Placeholder Image

Subtitles section Play video

  • - Welcome to The Next Question, I'm Jenny.

  • - I'm Austin.

  • - I'm Chi-Chi.

  • - So today ladies we have Brené Brown with us.

  • - Whoop, whoop!

  • - Yeah!

  • - She is a New York Times bestselling author

  • of books like "Daring Greatly",

  • "Rising Strong", "Dare to Lead".

  • She is also a sociology researcher focused on shame,

  • vulnerability and courage.

  • She also has a TED Talk that I think

  • has like 48 million views or something.

  • So no pressure.

  • - Also "The Gifts of Imperfection".

  • - Yes, which is our collective favorite.

  • So ladies, what did we love about this conversation?

  • - We've been listening to Brené talk for

  • a long time about shame and vulnerability.

  • But it doesn't often penetrate specifically

  • into the lives of women of color,

  • and how being vulnerable and being courageous

  • and being brave can have extra costs associated to it.

  • So it's so good to sit down with her and say Brené,

  • but what about marginalized people?

  • What does all of this research have to say for us

  • who are dealing with so many systemic issues.

  • - And I really loved how we got to

  • some of the tough questions,

  • when you start talking about human connection.

  • What's at the core of all of this division.

  • Because so many times they can become an issue,

  • but we forget what it was supposed to be the fact

  • that we're supposed to be connected to each other,

  • and the fact that we're not

  • is what really causes all of these problems.

  • And I really appreciated her willingness to go there.

  • - Yes. - Totally.

  • - To have some really tough dialogue.

  • But also in the same way to imagine what

  • a better world can look like.

  • Especially between white women

  • and black women and women of color.

  • That was a part where we don't often get to do that,

  • name the thing,

  • name ways that white women have hurt women of color.

  • But also imagine it a different way.

  • And that was a really special conversation.

  • - Totally.

  • I think one of my favorite parts

  • of just doing the series in general

  • is when our guest will say,

  • I don't usually talk about this,

  • or I've never been asked this question,

  • and she said that a couple of times.

  • And that felt really just special

  • that we were tapping into a side of her

  • that is very much there,

  • like to hear about her being

  • in grad school reading bell hooks,

  • and just that she has been,

  • she's been in this work for a long time,

  • eyes wide open.

  • And for her to have an outlet to really dive in,

  • it felt kind of like an honor

  • to create that kind of space together with her.

  • - Shall we get to it?

  • - Yeah, it's time for The Next Question.

  • Brené, it seems that you have become more

  • and more vocal about racial justice issues.

  • Is there a recent moment that has sparked this,

  • or some sort of personal change

  • that has made you much more vocal about equity?

  • - I love all the warmup questions, I really--

  • I was like, hell, we're here.

  • So let me tell you the weird story.

  • I am a social worker,

  • I have a bachelors, Masters and PhD in social work.

  • The first class I ever took was like

  • structural oppression and genocide.

  • Like this is just how we're trained.

  • And so I didn't even,

  • and I was raised on a very healthy dose of bell hooks.

  • - Hey.

  • - That's what I'm talking about.

  • - Yeah huge,

  • when I first started teaching

  • I started teaching my first year in the doctoral program

  • I would sleep with "Teaching to Transgress".

  • - Listen.

  • - Next to my bed with her picture up,

  • so when I saw it in the morning,

  • I was like because I wanted to control the classroom

  • and everything that she said was like,

  • education is liberation, let it go, let it go.

  • And I was like, be aware of your whiteness.

  • So I think I've always been,

  • even if you go back to,

  • I Thought It Was Just Me.

  • Which was like, before The Gifts of Imperfection.

  • I write about race, privilege.

  • It's like I didn't,

  • it was weird to me that we use the term white supremacy,

  • when I was in graduate school like I was like,

  • that just seems like

  • a technically accurate term for what's happening.

  • And then I think there was a lulling into complacency.

  • And kind of always aware of it.

  • So I think I've always written about it and talked about it,

  • I just think it was always to the converted.

  • And so I think, do you know what I mean?

  • So now I think--

  • - Your audience has expanded

  • so much since then.

  • - And it's so interesting,

  • because I'll put something out there,

  • and they're like, oh my God you've become so radical.

  • And I'm like you know page 155,

  • 20 years ago, every paper I've ever written.

  • Like no, you become so complacent like.

  • And so I think I have a bigger audience now.

