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  • oh

  • stunning statistics is that there are more tigers in captivity in the US then there now are in the wild

  • a situation we're under the USDA regulations the cage only needs to be big enough for the animal to stand up and

  • turn around in

  • so you can only imagine the small cages that people build that are

  • actually legal you know could potential be in our backyards right now

  • Tiger crisis it didn't get to this point if

  • everybody was aware that tigers need to be protected and tigers

  • while tigers belong in asia in the wild in their natural forest

  • when you see the kinds of places these animals live you start to realize that in some cases

  • its a fate worse than death

  • hi i'm kristin bauer for the animal legal defense fund

  • my character the vampire pam on true blood

  • fends for herself just fine in her unlikely louisiana home

  • but for one wild animal in particular Louisiana

  • is the last place on earth he belongs

  • tony is a siberian bengal tiger who

  • has been living on display

  • as a tourist attraction at a truck stop outside baton rouge

  • since two thousand and one

  • in the wild tony might roam a territory of one hundred square miles

  • but for the last decade he has instead

  • lived in a concrete enclosure

  • plagued by the noise of diesel engines and the stench of gasoline

  • years of living in isolation and confinement have taken their toll on tony's

  • health

  • day after day

  • this magnificent

  • cat is taunted and harassed by tourists

  • instead of basking in the sun and hunting by night

  • tony paces his cage a sign of extreme psychological distress confining a wild animal as

  • a road side spectacle is wrong join me

  • and the animal

  • legal defense

  • in urging the state of louisiana

  • to revoke the permit that allows

  • tony to be kept at the tiger truck stop

  • a state law that violates a permit

  • designed to protect people and big cats

  • like tony

  • help us win the fight for his freedom

  • visit aldf.org/ tony thank you

  • hello and welcome to the educational forum

  • i'm your host diane sullivan

  • i have been an animal advocate

  • and a lawyer for many years

  • but i have to admit that i did not know about the plight of tigers living

  • in the united states

  • until a former student rose church called me

  • explained the problem and aced for my help

  • what i found out is that there are two issues

  • the first issue contributing to the tiger problem is what they call pay

  • to play

  • carol baskin the founder and c_e_o_ of big cat rescue

  • explains what pay to play is and its impact on tigers we track all of the

  • killings maulings and escapes by big cats on our website at bigcatrescue.org

  • and what was happening was there were so many people that were being mauled by

  • while they were paying to pet tigers or have their pictures made with tigers that u_s_d_a_

  • created

  • a...

  • requirement that you could not touch a big cat a lion tiger leopard

  • after it reached the age of twelve weeks

  • because they became too dangerous because they're wild animals they're tigers

  • right ok in the case of haley hildebrand she was a seventeen year old

  • girl it was very

  • common her area where she lived in kansas to have your picture made with a

  • tiger for your yearbook

  • and so like all these other kids had done she went to this facility

  • had her picture made with this six hundred pound tiger who killed her

  • during the photoshoot

  • as a result there was a huge outcry for a bill called hailey's act that would end the

  • uh... contact with these animals

  • u_s_d_a_ had already said that you couldn't touch them after the age of

  • twelve weeks

  • u_s_d_a_ came back and said you can't touch the cub up until the age of eight

  • weeks

  • and the reason for that is the cub doesn't have sufficient immune uh... immune

  • system to be able to deal with all of the handling

  • so what that did was it created an eight to twelve week window a one month

  • window

  • in which people can still pay to touch these tigers

  • and as long as people will pay to touch these tigers

  • breeders and dealers will breed

  • excessively to meet that demand

  • it really comes back to the public if you could just stop the public from

  • doing this

  • it would save so many lives

  • so let me make sure i have this straight i could

  • perhaps go to a mall and pay twenty dollars or maybe seventy five dollars have my

  • twenty twenty ok have my picture taken

  • with a tiger cub who is between the ages of eight weeks and twelve weeks

  • and and and then i'd would leave with this cute little picture and the memory

  • now

  • if somebody is making money out of this which i'm assuming they must be

  • otherwise why would we have this going on

  • they would have to be breeding it would seem to me a tremendous amount of tigers

  • each and every year to ensure that they have cubs

  • between the ages of eight and twelve weeks am i right about this that's

  • correct do you have any idea of how big a businesses this is we know that one

  • vendor who said that he could make over twenty thousand dollars in a single

  • weekend at the mall

  • i know another person that breeds these animals who i'd had gotten a copy of an

  • email he had sent around saying he needed two hundred cups per year

  • just to be able to have all of his photo booths stocked

  • these photo booths are just they travel around to malls they put the cubs down

  • on the floor in a cage you go in you have a picture made with the cub

  • and these cubs are being just constantly awakened and handled by the public

  • these are cubs that would spend two years or more with their mothers so the mothers

  • are being just bread to death to be able to provide these cubs for this

  • purpose and it's a horrible life for both the mother and for the cub but you

  • can imagine being

  • jostled awake every time you've tried to finally drift off to sleep these guys need

  • a lot of sleep as cubs

  • but every time somebody comes up with ten or twenty dollars to have

  • their picture made picture their jerking that cub up and making the picture with them so if

  • there is only this one month window of opportunity to have your picture taken

  • with a tiger cub

  • what happens to the tiger cub when its

  • thirteen weeks old or maybe even a year old

  • or particularly when it's full grown because we all know that a tiger cub

  • grows into a tiger and they really are not suitable house pets

  • what happens to them unfortunately we don't know in many cases where these animals

