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  • [MUSIC PLAYING]

  • VITO ACCONCI: I remember being tremendously jolted the first

  • time I saw a Jasper Johns painting.

  • And it seemed like, wow, conventions are important.

  • It's as if Jasper Johns really wanted to do all these little

  • abstract brush strokes, but he said, why

  • would anybody pay attention?

  • However, if I make a number five, you can't help pay

  • attention-- if you make a target.

  • It's a way to draw people in, which made me think in terms

  • of English.

  • English language idioms--

  • can you play with words?

  • The great thing about words is that they seem so definite,

  • but they're so hazy and cloudy.

  • You can pick one word within a word and it starts to

  • contradict the basic word.

  • I don't want to do something that refers to

  • something off the page.

  • Towards the end of the time I was writing, I started to

  • think, I can't use words like "tree," "chair." This refers

  • to a space off the page, whereas I could use, on the

  • page, words like "there," "then," "at that time," "in

  • that space," "in that place"--

  • words that directly referred to my act of writing the page,

  • words that referred to the reader's act of

  • going down the page.

  • They were almost like guides for the reader.

  • Though, eventually--

  • one of the last poems I wrote was a poem consisting of a

  • page on reading speed--

  • how to improve reading speed.

  • The title given to it was something like "The Time Taken

  • For Me to Walk From 14th Street and 6th Avenue to 14th

  • Street and 5th Avenue"--

  • so an attempt to make reading time

  • equivalent to writing time.

  • By the time I got there, I thought, I can't turn back.

  • The stuff has taken me out to the street.

  • And also, I started to question, if I'm so interested

  • in space and moving over a space, why am I moving over an

  • 8 and 1/2 by 11 piece of paper?

  • There's a floor out there.

  • There's a street out there.

  • There's a world out there.

  • What can I do on the street?

  • Follow a person.

  • What I thought of as activities--

  • they weren't exactly performances.

  • There wasn't a viewer.

  • If anything, I was the viewer.

  • I used what was available.

  • I started to use a Super 8 camera--

  • later, a video camera.

  • I was very struck by a beautiful Charlie Chaplin

  • statement when he was asked, why didn't he ever use a close

  • up in his comedies?

  • And his answer was, well, there's just nothing funny

  • about a face 15 feet high, which changed my life.

  • And then I realized, but video is a place--

  • a video monitor, a video screen, at least then, was

  • approximately the size of a person's face.

  • So the way I did videos was my face on screen, face

  • to face with you--

  • I have to assume somebody's going to watch it--

  • with you offscreen.

  • What am I doing in relation to you?

  • First of all, where am I?

  • Am I face to face with you?

  • And in this case, I'm on the floor.

  • I'm either a pet cat or a snake.

  • [MUSIC PLAYING FROM VIDEO]

  • No, I don't need your picture.

  • I don't have to know what you look like.

  • We haven't even said hello yet.

  • You can look like anybody.

  • I'll take anybody.

  • I'll take anything I can get.

  • Some of the videos I did before this--

  • I was really struck by the--

  • sorry, I can't say I stole this from these movies.

  • But it was '72, '73, a great Bob Rafelson movie called

  • "King of Marvin Gardens."

  • It begins with black and Jack Nicholson's face leaning into

  • the screen, and direct confrontation.

  • That was important to me.

  • Though, I had done stuff before that, I guess.

  • But actually, I think a lot of the face-to-face video stuff I

  • did was really not until '73.

  • So I think I got it from "King of Marvin Gardens."

  • -People always say about you that, at some point, you

  • turned your back on the art world.

  • VITO ACCONCI: To me, the shorthand to the time is the

  • music of the time.

  • In the late '60s, early '70s, I was listening to Neil Young,

  • Van Morrison--

  • single voice, long song.

  • There was something else going on in the music.

  • The introduction of the Velvet Underground was like the

  • introduction of the city in the middle of what, in effect,

  • was rural music, country music.

  • You have all the time in the world to wander.

  • But Velvet Underground was the city's closing in on you.

  • So by the mid '70s, I was listening to a

  • different kind of music.

