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  • I'm Alexander Heffner, your host on The Open Mind.

  • At the time of our taping, today's guest was

  • nominated to be a new member of

  • Board of Directors of the Corporation for

  • National and Community Service.

  • So I first want to congratulate Eric Liu.

  • And in addition, the Aspen Institute has named him

  • Leader for a new Program on American Citizenship & Identity.

  • A former advisor and speech writer to

  • President Clinton and author of the recently published

  • A Chinaman's Chance, Eric Liu is CEO of Citizen University.

  • He founded the Seattle-based organization

  • to cultivate the values, knowledge,

  • and skills of effective citizenship.

  • Liu's Aspen project has a three prong mission ...

  • (1) to articulate an ethical framework for American civic identity,

  • (2) to propose public policy for societal cohesion, and

  • (3) to teach leaders to build coalitions that overcome divides.

  • While innovative programs have emerged,

  • like Liu's work and former Justice Sandra Day O'Connor's iCivics program,

  • in our schools there's decreased emphasis on the

  • importance of good citizenship.

  • Liu embarks on his work with the Aspen Institute

  • to reinvigorate the civic core of America,

  • as the nation continues to be plagued by stunning

  • apathy and illiteracy.

  • But I do want to ask Eric Liu to explain,

  • how we avoid our civic demise?

  • Thank you for being here, Eric.

  • LIU: Alexander, thank you for having me.

  • HEFFNER: How do we avoid that?

  • LIU: (Laugh) You know we avoid it by not treating

  • it as a thing that's happening outside us.

  • One, one of my core precepts of citizenship,

  • of, of life really, is, is the idea that society

  • becomes how you behave. Right.

  • And in some ways this, you know,

  • on the one hand it seems sort of like a common

  • place, common sense thing to say,

  • but if you actually sit with it and think about it

  • for a moment ... it runs quite contrary to a lot of

  • the messages we get in American life.

  • The dominant messages we get in American life are essentially

  • a) every man for himself,

  • b) I, I should be able to do whatever the heck

  • I want as long as I'm not actively harming somebody else.

  • Don't, don't tread on me, right ... that,

  • that's the main message.

  • And "Don't tread on me" is,

  • of course, you know, part of the big bang

  • of American creation.

  • But it's not really a guide for how to live in community. Right.

  • It's not really a guide for how to be a grown up,

  • pro-social human in, in a society.

  • And so I think when you think about society

  • becomes how you behave ... if you choose to be

  • engaged or disengaged, if you choose to be civil or

  • uncivil, if you choose to be compassionate or not

  • compassionate, courteous or not courteous,

  • it's not just about you ... it's not just that,

  • you know, if ... okay I'm going to be selfish today.

  • And someone else's altruism will cancel out

  • my selfishness, it will all work out just fine. No.

  • If you choose to be selfish,

  • it is as contagious as a virus.

  • Your selfishness affects, gives permission to people

  • all around, it changes norms and mores around you

  • in ways that are completely viral, right?

  • And so when it comes to something like this,

  • about apathy and civic decline,

  • we can't treat this as kind of exogenous to us. Right?

  • It, it's part of us.

  • And so if we want to change that,

  • if we want a politics that is more responsive,

  • if we want a civic life where people show up more

  • for each other, guess what ... we got to do that,

  • each one of us. Right?

  • And I think that's the ... there's a great billboard

  • that I once saw that captures this,

  • this ethic, Alexander, it was on a,

  • the side of a really congested highway ...

  • it might have been I-5, you know,

  • out West where I'm from ... and you know,

  • traffic was basically a parking lot,

  • nothing was moving.

  • And this billboard said, "You're not stuck in

  • traffic ... you are traffic" ... right ... and,

  • and that to me encapsulates the spirit of ...

  • you're not separate from the problem if there is a

  • problem, you are part of the problem and either you

  • are actively working to solve it,

  • or to, to move it in the other direction ...

  • or you are contributing to it.

  • And so when it comes to civic decline or voting,

  • for instance, there is no such thing as not participating. Right?

  • Not participating is participating in a

  • noxious, harmful direction.