  • end up

  • the ones we do know about

  • always end up in horrible situations where they end up needing to be rescued

  • because like you somebody will take this animal in as a pet and think

  • well it was used for these photo ops and its handleable so its going to be this great

  • pet and then it gets to be a year

  • year and a half

  • and they're like two hundred pounds by then and the people are scared to death

  • of them and they can't find a place fast enough to unload their animal

  • tell me how they live that at your sanctuary what's life like

  • for a tiger there

  • i've seen some delightful pictures of tigers actually even painting to amuse

  • themselves the biggest challenge that we face is trying to meet the emotional

  • needs of these cats

  • you're talking about cats that in the wild which room

  • four hundred square miles of territory that would be their home base

  • so there's no cage that's going to be giving them a sufficient life

  • we do an awful lot of the stuff like you're talking about giving them

  • pumpkins and uh... watermelons in pools and a lot of interaction we don't do any

  • hands on interaction with the cats

  • just talking to them and

  • trying to make their lives as pleasant and as peaceful as possible

  • the bigger issue is that we need to end the abuse at its start because there aren't

  • enough sanctuaries and even if they are take their word

  • these cats just don't belong in cages

  • the biggest leading cause

  • for so many of these animals to end up in these horrific situations

  • are that people will pay to have their picture made with a cute little tiger

  • cub

  • and you can imagine

  • how

  • how much people want to do that they're soooo cute and

  • they will always justify it by saying well it's just this one time and even the

  • people seem to know that there's something inherently wrong about the

  • whole situation about why am i a able to touch this cub where's the cubs mother

  • they still manage to justify it by saying

  • this one-time won't make a difference this is something i want to do

  • this is

  • something i want to give as a gift and

  • the result is that

  • the people

  • that breed these animals will constantly be breeding more and more cubs to supply

  • that demand

  • if the public would stop than the breeding would stop and this whole thing

  • would just die out over time

  • the other major issue facing tigers in the united states

  • is that there are no federal regulations prohibiting people who want to keep

  • tigers as pets

  • pet ownership is a matter of state law and some states do not regulate the

  • keeping of tigers or other exotic animals today twenty one states allow

  • private citizens to keep a tiger as pat with as little a requirement as a

  • license or permit and some do not even require that yes that's correct and with

  • the u_s_ fish and wildlife service because there's no permitting requirement

  • there's no tracking system

  • so we really don't have a sense of how many of these tigers there are

  • out there so people can buy these tigers on craig's list or facebook

  • and you know with no training at all you basically can keep them like a

  • domestic cat the problem is after about six months old they become a huge tiger

  • and than they bascially become confined to a small cage you know living

  • in somebodys backyard or in a basement you know a situation of an apartment

  • building and you know it basically outs the actual homeowner from whatever

  • living quarters their in

  • did you ever envision yourself as going to the pet store or

  • a barn down the street or craigslist and getting a tiger not not at all

  • to me the whole concept is completely inconceivable it just

  • when i heard about this situation and how prevailant it is in the united states

  • i was just in shock and i think it took me

  • probably three or four days to really come to the realization that this is a real issue

  • and something thats really happening describe some of the backyard scenes

  • that tigers are kept in

  • well the ones that i've seen which have been mainly from rescue

  • centers where they actually have gone and rescued these backyard tigers they basically live in

  • deplorable conditions these

  • basically in just flat concrete cells that are you know no bigger than the

  • size of a parking space and it's completely legal under the regulations as they are

  • right now

  • and it's it's really sad because the tires actually pace which is something

  • that they shouldn't actually be doing and they are not given any type of

  • natural habitat so they're basically out there you know in the in a

  • concrete not out in the wild as they should be

  • pacing back and forth with

  • basically nothing to do and they're given probably not even enough meat that

  • they're supposed to have why did you get involved with trying to help with put

  • and end

  • to the problems surrounding the life of tigers in the united states i first

  • got involved working for a non-profit which was one of my pro-bono projects

  • and we're really looking at the tony the tiger situation down in louisiana and

  • doing research for that i realized that

  • you know tony was just one of maybe fifteen thousand tigers within the

  • united states and that really there is a serious problems with the laws and

  • regulations and you know as an attorney i felt like is kind of my duty to

  • step in and try to

  • solve the problem in whatever capacity i can

  • while doing research on the tiger problem

  • we spoke with individuals from a few of the animal welfare organizations about

  • their thoughts on the tiger problem

  • adam roberts is the executive vice president of born free u_s_a

  • adam has significant expertise in international wildlife trade and captive

  • wild animals and he serves on several committees including animals in

  • captivity born for u_s_a_'s is a national animal advocacy and wildlife

  • conservation organization

  • and we have offices in california in d_c_ and elsewhere

  • but we also operate a primate sanctuary down in texas

  • and our basic philosophy much like our partners in the u_k_ at born free

  • foundation

  • is to keep wildlife in the wild it's a very simple message so that were uh...

