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  • In this episode of MarieTV we do have some adult language.

  • So if you have little ones around, grab your headphones now.

  • Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business

  • and life you love.

  • If you have something inside of you that you want to bring to life, whether you want to

  • write it, you want to bake it, you want to draw it, dance it, or paint it, you are in

  • for a real treat.

  • Today were talking about what it takes to live a truly creative life and my guest

  • is really the person to show us how.

  • Elizabeth Gilbert is the number one New York Times bestselling author of Eat, Pray, Love

  • and several other internationally bestselling books of fiction and nonfiction.

  • Gilbert began her career writing for Harper’s Bazaar, Spin, The New York Times Magazine,

  • and GQ, and was a 3 time finalist for the National Magazine Award.

  • The follow up memoir, Committed, became an instant number one New York Times bestseller.

  • Her latest novel, The Signature of All Things, was named a best book of 2013 by The New York

  • Times, O Magazine, The Washington Post, The Chicago Tribune, and The New Yorker.

  • Elizabeth’s latest book, Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear, which tackles the elusive

  • mystery of creativity, is now available wherever books are sold.

  • Liz, thank you so much for taking the time to be here.

  • My pleasure, I love being here.

  • So Big Magic is your new book and, I have to tell you, it’s so genius.

  • When I got thisthis little copy below here that I actually have all flagged up and

  • it’s kind of ratty

  • Oh, I love seeing flags coming out of books.

  • Flags.

  • So, I have to tell you that I didn't want this book to be over so I slowed myself down

  • and I would savor it just like you would savor a good meal and I was so excited to have you

  • on today because it’s brilliant and I feel like it’s one of these books that I will

  • keep going back to again and again and again.

  • So I wanna start by asking you what was the big magic that inspired Big Magic?

  • What inspired you to write this?

  • Wow.

  • You know what it is?

  • It’s a response to years of being out in public talking to people who tell me about

  • the projects they want to be making and are not making, the things they want to be doing

  • and are not doing.

  • You know what I mean?

  • And often times when I’m in public I meet people who are making and doing really cool

  • things and they wanna tell me about it, but mostly it’s people who aren’t.

  • And when they come to me with their problems about creativity or their struggles with creativity

  • because they know I love to talk about creativity, I find that they always have some sort of

  • very rational, reasonable kind of material realreal world reason why theyre not

  • doing it that they can lay out as an explanation.

  • But when you start to scratch away at that, what’s underneath it is always and only

  • fear.

  • Yes.

  • Always and only fear.

  • I don't care what the excuses or the rationalization or the justification for why theyre not

  • doing the thing that’s calling to them, at the bottom of it theyre afraid.

  • Theyre afraid they don't have the talent, theyre afraid they don't have the right,

  • theyre afraid it’s already been done better, theyre afraid theyll be rejected

  • or insulted or criticized or, worse, ignored.

  • Theyre afraid there’s no point, theyre afraidyou know, they just have these,

  • like, tumbling piles of fear.

  • And I see it so much and I hear the same questions again and again that I finally just thought,

  • Well, let’s officially talk about this.”

  • Yes.

  • You know?

  • Like, let’s actually really break this down and try to figure out how people can live

  • more creative lives without being so scared.

  • One of the things you say about fear in the book is that fear is like a necessary companion.

  • Yeah.

  • And I loved that because I feel like in the world of personal development and sometimes

  • in spirituality in certain circles, you know, you wanna push through your fear, get over

  • your fear.

  • Punch it in the face!

  • Punch it in the face, dude!

  • Yeah.

  • Or kick it or whatever.

  • Yeah.

  • Or we, you know, just demonize it

  • Right.

  • ...in this way and I was wondering if you could speak to this idea of fear as a companion.

  • Yeah, I mean, the thing is, I have no desire to become a fearless person because the only

  • genuinely fearless human beings I’ve ever met were psychopaths or toddlers.

  • You know?

  • Likeand neither one of those things is interesting for me to model my life after

  • because there’s something missing from that person

  • Yes.

  • ...that’s very essential and you see it in the kind of, like, weird eyes.

  • Youre like, “Wow, you are a dangerous human being to yourself and others and I don't

  • wanna be anywhere near you.”

  • And so I’m not interested in fearlessness.

  • Somebody said to me the other day, “Tell us how you conquered fear,” and I was like,

  • “I… it’s adorable that you think I conquered…”

  • Did you read the book?

  • Yeah, that’s also

  • I’m afraid right this minute.

  • I’m afraid, like, almost every minute of my life.

  • So I haven’t conquered it and I’m not interested in conquering it.

  • Actually, what my relationship with fear begins with is a tremendous amount of respect and

  • appreciation because fear is the reason I am still alive today.

  • It’s the reason youre still alive today.

  • Every single one of us can point to a moment in our lives that we survived because we were

  • afraid.

  • Because they said... the thing, the voices said, “Get out of that ocean, the waves

  • are too big.”

  • You know, “This car is going too fast.”

  • Don't get into the apartment with that guy.”

  • This street is not safe to walk down.”

  • All of us are here because our fear is constantly protecting us, that’s its job and it does

  • its job beautifully.

  • It’s just that it’s all jacked up on Red Bull and it’s really trigger happy and it

  • doesn't know the difference between a genuinely dangerous situation and just a little bit

  • of a nervy situation.

  • You know?

  • So whenever I feel fear arise, which is constantly because I’m always trying to do creative

  • things and creativity will always provoke your fear because it asks you to enter into

  • a realm with an uncertain outcome, and fear hates that.

  • It thinks youre gonna die.

  • So any time I start a new creative project the fear rises and the first thing I do is

  • say to it, “Thank you so much for how much you care about me and how much you don't want

  • anything bad to happen to me, and I really appreciate that.

  • Your services are probably not needed here because I’m just writing a poem.

  • Like, no one’s gonna die.

  • No one’s gonna die, it’s ok.”

  • You know, and I just talk to it but in this really friendly way and I don't go to war

  • against it, I acknowledge its importance, and then I invite it along.

  • I’m like, “You can come with me, but I’m doing this thing.”

  • Yeah.

  • You know?

  • I loved the metaphor that you shared.

  • Yeah.