  • I was listening to the Ramones, the Sex Pistols.

  • No longer single voice, no longer long song, because a

  • scream can't last for six minutes.

  • It started to become clear to me that my stuff is so

  • grounded on the '60s.

  • It's so grounded on a time in which the common language is

  • finding oneself, as if the self is something that you

  • separate from the rest of the person and concentrate on and

  • contemplate.

  • [UNINTELLIGIBLE SOUNDS]

  • VITO ACCONCI: I've never loved galleries.

  • I've never particularly loved museums.

  • But have I turned my back?

  • I don't know, it's an interesting--

  • I think I don't feel a connection to the art world.

  • But I always had questions about the art

  • world, even when I started.

  • I come from a generation who had the illusion that we were

  • going to do the kind of work that would make galleries go

  • out of existence.

  • We were very naive.

  • And also, in some ways, a lot of us were right.

  • We didn't make commodities, so we always had a

  • difficult time surviving.

  • By '73, '74, '75, I and a lot of other people were starting

  • to have very different notions of self.

  • Self wasn't this precious jewel that you found and

  • focused on.

  • Self maybe existed only as part of a social system, a

  • cultural system, a political system.

  • By the mid '70s, I wanted stuff of mine to be part of

  • those overall systems.

  • In other words, I thought, is my stuff inherently

  • self-enclosed?

  • Yes, it was me and you.

  • But what about we?

  • Once I did "Seedbed" in '72, I started to realize it's not

  • the '60s anymore.

  • I might have masturbated in a gallery in 1972.

  • People were fucking in the streets in 1965.

  • Art is a little slow.

  • Luckily, life is faster.

  • Our first goal is really not to build.

  • Our first goal is, can we come up with a design, can we

  • design a space, can we design a condition that

  • will surprise us?

  • An attempt we made a few years ago to propose a new light

  • system for New York--

  • the competition brief said that the new light system

  • should have a very thick post, because the post would have to

  • hold different kinds of lights,

  • different kinds of signs.

  • We thought this was probably misguided since you wouldn't

  • need all those different kinds of lights, all those different

  • kinds of signs, all the time.

  • Let's take the opposite approach.

  • Let's use the thinnest pole possible.

  • Then, each pole would hold one kind of

  • light, one kind of sign.

  • The more you needed then, you would braid them together.

  • You would braid each one sign, one light post together so you

  • could have multiple lights at posts.

  • Needless to say, the new light system is exactly the same as

  • the old one.

  • We, like a lot of people, made a kind of attempt at a

  • possible new World Trade Center.

  • We proposed a World Trade Center full of holes.

  • Our starting point was that if a building nowadays is going

  • to be exploded anyway, maybe a building nowadays should come

  • already exploded.

  • It should come pre-exploded.

  • So we take the original site of the World Trade Center,

  • extrude it to a height of 110 stories high--

  • more of a mass, more of a volume than the original World

  • Trade Center ever was, more private office space than

  • anybody could possibly need so we could shoot cones into it.

  • Now that the building is riddled with holes, it can

  • possibly act as a kind of urban camouflage.

  • A terrorist flying by above looks down and says, we don't

  • have to bother about this building.

  • It's already been dealt with.

  • Now that the building is riddled with holes, there are

  • now tunnels from one side to another, tunnels

  • from bottom to top.

  • Now that there are tunnels through the building, the rest

  • of the building can come inside.

  • Parks can come inside the building.

  • Street vendors can come inside the building.

  • In other words, instead of trying to observe the

  • convention of private office building with so-called public

  • space outside, can we mix public and private?

  • Which, I think, our projects, at least when they work,

  • always try to do.

  • This is paradoxical maybe, but even though we build far from

  • everything we do, we do think it's necessary to build,

  • because you have to build in order to test the theory.

  • And the only way you can test the theory is what happens

  • when other people come in.

  • I got a lot of my ideas of architecture from "Blade

  • Runner." "Blade Runner" was so startling to me.

  • This contradicted the 2001 notion of architecture.

  • The future is abstract and all white.

  • The "Blade Runner" notion shrugged its shoulders and

  • said, we're never going to have enough money to build

  • from the beginning.