  • against the keeping of animals in captivity

  • provided that it's not

  • humane captivity it's kind of complicated because of course

  • when we have a sanctuary for primates

  • that's captivity but we try and give them

  • as naturalistic an environment as possible so that they can live out the

  • remainder of their days in peace with limited human interference in a natural

  • surrounding

  • juxtaposed against treatment of animals in circuses or when they're caught for

  • their fur or when they're killed in the wild for their parts

  • i want to talk a little bit about zooz

  • and circuses

  • and your

  • position on that

  • and ask you whether animals can really be kept humanely and safely in those

  • conditions well i think under certain circumstances you might

  • be able to i think the bottom line is that

  • the way i see the modern zoo is that it's more for the human visitor than it

  • is for the animals

  • and as long as its created that way and run that way it's not going to be a humane

  • enterprise and so really have to i think break the entire zoo mold

  • and start over again what i could see is that zoos eventually evolved into

  • sanctuaries where they're not breeding animals they're not importing them into

  • from the wild but they're actually serving as rescue facilities so that

  • when someone is caught with tigers in their backyard and they're confiscated they

  • have a place to put that animal

  • that can better tend to their needs them what they had before or if

  • a bear cub for example as orphaned in the wild there's a place for that animal

  • to go

  • when that is the most humane alternative

  • tell me about born free's position

  • on the tiger problem here in the united states

  • well it feeds right into everything i've been talking about in terms of keeping

  • wildlife in the wild i mean obviously when people are keeping tigers in

  • captivity

  • these are apex predators and you can't sort of breed that or take that

  • out of the animal

  • so no matter what construct you put that tiger into

  • when that tiger is in captivity

  • and more importantly when that tigers in captivity around humans

  • it's a recipe for disaster and so part of our situation is trying to keep them

  • protected in the wild but also out of human hands

  • here in the united states and and so we fight against the exotic pet trade

  • where people have tigers in their back yards their apartments their living

  • rooms literally

  • because we knew the human interactions that that causes and the fatalities in

  • other injuries that come as a result

  • i'm a lawyer and i happen to know that what animals are kept somebody's

  • home or in their yard

  • is a matter of state law it does seem incredulous that somebody would think it

  • would be ok to keep a tiger in their backyard but i understand that that's a

  • great problem here in the united states that in certain states that have no

  • regulations to prohibit it

  • people keep tigers as pets

  • yeah that's right in fact it's

  • popularly known thought

  • but we think it's fairly certain that there are more tigers in captivity in human

  • hands in the united states than there

  • are left in the wild

  • which for us is an alarming statistic to think about you know when you have maybe

  • three thousand tigers left in the wild where they belong

  • it really is alarming and and concerning for us

  • and the other problem is that some states are particularly problematic in

  • fact texas where there's a proliferation of tigers in captivity there may be

  • more tigers in captivity in texas than there are in india

  • which is the one remaining stronghold of the wild population of tigers so it really

  • is incongruous to me how

  • a people could want to keep these dangerous animals

  • and b that states would allow

  • these animals to be kept the why of that why would you want a tiger in your backyard

  • kept in a little tiny enclosure why would you want to do that i think i can kind

  • of understand that part of it

  • and it goes like this

  • either it's because you want to have the biggest baddest animal on the block and

  • it used to be the doberman and then it was the rottweiler

  • and now it's the lion cub or the tiger cub and that eventually grows in to

  • a pretty large and domineering animal

  • but on the other hand as a parent i can understand too

  • when you see a cub a tiger cub

  • that is a cute and cuddly that is incredibly affable

  • gregarious playful

  • the problem is that when the person acquires that animal

  • they don't realize that eventually that animal is gonna become a three hundred

  • four hundred-pound monster yeah and then it becomes dangerous and that's where

  • you have animals that are either released into the wild

  • of this country

  • so that their roaming around the streets of birmingham or are they end up being

  • the humane society's problems or dumped on a local facility or

  • they're taken out into public on a leash and actually bite people so that's

  • really what the problem comes in so i can see the desire to acquire the animal

  • that for some people unlike me

  • there's there's not the separation there where they say okay that's a cute animal

  • but i wouldn't want own one or have my child around one

  • and for some people

  • that uh... leap doesn't ever get bridged

  • a few years back maybe a half a dozen at this point i remember reading in the

  • new york times

  • about the tiger that was in an apartment in harlem i think it was and

  • you know the rescue on officers had to calm down the skyscraper and go through

  • the window to try to sedate the tiger to get it out at the apartment building

  • how does a tiger end up in a public housing apartment building in new

  • york city is it because it was purchased legally somewhere and then transported

  • here illegally

  • yet it could be acquired in any number of ways it could be legally acquired or illegally

  • acquired obviously it depends on the state where the problem is happening

  • and when you have a situation where you know in connecticut it's illegal to own

  • a tiger but in pennsylvania you can get a permit to own one

  • it's very easy with that patchwork of state laws to acquire the animals and

  • move them around in interstate commerce and so

  • people get these animals and they get them in their houses and

  • i for one if i was the super of that building wouldn't want to go tell that

  • to get rid of the tiger i think he also have some big reptiles like an

  • alligator that i think that's right now that you say that so

  • i'd be a little fearful about going into that apartment i think that's what people prey on

  • another problem with respect to tigers and particularly tiger cubs that

  • grow in to tigers

  • is this

  • pay for play notion at the local malls where in certain states i guess

  • exhibitors bring tiger cubs and during a period where the tiger cubs is eight to twelve

  • weeks old you can go play with it or have your picture taken and it's a big

  • moneymaker for the exhibitor could you comment on that and how much that

  • contributes to the breeding and the problem with tigers here in this country

  • yeah well as long as there's going to be profit made by showing those animals to

  • the public allowing the public and to interact with those animals

  • and take pictures with those animals there's going to be a problem with those

  • animals long-term first it

  • it feeds the breeding because obviously when there's profit to be made there are

  • people who were going to want that money

  • and greed takes over

  • you going to breed the animals and try and display them to make a buck

  • but then what happens when the animals are too old to show will they either get

  • shipped off to some substandard facility where the lifestyle is horrible and

  • their uh... inhumanley treated or they're killed for their parts and we

  • have evidence that

  • the need of these tigers ends up in the trade in the meat trade exotic meat trade