  • HEFFNER: But to what extent can this idea of

  • rugged individualism comport with crafting

  • a civic identity?

  • LIU: You know, I think the,

  • (coughs) the history of the United States is a

  • history of melding exactly those two things.

  • You know we aren't ...

  • HEFFNER: But they're in conflict right now.

  • LIU: They're, they're in tension ...

  • they're in tension.

  • You know America is a set of constant,

  • continuing tensions and arguments. Right?

  • A tension between one notion of liberty ...

  • which is "Don't tread on me" and the idea of equality. Right?

  • There's all ... there's an inherent tension there.

  • There's a tension between rugged individualism

  • and "we're all in it together." Right?

  • But these things I don't think of as mutually exclusive.

  • What American life is all about is trying to figure

  • out at different times the tug and the pull between

  • those things and whether we've gone too far in one

  • direction or another.

  • But when you think ... again,

  • about the Founding generation and,

  • and we, today, in the, you know,

  • in the 21st century like to think about the

  • founders and that whole cohort as these radical

  • individualists, as if each of them was just an

  • atomistic, you know, libertarian paragon.

  • No, that entire Colonial generation was steeped in

  • a deep sense of communitarianism,

  • in a deep sense of relationship and obligation,

  • in a deep sense that every right that you

  • might have or exercise or claim,

  • was bound up with a big set of responsibilities, too. Right?

  • And somehow, over ... particularly the last few

  • decades in American life, the responsibilities half

  • of that equation has, has fallen away and it's just

  • "rights, rights, rights".

  • HEFFNER: You identify an important word in our

  • political lexicon, communitarianism as

  • opposed to collectivism which has been demonized by the Right.

  • So how do you strife for that concept

  • in an apolitical way?

  • And how are you going to carry that forward in your

  • Aspen Institute work?

  • LIU: Well, again, this is, this not a word that

  • either I have coined or an idea that I have invented.

  • Communitarianism is how Plymouth Colony got built.

  • Communitarianism is how barns got raised

  • across the American West.

  • Communitarianism is how the,

  • the men who landed on Normandy Beach ... ah,

  • on Omaha Beach in Normandy ... managed to turn the tide

  • of history on D-Day.

  • Communitarianism is how people of all races and

  • classes and backgrounds came together during the

  • Civil Rights Movement to redeem the creed

  • of the United States. Right?

  • So, this is not some foreign Communistic,

  • you know, un-American Socialist thing.

  • This is how, essentially, every time this country

  • has made progress, it's because we've taken a big

  • old dose of a spirit of community.

  • And a big old dose of remembering that when we ...

  • that we're better together.

  • HEFFNER: Well, that's, that's a great campaign

  • mantra, but unfortunately in our politics

  • and in our schools, I might add, there is an absence

  • of that leadership, that direction

  • towards communitarianism.

  • LIU: This new program that,

  • that I've launched at the Aspen Institute on

  • Citizenship and American identity is really meant

  • to address that question on a few different levels.

  • So, it's not so much about classroom activity,

  • although I'm very interested in things like

  • what you mentioned at the outset,

  • iCivics.org, the, the online platform that

  • Justice O'Connor has created in retirement from

  • the Supreme Court where the middle school kids can

  • play, essentially video games to learn different

  • aspects of civics.

  • All that is great.

  • What we're going to focus on at Aspen is how we

  • change the culture. Right.

  • Aspen, the Aspen Institute is a,

  • is an incredible platform and hub of leaders from

  • every sector in the United States and around the world.

  • My, my focus is here on the U.S.

  • You know, leaders from media and the arts,

  • leaders from politics, leaders from business,

  • leaders from philanthropy. Right.

  • And, you know, your question of how do we form

  • a norm, basically, you know my theory of action

  • is basically simultaneously,

  • you know, from the top and from the middle out. Right.

  • From the top ... it does ... leadership does matter.

  • Making sure that we cultivate new cohorts

  • of leaders across different sectors who speak

  • this language of community.

  • Who are grounded in the ethics and the values that

  • are inherent in different parts of the American creed. Right.