  • Let's just tack on to what's already there.

  • And again, it made a kind of sense.

  • So our first goal is to do something that surprises us.

  • And hopefully, if it surprises us, maybe it can surprise and

  • excite at least one other person.

  • Graz, for example--

  • we always made the assumption that probably there's a chance

  • that younger people like our work.

  • I don't think we have much of a chance with older people.

  • But that's OK.

  • It's a way that I can maybe pretend that

  • I'm not getting older.

  • When the Graz island was finished, people in Graz

  • started to use the island as a place for walks.

  • And a lot of old people were walking on the island.

  • I was really surprised.

  • The interesting thing, when somebody was in the theater--

  • and especially, I remember, this happened a

  • lot with older people.

  • They're in the theater.

  • They're walking.

  • Suddenly, they look up and around, and

  • they started to laugh.

  • It seemed like, well, maybe they kind of got

  • the feeling of it.

  • They were in this open space.

  • Now, without realizing it, without going through an

  • entrance, it became a more closed space.

  • And even though we couldn't use the same language, people

  • came up to us and thanked us.

  • There was a peace tree named after us.

  • Now, I don't know if I can say that's totally a sign, but it

  • seemed like--

  • What we were asked to do was this person-made island that

  • would have three functions-- a theater, a cafe, and a

  • playground.

  • So we started with the

  • conventional idea of a theater--

  • a bowl.

  • What if we twist the bowl?

  • What if we turn it upside down?

  • Bowl becomes dome.

  • Dome becomes the cafe.

  • The twisting, warping space in between becomes the

  • playground.

  • You walk in under a canopy that twists down to make

  • lounge seating around the cafe.

  • Our bar twists down to make a number of bar counters.

  • The reason for the number of bar counters is that when we

  • design a project, we try to envision what can happen here.

  • This is a bar.

  • Somebody's drunk.

  • Whenever this person extends his or her hand, they might

  • hit a bar counter, at least they have some chance.

  • I always say, yes, we give people a place to use.

  • If we put a couple of folding chairs there, would it have

  • done the same thing?

  • I hope we provide more than a folding chair.

  • We provide a folding chair with a twist.

  • Does everybody want that?

  • I hope--

  • maybe everybody doesn't want it.

  • Do we want something that everybody wants?

  • I guess we want to appeal to people who think that, wow, I

  • didn't know space didn't have to be implacable and fixed.

  • Now that I've been in this space, maybe I can turn my

  • space upside down.

  • Maybe I can twist my space.

  • I admit, do we want to appeal to everybody?

  • No.

  • We want to appeal to people who want a second

  • chance, want a future.

  • I got so excited with the notion of a computer-oriented

  • time, because it seems like everybody has things

  • in their own hands.

  • So it seems this should be the most optimistic time ever.

  • Ideally, we want to do stuff that couldn't have been built,

  • couldn't have been designed, ideally, couldn't even have

  • been dreamt of before the 21st century.

  • We don't do that.

  • But we wish could.

  • We try.

  • We wanted to make a system that possibly

  • could adapt to people.

  • Could people change the system they're in?

  • This is a project we're doing in Indianapolis.

  • The street goes through a building.

  • When people go through it, there's a structure of LED

  • lights that follow you and swarm around you.

  • They're not exactly swarming around you.

  • It's an on and off system.

  • But we wanted to make this system that would be almost

  • like fire flies.

  • So fire flies would follow you.

  • If another one person comes, the fire

  • flies start to mingle.

  • Can it be done?

  • Yes.

  • Can it be done for a $600,000 budget?

  • We're not sure yet, but we think it can.

  • But we've been working on a number of projects

  • that adjust to people.

  • This is a proposal that won this competition for a

  • sculpture park in Bernau in the Czech Republic.

  • But whether it'll actually happen is another matter.

  • We wanted to fill the space with these almost fake grass,

  • fake bamboo.

  • It would be fibers.

  • As soon as a person walks, when a person comes close, the

  • fibers start to part.

  • The fibers part to let you through.

  • This notion of things parting, adjusting to people, is

  • something we've tried a number of versions.