  • or the animals end up as we've talked about in somebody's backyard as a pet

  • so it really does feed the problem to allow these animals to be shown to the

  • public

  • and of course in some situations you have animals that are

  • alder being showed in the public that are more grown up

  • and there was one instance in the midwest where somebody was killed a teenage

  • girl was killed by an animal during a photo op so you think that having an

  • animal like a tiger on a leash is somehow going to be ok but obviously

  • it's just not

  • lets talk a little bit about the international trade of tiger parts

  • the problem of some of the folk lore of the chinese

  • believing that tiger bones put in medicine or

  • stews or whatever they're used in

  • is something that I would imagine born free is up against that's

  • right it is a huge problem

  • uh... the international trade in tiger parts much like the international trade

  • in elephant ivory or rhino horn or bear gall bladder hugely profitable on the

  • black market and while the international community does not allow legally the

  • movement of tiger parts it's illegal to trade internationally in these parts

  • uh... the profit that can be made by the illegal trade is pretty enormous

  • and so you have tiger penis tiger bone wine tiger skins clause teeth everything

  • having a market value on the black market yeah now

  • two of the problems that comes from that relate to the source of these animals

  • uh... on the one hand you have

  • businessmen in china who are quote unquote forming the strikers keeping

  • them in these breeding facilities and spending thousands and thousands of

  • dollars to maintain the animals every year and so naturally they're putting

  • pressure on the government

  • who in turn but for puts pressure on the international community to open up the

  • legal trade

  • so that those businessmen

  • can finally see some profit on their investment

  • but as long as that's happening as long as theirs pressure and there's a black

  • market for these items there are poachers who are paying a dollar for a bullet

  • and taking the animals from the wild to feed into the trade so really as long as

  • that international trade happens

  • and there's not a firm message from all the governments around the world including

  • china that it shouldn't be happening tigers are going to be vulnerable in the

  • wild

  • is their anything our viewers can do to help

  • with getting a message out there that this is not acceptable yeah well really

  • it would help for them to contact us at born free so that we can take

  • that message forward

  • when we go to these international treaty meetings uh... it's called the

  • convention on international trade in endangered species

  • and they're a hundred and seventy five hundred seventy six countries that

  • participate

  • including the united states and we need to be able to tell the international

  • community

  • including the united states government

  • that our citizens are strongly against any trade-in uh... tiger parts uh... but

  • then also writing to the government itself write to the department of the interior let

  • them know

  • that we need strong as possible regulations globally

  • to prevent any tigers from being killed for the trade

  • last question tony the tiger

  • how hear wrenching is that tony is living in a cage at a truck stop is this going to

  • end for tony do you think well i think it will and and i'll tell you that you

  • know you describe it is heart wrenching and and it is but it's also inspiring

  • because that was one situation

  • where i personally i have to admit on i'm guilty of this i'd look at that

  • situation for many years and i could not find a way out couldn't find a solution

  • i couldn't figure out how we can get this tiger out of this parish in

  • louisiana where obviously the people who were intrenched there in the decision making

  • had no interest in doing so and and our friends at the animal legal

  • defense fund had a great campaign and a successful campaign and now the question is

  • come the end of the year if his permit is in fact not able to be um...

  • uh... renewed

  • what's gonna happen to tony and and quite frankly we've offered if his

  • health is strong enough to take him to our century in india now i know that's a big

  • if but god knows that would be an amazing end for that tragic story but

  • even if we got him to one of the sanctuaries like big cat rescue in the u_s_ it would

  • still be just so wonderful thats just where i was going i was gonna ask is

  • there any possibility you could take tony if things work out to india or

  • certainly big cat rescue would be another great organization yeah we have

  • to make that judgment call you know is he healthy enough to make that trip and

  • if he is

  • absolutey

  • and and he could actually be back where tigers belong uh...

  • the international fund for animal welfare known as the ifaw

  • is currently one of the largest animal welfare and conservation charities in the

  • world

  • their mission is to improve the welfare of wild and domestic animals throughout

  • the world by reducing commercial exploitation of the animals protecting

  • wildlife habitats and assisting animals in distress

  • grace ge gabriel is the regional director of international fund for

  • animal welfare asia

  • she joined the international fund for animal welfare in nineteen ninety-seven as

  • the china country director

  • in this capacity

  • she established the ifaw china office she initiated and managed an array of

  • conservation

  • animal welfare campaigns and programs

  • headed by grace ifaw china works with the chinese government to influence

  • its current conservation policies

  • increase coordination with the international community

  • and enhance enforcement of both domestic and international

  • wildlife protection legislation

  • well while tiger only exist in asian

  • it's a asian species and scientists believe that

  • tiger as as species originated from china

  • really yes so uh...

  • a century ago there where

  • probably a hundred thousand tigers across asian continent

  • on far wide as even to iran to the caspian sea uh...

  • and but in the past century

  • three subspecies of tigers have

  • become extinct

  • including caspian tiger bali and javan

  • uh... tiger

  • subspecies

  • in china

  • there is one sub species of tiger called south china tiger

  • subspecies but this species hasn't been seen

  • in the wild for over thirty years

  • so scientists believe that this species has

  • already become extinct

  • except some individuals that are remaining in zoos

  • but china

  • you know up until nineteen eighties

  • china still had a policy of killing tigers as pests

  • and not until nineteen eighty-nine when china issued

  • uh... wildlife

  • protection act

  • when tiger killing is

  • was banned

  • and today china had

  • fewere then

  • thirty tigers in the wild no wow and across tiger continent

  • there are there could be as few as

  • thirty two hundred

  • tigers across that continent in

  • thirteen

  • tiger range states

  • but china is still very important for

  • tight wild tiger conservation

  • because china in china's border with russia

  • there is a subspecies that is amur tiger

  • most of it lived in russia in the russia and the fare east

  • and it was

  • in the past fifty years that species had

  • had increased to

  • about forty

  • four hundred

  • fifty

  • individuals

  • but today that species is also threatened because of the demand

  • for tiger parts

  • in china

  • and in souther china

  • in china's border with myanmar and vietnam

  • and that region there's also the indochinese subspecies of tiger

  • that that

  • occasionally wander

  • into china

  • and that species is also very

  • uh...