  • Who, who recognize that the history of this

  • country is, is one that properly told is about

  • this interplay of community and individual liberty. Right.

  • And that's just ... as you say,

  • it's a language that is essentially abandoned in

  • how we form leaders in every sector today,

  • not just in our schools, but in our adult institutions.

  • And so part of what we want to do is basically

  • to be convening leaders across all different

  • sectors and giving, giving them permission in way

  • that modern life doesn't give them to do a big,

  • deep dive ethically, morally,

  • historically on what the content of our citizenship

  • is here in the United States. Right?

  • And to remind themselves, and to be reminded by others

  • of, of this dimension of communitarianism.

  • The other piece though that's more "middle out"

  • is really finding ways to reach Americans where they are. Right.

  • And, and sometimes, you know,

  • the realty of our times, one of the reasons why

  • I wanted to launch this program at Aspen is ...

  • it's not just as you allude to that there's a gradual

  • decline in civil knowledge in this country,

  • but it comes at a moment where we are experiencing

  • some of the most radical, severe,

  • income inequality, wealth concentration and,

  • and essentially just social fragmentation in

  • this country than we've seen in a good long time.

  • And it becomes more necessary than ever for us

  • to figure out what's the new story of us? Right.

  • And so a big part of what we're going to do in this

  • Aspen Program on Citizenship and American

  • identity is going to different parts of the

  • country and essentially asking folks

  • "What is the story you tell of America?"

  • How do you define America?

  • How do you define American?

  • And ... this is a moment where people need,

  • again, to be both given permission and a little

  • prodding to do that reflection because the

  • answer, the story is not the same story that you

  • might have given two, three, four decades ago.

  • There was a time when to be American was to be White,

  • to become American was to quote

  • "become White, to try to become White" and,

  • and that was the end of the story.

  • People didn't particularly question it.

  • But today in this age of both demographic flux and,

  • and inequality, there's a bigger story to be told.

  • One that's more inclusive, and one that has to reckon

  • with 21st century demography.

  • HEFFNER: So in a sense, we've re-invented our

  • culture already, but we need the norms to,

  • to be able to sustain it.

  • And to, and to thrive.

  • LIU: We need the norms, we need the story,

  • we need the language and we need habits. Right?

  • I mean this is a lot about practice.

  • You know, we were talking before the cameras rolled

  • about what's so great about New York and though

  • I live in Seattle now, I was,

  • I was born in Poughkeepsie and spent a lot of time

  • here in the city and every time I'm back I'm reminded

  • in this very visceral way that my,

  • my entire spirit of patriotism,

  • of American patriotism turns out to be a

  • particularly New York brand of patriotism.

  • Like this idea of "We will take people from every

  • corner of the planet.

  • We will fuse them together,

  • we will create wild new hybrids,

  • we will be tolerant, we will be aggressive,

  • we will be bumping up against each other,

  • but we will form something greater than the sum of

  • the parts by doing this."

  • That's not some bland kind of melting down,

  • melting pot where we all become sort of beige-ish,

  • brown-ish, right, but recognizes this incredible

  • diversity and makes something out of it. Right.

  • That is a ... people aren't born knowing how to do that.

  • You have to have a culture that forms ...

  • you have to have leaders, you have to have institutions

  • that create shared experiences, whether it's national

  • service or other things that allow people across

  • different backgrounds to come and experience life together.

  • And you have to be able to,

  • again, reinforce over and over again a story

  • of America, a story of this kind of community that

  • people can kind of locate themselves in.

  • HEFFNER: Will your program answer this question?

  • Which is ... is the apathy localized just as much as

  • it is a national phenomenon?

  • Because if you ask public servants,

  • or aspiring public servants,

  • they'll tell you that you can really infuse from

  • that local perspective the national political

  • discourse with energy, vitality and,

  • and deep care about the issues.

  • You mention voting.

  • It's atrocious what, what's going on nationally.

  • The, the evidence is not there to support that

  • locally it's any better.

  • So as you visit these communities what do you

  • hope to find and how do you,

  • how do you hope to bridge the local with the national?

  • LIU: Well, it's a great question.