  • It’s like fear is gonna be in the car

  • Yeah.

  • ...but it’s gonna be in the backseat

  • Yeah.

  • ...and it’s not gonna drive.

  • Or choose the snacks or hold the map or touch the radio.

  • Like, fear doesn't get to make any decisions in creative ventures because frankly, with

  • all due respect to Grandfather Fear, it simply doesn't understand what creativity even is

  • because that’s a newer part of our brain, so it doesn't even know what’s going on.

  • So you can’t let it have any control over your creative choices or else it will shut

  • them down one idea after another.

  • Itll just be like, “Nope, don't do that.

  • Nope, too risky.

  • Nope.”

  • And itll just be one no after another and your life will be so much smaller than you

  • want your life to be.

  • One of the things I love that you shared, which I feel is a big subset of fear, is this

  • idea it’s all been done before.

  • I think it’s the thing that I hear the most both in my own brain

  • Right.

  • ...and when I talk to everyone out in the world

  • Yeah.

  • ...about their ideas or their businesses or their projects, there’s this recurring narrative

  • everything’s been done before.

  • And I was wondering if you can speak to originality vs. authenticity.

  • Ok, cool.

  • I’m glad you brought this up.

  • So whenever I talk to somebody who has an idea that theyre tremulously excited about,

  • generally speaking within the next 2 minutes they will say, “But, you know, it’s not

  • very original.

  • It’s already been done.”

  • And I always say, “But it has not yet been done by you.”

  • It has not yet been done by you.

  • And the answer is, yeah, guaranteed it’s already been done because humans are really

  • inventive and inquisitive and creative and weve had 40 thousand years of the arts

  • and pretty much everything has been done.

  • You know?

  • And that’s fine.

  • Like, even Shakespeare, half of his stories he totally stole from older stories because

  • there aren’t that many new stories to tell.

  • But he told them in a way that had never been told before and then 500 years later were

  • still borrowing them from him.

  • Were all just borrowing from each other.

  • And even the most original piece of creativity that you ever saw in your life where you were

  • like, “That’s groundbreaking, I’ve never seen anything like that before,” guaranteed

  • I could bring in, like, 10 professors and academics who could look at it and say, “Well,

  • obviously this is somebody who had read this book or they had heard this symphony or they

  • hadthey were playing off of this or they were rejecting that.

  • Theyre responding.”

  • All we do as humans is respond to stuff that’s already come before us.

  • But youre allowed to add to the pile.

  • Youre allowed to add to the pile and what I always say is whenever I look at art that’s

  • really original, I feel like I can admire it but it doesn't move me.

  • What moves me is the humanity in an authentic piece of creation where somebody was doing

  • something, whatever it was, because they had to, because they wanted to, because it brought

  • them to life, because it ignited their soul.

  • That’s what gives the shimmer of gold to something and makes me feel like my heart’s

  • been changed, my mind’s been changed, the world looks different than it did before.

  • So I don't care if it's been done.

  • I don't care if it’s been done 10 thousand times.

  • If you need to do it, do it.

  • You know, there’s 2 things I want to comment on.

  • One, have you checked out Everything is a Remix?

  • No.

  • Oh, I can’t…

  • ok, so I’m gonna email you on this.

  • Youre gonna love it.

  • It speaks to this idea and it traces back

  • Oh, that is a great shorthand for everything I just said.

  • Yeah.

  • But it’s brilliant and I think youre gonna love it.

  • But itit really is true and I think there’s so much relief that we can feel in that.

  • Yeah.

  • I know in my own creative life

  • Right.

  • ...the pressure, you know, to keep creating and to keep pushing those edges and those

  • boundaries and growth and doing something innovative and new and you can start to make

  • yourself crazy.

  • There's so many ways to make yourself crazy.

  • Right.

  • And that’s number nine on the list.

  • But, yeah, exactly.

  • Andbut the second thing that you tipped off for me was something else in the book

  • that I absolutely loved and it was a real lightbulb moment.

  • I want to thank you for writing it.

  • It was about really examining your motivations.

  • Right.

  • And, you know, if you want to help peopleand this was interesting for me.

  • And it’s like, you know, you want to write a book to help me.

  • Please, don't.

  • Please don't help me.

  • Please don't help me.

  • But this idea of creating because it brings you joy.

  • Right, right.

  • Exactly.

  • I mean, I think when youre a good person and youre a giving person and youre

  • a person of humanity, then of course when you set out to do something you think, “Well,

  • I probably shouldn’t do this unless it will serve.”

  • Right?

  • Because that’s… because were good people.

  • Yes.

  • And were raised to believe that.

  • I love this quote by this British newspaper editor who said, “You can always tell people

  • who live for others by the anguished expressions on the faces of the others.”

  • You know?

  • Youre just like, “Oh, God.

  • Here she comes with her really good intentions.

  • Like, I just feel likelike please don't.”

  • You know?

  • Yes.

  • Andand also it’s a heavy mandate for something that should be the lightest thing

  • in your life, which is how you express your own creativity.

  • I love helping people.

  • I think there are much more efficient ways for me to do it.

  • Like, I give money to good organizations and I vote and I volunteer and I do all of that

  • kind of stuff.

  • My art though is mine.

  • And even the art that I make that ends up helping people like, you know, Eat, Pray,

  • Love, for instance.

  • People will say, “Thank you so much for your book.

  • It really helped me, it changed me.”

  • I didn't sit down to write that book saying, “It’s high time I changed people’s lives.”

  • You know?

  • Like, I was such a hot mess at that point in my life, like, I could barely tie my own

  • shoes at that moment.

  • Like, the last thing I had any business doing was being like, “And now, people, let me

  • give you the answers.”

  • You know, itthat book was about me just looking for grace and looking for resurrection

  • in my own life.

  • And then accidentally, because I followed my own curiosity, trusted my creativity, made

  • the work I wanted to make, I accidentally ended up helping people.

  • That’s a side effect that canthat can happen in the end.

  • And I have a quote in the book from this wonderful German theologian who said, “All love eventually

  • becomes help.”

  • All love eventually becomes help.

  • So if you wanna help, just love.