  • very much pressured

  • by the trade by poaching

  • are there now laws in china hurts uto prohibit or attempt to

  • at least regulate the the poachings so are their anti- poaching laws and

  • other laws to restrict trade of illegal parts of tigers

  • china's protection of wildlife law

  • prohibits poaching of uh... tigers and many endangered species

  • in the wild

  • however china's policy

  • uh... is very much promoting trade

  • so under the policy there are a few

  • uh...

  • there are a lot of

  • farming

  • operations that are allowed

  • um... in in china including tiger farming

  • some of the

  • largest tiger farms exist in china

  • in total there are

  • um...

  • over six thousand tigers um...

  • in the various farms

  • versus fewer than thirty tigers in the wild what are the tigers being farmed

  • or bred for specifically what's going to happen to those tigers

  • supposedly when when china allowed these tiger farms to be set up

  • they were set up

  • um with um

  • basically with the

  • cover

  • to say with the excuse to say these tigers are bred for releasing them into

  • the wild

  • but what actually happened that these tigers are speed bred

  • they are bred so that the breeding strategy for these tigers on the farms is very

  • different from breeding strategy

  • for wild tightness

  • in the wild in order to preserve diversity the genetic diversity

  • you wouldn't breed so frequently

  • but on the farms in order to produce the maximum number of tigers

  • they breed very quickly

  • the tigers

  • after a female

  • breeds within three months

  • that cub is taken away from the mother

  • so the female tiger will get into breeding again so what happens is that

  • the diversity is is very

  • it got very uh... messy

  • and compromised and the tigers are not only

  • breeding withing you know just

  • with other tigers

  • these farms also breed tigers with lions

  • so what happens this you know these monster

  • ligers

  • that has no use ever

  • in conservation

  • and

  • tigers cannot the tigers on the farm bred on the farms can never never be

  • release into the wild

  • and i would surmise that the conditions they're kept in on the farm

  • are not

  • ideal conditions for a tiger no they're not and also day they are

  • uh... allot of the tigers are starved

  • and in order for them to engage in shows

  • by shows that i mean

  • they would sell tourists

  • prey tiger prey

  • so tourists can take a bye a chicken buy a cow release into the

  • enclosure for the tiger to pounce

  • pounce onto the prey

  • and in the wild a tiger would hunt

  • individually by itself but in these farms uh... you can see

  • uh...

  • a group of tigers twenty thirty tiger pouncing on one cow or

  • chasing one chicken

  • so these are

  • many of the farms also are uh... wildlife parks safari parks

  • so what

  • what they do it is uh... they chain tigers to

  • to uh... to the floor and

  • pose pictures for pictures

  • with tourists so these tigers

  • live a very miserable life

  • on the farm and then when they die or when they are killed

  • these farms are also selling

  • the tiger parts online

  • and in the name

  • of traditional medicine

  • one of the

  • one of the laws that china had passed

  • it wasn't a law law but it was a state council china's highest level of

  • government body

  • in nineteen ninety three

  • responding to international uh... uh... pressure

  • to protect tigers and tigers are already listed in society the society of

  • international trade

  • in endangered species

  • on appendix one so international trade is banned

  • so in nineteen ninety-three china's state council issued a notice

  • banning

  • tiger bone and rhino horn

  • use in traditional chinese medicine

  • and after that ban the government actually started a lot of uh...

  • education campaigns

  • within the tcm

  • medicine community

  • to urge them not to use

  • tiger bone and rhino horn in medicine

  • so what happened was the

  • official tcm community have moved away

  • from using tiger bone

  • in medicine

  • but these tiger farms

  • they are

  • they're basically they used tiger bone

  • to produce a type of wine

  • and they call it for medicinal use

  • and then they are they are using peoples

  • you know a lot of older people's in their mind yeah tiger bone has you

  • know medicinal powers and so they're on

  • preying on

  • those type of people and

  • who treasure

  • tiger bone in medicine and who still want to use it as we sit here at the

  • international headquarters it's easy to cast a stone on what's going on in

  • china and

  • other countries but here in the united states there are also significant

  • tiger

  • problems and of course other endangered species

  • significant problems as well

  • do you have any commentary on the link between what's going on in china

  • with respect to the tigers in some of the abuse of tigers here in the united

  • states

  • indeed you know tiger crisis it it it didn't get to this point if

  • everybody was aware that

  • you know tigers need to be protected and tigers wild tigers belong in asia

  • in the wild in their natural forest

  • in fact in the u_s_ um... their the number of tigers

  • that are kept in captivity

  • the number is even higher than

  • those that are on china farms

  • and tiger is not even an indigenous species

  • on this continent

  • so in

  • for the people in the

  • for the u_s_ government on and for the people in in

  • in u_s_

  • they need to be aware of

  • if they' really care about tigers

  • than we need to have stronger laws we need to have stronger

  • position to keep tigers in the wild to regulate

  • make sure that the tigers

  • in captivity

  • in this country do not

  • go into uh... illegal trade

  • which stimulates a market demand

  • which fuels poaching tigers in the wild

  • nathan herschler is an attorney and international operations manager with

  • ifaw

  • the international fund for animal welfare

  • prior to joining ifaw in two thousand and eight

  • he graduated from american university washington college of law

  • where he focused on environmental and animal law

  • nathan has co-chaired his student animal legal defense fund law school chapter

  • he's lectured on animal law issues and volunteered with a number of animal

  • advocacy group

  • can you tell me how pervasive the captive tiger problem is here in the u_s_

  • the problem is pretty widespread uh...