  • I, I do think we're in this very interesting age,

  • partly because national politics has become so

  • dysfunctional and stuck and broken.

  • But partly also just because deeper tectonic

  • shifts are happening with technology and other

  • things that make this much less an age about

  • everybody flowing to the center and,

  • and thinking that all action must happen in the

  • nation's capital and we, we await what Washington tells us. Right.

  • This is an age, this is a networked age.

  • It is not a spokes to the hub age.

  • This is a network age where there are nodes all

  • over the country of civic action,

  • of, of power, of ... kind of culture creation. Right?

  • And, and cities end up being the most powerful,

  • impactful nodes in this age of networked power.

  • And I think that on issue after issue whether,

  • you know, in my town, in Seattle,

  • we not too long ago moved and enacted a $15 minimum wage. Right.

  • That's literally unthinkable in national

  • politics in, in the Congress.

  • They, they can't even move to deal with $10 ... $10.10.

  • But, but in Seattle, it is possible,

  • it is possible to build a coalition of business

  • people and labor.

  • It is possible to build public support

  • for something like that.

  • And when we did that in Seattle,

  • we didn't do it in some little bubble,

  • you know, off in the Northwest corner of the country.

  • We did it while consulting with and learning from

  • allies in other cities.

  • We talked to folks in New York,

  • we talked to folks in Chicago,

  • we talked to people in San Francisco

  • who've been raising the wage.

  • We talked to people in San Jose and all around the

  • country who've been figuring out in ways that

  • are locally appropriate to them how they activate

  • citizens to engage on something like raising the

  • wage and dealing with inequality that way. Right.

  • You may agree or disagree on raising the minimum

  • wage, but that's just an example.

  • There are plenty of people on the Right who have the

  • same realization and intuition that this is a

  • time where a lot of change can be happening locally

  • and where you can awaken citizens to engage in a

  • new way where they feel like they have agency and

  • can see some results of their interaction more

  • powerfully at the local scale than at the national.

  • HEFFNER: I mean ... Seattle of course,

  • has a reputation for being a progressive hub and

  • that's where your university is based,

  • your organization.

  • What transpired there in terms of your own

  • engagement in the non-profit sector that

  • could be useful for other states,

  • cities and localities to consider moving forward?

  • LIU: That's another great question.

  • You know, I think ... of course,

  • every city has its very distinctive,

  • unique assets and ecosystem,

  • but one of the things about Seattle that

  • I feel like other cities in the country can either learn

  • from or borrow ... is a spirit of coalition.

  • And I'll give you a very specific example.

  • Around, around race. Right.

  • So, Seattle is a community that has ...

  • people of color, but not in the same numbers

  • and proportions as you might see in Los Angeles or New York or,

  • or some other cities. Right.

  • And one of the features of Seattle's civic and

  • political and ethnic life is essentially that there

  • are not enough Asian Americans,

  • or African Americans or Latinos or Native

  • Americans for each group alone essentially

  • to go its own way. Right.

  • For each group alone to just be its own force in

  • politics and disregard the others.

  • But there are enough for ... if those four communities

  • and other, you know, non-majority mainstream

  • communities ban together, in coalition,

  • as a block, they can really have force and

  • voice and presence in Seattle civic life and politics.

  • And that's precisely what's happened

  • over the last few decades.

  • And it took ... again, it took some leadership ...

  • you know, starting in the late sixties,

  • early seventies there were these four leaders who

  • alternately are called "The Gang of Four",

  • "The Four Amigos", a guy named Larry Gossett,

  • an African American leader who'd been a student

  • leader in, in the sixties, a guy named Roberto Maestas,

  • who founded a thing called El Centro de la Raza,

  • a guy named Bob Santos,

  • who is sort of the unofficial Mayor of the

  • Chinatown International District Neighborhood,

  • and a guy named Bernie Whitebear who'd been a

  • leader in the Native American community.

  • And these four guys 40 years ago basically

  • recognized this demographic reality and

  • decided "We have to stick together,

  • we have to work together, we have to support each other.