  • Just love what youre doing, love who youre with, make sure that you love where youre

  • living, lovewhatever the thing is that you love, youll start to sort of radiate

  • this thing that people will want to be near and itll make them better and that’s

  • the very kindest thing that you could possibly do for your community.

  • It is not Sunday, but we are preaching right now.

  • It’s Sunday every day.

  • Amen to all of that.

  • So I remember reading this particular part of Big Magic out loud and I cheered and I

  • laughed and I did my Jersey fist pump, right, all the way.

  • Jersey in the house doubled up here today.

  • Jersey, seriously.

  • And so when I read shit sandwiches and day jobs.

  • Ok, so I need to say this, I believe that those twofirst of all, I think the book

  • is required reading for every human, butbut those two in particular.

  • Thank you.

  • Youre so welcome.

  • Istheyre so vital for anyone trying to do anything, but especially if they have

  • entrepreneurial aspirations.

  • Right.

  • You know, they wanna be a writer, they wanna be a dancer.

  • Anything.

  • Wanna start a business, wanna

  • Yes.

  • So if we could start with the fact, and I loved this because this is my mentality and

  • how I…

  • I was like, “She gave words to it.

  • I love it.”

  • That finding your true purpose is really about deciding which flavor of shit sandwich youre

  • really in for.

  • Love that.

  • Well, this is

  • I wish it were my idea.

  • It’s not my idea.

  • I borrowed it but I will lay it out here anyway.

  • Yes.

  • The idea is that every pursuit, no matter how glamorous it may seem, no matter how exciting

  • you areit feels to you, no matter how much you feel like you were born to do it,

  • comes with a shit sandwich.

  • And so the question is not, “What do I love?”

  • The question is, “What do I love so much that I don't mind eating the shit sandwich

  • that comes along with that thing?”

  • So for me in my life writing is the thing that I love and the shit sandwich was the

  • 7 years that I was not getting published and that I was coming home from my job as a diner

  • waitress, as a bartender, as an au pair, as a… somebody who worked in flea markets,

  • as a cook, and I was coming home tired and smelling like other people's french fries,

  • and sitting down and doing my real job, which was to write.

  • And then to go to the mailbox the next day and get another rejection letter.

  • And then say, “Do I still wanna do this?

  • Because this shit sandwich sucks.”

  • Am I ready to take another bite?

  • You know?

  • And I did still wanna do it and now even as somebody who makes their living as a writer,

  • there’s no end to the shit sandwiches.

  • It’s like, “Um, oh, hello horrible review in prominent newspaper.

  • That’s your shit sandwich today, Liz.

  • You still wanna do this work?”

  • Yup.

  • Yeah, I still do.

  • Still worth it.

  • Like, hello awful comment on social media from somebody who thinks youre a pile of

  • dog shit.

  • You know?

  • And just has, like, chosen every possible way that they can just cannot get it out of

  • their system fast enough how much disregard they have for your entire life.

  • Yup.

  • Still wanna do this thing?

  • Yeah, I still wanna do it.

  • You know, so that’s the question.

  • Because if the first time you encounter the shit sandwich youre like, “Well, this

  • this isn’t worth it,” then that’s not the thing youre supposed to be doing.

  • Yes.

  • And there are plenty of things in life thatthat I have run into the shit sandwich and

  • I’ve been like, “So not worth it.

  • So not worth it.

  • Like, this is not

  • I don't wanna do this.

  • Like, whatever the benalleged benefits of this thing might be, no.”

  • I’m not down

  • Soulcycle.

  • No.

  • You know?

  • Like, I know it’s probably really good for me but I feel like throwing up right now because

  • this is too hard.

  • I’m out.

  • I’m… youll not be seeing me here again.

  • You know?

  • Likeand I love my sisters at Soulcycle, I just don't like feeling like I’m gonna

  • throw up when I exercise.

  • So it’s not for me.

  • Yeah.

  • You know?

  • Andand so that’s the question.

  • So if you go into this thing thinking, “If I follow my bliss and I live my dream and

  • I stand in my truth, then everything will be great,” it doesn't mean everything will

  • be great.

  • It just means at the end of the day when you check in with yourself and you go, “In the

  • end, on the balance, is this still better than not doing it?”

  • And the answer is still yeah, this thing is still better than not doing it, then youre

  • on the right path.

  • I can’t tell you how many people will think that, you know, what were shooting here,

  • and there’s lights and I have a blowout and, you know

  • Yeah.

  • It’s like I don't do this every day.

  • Like, so much work goes into what those little blips of

  • Yeah.

  • And the rest of the time there's a lot of shit sandwiches on the table.

  • There’s a lot of shit

  • There’s a lot, theyre lined up like Jersey subs.

  • Yeah.

  • I had a friend that I speak about in the book when I was in my 20s who was, I still believe,

  • a far better writer than I was.

  • Far better and far more naturally talented than me.

  • And just got so enraged that the same thing was happening to him as was happening to me,

  • which was nothing.

  • You know?

  • It’s like youre doing this work and youre getting absolutely nothing out of it.

  • And I just remember the day where he was like, “I’m done.”

  • And my sense, honestly, that day was like I was looking at his half eaten shit sandwich

  • and I was like, “Are you gonna finish that, dude?

  • Because I’ll eat it.

  • Because I, like, I’ll finish your half eaten…” like, to stay in this game, that’s how much

  • I love this.

  • Yes.

  • Andand so that’s a really important, fundamental question and I think a really

  • realistic one.

  • I think it’s genius.

  • And, you know, the other portion about day jobs.

  • This is something, so when I…

  • Right.

  • ...first started, I started a life coaching business when I was 23.

  • I don't know what I was thinking, but I bartended and waited tables and taught fitness and did

  • everything I could to not be desperate during the day so I could figure out my craft.

  • Right.

  • So I could write content, so I could not be desperate as a life coach, because what other

  • more depressing thing in life is there?

  • You have to pay me!

  • I’m your life coach and I’m losing my house!

  • So

  • It’s not working!

  • It’s notnothing’s working!

  • But

  • Yeah, that’s not verythat doesn't instill confidence in your clients.

  • No, right?

  • It’s really not like living your best life.

  • And so anyway, I love this because, you know, I had day jobs for 7 years before my creative

  • life could support me and sustain me financially.

