar radio podcast and lives in Portland, Oregon.

  • Cheryl, thank you so much for being here.

  • Thank you for having me, I’m thrilled.

  • Yes.

  • So when we met at Super Soul Sessions, I was just

  • Oprah introduced us.

  • Yes, which is a big deal.

  • Yeah, it’s a nice start for us.

  • And I knew having you on MarieTV was going to be just exciting.

  • So let’s take it back, way back.

  • You didn't grow up in a household of writers.

  • No, I didn't.

  • How early did you know that you wanted to be a writer?

  • Very early.

  • I mean, soon after I learned how to read, when I was about six.

  • I… you know, I fell in love with books, but in particular I had one experience that

  • I read this one book, it was a chapbook of little poems.

  • There were watercolor pictures.

  • It was the 70s and so everyone was into these little sort of watercolor chapbooks.

  • And each little poem described one aspect of the beauty of nature.

  • And I remember very distinctly it was the first epiphany of my life that I just was

  • so struck, so pierced, truly, by the beauty that somebody could create simply by words

  • on the page.

  • You know, I appreciated those pictures, but it was the words that transported me.

  • And, you know, it was one of those very early ideas.

  • I certainly at that point didn't think, “This means I want to be a writer.”

  • But as I grew up and became a writer I very much remember that as the moment that I became

  • aware of this thing that I can only describe as a calling.

  • Did you ever think to yourself, like in your teenage years, oh, I could potentially do

  • another career?

  • Or was something in your heart always writer?

  • You know, what I thought is that I absolutely had to do another career.

  • When I was growing up, I didn't have any idea that I could actually make a living off of

  • writing books and I don't know exactly how to explain that except to say that even though

  • I loved literature, I felt that the people who made those books were people who were

  • so distant from who I was.

  • Many of them, you know, many of those books that I was assigned in high school, just like

  • you, you know, they were by dead white men, essentially.

  • They were created somewhere in a land, in a time far off.

  • And so I never imagined that I would grow up and be able to make my living that way.

  • It was always the thing I would do because I was called to do it, because I was passionate

  • about doing it.

  • And then I would earn my living in some other way.

  • And I remember when I was in high school I was always a feminist and I was one of, you

  • know, I subscribed to Ms. magazine.

  • And I remember at one point reading this story that was about Joyce Carol Oates and I was

  • so struck by it because I was like, wow, there’s a woman, she’s living among us, and she’s

  • writing books.

  • I’d never heard of Joyce Carol Oates, but I was fascinated by this profile of her.

  • And it was the first glimmer of an idea that I had maybe I could be a writer.

  • And then when I went to college and started to take English classes and some of my professors

  • were teachers and authors and, you know, and really they opened that door for me of possibility.

  • Isn’t that interesting?

  • That I think for all of us and for so many women too, it’s like we need to see someone

  • do it.

  • Absolutely.

  • Modeling, right?

  • I mean, I think that’s why, you know, it was so powerful when Barack Obama was elected

  • president.

  • We suddenly all became aware of, you know, not only the historic moment of that, but

  • what that would mean to children of color all over the world to see him become the president.

  • And, you know, I think the same thing with Hillary Clinton.

  • I think that those things are really powerful in big and small ways.

  • I mean, you know, I’m not being hyperbolic when I say that I didn’t…

  • I couldn’t imagine what was possible until I could see that somebody else had done it.

  • Let’s talk about the realities of making a living writing.

  • So many people in our audience are creatives, theyre aspiring creatives.

  • Whether it is writing books or painting or starting their own business.

  • Take me back.

  • How did you earn a living in the early days?

  • What were you doing?

  • I did a bunch of different things.

  • So I… really when I graduated from college I was a double major in English, creative

  • writing, and women’s studies.

  • And I knew that I wanted to dedicate myself to writing.

  • I knew that this was going to be a years long apprenticeship.

  • It wasn't something

  • I never bought into this false notion that, like, I’ll just sit down and, you know,

  • spend the next 6 months writing a book and then that’s, you know, then I’ll be done.

  • I knew that it was going to be a long slog.

  • And so I decided to try to find work that would support me in my writing rather than

  • contradict those goals.

  • And for me that was becoming a waitress, because it was a job that I could walk in, do the

  • work, and do honest work, but not take it home with me.

  • You know?

  • And I knew that I feared that if I got a job, you know, that was in some ways fulfilling,

  • like I’d also worked as a newspaper reporter for a brief time in college and I loved it.

  • And I was writing and, you know, so I was sort of filling that need but I wasn’t doing

  • the real work that I wanted to do.

  • So I avoided sort of that work in my field, if you will, for a goodthe better part

  • of a decade.

  • And then, you know, I tired of waiting tables.

  • It made me feel diminished and sad.

  • But, you know, it was a great way to earn a living for a while.

  • And I would write when I wasn’t waiting tables and I would go back to work.

  • But then I thought, you know, I need to do some more meaningful work.

  • And I did a number of different things.

  • I started, you know, teaching writing because I’d started to publish a little bit.

  • I started also writing pieces for magazines because it was a way in some ways to begin

  • to feel like I was a real writer to get published.

  • One of the early decisions I made was to not focus on getting published, but to rather

  • focus on my craft, which I think was a very wise one.

  • But there did come a time that it was time to start reaching out.