  • And we have to recognize that it's going to be sort

  • of a 'You know it's your turn to move on something

  • and we're going to get behind you.'

  • And later one will be my turn to move on something,

  • you're going to get behind me."

  • That's a remarkable thing and they created a culture

  • over these last decades of cross-racial community

  • and coalition to, to move things.

  • I think other cities could learn from that. Right.

  • And, you know, even in places like New York where

  • the politics and the ethnic politics can be so

  • much more fractious because each group does

  • have more have more might and voice on its own.

  • You recognize that, that "we're all better off when

  • we're all better off".

  • And sometimes when all you're doing is looking

  • out for your slice of the pie,

  • your people's piece, everybody ends up

  • a little bit net worse.

  • HEFFNER: But that's a disputed idea.

  • LIU: Which?

  • HEFFNER: And in the, in the American electorate

  • even that we're all better off,

  • when we're all better off.

  • I mean it's, it's a bit cliché, but it's, it's true,

  • that, that there are folks who dispute that ...

  • LIU: Of course.

  • HEFFNER: ... idea ...

  • LIU: Yeah.

  • HEFFNER: ... and it could be as many as 47%

  • that dispute that idea ...

  • LIU: (Laughter)

  • HEFFNER: ... I mean I don't know.

  • But when you engage communities on the Right

  • and on the Left I would, I wonder if there is ...

  • if they believe collectively there is an impetus for

  • Federal action to extrapolate from the

  • Seattle example Justice O'Connor's pleading with

  • us "We need a Constitutional Amendment

  • to encourage a civic awakening".

  • Do we need that?

  • LIU: I don't think we need a ... I mean ...

  • I don't think ... I don't know what a Constitutional Amendment would do ...

  • HEFFNER: To mandate the teaching of civics

  • she thinks that because our nation is

  • plagued with civic illiteracy we have to act

  • and we have to act boldly.

  • LIU: I don't think about this,

  • this piece as, you know the Federal government has

  • to tell everybody what to do.

  • I don't know that a Constitutional Amendment

  • would be the, the right vehicle for a revival

  • or reinvigoration of civic education.

  • However, I do think that, you know,

  • there's a word that has a little bit fallen out

  • of our vocabulary ... any student of immigration

  • history, any student of, say,

  • New York history would know well,

  • and that word is Americanization ... right ...

  • so a hundred years ago, you know during,

  • during the last great wave of immigration to the

  • United States, our schools,

  • our churches and houses of worship,

  • our community organizations,

  • settlement houses, all these different

  • institutions undertook a broad campaign of

  • Americanization ... to really take all of these

  • new immigrants, particularly from parts

  • of Europe that, that hadn't sent a lot of immigrants

  • to the United States before,

  • Southern Europe and, you know, places like

  • that ... and enmeshed them in history,

  • language, culture ... of the United States of America ... right.

  • Now, the problem with Americanization at that

  • time was that it, it was a very heavy-handed form

  • essentially of Waspification ... right.

  • You come here, you know Lithuanian Jewish ...

  • you come here Greek, you come here Italian,

  • like "Lose that ... lose your accent,

  • lose you ethnicity, stop being so ethnic ...

  • you know, you know, kind of make yourself a bit more WASP. Right.

  • That was the downside of that era's form of Americanization.

  • But there was another part of that program of

  • Americanization that was timeless and remains

  • necessary ... which was introducing people to the

  • idea that this is a country that has nothing

  • holding it together, but a creed.

  • Nothing holding it together but a set of

  • values that are embodied in a few documents,

  • a few pieces of parchment and paper and then becomes

  • a matter of practice and habit whether we breathe

  • life into them or not ... right.

  • Today, in the 21st century we need what I think of

  • as an Americanization 2.0 ... as a new form,

  • a new program of Americanization that

  • similarly activates schools,

  • faith organizations, non-profit groups,

  • community based organizations,

  • all different kinds of institutions to engage

  • this generations immigrants in,

  • in reminding them that "Hey,

  • this is not just some random free trade zone

  • where you arrive and you get to do what you want.