  • And frankly, I wasn’t sure at the beginning it ever would.

  • Right.

  • You know, I didn't know if that was going to happen.

  • Right.

  • And so I’d love to hear you talk about your take on this because it’s one of the things

  • where people have these ideas.

  • And there are some people, there are unicorns that say, “I’m going to do this and I’m

  • burning the bridge behind me,” and they putand I honor those people.

  • Right.

  • But what I’ve seen over time is theyre usually more the exception than the rule.

  • Right.

  • Look, if that’s how you have to do it

  • Yes.

  • ...if you can’t feel like you're alive unless youre burning bridges behind you, light

  • the match, walk away, that’s…

  • Fire it up.

  • ...that’s your deal.

  • Yeah.

  • That’s not the contract that I’ve ever had with my creativity because for me, you

  • know, we live in this sort of bumper sticker world where the two bumper stickers that I

  • always want to edit are thewith, like, a Sharpie in the parking lot.

  • There’s the one that says, “Jump and the net will catch you,” and there’s the one

  • that said, “What would you do if you knew you could not fail?”

  • Right?

  • So the edits I want to make are, “Jump and the net might catch you,” and, “What would

  • you do even if failure wasn’t even, like, a word that you were caring about?” which

  • is a long edit and makes for a terrible bumper sticker.

  • But what I’m getting at is I don't like thethe sort of

  • I don't like the ethic that says if you try really hard and youand you put everything

  • into it, youre gonna get everything that you want.

  • Because were all grownups here, so can we just say that that may or may not happen?

  • You may or may not get everything that you want.

  • You might put everything into something and it doesn't work, and that’s ok, if you didn’t

  • mortgage your house, risk your family, like, empty out your IRA, and just put yourself

  • in a really precarious situation such that you can never do it again.

  • Right.

  • Right?

  • That’s the other thing.

  • Such that youve been so battered by how you set up your life so that now youre

  • so cornered and strapped and anxious and shamed that you just say, “Well, if that’s what

  • it feels like to give 100% to something, you can keep it.

  • I’m gonna take nothing but safe choices for the rest of my life,” and that’s it

  • and you just shut down.

  • Right?

  • I never wanna see somebody put in that situation.

  • So the contract that I made with writing when I was 15 years old and I lit my candle and

  • made my deal with the universe and said, “I’m gonna be a writer for the rest of my life,”

  • one of the promises that I made to the work was I will never ask you to support me financially.

  • I will support both of us.

  • I’m a resourceful person, my parents raised me to be a worker.

  • I will do whatever I have to do to pay the rent and you and I will have a love affair

  • on the side of this that is not contingent upon monetization.

  • And I have watched so many creative people murder their creativity by insisting that

  • they are not truly creative unless their creativity pays the bills.

  • And if it doesn't pay the bills, which it might or might not, or it might for a while

  • and then it might not.

  • You might go out of fashion, your thing might change, people might not want that anymore

  • and all of a sudden youre stuck.

  • And I see those people go into depression, bitterness, rage, resentment.

  • You have to be child like in the pursuit of your life, but you cannot be childish.

  • And this is a really big difference.

  • Childlike means walking into the world with wide open wonder and being open and letting

  • go of bitterness and ready to be amazed, ready to be taught, ready for everything to be new.

  • That’s childlike.

  • Childish means I want it and I should have it and I don't…

  • I don't like the way this turned out, it’s not fair, I’m gonna have a temper tantrum

  • now, nothing ever goes my way, I didn't grow up in the right family, I don't have the right

  • tools, I didn't get to go to the right school, nobody likes me, I quit.

  • Andand just because I want it, I should have it.

  • That’s childish.

  • Yeah.

  • So you have to separate those things out.

  • I believe you can be childlike and mature at the same time.

  • And mature means looking after yourself in the real world in a real way.

  • Yes.

  • You know, I love this conversation because I feel like it’s not had enough and there’s

  • so much, like, flag waving.

  • You can do it!

  • Good job!

  • Whatever!”

  • Take the risk!”

  • And I’m like, you know, I grew up in a very financially conservativemy parents didn't

  • have a lot of money at all.

  • My mom could, like, take a dollar bill and, you know, stretch it for so long.

  • I would love to put your mom and my mom in a dollar bill stretching contest and just

  • see what they could do with it.

  • But I’m so thankful.

  • Me too.

  • So thankful for that.

  • Me too.

  • Because it’s guided and inspired and informed so many smart choices that I’ve made

  • Yeah.

  • ...that haven’t necessarily been easy but theyve made all the difference over the

  • long term.

  • Yeah.

  • I wanna shift gears and ask you something a little different for a moment if youre

  • if youre open to it.

  • So I wanna talk a little bit about your process as a speaker.

  • Ok.

  • Because myself, like, tens of millions of people have seen your TED talks but I also

  • had the great pleasure to see you in I guess Newark, New Jersey?

  • Oh, at the Oprah thing.

  • Oh, man.

  • Myself and

  • Elizabeth Gilbert!

  • That’s my fakethat’s what I do when I get up in the morning, I try to imagine

  • Oprah introducing me.

  • We just need to record it.

  • When I get out of the shower.

  • Can you just record it and put it on your iPhone so we have that?

  • But you were absolutelyyou were spectacular and I…

  • Oh, youre so kind to say so.

  • Thank you.

  • It’s the truth and I was with my dear friend Kris Carr and we were both sitting there and

  • wewe had loved you before, but we both looked at each other and were like, “Damn!

  • She just took it away.”

  • So my question for you is, a few questions if I may.

  • Yeah.

  • One, was that process of becoming a speaker as a writer, did it feel natural to you?

  • Like, did you have to go, “Ok, I have to figure this out now.”

  • Or did it…?

  • Right.

  • Yeah.

  • What was that like?

  • I’m first a writer, second a speaker.

  • Writing is easier for me and I’m sort of more at home there.

  • Writing is probablylike, when I’m sitting down writing even if it’s not going well,

  • that is the place in the world where I feel like I am the least full of shit.

  • You know what I mean?

  • Like, that most authentic version of yourself where youre not selling anything, youre

  • not trying anything, youre not putting anything on, youre just sitting in your

  • truth of who you are.

  • That’s what I feel like when I’m writing.