  • But I don't think it's,

  • I don't think I've changed that much, does that make sense?

  • - Absolutely.

  • - Who introduced bell hooks to you?

  • Like where did that come from?

  • - Who introduced bell hooks to me?

  • Probably either Jean Contabu Lating,

  • one of my mentors in graduate school.

  • Karen Stout, another mentor of Barbara Novak,

  • all mentors for me in graduate school.

  • We read you know like,

  • and I'm rereading her right now, rereading the trilogy.

  • The Love.

  • I am really working on a new strategy this month.

  • - What do you mean?

  • You're like, how your?

  • - It's like they got my hate.

  • I swore they wouldn't take my hate.

  • But they got my hate.

  • And then after that El Paso and Ohio shootings

  • I haven't been online in over a month.

  • - Wow.

  • - Like not Instagram, nothing.

  • Like I'm just something, I have to shift something.

  • So I'm trying to think maybe I've abandoned love too much,

  • so I'm rereading bell hooks right now.

  • And I think I have to start fighting.

  • I have this theory that if you're motivated by hate,

  • it's just not sustainable.

  • And I'll tell you this,

  • I've never talked about this publicly,

  • so these ideas are percolating,

  • like be gentle with me on social media as you watch this.

  • I think,

  • let me think about this for a minute,

  • I'm not filtering

  • I'm just really thinking about my thoughts,

  • I'm a pauser.

  • I don't think like hate

  • and shame-fueled activism is sustainable.

  • - I think there are a lot

  • of movement builders who would say the same thing,

  • and I think they would add anger actually to that list.

  • - I would add it too.

  • - Right, but it can maybe be

  • a catalyst. - A catalyst, yeah.

  • - But for sustainability.

  • - What doesn't work for me

  • and I find myself in these arguments like you know,

  • you're in your whiteness when you argue for privilege,

  • I mean for civility,

  • you're in your whiteness when you're saying no hate.

  • But I just wonder, I look at the health outcomes

  • for disenfranchised marginalized populations.

  • I look at blood pressure,

  • I look at like, even at the rage,

  • like what a price to pay.

  • When you're paying with your life.

  • And then it was really hard

  • and I'll be curious to see what you all think about this,

  • this is the part I haven't talked about.

  • I thought for like the last year

  • that it was maybe a return to my faith

  • where I would find a sustained fighting energy.

  • - Right.

  • - I'm not with the program --

  • I'm having a hard time,

  • I'm having a hard time.

  • I'm having a hard time.

  • - I found myself redefining what it means.

  • - Really?

  • Because I grew up Christian, evangelical.

  • And for the last three years I've had

  • just a complete.

  • First it all fell apart

  • where there was some things that happened,

  • specifically after a certain election where I was just like,

  • I do not understand this.

  • Like I don't understand how our faith,

  • this is how it's manifesting.

  • And I had to start from the beginning and just say,

  • what does this mean?

  • And my faith now doesn't look like what it did five, 10,

  • even when I was younger,

  • it has become this for me

  • it's more about how do I show up in the world

  • and the decisions that I make, how do they affect the whole.

  • Not just me.

  • Even as a black woman.

  • Because I think I resonate when you talk about

  • you can't let hate be the thing,

  • because at the end of the day I find myself getting to

  • the point where I don't even care if you're okay.

  • I don't care if you ever understand

  • that your privilege is wrong.

  • Demolish the whole thing, let's just move forward.

  • But how far does that actually get us?

  • - I don't know, I mean it's the right question.

  • - Right, are we just recreating what we've lived in now,

  • or are we actually creating something new

  • and imagining a world where there is actual connection

  • and believing that real community can exist.

  • Because there was a period of time

  • and I still struggle with it,

  • I didn't know if that was possible.

  • I was like, I don't know if we can actually live together.

  • - Yeah, I think I'm living in that question right now.

  • And it so goes against everything I believe.

  • But I don't see church helping.

  • - No right, no.

  • - It's definitely not leading on anything.

  • - It's not leading.

  • - It's not pastoring, it's not showing up.

  • - It's not telling the truth.

  • - It's not telling the truth.

  • I think it's marketing

  • and it staying safe and it's staying quiet,

  • it's trying not to ruffle too many feathers.

  • And I don't think that's not

  • the origins of the faith that I grew up in,

  • I don't recognize it today.

  • So I think I'm going back to the people that are,

  • shifting the lens.