  • I think that that’s such an important distinction.

  • So many people are in such a rush to monetize whatever the thing is that they are truly

  • passionate about, that they feel is their art.

  • And I don't think that I’ve ever heard anyone articulate, you know, I deliberately held

  • back and wanted to work on my craft.

  • And how did that feel for you?

  • Was it exciting to be able to just say I’m not gonna pressure myself to get this out

  • into the world?

  • Well, you know, so much about creative work and certainly about writing is, you know,

  • the way you survive is by, you know, running along at the speed of your own engine.

  • It’s not going to be because somebody from out here validated you.

  • Like, it reallywriting is very much generated from within.

  • I think any kind of art making or any kind of creative work, you have to ultimately be

  • doing it because you feel driven to do it, you feel passionate about doing it.

  • Youyoure engaged with something that feels important to you in your life.

  • And certainly in the arts what I can say is if what youre going to rely on is that

  • exterior validation, youre just not gonnayoure not going to get it.

  • Youre not gonna last long.

  • And so, you know, that decision was about learning, really learning how to keep faith

  • with my vision or my dream or my work.

  • And then, you know, once that became like actually that inner strength is what I drew

  • on to compel me every day forward through another day of trying to write something that

  • meant something to someone else, you know, once I really developed that muscle within

  • then when I did go into the world and people said nice things about my work, it was thrilling,

  • it was beautiful, but it wasn’t the thing that made me keep writing.

  • And I think, you know, youre so right about this.

  • I teach writing sometimes, or I certainly talk to a lot of people on airplanes and so

  • forth.

  • How do I write a book?

  • You know, what's your advice?

  • And the advice is always kind of depressing to people because the absolute only advice

  • I really truly have for somebody who wants a life as a writer is write.

  • Write.

  • And keep writing, and keep writing and see what happens.

  • It’s not about, like, go to this party or go to this conference.

  • And those things come up along the way.

  • Like, I do think at a certain point it’s important to start to meet people, meet your

  • tribe, meet people who are doing what youre doing, put yourself out there.

  • I think the most important thing is to learn how to make a home with the work that youre

  • doing, because then you have something to offer the world.

  • You know, a lot of people want to make that offering before theyve created anything.

  • Yeah.

  • Let’s talk about your rituals because I’m always fascinated by people who create any

  • kind of art, but especially writers.

  • Do you and had you developed a practice of writing every day?

  • I’ve also read you binge write.

  • I’m a binge writer.

  • I’m not an every day writer.

  • Not an everyok, so this is all so fascinating.

  • There’s a book that I love called The War of Art by Steven Pressfield and several other

  • books.

  • And some people that I know and theyre great writers, they do, they have this discipline,

  • they write every day.

  • So I’m curious, yeah.

  • Tell me about your binge writing.

  • Yeah.

  • It’s really interesting because for a long time I thought I’m a renegade.

  • I’m a bad writer.

  • I’m not a real writer because I’m not doing this thing that many times, you know,

  • this is the advice that writers are given.

  • Yeah.

  • If you don't write every day or most days, that means youre not a writer.

  • And that’s… if that’s true, I’m not a writer then.

  • You know?

  • And what I can say to you is what’s to me really important is, I use this phrase before,

  • keeping the faith, which to me is connected to discipline.

  • To say what really is meaningful for me, the work that’s meaningful for me, is writing.

  • And so I’m gonna find a way to do it.

  • And for some people thatwhat works for them is every day.

  • Yeah.

  • Verythere are certain stretches of my life, times in my life, where that’s what

  • I did.

  • You know, there were many times for 3 months in a row I wrote every day.

  • But there are also many times for 3 months in a row I didn't write a word.

  • And what I’ve found is when, like, I make an appointment with myself and I don't look

  • at each day.

  • I look at the calendar ahead.

  • And it’s been really helpful for me actually also to decide when not to write, because

  • I can look sometimes at my calendar and say, “I’m gonna be really busy for the next

  • month,” or, “I just gave birth to a child,” or, you know, I have to work really hard at

  • this other project because that’s important to me too.

  • And then I just put the writing aside and know that I’m not going to feel bad about

  • it, I’m not gonna get into some sort of shame loop about I haven’t written.

  • I tell myself youre not going to write now and then youre going to write then.

  • And then what I do is I make good on that promise.

  • That’s the other piece of it.

  • This isn’t about being, you know, using lazy excuses.

  • It’s not using this methodology in order to not write.

  • It’s actually the opposite.

  • It’s saying this is when I work best or when I can work best.

  • One of the most moving experiences I had, you know, I give so many talks about my books,

  • usually about Wild or Tiny Beautiful Things that, you know, the Dear Sugar column, and

  • so often people, the response they have to that is about the stories they tell me about

  • their own losses or their own struggles or how the book helped them in one way or another.

  • But I will say, one of the most moving comments I got after one of my talks is just during

  • the Q&A afterwards.

  • Somebody had asked me what my writing process was and I said about this binge writing.

  • Yeah.

  • And I said, you know, I don't write every day and sometimes I write once a month.

  • And this woman came up to me afterwards and she said, she was crying, and she said, “Thank

  • you so much.”

  • She said, “I have always felt like I wasn’t a writer.

  • I’m a single mom, I have 4 kids, and I can write once a month, the day my mom takes my

  • kids.