  • uh... there's been a number of advancements over

  • the past fifteen to twenty years or so most recently with the passage of

  • the captive wildlife safety act in two thousand three

  • after that came into effect there was a ban on interstate transport on a

  • number of big cat species defined is prohibited wildlife species under that

  • act

  • um... it protects species that uh... including lions and cougars which were

  • necessarily already protected under federal law

  • uh... but that became so because of that act and remain only protected under

  • federal because of that act

  • uh...

  • that being said

  • there are still a substantial number of

  • big cats in captivity in the united states

  • both in private hands kept as pets and also in sort of

  • corporate type of farms that uh...

  • are using these animals for uh... for commercial activities like bringing them to

  • malls where

  • they ask people to take photos take photos with these big cats as part of

  • you know

  • uh... activities that will bring

  • folks into malls

  • where does one

  • go about purchasing a tiger

  • uh...

  • it's not as simple as going to a local pet store or that but

  • uh...

  • there are a number of states where private ownership of big cats is just not

  • prohibited in the united states its legal

  • or its legal with a permit uh...

  • the number of states have declined where that's allowed in the last number of

  • years but

  • uh... you can still go to some of these states where

  • uh... where the private ownership is allowed

  • uh...

  • or you can find them on the internet the simple google search away you can

  • purchase your own big cat

  • why would states allow this

  • there's a substantial amount of money in it in some instances

  • states sometimes allow because they think of it is a private ownership issue

  • they don't like to see government getting involved in the private

  • ownership of

  • property

  • uh...

  • they think that it's somebody's right to own

  • wildlife

  • uh...

  • it's hard to speculate on a state to state basis there a number of different

  • reasons why they would do it

  • uh... but i think that uh... a lot of times it's really just inertia

  • and i think that they don't see it as a substantial problems in their states so

  • there's not a lot of

  • effort being put into changing the way that they actually do it

  • the ownership of big cats other the obvious danger of a

  • tiger escaping and harming someone are their other

  • things to worry about

  • yeah so their there's a number of issues and there's welfare issues

  • a member of these cats are being kept in

  • horribly tight confinement uh...

  • you know spaces small cages that are the equivalent of of

  • dog cages the you see that you will only will transfer your dog for a couple of

  • hours s just keep them safe but these tigers are living their

  • entire lives

  • in in

  • equally small cramped behavior so there's massive animal welfare problems

  • with that

  • there's also

  • um... issues of public safety uh...

  • you know when you're dealing with these private owners of big cats there's

  • always the possible of mailings theres the possibility of escapes

  • uh... and then there's also international conservation issues we

  • suspect although we don't have any proof at this stage that a number of these

  • animals are actually being put into

  • uh... international and domestic wildlife trade uh... for use in either

  • traditional asian markets for as medicines

  • where the tiger in particular tiger bone wine is thought to increase both

  • virality and strengthen its drinkers

  • and then there's an increasing demand for that thats putting extreme pressures on

  • wild populations of tigers but we also suspect may be putting pressure on

  • domestic formed populations

  • uh...

  • and the same holds true for other species of big cats lions

  • for example

  • that are sometimes used as replacement products for those tigers when they

  • become more scarce

  • uh... there are also additional threats on the ground to a number of the species

  • poaching in particular uh... or trophy hunting for species like lions

  • where the

  • uh... import of those trophies is not actually prohibited at this time in the

  • united states what are some challenges that we face

  • probably the number one challenge is the fact that people don't

  • think of this is a major problem uh... the people who are out there

  • trying to interact with these animals the cubs that you're allowed to play

  • with at shopping malls for example

  • they like animals that love animals they want to be near these animals and that's

  • really the

  • cause for them to be willing to pay these ten twenty dollars for a photo

  • opportunity with them

  • to some extent of the biggest challenge is as overcoming the public awareness

  • and what the actual side effects of having these cubs in malls is

  • actually going to be

  • we also have challenges in congress of course as everybody knows right now

  • there's huge impasses over the budget over the role of federal government

  • implementing wildlife reforms

  • and

  • uh... and overcoming that just on a

  • uh... federal law basis is a substantial challenge for anybody trying to do the

  • type of work that our organization does ian

  • robinson is a veterinarian and ifaw's emergency relief program director

  • he began his career in general veterinary practice in the u_k_ but for

  • the past fifteen years he has worked full time in animal welfare ian work

  • first with the royal society for the prevention of cruelty to animals where

  • he helped to open the largest wildlife rehabilitation hospital in europe

  • treating over six thousand wildlife casualties per year from over two

  • hundred different species from bats to badgers to sparrows to sea birds to

  • seals and all kinds of animals

  • ian joined ifaw in two thousand and three

  • and he has helped the animals around the world including responding to

  • emergencies in many foreign countries as well as in the united states

  • it was interesting actually because my first job really

  • when i first started with ifaw

  • was a tiger rescue

  • and uh... when i was going to

  • to start my job i was called by my new boss saying can you start in time for the big cat rescue

  • and i said oh yeah that'll bbe fine I had no idea whether this was a like

  • just a big cat or like a tabby or a main coon cat

  • it turned out to be twenty-four tigers

  • in a backyard in new jersey

  • which we took out of quite appalling conditions

  • and moved to a sanctuary in texas and i think one of the

  • stunning statistics

  • is that there are more

  • tigers in captivity in the u_s_ then there now are in the wild

  • uh...