  • Like shifting the lens helping me see it more,

  • like within the confines of what's happening today.

  • Like you can't be having it just be like all ideology

  • without it actually being implemented until today.

  • Whose life is different because of their faith,

  • those are the people I want to be around.

  • - That's right, reading your book,

  • your book got a lot of airtime

  • and airtime is not good for books in my house.

  • Because if I read something that's hard

  • I just toss it right across my bedroom.

  • - Oh that makes me so happy.

  • - Your book hits walls.

  • - I love it.

  • - The pain.

  • - It disappoints me when I ask people,

  • I ask people to do throw it.

  • And when people say no I'm like, "oh, okay."

  • - No, but I really--

  • - Why not?

  • - I threw it just pain,

  • because I think for me this is

  • the question that I'm wrestling with right now,

  • and I won't articulate it well because it's a new thought.

  • But I wanted to share it with you all,

  • because if not here, where?

  • There comes a moment when I'm reading your book,

  • and I've had this moment 100 times,

  • which is probably 99 times more than most people

  • who are white and have privilege.

  • But there comes a moment where I have to decide

  • whether you're bullshitting me or the pain is real.

  • I don't care if I'm reading Toni Morrison's "Beloved",

  • I don't care whether I'm reading your book.

  • There's just a pinpoint,

  • there's a moment where I have to say, is this true?

  • And every part of me is like,

  • I mean it's just hardwired in me,

  • no this is not true, she's exaggerating,

  • this couldn't happen,

  • they couldn't treat her like this at work.

  • And this is a Christian place.

  • I fight you.

  • And then I always ask myself

  • why is it so hard to believe it's true.

  • And the answer is pain.

  • Pain.

  • And it's like we have no tolerance for it,

  • we have no tolerance.

  • And all these really important really valuable

  • analysis of power and privilege are important.

  • But we're not talking about pain.

  • - This is such a great segue,

  • because one of the reasons

  • why we we're so excited to talk to you

  • is because it can be really difficult

  • to talk about what the themes

  • in your book mean for women of color.

  • Because it sounds really nice that black women are gonna

  • be courageous and brave and authentic and vulnerable,

  • but the price to pay for that in the workplace

  • for my story to be used against me.

  • For me to not be able to have playfulness,

  • to not be able to be goofy,

  • because I'm representing all black women

  • who will ever pass through these doors again.

  • It is so hard,

  • but it's genuinely hard to read and resonates with so much,

  • and then to think where could

  • I possibly put this into practice

  • that won't cause more pain for me.

  • - I think on the flip side, and I'll just add in,

  • and I'd love you to respond.

  • But I think you're talking

  • about people shying away from pain,

  • I think black women specifically we're like a pain vacuum,

  • we live in it constantly and it creates this

  • shell that it's so hard to.

  • And I think we're beginning to talk more about this,

  • like that's why we talk about joy being resistance,

  • and rest being resistance.

  • These things that should be just commonplace in people,

  • it's like this act of resistance,

  • because you are fighting through so much of that.

  • And so it's like that flip side of

  • like who's holding all this pain,

  • and then when we're sharing our pain it's like,

  • I don't know, I don't know if I believe you,

  • that can't be true.

  • And so I think that's the struggle,

  • when you're sharing these things,

  • and then someone doubts you and you're like,

  • okay, I don't know what else I can say.

  • - And how do you not internalize that,

  • and you're like maybe it isn't that big of a deal.

  • So it all becomes-- - Oh it is.

  • - Totally, but let's it sounds like--

  • - My therapist tells me.

  • - I think it's the right question,

  • and I think it's like,

  • it resonates with you and you read it,

  • and I talk to,

  • it's not just women of color,

  • it's any group that is marginalized in any space.

  • Says, yeah I want to be vulnerable too,

  • but this armor, this armor keeps me alive,

  • it keeps me employed.

  • - Right, right, right.

  • - So I understand you want me to take it off.

  • So here's the dilemma that we're all trying to figure out,

  • we have a belonging belief statement,

  • it's like our equity inclusivity statement

  • for my organization.

  • And we have, I think it's number five and six,

  • and one of them says we believe when we ask

  • that many people wear armor to stay alive,

  • to stay emotionally safe, sometimes physically safe.

  • And asking them to take it off

  • is asking them to risk physical, emotional,

  • spiritual danger.

  • Then the next one says,

  • but we believe asking generations

  • of people to have to wear armor every day

  • until we achieve perfect justice

  • is an unfair ask.