  • And I think youre the first person who told me that I can still say that I’m a

  • writer even though I only write once a month.”

  • And I just grabbed her and I was like, “You are absolutely a writer.

  • Because if you write once a month, guess what happens by the end of that year?

  • Youve written 12 days.

  • And I know you can do a lot of beauty in 12 days.

  • Because I’ve done it too.”

  • It’s a relief for me.

  • I’m one of those people, my audience knows this, I put a tremendous amount of pressure

  • on myself, and that is the writing every day thing.

  • You can start to hear, I can hear the voices in my own head.

  • Like, youre not really one.

  • Or I’ve even beat myself up over this one.

  • I wrote a book years ago but I haven’t written one in a while, but I write and produce this

  • show and I can sometimes hear the voices in my head going, “Oh, I’m not a real writer

  • because I’m not writing books like everyone else is.”

  • So I will echo that woman’s thank you for that.

  • And I know there are thousands of people watching this right now who are also thanking you for

  • that.

  • You know, it’s interesting to me, this idea what happens when were gentle with ourselves.

  • Like, that voice that you just talked about in your own head, it’s… that’s about

  • shame.

  • Yeah.

  • That’s aboutdo you work well from a position of shame?

  • Absolutely not.

  • I don't think anyone does.

  • But what about, you know, I think sometimes we have associated gentleness or tenderness

  • with a kind of slack or kind of letting you off the hook.

  • Yes.

  • And actually what I’ve found is only just when I’m gentle with myself can I actually

  • really let go and do the work.

  • To say, ok, it’s been hard to sit down at the computer.

  • I’m gonna forgive myself and move forward now.

  • And it’s not about shame, it’s about forgiveness, it’s about gentleness.

  • I think that’s really important when you think about a creative endeavor.

  • And that goes back to this idea I said about howif you are the engine, you know, of

  • your own dreams, if you are the only one who’s really gonna propel you forward down the path

  • in those ways.

  • Because you are.

  • Like, nobody’s going to come to you and say please make a show, please write a book,

  • please make a song or do a dance for us, or paint a painting for us.

  • Nobody’s… especially at the beginning.

  • You know, nobody for years did that for either of us.

  • Right.

  • Right?

  • And so you have to find, you know, you have to find that way to do it yourself.

  • And so maybe in some ways what I sort of subconsciously did is like, you know, how do I give myself

  • the gift of that?

  • And one thing I realized early on is I have to let shame out of my life.

  • Like, I cannot make shame part of my writing life.

  • So powerful.

  • So youve said, which is a perfect way to follow up with this conversation, “Writing

  • is hard for every last one of us, straight white men included.

  • Coal mining is harder.

  • Do you think miners stand around all day talking about how hard it is to mine for coal?

  • They do not.

  • They simply dig.”

  • That’s right.

  • So much of writing, I mean, I lovethe reason that that metaphor came to me is that

  • I think of writing, the word I use all the time is excavation.

  • And it feels like a literal excavating to me, you know, we begin with the empty computer

  • screen or the empty page and we are creating something out of absolutely nothing.

  • You know, even if youre writing nonfiction, even if youre writing about your life or

  • something that happened or something you know or think, you know, youre creating something

  • out of nothing.

  • And almost always that process entails then, you know, going beneath what you thought you

  • were going to write, and then beneath it again.

  • And then you show it to somebody to read and they say, “Well, what’s this about?”

  • and then you have to dig.

  • When I teach writing I make this

  • I put on this butcher paper in front of the room what I call kind of my literary lasagna.

  • And it’s like, you know, up here is the, you know, the top layer, the lovely cheese.

  • And thenso youre looking at it, a lasagna sideways, and you have to get all the way

  • down to that bottom layer to really do your work.

  • So speaking of your teaching, I noticed there are two questions that you pose to all of

  • your writing students, and I think that these questions are incredibly important for all

  • creatives.

  • Would you like me to read them?

  • Yes.

  • Ok, great.

  • So what’s the question at the core of your work and what question are you trying to answer

  • for others?

  • Yeah, that’s right.

  • Because I think especiallythis is true in fiction too, but it’s literally true

  • when youre writing about your own life or your own experiences is that, you know,

  • I think we almost always begin out of that place like that thing that were seeking

  • for ourselves.

  • Yeah.

  • And when you write memoir, when people talk about memoir in negative terms, it’s almost

  • always that they say it’s the form of narcissists.

  • Like, who would be interested in you?

  • Who would be interested in my childhood?

  • And the answer to that is, kind of, nobody.

  • And the artist’s job is to make it interesting.

  • And the ways that we make that interesting is that you can read about my childhood and

  • see your own in it, even if it’s totally different.

  • You know, even if you came from a different place or lived in a different time or, you

  • know, inhabit a very different reality.

  • And I think that that’s what I’m always striving for as a writer and a teacher when

  • I say, you know, what is that personal question at the core of your work and how does that

  • translate to the culture?

  • And, you know, just an example I can give you, in Wild, for years it’s my memoir,

  • it’s about my hike on the Pacific Crest Trail.

  • But it’s also very deeply about my grief.

  • I went to hike that trail because I honestly didn't know how to live without my mother.

  • I really felt I couldn't live without my mother.

  • And I think that all those years later when I wrote the book, I was still there.

  • I was like I was still wondering, how do I live without my mother?