  • Speaking, you are selling something in a way because youit’s this very different

  • kind of way of interacting and so I’ve really had to learn how to do it.

  • Andlike, for instance, the first time when Eat, Pray, Love first came out, the first

  • time somebody had me give a speech, I had a speech on a piece of paper and I went and

  • read it at a podium because I didn't know.

  • Yeah.

  • You know?

  • And I stood there and I read those words that I wrote and I turned the page and every once

  • in awhile I looked up and

  • As you do.

  • As you do.

  • And it wasthat’s a way that you can give a speech, but even as I was doing it

  • I was thinking, “Oh, this isn’t how you do this because nobody wants to sit in a chair

  • and be read to for 40 minutes.

  • So you don't get to do it this way anymore.”

  • You know?

  • Youre gonna have to find a way to be here the whole time, because they don't wanna

  • see the top of your head.”

  • Yeah.

  • And they want something else.”

  • Right?

  • So that was the beginning of changing it.

  • And then I started to work with being sort of lighter with it and kind of giving myself

  • an outline and then just sort of telling stories rather than reading them because it’s a…

  • it’s a whole different kind of thing.

  • Yeah, I was gonna say, do you mind if we hang out here for a minute?

  • No, no.

  • I’m happy to.

  • Because when I heard you speak it was as though I waswhen I say this, I mean, your sentences,

  • I was like, that’s literally what had Kris and I like, “Woah.”

  • They were amazing.

  • And I was like, “I wonder if she scripted it,” not in a… but because I know you

  • cherish your words.

  • Yeah.

  • And I’m a person who loves words and so, you know, asas a person who is always

  • looking at how do people do what they do, it wasit was a curiosity point for me

  • because you did it exquisitely.

  • Well, youre very kind and I will tell you this, when Oprah Winfrey invites you to speak

  • at a stadium tour, you prepare.

  • Yes.

  • And I worked on that speech for 6 months and what you heard me saying

  • Yes.

  • ...was memorized.

  • Well, but

  • That was me just reading a poem that was memorized in my wholeat 45, 50 minutes was just

  • a memorized piece of paper.

  • But I want you to hear this from an audience member, like, you were so connected and that's

  • why I wanted to ask you about this because your presence and your delivery and, again,

  • as someonewe just watch, I observe so many things of like, she was so in it.

  • And I…

  • I could feel in my cells and in my bones, I was like, “That took a tremendous amount

  • of work.”

  • It’s a huge amount of work.

  • A huge amount of work.

  • I was walking.

  • The only way I can learn a speech is to walk it into my bones, so I was walking, like,

  • 5 miles a day on the side of the road giving that speech for 4 months.

  • You know, like, that’s how much I put into it.

  • And the other thing is, I had this really incredible moment the day before the first

  • one of those, because it was an 8 city tour.

  • Yes.

  • And it’s scary, it’s Oprah Winfrey.

  • She’s sitting in the front row.

  • Like, I invited you, I trusted you with my audience, who trusts me with their lives.

  • Go ahead.

  • What do you got?

  • And youre like

  • 20 thousand people.

  • Yeah.

  • I’m not used to speaking to.

  • I mean, who is?

  • Like, a place where, like, Bon Jovi plays.

  • You know?

  • Yeah.

  • Soso for me there’s this great thing, there’s this great sense of this doubt of

  • am I worthy, do I belong here.

  • And I was backstage about 15 minutes before I went on physically shaking.

  • Andand then I had this thought where I thought, “You know what, Liz?

  • They don't need your fear, because they have their own.

  • Like, that is the one thing they don't need.

  • Because they haveeveryone who’s in that audience has all the fear theyre ever gonna

  • need.

  • So youre not gonnaif you bring them your fear, youre bringing them, like, it’s

  • coals to Newcastle.”

  • Yes.

  • Ice to eskimos.

  • That they have.

  • They don't need your insecurity.

  • Again, theyve got it covered.

  • They don't need your sense of low self worth, they don't need your questioning of whether

  • you belong.

  • Believe me, they know those feelings.

  • Here’s whathere’s what you got hired to do today.

  • Is to model to them dignity and composure and grace and female autonomy.

  • So they need you to come out and stand in your female body on that stage in front of

  • 25 thousand people with an unshaking voice and speak about courage, because that’s

  • what they came here for.

  • And if you bring them anything less than that, youre doing a tremendous disservice.”

  • And there are times in our lives where we do serve by showing our vulnerability and

  • our fear.

  • Not that day.

  • Not that day.

  • Like, that’s it.

  • And I was like, “Oprah Winfrey is the person in the world you admire the most, she thinks

  • you can do this, she’s not an idiot.

  • Do it.”

  • You know?

  • And bring them what they don't have.

  • Don't bring them what they already have.

  • Well, can I tell you, you did it.

  • Thank you.

  • And you brought it, like, to the nth power.

  • Thank you.

  • It was absolutely genius.

  • And thank you for just sharing the behind the scenes because I feel like that’s another

  • piece of the puzzle where you can see someone and people can see you or theyll see the

  • show and they have these ideas that it’s so easy.

  • Oh, she’s a really good speaker.”

  • Yeah, she’s really good.

  • She probably, you know, just made that up like the past week or whatever.”

  • Yeah.

  • And most often I find that that’s not true, that folks out there who are thinking about

  • their own dreams or thinking about upleveling a skill or stretching themselves into a new

  • zone, you know, it’s so incredibly generous of you to be able to share that because it

  • gives people like, “Oh, ok.

  • Liz felt that.”

  • I wish there was a shortcut to all of it.

  • Like, every single thing that’s of value that I’ve ever experienced in my life, I’m

  • always looking for the how to hotwire it.

  • Like, there’s gotta be a way to do this withoutnah.

  • None of it.

  • Spiritual growth, personal growth, relationships, physical health.

  • Like, there’s not one single piece of it where you're like, “There’s a way to

  • there’s a way to get to the top of this without actually putting anything in.”

  • Yeah, yeah.

  • No, totally.

  • There's no hack.

  • There’s no hack.

  • And I actually hate that.

  • That word is becoming on the top of my pet peeve list, everyone trying to hack things.

  • And I’m like, “Stop it, stop it.