  • So until there are more black women leading,

  • Modeling vulnerability, making it safe.

  • Calling out people who said,

  • "Did you just use her vulnerability against her,

  • "did you just use what she shared?"

  • Until that, what is the answer?

  • The thing is,

  • there has got to be systemic change,

  • we cannot see the micro and macro apart.

  • You know what I mean, like we have to move policy-wise,

  • more representation

  • into leadership where there can be protection,

  • there can be a mentoring, there can be safety, real safety.

  • And at the same time how do we say,

  • you know what it can be better for people in 40 or 50 years,

  • you'll need to wear the 500 tons of armor every day,

  • even if it fricking kills you in the process.

  • So like how can we do that?

  • And I have to say I would think the most organic ally

  • for women of color in taking off armor

  • and showing up authentically should be white women.

  • - Should be.

  • - I don't know.

  • - I mean I think it speaks to how much whiteness is a drug.

  • - I was gonna say,

  • You're choosing your whiteness over your womanhood.

  • - Yeah, but even I watch the ways

  • that white women suffer upholding white supremacy.

  • You're not benefiting from this.

  • - No.

  • - Right?

  • Like there's something your soul isn't benefiting from

  • to be actually specific.

  • Your spirit, your personality.

  • - What you're driving might be...

  • - Right, is not benefiting from this.

  • And by separating from my pain

  • you're separating from your own pain.

  • - Totally.

  • But I think there's something else,

  • and I just don't, like I hate saying it,

  • but I know it's true.

  • It's also about men.

  • - Say that.

  • - It's also about I have made a deal,

  • I am in a contract right now.

  • And in order for me to get what I need,

  • I will catch the drippings of the power

  • from the white men around me

  • and I will take those drippings

  • and shape them into something for me.

  • So that explains that white female evangelical vote,

  • that explains like,

  • so it is a layer,

  • it is layers of race,

  • gender, class.

  • It's almost like it's easier for me to take

  • the scraps of power and do whatever I need to do to you

  • than it is to fight for my own.

  • Because generations, myself included,

  • were not raised that way.

  • And so I've come to believe, this is my new belief,

  • along with love, which I'm trying to get to.

  • Right now I'm just pissed off.

  • - Which I think is fair.

  • - Yeah, maybe pissed off comes before love.

  • - I think it does.

  • - But like five years of pissed off?

  • I'm tired of being that.

  • - But think about how long we've been doing this.

  • - Forever.

  • - Yeah, so five years in the span of things.

  • I mean I think there's so much that we have to reckon with,

  • that we have to wrestle with.

  • And part of it too I think is actually,

  • and I'm not old enough to feel like I can say this really,

  • but I think it's cyclical,

  • I think there's times when we feel like,

  • because I think the march towards justice

  • is five steps forward three steps back.

  • And I think that there are times when we feel like,

  • okay we're actually making progress.

  • And then there are times when it's like, wait, what?

  • - Progressions, regressions, progressions, regressions.

  • - Exactly.

  • - I really think white male power over,

  • not power within two,

  • the power over is really feeling

  • that they're making a last stand.

  • - Totally, it's like this final roar before hopefully, yeah.

  • - And I think last stands are violent and dangerous,

  • and many people are fighting for their lives.

  • And I really believe that the systems in place,

  • I don't believe in neutrality.

  • - I agree. - Totally.

  • - I believe you are either maintaining the systems

  • or you are dismantling them.

  • And for me that looks like

  • when I'm asked to speak somewhere,

  • I think about what it is they want me to talk about,

  • and the last three I've just turned them down and said,

  • there should be a woman of color.

  • I'm not going to do that.

  • Like follow,

  • listen.

  • Let others lead who have the experience.

  • - That is not what white men want to hear.

  • - That's not what anybody--

  • - Anybody.

  • - No white people at all,

  • white men or women want to hear that.

  • And I don't know, we have got a real.

  • I even think about the opioid epidemic

  • being evidence of somehow we have equated success with

  • if you're successful that means you don't feel pain.

  • We have no me,

  • and pain is part of the human experience,

  • it's how we grow and stretch and it's the stretchmarks.

  • And so I don't think we can get

  • where we need to go around race,

  • gender, any of it,

  • unless we're so good at causing pain,

  • and very bad at feeling pain.

  • - I think your work is amazing,

  • but I've also seen it being used

  • As a way of shielding,

  • white people shielding themselves from like,

  • racism or even talking about it.