  • How do I live without my mother?

  • Asking that over and over again.

  • And what I realized in the course of writing Wild, and actually what compelled me to write

  • Wild, is by examining that question in my own life in a memoir, what I was really examining

  • is how is it that we live with our losses?

  • How do we bear the unbearable?

  • How do we endure our suffering?

  • Because, you know, one thing I know about that is we do and also we all do.

  • You know, and so right there that translation goes from me and my loss about my mom, which

  • is a very particular and individual thing, and I’m going to tell you a story about

  • it.

  • But what I hope to tell, what I hope to tell really in that telling of that story is that

  • larger, you know, universal struggle that we all have about how we figure out how to

  • bear our losses.

  • And I also want to thank you for this because I still have my mom

  • I’m gonna totally cry.

  • Youre making my cry looking at you.

  • I just love her so much and your work has given me, like, an even deeper appreciation

  • for the time I have with her, so thank you for that.

  • Yeah.

  • That’s one of my favorite things, people telling me, you know, people who have living

  • parents say, “You know, I finished your book and I called my mom and I said thank

  • you.”

  • And let me tell you, there’s also an entire tribe out there of people who don't have their

  • moms.

  • They either don't have them because they died or they don't have them because they lost

  • them to drug addiction or mental illness or incarceration.

  • And those people come to me and feel recognized in the work too.

  • You know, that has meant more to me than, you know, all of the glorious, glamorous things

  • that have happened in response to that book.

  • And I think that’s the beauty of art and that’s the beauty of words and that’s

  • the beauty of vulnerability and sharing what is in your heart with others.

  • So thank you for that.

  • Thank you.

  • The power, too.

  • Yeah.

  • I mean, beauty and power.

  • When wewhen we say that art has power, that’s what we mean.

  • We mean your tears right now.

  • Yeah.

  • I wanna talk about something that you mentioned at your Super Soul Session, which is the paralyzing

  • pressure that we can often put on ourselves to do something great.

  • Right.

  • Especially when it comes to writing or our art or our businesses.

  • And how there was that time when you were in Massachusetts where it was almost you couldn't

  • do it.

  • Yeah.

  • You’d said

  • I was paralyzed by my own dream!

  • Yes.

  • Can you talk to that?

  • Yeah.

  • It’s reallyso much of the interesting stuff in life I think, you know, there’s

  • so much contradiction inherent.

  • On one hand I want to say, you know, dream big.

  • You know, aim high.

  • I’m an incredibly ambitious person and I always have been.

  • You know, I was the person, I said in that talk, I was the kid at 5 who’s like, no,

  • I’m going to be the first woman president.

  • You know, I’m gonna just, like, always go for

  • I’m gonna reach really, really hard and really high.

  • But there camewhich I think is wonderful.

  • I mean, it is in part what brought me here, Marie.

  • It’s how I got here with you today.

  • Right?

  • That ambition.

  • It also was the thing that I had to turn away from for a time of my life and I’ve learned

  • periodically to turn away from it.

  • I’m in a different moment of my life that I’ll explain in a moment.

  • That I also have to turn away from this ambitious side.

  • And that is to say, you know, when I was sitting there in Massachusetts at my little cottage

  • in Massachusetts trying to write my first book, I suddenly felt like I can't do this.

  • And what that was about is realizing I can’t sit here and make greatness.

  • What I can sit here and do is write one page and then another page and then another page.

  • And I don't really know what those pages are going to be in the world beyond me, and maybe

  • theyll be nothing.

  • And for me today to have to surrender this vision of me being, like, the great American

  • novelist was painful, but it’s the thing that allowed me to actually write my book.

  • You know?

  • It was

  • I realized I had to set aside those big dreams and those ambitions and all those things I’d

  • internalized and be humble and to just say I’m gonna do my best.

  • I don't know if anyone will like it and it’s absolutely none of my business if they do.

  • I mean, it’s just like I’ll do my best and I’m just gonna say, “Here’s my best,

  • world.”

  • You know, take it or not.

  • And that’s what we always are doing.

  • I mean, we thinkwe like to think otherwise.

  • That’s about like, you know, thinking that we can always control the outcome of everything,

  • but we don't really know.

  • You know?

  • When I was writing Wild, I had no idea that it was going to become a best seller.

  • I wouldn’t have written it any differently.

  • You know?

  • I wrote the same book I would have written if it were still in my drawer right now at

  • home.

  • Ok?

  • And so I think that’s a really important thing to remember.

  • And when I said earlier about how I’m kind of in this moment now in my life.

  • Yes.

  • Here I am for the first time writing a book that people are, like, waiting for.

  • You know?

  • When I wrote Wild I had published a novel, I had a nice little fan base, but it wasn’t

  • like there was some great clamor like, “When’s your next book?”

  • You know?

  • And now I do have that, that feeling of people being present in my mind as I write.

  • And I’ve had to just let it go.

  • I’ve had to say I don't know if this next book is going to be as good as Wild.

  • I don't know if people are gonna love it.

  • But the only thing I can do is write page after page after page.

  • One of my favorite quotes by Margaret Atwood, whose writing I love, she says, “A word

  • after a word after a word after a word is power.”

  • And I always try to remember that.

  • That my work, my job in trying to create power, is just putting one word after another word

  • after another word.

  • I want to shift to the after-Wild success.