  • Just do the work.”

  • Yeah.

  • By the way, hackers.

  • How do you think they got so good at hacking?

  • They sat there in their bedrooms for, like, 20 years learning how to hack.

  • Like, that, like, there is no such thing as a hacker who just woke up one day and was

  • like, “I know how to get into the Pentagon.”

  • You know?

  • Like, these guys are reallytheyre like really skilled.

  • They put the time in.

  • They totally did.

  • So that word doesn't even really work for what we think it means.

  • I wanna go to the power of finishing.

  • Because you said something, another genius gem from Big Magic, about, you know, I don't

  • want it to be perfect, I want it to be finished.

  • Yes.

  • And that is another one of those things where I’ll hear from folks it’s like there’s,

  • you know, 15 half created bridges, half things that are just half done and it tortures them

  • and theyre afraid to start something new because they haven't really developed the

  • habit of getting something out there even if it’s not totally perfect.

  • Oh, man.

  • This is a huge one.

  • This is a really huge one for women because it’s all rooted in perfectionism, which

  • is, of course, the murderer of all good things.

  • Perfectionism is justit’s a serial killer.

  • It just goes around killing joy, spontaneity, wonder, grace, humility, it just kills it

  • all.

  • And perfectionism I think is a particularly dangerous kind of fear, I always call perfectionism

  • fear in high heeled shoes, because it’s fancy.

  • It’s like a really fancy haute couture version of fear because perfectionism can advertise

  • itself as a virtue and it can trick you into letting it think that it’s… it makes you

  • special.

  • Yes.

  • Because people

  • You have such high standards.

  • Yeah, I have such high standards.

  • I’m like, look, I just can’t rest until something

  • I’m a perfectionist.

  • It’s what people say in job interviews as their fault.

  • Yeah.

  • You know, well, I guess I just care too much.

  • You know?

  • And youre like

  • And youre like, “Wow, youre telling me…” but what youre telling me when

  • you say that is that it’s gonna be very hard for you not only to finish something,

  • but probably to begin something.

  • Because the true perfectionist won’t even start because they know already that it’s

  • not gonna be the thing that they cantheyre dreaming of.

  • And their tastes and their standards are so high.

  • I… there’s this woman I recently was talking to who’s… who wrote a very successful

  • book maybe 15 or 20 years ago and hasn't been able to write another book since.

  • And I was talking to her about it and she said, “You know, the world’s just so full

  • of crap work and I just don't wanna put another piece of crap on the crap pile.

  • So I just won't release this thing until I feel like it’s perfect.”

  • And I said to her, “I am so glad I never took that on as my problem if the world is

  • full of garbage.

  • Like, how is that your responsibility?

  • It’s notthis is not your problem.”

  • And I was like, “It’s not my problem if my work isn’t good.

  • You know?

  • It’s not my problem.

  • It’s not even my fault.

  • Like, it’s not my problem.”

  • My problemthe contract that I made, the only way I finished my first novel, because

  • it wasn’t good because I’d never written a novel before.

  • So why would it be good?

  • Who, like, wakes up and knows how to write a novel?

  • So I was 50 pages into this thing and I’m 25 years old and it’s not good and it’s

  • notand I know what a good novel is, and it’s not.

  • This isn’t working.

  • And, you know, every dignified part of me wants to just put it in the bottom of the

  • drawer and walk away.

  • And then I just had, like, this, like, warrior moment and I just remember exactly where I

  • was standing and I stood up and I said out, “I never promised the universe I would be

  • a good writer.

  • I just promised the universe I would be a writer.

  • That is the only thing I committed to.

  • This is not my problem.”

  • And I just sort of said to, like, the faeries and the geniuses, I was like, “If you guys

  • want it to be good youre gonna have to chip something in here because this is what

  • this is what I can do.

  • If you want to add something, feelany time, you know, feel free.”

  • And the other commitment I made was I do not wanna go to my grave with 50 pages of an unfinished

  • novel in a drawer.

  • There’s enough of that in the world.

  • You know?

  • And the other thing was this voice where I was anticipating the criticism because I knew

  • what the criticism would be because I knew where it wasn’t good.

  • And I just said out loud to all my future critics at that moment, I don't know what

  • kind of language I can use on your show.

  • Every kind of language.

  • Were from Jersey, girl.

  • I said, “If you don't like it, go write your own fucking book.

  • And you know what?

  • You won’t.

  • Guess what?

  • You won’t.

  • You won’t.

  • And guess what?

  • I did and, therefore, I won.”

  • Yes.

  • Because mine’s finished and yours doesn't even exist and now youre criticizing my…”

  • this is like an imaginary conversation, by the way, with people who have never heard

  • of me.

  • Yeah.

  • You know, but that’s how I got through that first book was just like I just want it done

  • because as my mother always taught me, done is better than good.

  • You know?

  • The world is full of a bunch of really, really good not done stuff.

  • Yes.

  • And if you can just finish something, youre already, like, 10 miles ahead of everybody

  • else because most people won't.

  • And what will make you finish it is not discipline, but self forgiveness.

  • Because we all start our project on day one with the same level of excitement.

  • And on day 2 we all look at what we wrote on day 1 and we all hate ourselves.

  • Because what we wrote on day one isor did on day one, whatever our creativity is,

  • is horrible.

  • Horrible.

  • And the people who go on day 3 and pick it up again and start over are not the most disciplined.

  • It’s not rigor that’s gonna get you there, it’s saying, “Alright then, I’m not

  • I’m not Hemingway.

  • I’m just gonna do what I can.”

  • And you forgive yourself for disappointing yourself and you go and you do more.

  • And that’s it, it’s just like a little bit of humanity towards your poor self.

  • Yeah.

  • I’ll tell you, that’s the thing I need to remind myself of the most because I have

  • this thing in me, I can go into that driving place and, again, that’s why I love your

  • book so much.

  • Let’s move on to hungry ghosts and failure, because we all fail.

  • And I love the quote from Clive James: “Failure has a function.

  • It asks you if you really wanna go on making things.”

  • Oh, I love that line so much.

  • Ok, so the other day I was at an event and a woman stood up and she said, “I’m so

  • furious at inspiration and creativity right now,” which is a really powerful way to

  • start a statement.