  • We did a tattoo based on this system that--

  • actually, one or two actual tattoos exist.

  • A person would pick out the imperfections

  • on his or her body.

  • And then we would make a kind of magnetic field system.

  • One mole calls to the other.

  • And we're wondering if we can make a clothing

  • system out of this.

  • You pick five points on the body--

  • two nipples, a belly button, and a vagina.

  • Can one draw the other and you make this

  • kind of field system?

  • Ideally, you can build a city on this magnetic field system.

  • But I don't know how far we've gotten.

  • There are a number of architects, certainly not just

  • us, who are trying to do things according to principles

  • of biology.

  • Right now, it seems to be only a metaphor.

  • Yes, I can say, here's a magnetic field system.

  • Yeah, maybe you can use that as a system of design, but

  • it's not going to move in the future.

  • Maybe it will.

  • But certainly not as we've done.

  • It's more of a design method, where it should be a real

  • growth method.

  • We haven't figured out how to do it yet.

  • But at the same time, I don't want to say that this isn't

  • possible in the future.

  • It's certainly not possible now.

  • Or maybe I even have to say more validly that we haven't

  • found a way to make what we really want happen.

  • But I can't say that, amongst some of those architects that

  • we admire, somebody might have discovered it.

  • We don't know about it yet.

  • Right now, we listen to electronic music, Japanese

  • noise music--

  • no voice.

  • We want music to be as--

  • I think music and architecture are exactly the same.

  • Not exactly the same, but they're at least analagous.

  • Both music and architecture make a surrounding.

  • They make an ambiance.

  • But also, both music and architecture allow you to do

  • something else-- something else while listening to music,

  • something else while in the middle of architecture.

  • To me, that's probably the keynote of the 21st century.

  • Like, I think, a lot of architects now, I think what

  • we really want is, can we make a place you take with you?

  • A little fashion magazine called "The Black Book" a few

  • years ago proposed to us that the umbrella hasn't been

  • redesigned in years.

  • Could we try our hand at an alternate umbrella?

  • We started with the idea of ruffles in clothing.

  • So what we did was make a kind of "umbruffla," combining

  • umbrella and ruffles.

  • It's made of two-way mirrored mylar, so when you're wearing

  • it, because of the change of light, you can see out.

  • But from outside, you just see the reflections of city.

  • So it acts as a camouflage system.

  • Our umbrella has some advantages over the

  • conventional umbrella.

  • You can tie one end to your waist, one end to your wrist

  • so your hands are free.

  • You can wrap it around you like a kind of cloak.

  • If another umbrella is coming towards you, you don't have to

  • bump umbrellas.

  • You can wrap it around yourself.

  • It's an umbrella that two people can use, so you can

  • wrap another person up with you.

  • Then, the ruffles system, if we do it well enough, will

  • allow it to fold down.

  • Ideally, it should fold into the size of a wrist.

  • I've always been told I'm a kind of incurable optimist.

  • I'm a curable optimist at the same time, being an amazing

  • depressive.

  • Yes, computer has all these kinds of possibilities.

  • Religion and belief is the opposite.

  • I can't necessarily say that religion and belief isn't

  • going to win.

  • I would be very optimistic if I could be convinced that

  • everybody wanted to leave home, but I'm afraid a lot of

  • people want to go back home.

  • And going back home, I think, is wanting something that you

  • can be sure of, something that you can believe, and also

  • something that you can keep other people out of.

  • And that's scary.

  • With--

  • not just an instrument, but the computer is a network of

  • instruments.

  • With a network of instruments so vast, it seems like, can

  • Homeland Security ultimately win?

  • I really don't think it can.

  • I might not be around to see it.

  • What I want to believe, or believe, is that-- and this

  • has something to do with what I was saying about the kind of

  • stuff we really want to do is the kind of place

  • you carry with you.

  • Maybe the future is a world where people carry their own

  • homes with them, where they never have to go home.

  • There are no boundaries to cross.

  • It's a world of nomads.

  • A world of nomads can be an incredibly exciting world, but

  • it's the opposite of home.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

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