  • And I want to talk about something that I don't know if a lot of folks picked up or

  • they may not have seen your follow-up interview with Oprah where you shared that Wild had

  • just come out, filmed the interview with Oprah.

  • So many people have this idea or this notion that if it’s Oprah or, you know, some other

  • television show, they have you on and all of a sudden financially youre a big success

  • and everything is ok, but that wasn’t the case.

  • Tell us about what your life was like in that.

  • Yeah.

  • It wasit was really one of the strangest experiences of my life.

  • The entire process of what happened with Wild, when it first was published in March of 2012

  • right out of the gate the first week it was out it was number 7 on the New York Times

  • bestseller list.

  • And I distinctly remember getting the call from my editor that my book had made the New

  • York Times bestseller list.

  • And I just thought this is the mountaintop.

  • You know?

  • Like, I have reached

  • I had not even really dared to imagine that.

  • You know?

  • I wanted that but I was like I’m not going to define myself by that kind of that measure

  • of success.

  • I’m going to define success in other ways.

  • This is all true.

  • I believe this sincerely.

  • But it’s also true that that was a really beautiful moment.

  • And I thought that it was the peak of what was going to happen.

  • But of course what happened is things kept going and going and then Oprah called and

  • I went on the Oprah show and, you know, the book sold and then the movie came out and

  • all of those great things.

  • But you're right, you know, that what happened along the way in addition to that success

  • is that my life changed.

  • I went from being this, you know, essentially the classic starving artist who had two little

  • kids, my husband is a documentary filmmaker and we were living hand to mouth.

  • And during that transition time when I was, you know, in the world as this incredibly

  • public success, I was also home and broke.

  • The month that Wild came out and was on that list, our rent check bounced.

  • And my husband texted me, I was on my book tour, and my husband texted me and said the

  • rent check bounced.

  • Why did it bounce?

  • And I texted him back because we don't have any money.

  • And we were so sad and alone because, I mean, we laughed about it too.

  • He called me then, I remember that we were saying to each other nobody knows this but

  • us.

  • And part of thatand, I mean, that’s part of the reason I talk about it.

  • Yes.

  • Because part of that, you know, we havewe have really, I think, bad ideas about money

  • as a culture.

  • You know, we flaunt wealth, but we don't speak realistically about what money is or what,

  • you know, especially in a, you know, the creative arts.

  • It’s like what does itwhat do you expect?

  • You know, what’s realistic?

  • It’s like this big secret that we want to keep from each other because it’s impolite

  • to talk honestly about money.

  • And so I think it’s important to just, you know, I’m proud to say, ok, yeah.

  • There was this time that I looked really successful to the outside world, but I was very much

  • still struggling financially.

  • And one of the most interesting things happened during that time.

  • Another writer who’s very successful, I won't name her because just in case she doesn't

  • want to be outed, who I’d never met got in touch with me and she saidand I hadn’t

  • shared any of this stuff with her.

  • She just saw that Wild was a success.

  • And she said, “Let me guess.

  • Everywhere you go with all of your friends they expect you to pick up the tab because

  • theyve all decided you're rich.

  • But you don't have any money.

  • Your credit cards are maxed out.”

  • And I was like I love you forever and ever.

  • Because I could sort of talk to her about that in that moment.

  • And so there was this real collision between, you know, who the world perceived me as in

  • that moment and what was really happening in my life.

  • And youve also shared, you know, the writing life doesn't move in a straight line.

  • That’s right.

  • And that no matter how many successes, and even though we do have some successes, rejection

  • still comes.

  • Yeah.

  • Well, and I mean, I think this is always true.

  • I’ve never

  • I’ve met so many successful people.

  • I’m friends with so many successful people.

  • And you know, one thing really pretty much across the board, no matter how grateful you

  • are for your success, how astonished you are that you had such good fortune, there’s

  • always something that you want that you didn't get.

  • Some award you were passed over for, some project that you undertook, you know, after

  • your success that was a failure or rejected or not as well received as other things.

  • You know, it’s reallyit isn’t a straight line.

  • I mean, not just in the creative arts.

  • I mean, I think in all of life that’s true.

  • And I think that’s actually a positive thing rather than a negative thing.

  • Can you imagine how awful we’d be at the end of our lives if it was all just, like,

  • an upward trajectory?

  • It’d get so boring and we would never grow.

  • That’s right.

  • I mean, so much of growthreally, this is the other thing.

  • Having met so many successful people, especially in these last 4 or 5 years, I always ask people

  • about their stories, their origin stories.

  • And really what they tell you about along the way are the things that they failed at,

  • the lessons they learned the hard way.

  • And those things really deeply contribute to our success.

  • I believe that absolutely.

  • There’s no way around that because they are the things that we remember.

  • They are the things that give us the opportunity to rethink, to alter our course, to be humble.

  • You know, I think that that humility is such a core piece of being able to succeed, which

  • really runs contrary to, I think, the American view of what, you know, how do you achieve

  • success?

  • Youre this arrogant blowhard, I won’t name names.

  • And that’s, you know, youre the boss.

  • You own the room.

  • Or even as we say, youre the man.

  • You know?

  • Which is, you know, I think a really false idea of what success looks like.

  • I agree with you 100%.

  • I’m shifting us to, you know, I love all of your books but Brave Enough, your quotes

  • Thank you.