  • uh... and the wild tigers are extremely endangered

  • yet they are relatively easy to breed in captivity and there are large

  • numbers of them unregulated in the u_s_ and i think this is the the basis of the

  • problem you can buy a tiger cub

  • for about the same price is a good pedigree labrador

  • and people will do this and in many states there are

  • really no regulations to

  • control how

  • the trade in

  • dangerous wild animals of all sorts

  • uh... is is undertaken

  • and so people will

  • buy a cub which sounds like a good idea at the time than the cub grows it

  • becomes dangerous

  • it becomes often unwanted or they can't afford to keep it anymore

  • and then it becomes a problem

  • and that's often where we get involved trying to find

  • sanctuary for these

  • animals which people can no longer cope with

  • now i am a law school professor and one of the things that i have great interest

  • in is animal welfare

  • so i'm aware more than the general public about the problems with

  • respect to animals in this country

  • approximately three months ago i found out

  • that people

  • had in their back yards in texas and in other parts of the country tigers i was

  • shocked shocked is an understatement really

  • i wonder what people think when

  • when they decide that they're going to keep a tiger in their backyard to me

  • common sense tells should tell you that you can not keep a tiger like you would

  • keep a cat or a dog absolutely and wild live belongs in the wild whatever it is

  • but

  • people do

  • get attracted by the beauty and the grandeur of these animals and

  • there is that inquisitive streak in people which which wants to own

  • they want to own the want

  • to have one of these animals for themselves and they don't really consider

  • the implications of that

  • keeping wildlife like tigers in captivity

  • is an extremely complex expensive

  • and specialized business and should be left to

  • those organizations like zoos that have the wherewithal

  • to try and do it properly uh... and often

  • the results of trying to do it and

  • not being able to do it properly is these animals end up

  • needing a home and that's where

  • the sanctuary community of the

  • u_s_ comes in to try and rescue these animals and give them

  • a good environment for the

  • remainder of their lives

  • my understanding is many of the sanctuaries we have now are full

  • and because we have such a problem in the united states so i would imagine

  • that it's quite hard when you get a call that there are a number of tigers in a

  • backyard somewhere that are being captain horrible conditions you need to

  • find a way to go in and

  • rescue them but then you also have to relocate them somewhere

  • walk me through what it's like to to relocate a tiger

  • well it is a tremendous problem because particularly

  • in this at this time of economic recession it's becoming

  • more difficult for

  • the sanctuaries who are providing for these animals

  • to keep going in fact there has been a recent case of a sanctuary going

  • bankrupt and then

  • the hundred-plus tigers and

  • lions and other big cats that they had in sanctuary

  • had to be farmed out through out

  • the the whole of the u_s_ to other sanctuaries that could provide them with

  • a decent home that was an extremely difficult and is still an ongoing process

  • that we're going through we haven't quite rehoused

  • all of the tigers that they have

  • uh... a sanctuary which takes on

  • the job

  • of caring for one of these animals and giving them a good home for the rest of

  • their lives is taking on a tremendous burden

  • both financially and in terms of the care

  • that that's required and this is the real problem

  • and the problem is there are more and

  • more tigers being produced now one of the reasons for this is that people

  • want to pet tigers

  • and so there is a market

  • for people to pet tigers and it is still legal in this country to

  • be able to handle and have the public interacting

  • with tigers within a certain age group which is

  • sort of eight to twelve weeks now that's a very very short time scale

  • so in order to have these animals to make a profit out

  • allowing the public to handle them

  • people will breed

  • tigers

  • and then each of those tigers has to be has to go somewhere so they're sold as pets or

  • whatever

  • those tigers get into trouble and then go to sanctuaries but the whole time there's

  • this big machine

  • which is creating more and more animals

  • which need help and so there's a it's a never-ending problem the only way the

  • only way that this is ever going to come under control and the only way it

  • really is going to be stopped

  • is national legislation oh certainly i mean i sit here and i listen to you

  • now and it seems to me that it's common sense that we ought to not allow people

  • to interact with tiger tiger cubs between the ages of eight weeks and

  • twelve weeks because that's a month

  • and so you must have

  • people that are continually breeding

  • tremendous amounts of tiger cubs so that they always have them available because

  • of course they can make money from doing this and think of the life of the tiger

  • afterwards how sad it is that of course now you're gonna ultimately probably get

  • called in to try to rescue what is an unsuitable pet from the backyard of

  • somebody and now you have to find a home

  • and the sad thing is the tiger ends up living in captivity for its life and

  • that is not an ideal solution to the problem absolutely

  • and although each state is different and some states have all ready

  • outlawed the keeping of dangerous wild animals such as tigers

  • by the general public it does go state by state and in many states it is

  • still legal and in many states you will find

  • people who who still

  • acquire these animals as pets and then often keep them in unsuitable conditions

  • where they suffer there is also the significant danger not only to the

  • owner but also to the public if these animals escape or if people get in with

  • an animal because they're not expecting there to be a tiger on the premises these these

  • kind of things so there is uh... considerable uh... public safety issue

  • involved with this as well the massachusetts school of law has a very dedicated

  • animal law program

  • here are two students well this summer we've been working on an internship uh...