  • Yes.

  • Really caught my attention.

  • And she said, “Because I did the thing that everybody tells you to do.

  • I risked everything.

  • I quit my job, I believed in my dream, I followed my bliss, I got a whole bunch of people to

  • come along with me on this project that I wanted to do and it totally failed.

  • And I lost money and I lost friends and I lost dignity and I lost faith and I’m furious.”

  • And I said, “Whowho are you mad at?”

  • And she said, “I’m mad at inspiration because I did my part and it didn't come through

  • for me.”

  • And, in other words, she jumped and the net didn't catch her.

  • Right?

  • Andand it was such a, like, I could feel her pain so much, it was like a hard person

  • to kind of handle because she was just, like, all shards of glass at that point because

  • she was feeling so broken.

  • And I said, “But when did inspiration promise you anything?”

  • Like, I know bumper stickers promise you things and people promise you things, but when did

  • inspiration itself ever promise a human being anything?

  • Other than the amazing experience of working with it and dancing with it for a little while.

  • That’s all it ever promises you is I will let you near me and were gonna go and do

  • this thing.

  • So when inspiration says to you, “Let’s do this wild, amazing thing together,” and

  • you say, “Yeah, let’s do it,” and you grab it by its hand like Thelma and Louise

  • and you just drive off that cliff with it and inspiration is like, “Wee!” and youre

  • like, “Wee!” and maybe itll catch you and then youll be like, “That was amazing,”

  • or maybe youre gonna, like, hit the ground and bust into 100 pieces.

  • And then youre gonna be like, “What just happ…?

  • Like, I thought we were a team.”

  • At that point inspiration is sitting next to you sort of on the beach under the cliff

  • looking at your broken body with this big grin on its face and it’s gonna say only

  • one thing to you, and that thing is, “Wanna do it again?

  • You wanna do itshould we do itthat was awesome.

  • Should we do it again?”

  • And youre like, “I’m in tra

  • I’m in, like, I’m in a body cast because that failure that I just had hurt so much.”

  • And inspiration is like, “But, yeah, youbut wasn’t that kind of amazing?

  • Don't you wanna do it again?”

  • And you may say, “No, I never wanna do it again,” and that’s totally your choice.

  • Or you may say, “I need a few months to kind of sew myself back together again from

  • not having stuck that landing.”

  • You know?

  • But every morning I guarantee you youll wake up bruised and hurt and shamed and inspiration

  • will be like, “Hey, wanna do it again?

  • Should we do that thing again?”

  • Great friend.

  • And one of these days youll be like, “Oh, let’s do it again.”

  • I mean, were only here for such a short time.

  • Yes.

  • Let’s drive off another cliff.

  • You know?

  • But as you go into that more and more you might find ways to kind of, like, put airbags

  • in the car.

  • Like, there are protective measures that you can take to make sure that when you fail maybe

  • you don't lose everything.

  • Yes.

  • You know?

  • That you have some sort of room and cushion so that you can fail, so that when inspiration

  • invites you to take another leap youre likedust yourself off, all my bones are

  • still intact, yeah.

  • Let’s do it.

  • Because there’s no better thing to spend your life doing than saying yes to that invitation.

  • Liz, I feel like you and I could talk for hours.

  • I’m gonna

  • I have 2 more things before I let you boogie.

  • Sure.

  • The creative paradox and making space for two mutually contradicting ideas, that I love

  • because I love the richness of paradox.

  • This idea that if my creativity must be the most important thing in the world to me and

  • it also must not matter at all.

  • Oh, jeez.

  • Ok, once again.

  • Yes.

  • Were all grownups here.

  • Yes.

  • I do believe that it is humanly possible for the human mind to hold two completely opposing

  • ideas as true at the same time.

  • I agree.

  • And this is why, for instance, I’m capable of being a completely rational, scientific,

  • empirical person who believes in evolution and global warming and reads The Science Times

  • and thinks it’s all fascinating and at the same time I can keep a place in my mind awake

  • and alive to mystery, magic, and miracle.

  • No problem.

  • Yes.

  • Like, I do not see this as a contradiction.

  • I have

  • I have a big mind, you have a big mind, we can do both of those things at the same time.

  • You know?

  • Andand so the paradox that you have to be able to hold onto comfortably if youre

  • gonna do any kind of creativity is exactly that.

  • As youre approaching it you have to approach it as though nothing matters more than this.

  • And then sometimes minutes later you have to be willing to throw it away and be like,

  • Eh, it doesn't matter.”

  • You know?

  • So, like, when I’m writing, that’s what I’m moving back and forth between all the

  • time is I’m sitting down and I’m like, “This sentence has to be the most beautifully

  • written sentence in the entire world and it is spiritually and artistically lazy of me

  • to bring anything less than that.”

  • And I’m, like, laboring over this sentence and I’m trying to bringand I love it

  • and then I go back later and read the paragraph and realize that it actually doesn't work.

  • And then I’m like, “Ah, screw it.”

  • So, like, you love it and then you dismiss it.

  • Yes.

  • You love it and then you dismiss it.

  • It is notthe thing is, your work hasone of the big problems that I’ve seen,

  • I talk about this in Big Magic too, is when people refer to their work as their baby.

  • It ain’t your baby.

  • It ain’t your baby, it’s not a human baby.

  • It’s not a human baby.

  • There’s a lot of differences between this book and a human baby.

  • Like, for instance, this.

  • Watch.

  • Like, oh my God.

  • You’d arrest me if I did that to a human baby.

  • But I can totally do that.

  • I can do that.

  • I can rip pages out of it, it’s just a thing.

  • It’s just a thing I made.

  • It’s not a baby.

  • And it’s independent of me now.

  • Yes.

  • Because it’s finished, so it doesn't need me.

  • Yes.

  • And people can attack it and they can criticize it, they can misunderstand it, they can steal

  • parts of it, they can do all sorts of stuff that you wouldn't do to a human baby.

  • And it will be fine and I will be fine because there’s a difference between me and this

  • thing.

  • Right?

  • So as much as I cared about it while I wrote it, now I have to kind of not care about it.

  • And what I also have to recognize is if anything I have been its baby because everything that

  • I am and everything that I have learned and everything that I have been and become in

  • my life is because of the creative things that I made.