  • There is a coherent 'us' here a coherent story

  • and a coherent tradition that you are entering into

  • and it behooves you, it behooves all of us

  • for us to be steeped in that."

  • And 21st century Americanization can be

  • more inclusive, more, you know,

  • embracing of the facts of diversity,

  • but it's still the necessary thing to do

  • and I think, you know, both at the Aspen program

  • and Citizen's University, my non-profit ...

  • we aim to be driving this kind of program.

  • HEFFNER: One of the prongs of your Aspen Institute

  • project is policy making.

  • So how do you, how do breed that culture

  • through policy making?

  • Again, I don't mean to imply that it has to be

  • from the top down, it can be by local dictates

  • and legislation in State Houses around the country.

  • But if you're saying "no" to a Constitutional

  • Amendment, or, or at least there are other

  • mechanisms, what, what do you hope to learn through

  • the Aspen Institute work that will drive at the

  • policy making, that will tackle this problem.

  • LIU: You know I think ... let's take education

  • specifically, right.

  • For better or for worse, this is a nation of local

  • control when it comes to education.

  • And so, it's not easy for the Federal government to ...

  • I mean we see in the debate today about the

  • Common Core, which is not even technically a Federal effort.

  • It's a coordinated effort by 40 some states to try

  • to create some common standards across different

  • disciplines and even that has created incredible

  • push-back from both the Left and the Right.

  • Can you imagine if the Federal Department of

  • Education had tried to say ... you know,

  • "We now issue hence forth, you know a set of

  • standards and everybody shall follow them."

  • The political culture here would,

  • would resist that.

  • At the same time, there are interesting

  • partnerships to be built on a policy level where

  • the Federal government acts sort of as catalyst

  • or venture capitalist in a way ...

  • HEFFNER: MmmHmm.

  • LIU: ... for experimentation by states and localities

  • on ... you know, basically saying,

  • "Here's the charge, figure out new creative,

  • compelling ways to revitalize civic education

  • in K-12 schools." Right.

  • We have a pot of money, we have a certain set of kind

  • of guidelines of what we think of as creative,

  • you know, civic education, but we're not going to dictate.

  • Here's out pot of money, state,

  • cities ... go at it, compete,

  • come up with your best ideas,

  • come up with our best ways of,

  • of cracking this nut and then we will award funds

  • to, you know, the most promising plans and ideas. Right.

  • The government actually, the Obama Administration

  • did something quite like this during a program

  • early in the first term of the President ...

  • called "Race to the Top".

  • They had a giant pot of funding,

  • and they said to the states and now to school

  • districts around the country ... "Here are four

  • broad goals, we want ... you know,

  • more data driven stuff.

  • We want more high quality teacher training.

  • We want to accelerate the up-take of charter

  • schools" and so on and so forth ... states,

  • districts, come up with plans and strategies for doing this.

  • We're not going to dictate how,

  • but you come up with things that make sense for

  • you from the ground up and then we're going to award

  • funds to the most promising and

  • exciting of these plans."

  • And that to me is a great leverage way to scale

  • and to incentivize innovation on any issue,

  • but particularly on something like civics

  • where you have essentially a policy market failure. Right.

  • People aren't taking it upon themselves to just

  • wake up and revitalize civics.

  • But I think with a prod like that and meanwhile,

  • from, from, you know, the ground up,

  • people like you and me having conversations like

  • this, reminding each other,

  • you know, that this stuff matters and it doesn't

  • matter just if you're, you know, age 75 and older.

  • It matters particularly for the young generation

  • to get literate in this stuff.

  • I think we can move the dial.

  • HEFFNER: I hate to say it, Eric Liu,

  • but we've run out of time.

  • LIU: (Laugh)

  • HEFFNER: I hope you'll visit with us again

  • and describe what the experimentation

  • elicits from our Aspen Institute project.

  • LIU: I sure will, thank you for having me, Alexander.

  • HEFFNER: Thank you.

  • And thanks to you in the audience.

  • I hope you join us again next time...

  • for a thoughtful excursion into the world of ideas.

  • Until then, keep an open mind.

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I'm Alexander Heffner, your host on The Open Mind.

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