  • So many I have clearly marked.

  • I want to read you one, but this is one that we love on our team and I think everyone loves

  • it as well.

  • Nobody’s going to do your life for you.

  • You have to do it for yourself.

  • Whether youre rich or poor, out of money or raking it in, the beneficiary of ridiculous

  • fortune or terrible injustice.

  • And you have to do it, no matter what is true, no matter what is hard, no matter what is

  • unjust, sad, sucky things have befallen you.

  • Self-pity is a dead end road.

  • You make the choice to drive down it.

  • It’s up to you to decide to stay parked there or to turn around and drive out.”

  • That’s right.

  • That’s right.

  • And I think it’s ok to drive down those dead end roads sometimes.

  • What’s not ok is getting stuck there.

  • You know, I think that because the only person youre harming with staying in that mode

  • of self pity is yourself.

  • You know.

  • There’s absolutely, you know, we are responsible for our lives, as I said.

  • I mean, I’ll just, like, paraphrase the quote.

  • Yeah.

  • And I think I learned that in so many different ways over the course of my life.

  • Howwhy does that quote resonate for you?

  • I think because I’ve always grown up feeling like I’ve gotta take care of myself.

  • And there is a beautiful side to that, which is self-reliant.

  • And I think the underbelly of it, for me at least as an individual, is always resistance

  • to ask for help.

  • But there’s something about that just really owning no one’s gonna do it for you.

  • And I think it’s a good message for all of us to hear that we can pull ourselves up

  • by our bootstraps and make things happen.

  • I also wanted to shift into, you know, as Dear Sugar, you field thousands and thousands

  • of questions.

  • And it’s part of what we do here on MarieTV.

  • We have thousands of questions that people write into us.

  • One of the themes that we notice that people write in about is this fear of making the

  • wrong decision, whether it’s in their careers or it’s in their relationships.

  • So much of what youve talked about youve learned because something bad has happened.

  • Can you speak to that, the power of not worrying about whether or not youre making the right

  • decision?

  • Right.

  • You know, I think most of us, we want to stay safe and we want to stay comfortable, and

  • this is why we stay in jobs that we don't really like.

  • Because it’s like, oh, this is the reasonable thing to do.

  • Or we stay in relationships that aren’t serving us or good for us anymore.

  • Or maybe never were.

  • We stay in friendships or relationships with people who are destructive to us.

  • You know, and it’s… and I think that the root of that is about fear and is about having

  • to experience that kind of pain or discomfort that happens right after you make that move,

  • you end that relationship, you quit that job.

  • And everyone around you is saying, “Why did you do that?

  • He seemed like a great guy.

  • Well, what are you gonna do for a living now?

  • How are you gonna pay the rent?”

  • All of those questions that you get in those rocky periods after we actually shake things

  • up.

  • You know, I think many of us sort of innately recoil from them.

  • And what I’ve learned is, you know, basically there’s no way around that.

  • The other option is to stay in the thing that sucks.

  • Yes.

  • And then what happens?

  • Then youthen you look up and it’s like, you know, you have a life of regret, you have

  • a life of I wish I would have done this 10 years ago.

  • I can’t tell you how many middle aged and older people are in my writing workshops who

  • say to me I always wanted to be a writer.

  • I always wanted to be a writer, but I… but it wasit didn't… it wasn’t… it didn't

  • make sense.

  • And they neverit haunted them all their lives.

  • And then theyre finally in my workshop and they have a sense of regret.

  • All those years they couldve been doing what they loved.

  • And, you know, this, it’s also true that, you know, I grew up working class and poor.

  • I’ve spent most of my adult life really having to figure out in a deep way how to

  • pay that next bill.

  • Until, you know, recent times, that’s been a reality for me.

  • So I don't say this from a position of, like, don't worry.

  • Just go be a painter and you can, you know, somebody will pay your bills.

  • That’s not what i’m advocating.

  • It’s a very fine point.

  • When I say you have to make your own life, you do have to figure out, as I say in one

  • of my Dear Sugar columns, you have to pay your own electric bill.

  • You have to figure those things out.

  • You know, there are practical ways that you can build all of that into your life, you

  • know, nurturing your creative soul while also putting it together to pay the rent.

  • I’m not just speaking from that place of privilege.

  • I think one of the other things that’s so utterly endearing about your Dear Sugar columns

  • is how youve managed to embrace these extremely difficult situations and give people perspective

  • and advice, so to speak.

  • It just walks this line of duality that two things can be true at once.

  • Something can be extraordinarily annihilating to our souls and we can still get up and move

  • forward.

  • Absolutely.

  • I think almost always two things are true at once.

  • Right?

  • You know, I mean, I think about all of the best things in my life, every single best

  • thing in my life is also incredibly hard.

  • You know?

  • It’s incredible.

  • I mean, being a mother, being a wife, being a writer.

  • You know, all of those things, they entail so much.

  • You know, there’s… it’s not all, like, joy and rainbows and unicorns.

  • Yeah.

  • And so I think about that too, you know, like what I just said, ok, so follow your dreams

  • and live out that vision that you have for yourself even if it is gonna be hard to earn

  • money doing it.

  • And also, oh, youve got to earn money.

  • You know, that it’s not one or the other.