  • In other words, they were making me.

  • Right?

  • That’s why you have to let your creativity out is because it has you as a project.

  • It’s building you.

  • It’s creating you.

  • So it’s not the other way around.

  • So, like, don't get all precious about the thing you made.

  • Get precious about it while youre making it, because that’s the part where you can

  • and should be precious.

  • Once it’s done, bleh.

  • Kick it to the curb and make another one.

  • You know?

  • Youre out.

  • It’s like youre old enough to drive, you know?

  • You don't need me anymore.

  • You know?

  • Like, just let it go.

  • Buy your own lunch.

  • Exactly.

  • Under this roof?

  • Notyou know, like, that’s the sort of tone that I think is appropriate.

  • But don't be like that as youre doing it.

  • Because as youre doing it love it, cherish it, and then forget about it.

  • Forget about it.

  • True Jersey style.

  • So I wanna leave on what I think was maybe the most valuable thing for me, is your distinction

  • between being a martyr and being a trickster as it relates to creativity because I feel

  • like I was schooled in the pain aspect of it.

  • Even though I’m a pretty joyful, fun, playful person

  • Right.

  • ...somehow if I sit down to write or create something new it’s like, “Ooh, I’ve

  • gotta suit up and this is gonna be…”

  • This is gonna hurt.

  • This is gonna hurt.

  • This is gonna hurt.

  • Ok, so I think there are two kinds of creators in the world: there are the martyrs and the

  • tricksters.

  • And most of us were schooled in martyrdom.

  • You know, we come out of a pretty heavy Christian Germanic, romantic tradition that says by

  • your suffering you shall be redeemed, really.

  • Andand your scars are the badges of honor that show how seriously you take your life.

  • And how much you destroy yourself and everyone around you in the process of making something

  • shows us how seriously you take your work.

  • I reject it.

  • I reject it.

  • The other way is the trickster way.

  • And so the martyr walks around saying, “I will do this even if it kills me,” and the

  • trickster says, “I didn't come here to suffer.”

  • You know?

  • And the martyr says, “By my wounds I shall be known,” and the trickster says, “Pick

  • a card, any card.”

  • The trickster is playing with this whole thing the entire time.

  • You know, the martyr says, “I’m gonna end up in a broken heap andand that’s

  • how youll know that I was serious.”

  • And the trickster says, “I’m gonna walk off with your girl while you're doing that.”

  • The martyr is like Sir Thomas Moore and the trickster is Bugs Bunny who’s always looking

  • at how to sort of subvert and do things differently and do things more playfully and do things

  • in a transgressive way.

  • You know?

  • And that, I feel like, is where the instinct for art originally came from.

  • Because art does that, it turns things upside down, it looks at things sideways, it plays

  • with things, itit de-sanctifies the holy thing.

  • Yes.

  • See, the martyrdom is all about this kind of sanctity that is so heavy that it will

  • break you.

  • And the tricksterdom is like what if we don't have to treat this thing like it’s a holy,

  • sacred relic?

  • What if I turnwhat if I, like, put sparkles on it?

  • What if I…?

  • You know?

  • I get out my bedazzler.

  • What if I just get my glue gun andand justyou know?

  • Like, what if nothing’s holy and everything’s allowed?

  • That’s what art has been asking for centuries, even holy, even sacred art has been asking.

  • You know, even the Sistine Chapel has a bunch of little, like, winks from Michelangelo like,

  • What if the Pope is not infallible?

  • What if I, like, give him donkey ears?

  • What if I…?”

  • Yes.

  • You know, there’s always, like, this sort of playfulness that art wants to do.

  • And all we wanna do is take it so seriously that we kill it and often ourselves in the

  • process.

  • And so if you can learn how to dance with the trickster part of yourself, which is in

  • you because we all have martyr in us and we all have trickster in us.

  • Andand trust.

  • That’s the thing about the trickster, the trickster trusts the universe.

  • Trusts that if the trickster takes the ball, throws it into the universe, the trickster

  • knows it’s coming back.

  • It might come back 3 years from now, it might come back in a hailstorm of, like, 20 balls,

  • it might come back, like, in some really comic, strange way, but if you engage therell

  • be a response.

  • And the only thing the trickster wants to spend its life doing is playing with that

  • sense of, like, put it out there, see what happens.

  • Put it out there, see what happens.

  • And it’s just a more fun way to live that isn’t quite so heavy and isn’t quite so

  • macho.

  • Andand that’s the way that I’ve always wanted to engage with my work.

  • And whenever I catch myself being the martyr I’m like, “Are you falling for this?

  • Are you falling for this thing that says the only way that you can be creative is to suffer?

  • Because you know better, right?”

  • And then we trick our way out of it.

  • Liz Gilbert, you are a treasure.

  • Thank you.

  • You are so sweet to say so.

  • It’s the truth as I know it.

  • Thank you so much for being here.

  • Everyone, I mean, I couldn’t love this book more.

  • I really do think it’s required reading for all human beings, and especially if youre

  • wanting to create anything in your life.

  • So thank you so much for being here.

  • You are so welcome.

  • Let’s hope that all human beings buy it.

  • Read Big Magic.

  • Woo hoo!

  • That’s so lovely.

  • Youre so, so, so sweet and I love this conversation.

  • Thank you.

  • Now Liz and I would love to hear from you.

  • There was so much good stuff in this episode, so I want to know what was the most significant

  • thing for you as it relates to your creativity and bringing your dreams to life?

  • Now, as always, the best discussions happen after the episode over at MarieForleo.com,

  • so go there and leave a comment now.

  • Did you like this video?

  • I have to tell you, this is one of my all time favorites.

  • If you like it, consider subscribing to our channel, because it’s awesome, and share

  • this with all your friends.

  • And if you want even more great resources to create a business and life that you love,

  • plus some personal insights from me that I only talk about in email, come on over to

  • MarieForleo.com and sign up for email updates.

  • Stay on your game and keep going for your dreams because the world needs that special

  • gift that only you have.

  • Thank you so much for watching and I’ll catch you next time on MarieTV.

In this episode of MarieTV we do have some adult language.

Subtitles and vocabulary

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