  • together with another msl alum, rose church

  • and its in regards to captive tigers

  • and we're here to help create a multiorganizatinal effort

  • to help combat captive tigers

  • and to ensure that they're

  • not being brought around to all the different malls captive tigers are basically

  • tiger cubs are basically taken around to

  • different malls when they are between eight and twelve weeks old

  • they are petted and

  • uh... just some horrible

  • abuses are happening to these poor animals

  • and what do you think

  • personally you guys can do to help this problem

  • personally i would like to make it

  • more aware to the public about the captive tigers in the united states uh...

  • especially in new england uh... i was shocked by

  • uh... the numbers

  • anywhere between five thousand and twelve thousand captive tigers and i would like

  • to make that more aware to the public

  • i think that i agree with kaitlyn education is really key at this point in

  • time

  • because in new england we have no idea that this is going on

  • and

  • as kaitlyn indicated there are so many tigers that are being held in inhumane conditions

  • that education's really a key factor

  • now i know you both took animal law have you

  • worked on animal issues before

  • i have worked

  • uh... at the local level i have worked with a... local shelter

  • i have helped foster dogs i've

  • also created a program for people with disabilities where they collect

  • donations

  • and then take it into a shelter

  • I um

  • in high school was on a

  • wild animal rescue team

  • and we would take care of like squirrels and take care of eagles

  • and hawks and different things like that and then in college i was in animal club

  • and did things with the animal club and now at law school i took the animal law class

  • and hopefully helping the tiger situation

  • It seems that it always takes a tragedy before people will see a problem and act

  • on wednesday october nineteen twenty eleven

  • fifty-six exotic animals including lian's tigers bears giraffes wolves

  • were freed from their captivity at a rural residence outside of

  • zanesville ohio

  • police report that the animals owner terry thompson let the animals out of

  • their cages before he killed himself

  • when the carnage was over

  • forty-nine animals were slaughtered including eighteen bengal tigers

  • seventeen lions six black bears a pair of grizzlies three mountain lions two wolves

  • and a baboon

  • only six animals one grizzly bear

  • three leopards and two monkeys were captured alive and taken to the columbus zoo and

  • aquarium

  • this tragedy should not have happened

  • it is time to take action

  • write or call your congressman and tell them we need a federal ban on keeping

  • wild animals as pets its common sense

  • tell you a congressman to press the u_s_d_a_ to close the eight twelve-week

  • loophole

  • volunteer

  • contribute to one of the many animal welfare organizations that you saw on

  • the show

  • finally please please do not pay to play with a tiger cub

  • and do not have your picture taken with a tiger cub

  • so until next time

  • be the voice for for those who cannot speak

  • become educated on the things that you care about

  • like this topic

  • and above all you be well

  • i think we have a really good case for getting them to close the window and

  • the reason is they say up until eight weeks

  • the cat doesn't have sufficient immunology and so

  • what they didn't tell you they got it partially right they got it partially

  • right in that the cat does not have a proper immune system

  • but the fact is with domestic cats as probably all of your people know you

  • give kitten shots at 8 weeks 10 weeks and twelve weeks before they're actually

  • protected it's the same way with tiger cubs so they're not even protected until

  • twelve weeks

  • u_s_d_a_ has already said at twelve weeks they're too dangerous for handling so

  • what we hope

  • to presented to them is to say you guys had it right

  • aren't protected but they're not protected until the twelfth

  • week and we could just close that four week window it seems like it would be such an easy thing it is such a

  • problem at the state level and because the states have been delegated the the responsibility

  • for

  • controlling the trade an exotic animals in the keeping of exotic animals as pets

  • one thing we had great success in doing uh... about eight years ago was passing

  • the captive wildlife safety act which prohibits the interstate movement in big

  • cats like tigers lions leopards cougars or even hybrids if they're gonna be

  • kept as pets and so full enforcement of that law

  • which is not currently happening would be a huge boon to the stopping of

  • interstate movement of these animals

  • and really localizing the problems

  • so that states and communities can actually address the problems themselves

  • i think the other thing we need to do is focus on those states that's still

  • allow the trade go to those state legislatures show the incidents that

  • have happened in the states that have been uh... problematic where children have

  • been bitten

  • or otherwise hurt

  • show the number of people that we think are keeping tigers in those communities and

  • why it's a risk and urge them literally one by one

  • to change the state law

  • so that there won't be any communities left in the country where these animals

  • could be procured i think there's a number of things that we can do it and

  • there's a multitude of options on the table

  • um but it's they're all difficult and that's all it's a difficult slog all

  • the time trying to pass federal legislation trying to pass regulatory

  • change at the state and the federal level uh... i think that obviously the

  • holy grail in all of this

  • would be a ban on the private ownership of big cats with certain

  • exceptions for obviously reputable sanctuaries potentially for circuses for zoo

  • we haven't we don't have an organizational position on that at this

  • point

  • uh... but there are clearly a lot of options out there

  • um... that can help address this issue and its an issue that needs to be addressed without strong

  • both federal and state support for

  • proper and sensible legislation to control

  • the ownership of dangerous wild animals including big cats and specifically tigers

  • in the u_s_ this this

  • will continue to be a constant problems so for the

  • people in the

  • for the u_s_ government and for the people

  • in the u_s_ they need to be aware of

  • if they really care about tigers then we need to have stronger laws we need to

  • have stronger position to keep tigers in the wild to regulate make sure that the

  • tigers in captivity in this country do not go into illegal trade and which

  • simulate a market demand which guels poaching of tigers in the wild

oh

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