  • I think really when we try to find, like, carry both of those truths, you know, in both

  • hands, that’s almost always when I think we feel the most actualized.

  • I’ve been thinking lately about, like, what is happiness?

  • You know, what is the definition of happiness in my life?

  • And for me it’s really very much that mythat what I appear to be in my exterior life

  • is very close to who I really am inside.

  • You know, the joining of, like, that I’m not pretending.

  • That I can say, you know, what really makes me excited as a creative person is writing

  • and that I’m somebody who does write.

  • You know, it’s… it’s such a tragedy when you havewhen you meet those people

  • in the class, “Oh, I wanted to write for 30 years and didn't until now.”

  • And they look at me with such loss in their eyes.

  • Or that marriage or that job, whatever it is that makes people feel that they have to

  • pretend rather than live out who they are inside.

  • I think that that is a far deeper suffering than any sort of difficulty that might be

  • felt when we make that leap.

  • So I want to go to a quote that you have that speaks to the power of us revisiting our own

  • narrative, something that I feel like I need to do more of.

  • And I think all of us maybe perhaps.

  • Don't surrender all of your joy for an idea you used to have about yourself that

  • isn’t true anymore.”

  • Have you been examining your own narrative?

  • I can only imagine that you have with how much has happened in these past few years.

  • Yeah.

  • It’s an absolute ongoing process.

  • And what a difficult and humbling one.

  • The biggest one for me is most definitely, you know, that I’ve always been a person

  • who leapt into the world and the answer was yes.

  • Everything.

  • I wanted to do everything.

  • I wanted to take every opportunity that came my way.

  • And it was really a part of, you know, part of how I, you know, made it as a writer is,

  • like, always grab every rope that swings by.

  • Grab it and climb up it and see what happens next.

  • And what happened with Wild, and I think this is, you know, it’s partially because of

  • the success of Wild.

  • It’s also partially because of where I am in my life.

  • You know, I’m 48 and I know that so many of my female peers in particular had reached

  • this phase in their lives at this age where you start to say, you know what?

  • I’m not going to say yes to everything.

  • Because part of saying yes to everything was that thing, you know, that I’ve always said

  • can’t be the answer, and that is making other people happy, makinggetting my validation

  • from outside.

  • You know, the thing about yes is when you say yes to everyone, everyone’s happy with

  • you, but there did reach a pointthere has reached a point lately where I’m like,

  • but I’m not happy with myself.

  • That I need to learn that word no.

  • And this seems like a really small thing.

  • It’s been a real shock of the last few years for me that it’s a very difficult thing

  • for me.

  • I mean, it’s really difficult.

  • It’s like epicallyit’s a struggle that goes down to, like, the core of who I

  • am and I am trying to learn how to do it.

  • I’m not

  • I’ve made some progress and I’m not, like, I’m not on the other side of that.

  • You know?

  • And so I think that that’s, you know, when I say, well, what’s the story I tell myself

  • about, like, who I am in the world?

  • Part of it, I’m trying to in some ways embrace a side of me that is less pleasing to others

  • so that I can protect myself more.

  • And that’s just incredibly hard for me.

  • No isit’s a word that for me comes up

  • I have this little phrase that we teach our B-Schoolers, our online business program,

  • and I talk to them about getting a first class ticket on the no train.

  • Because I remember for myself, yes to everything.

  • And it is part of, especially in the beginning, what helps you climb and develop strength

  • and start to put yourself in the way of amazing opportunities to contribute and grow.

  • But then there does come a certain point where it’s self-preservation.

  • And I think also for me, there’s a dimension of that of pushing against societal definition

  • of success.

  • More isn’t better, bigger isn’t better.

  • Right.

  • And so I am with you in that constant reevaluation and really taking my yesses seriously.

  • And the no has to come up and it is, it’s challenging.

  • And part of it for me is I want to support people and I want to contribute and I want

  • to help.

  • I’ve alwaysall of those things for me.

  • And soand then there’s that part of me when I say no I feel like, gosh, am I being

  • ungrateful?

  • You know, am I being ungenerous?

  • And all those things.

  • So I just think this is a great conversation to have because I’ve met so many women who

  • are also feeling that same way, trying to find that balance of being able to say no

  • to the world so they can say yes to themselves.

  • Absolutely.

  • And, you know, one thing I always sort of feel a little bit of better

  • I take comfort in is I think that people who are ungrateful probably never stop and ask

  • themselves, “Am I being ungrateful?”

  • That’s right.

  • You know what I mean?

  • Like, just the fact that youre asking that question, you know, tells me youre not.

  • And that’s because you have consciousness about gratitude.

  • You have consciousness about helping others and giving back.

  • And I absolutely feel like one of the greatest gifts of the success I’ve had is bringing

  • all of these people along with me and helping and giving voice to people who didn't have

  • voices or, you know, all of that stuff.

  • Like, I’m… sign me up.

  • You know.

  • But what I realize is I can’t do it all.

  • Because in so many ways, what it will keep me from doing too is the thing that got me

  • here in the first place.

  • You know?

  • Writing those books.

  • Yes.

  • And writing does entail saying no to everything but me in a room and the silence.

  • Yeah.

  • And I do wanna point out, because I researched this about you, that now, because your life

  • is very different.

  • And, you know, writing when were in our teens or twenties and we don't have families

  • and mortgages and pets and husbands and kids, that sometimes you will just take yourself

  • to the Marriott.

  • That’s right.

  • Down the street.

  • The locallike, I’ll go on hotels.com, like what’s the cheapest hotel within, like,

  • a mile of my house and just check into a hotel and spend a night or two writing.

  • Because I am a binge writer.

  • I write best when I can write in, like, 14 hour stretches.

  • And so I do that.

  • You know, I’ll also escape sometimes, I have a cabin now up on Mount Hood in Oregon,

  • it’s like an hour from my house, escape to the woods to write.

  • You know, and those are really important things.

  • Silence, it’s never become more difficult to get that because of the beautiful world

  • of the internet and so forth.

  • But I think it’s really a valuable thing to reach for.

  • Yeah.

  • And I actually think, if I can make a prediction, I think within the next 5 or 10 years were

  • going to start seeing a lot more places that will be wifi and technology free.

  • Yeah, I think youre right.

  • Little havens for folks to go and just disconnect from

  • Yeah, it’s kinda like when real butter went out of fashion for a while.

  • Margaine.

  • Yeah, and now it’s back.

  • It’s back.

  • It’s really back.

  • Ok, two more things before we wrap up.

  • Future dreams.

  • Any future dreams for you?

  • Yes.

  • Well, there are books I want to write.

  • You know, when I think about my professional life, that’s the most meaningful work for

  • me.

  • And, you know, I’m working on a book right now and then I’ve also started, like, the

  • book after that.

  • And I had to set it aside so I could work on the book I’m writing right now.

  • And they both live within me.

  • Theyre like these kind of phantom children that I haven’t yet brought to life.

  • And I really am very deeply invested in carrying those out.

  • And with each book I think, like any writer, I want to learn more and do better and tell

  • a deeper, bigger, more important story about what it means to be human.

  • And so I’m, you know, always endeavoring in that direction.

  • All of my dreams, when it comes to my creative work really, I mean, I do all kinds of things,

  • but it’s really like writing those books that matters the most.

  • Time in the cabin.

  • Yeah.

  • It’s really just that I want to go stay at the Marriott.

  • Room service!

  • That’s right.

  • Let’s wrap with one of your favorite quotes, I believe from your mom.

  • Putting yourself in the way of beauty.

  • Right.

  • For anyone watching, if they find themselves, their life circumstances right now are perhaps

  • in frustration or maybe theyre in the midst of a deep loss, how might that quote give

  • them some comfort?

  • Right.

  • Well, what that quote means is, you know, my mother, who did not have an easy life,

  • who often had reasons to feel stressed out or upset or, you know, even depressed, would

  • say to me and my brother and sister when we were complaining about anything, “This is

  • this is on you.”

  • Life will always present us with challenges.

  • Life will always be difficult.

  • Life willthings will always disappoint us or hurt us or make us feel bad, but you

  • don't have to stay in that feeling.

  • That every day the world at large gives you the opportunity to witness beauty, and so

  • put yourself in the way of it.

  • Put yourself in the way of beauty.

  • There’s always a sunrise, there’s always a sunset.

  • You get to choose to be there for it or not.

  • And that’s been a really important way of thinking about life for me, because, again,

  • it isn’t saying that life is easy.

  • It’s not

  • I don't like the quotes that are all about these kind of pie in the sky, everything is

  • beautiful and so let us never sully that.

  • I love beauty that’s grounded in struggle.

  • And that’s what my mother meant about putting yourself in the way of beauty.

  • That life will always be hard and life will also always be beautiful.

  • You know, I think about

  • I was just last night with a friend whose son died a couple of years ago, his teenage

  • son, and we were talking about, you know, how have you survived this loss that makes

  • you feel like every day you can’t keep living?

  • I mean, I reallythat’s what that loss feels like to him every day.

  • And I already knew the answer.

  • I don't even need to ask it.

  • Because every day something also is beautiful.

  • And it’s right there alongside all of our sorrow and all of our loss and all of our

  • ugliness.

  • And so wethat’s the piece of life that we can control.

  • We can’t control whether your kid dies when he’s 16.

  • Right?

  • But we can control what we do with our days, where we find that light to go on.

  • Cheryl, you are a national treasure.

  • Thank you.

  • Thank you so much for being here.

  • Thank you for your body of work.

  • Youre an incredible human and I adore you.

  • I love you.

  • I look forward to all of the rest of the work that continues to come out of you.

  • Thank you.

  • It was so lovely to be here.

  • Thank you for having me.

  • Now Cheryl and I would love to hear from you.

  • We talked about a lot of amazing things today.

  • What’s the single biggest insight that youre taking away from this conversation?

  • Leave a comment below and let us know.

  • Now, as always, the best conversations happen after the episode over at MarieForleo.com,

  • so go there and leave a comment now.

  • Once youre there, be sure to subscribe and become an MF insider.

  • Youll get instant access to an audio I created called How to Get Anything You Want

  • and you'll also get some exclusive content, some giveaways, and personal updates from

  • me that I just don't share anywhere else.

  • Stay on your game and keep going for your dreams because the world needs that special

  • gift that only you have.

  • Thank you so much for watching and I’ll catch you next time on MarieTV.

  • I couldve said things to make you cry so much harder.

  • Oh my God, youre such a sweet

  • I scaled it back there.

  • Youre a skilled woman.

Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business

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