  • It's like, shame is bad, don't shame me I'm not a racist.

  • - Don't call me a racist.

  • - Yeah exactly, that's a shame.

  • And I don't know whether that stems from your work,

  • but I think shame has become more of

  • a vernacular that we use these days.

  • But as you were talking I think

  • there is that need for people,

  • and I think it is a struggle

  • for white people to sit in pain,

  • because yes, that's a hard thing to hear.

  • But if you don't recognize that

  • and recognize that that's a wound in you.

  • Because I think sometimes when we say,

  • well I think that was a racist thing

  • or that person is racist,

  • it's like oh well, don't say a bad thing about me.

  • But it's identifying a wound,

  • because that is a break in connection with humanity.

  • - With self, with world, with God.

  • - Exactly, and so all of those things,

  • so it's just like naming that thing.

  • But people get so like, I don't want to deal with that.

  • And so for people like that I feel

  • like there's nothing else I can say.

  • We can't start there and say yes, this is a racist tendency,

  • I have racist tendencies in the world,

  • if you don't want to say I'm racist or whatever.

  • But if you can't start there

  • how do you move forward from that?

  • And so I think that being able to sit

  • in the pain of that and say yes.

  • My history is filled with this,

  • there has been abuse, there's been genocide,

  • all of that falls in the line of

  • how I get to sit here in this privilege today.

  • And now what?

  • How do we move forward?

  • How do I hear things.

  • How do I listen, how do I follow?

  • - I mean it makes me like, can shame be a tool towards,

  • like better, like better.

  • - I don't believe so.

  • I absolutely do not believe,

  • I believe shame is a tool of oppression,

  • it will never be an effective social justice tool, ever.

  • It is the tool of stigmatizing, reducing, dehumanizing.

  • I do not believe it will ever be a social justice tool.

  • I think about I took this whole course on Audre Lorde,

  • and I think of this whole idea of

  • the master's tools will not dismantle the master's house.

  • The shame is the tool of the patriarchy,

  • it's the tool of nationalism, it's the tool of supremacy.

  • Why would we ever pick it up to dismantle those things?

  • - Even hearing you use those other words, dehumanization,

  • like that's helpful right,

  • because so many people use shame and discomfort,

  • or shame and I don't like that.

  • Interchangeably, as opposed to right like,

  • dehumanization very different

  • from I've made you uncomfortable.

  • - I'm not dehumanizing you by saying you are racist.

  • - I would say, so here's what

  • I would say as the shame purest.

  • I would say there is a difference

  • between that is a racist statement,

  • a racist belief and you are a racist.

  • I would say there's a big difference,

  • and I'll tell you what difference is.

  • And I know I'm in weird territory here talking about this.

  • If, let's just take it out of

  • this room and use a very simple example.

  • You've got a child,

  • this is always a debate when I do parenting work.

  • Who has told you a lie, and you said you can't do that,

  • you can't lie.

  • What is the difference between that and saying,

  • "Hey, you're a liar."?

  • The difference is that shame corrodes

  • our belief that we can change or be better,

  • so if you are a racist there is no intervention point,

  • what is the change, it's who you are.

  • If you're a liar it's who you are.

  • If you're bad versus you made a bad choice as a kid,

  • you're just bad.

  • And so the way shame specifically disproportionately used

  • as a classroom management tool with children of color,

  • with poor kids, with kids.

  • And so the difference is if you say,

  • that is a very racist response.

  • Or there was so much deep racism in that.

  • There is an intervention point,

  • I have to change a belief or behavior,

  • this is not about who I am.

  • - Dr. Kendi just came out with this book.

  • And in his introduction he talks about the fact

  • that we can toss around who's racist

  • and who's not forever,

  • try to scale it up and take a test

  • and here's your quiz and all these things.

  • - I would love that actually.

  • - Right.

  • and he's like, but at the end of

  • the day we have to deal with the racist thought,

  • with the racist policy, with the way racism

  • is manifesting itself in the world

  • and leave who is or who isn't at the door,

  • because trying to figure that out isn't working.

  • It's taking too much of our energy

  • and focus off of actually dismantling

  • these things that are maintaining it,

  • whether or not we're involved or not.

  • - Right, and I think that's the hard thing about shame.

  • It's like, I'm a worrier

  • when it comes to my kids and things,

  • and I'm always worst-case scenario and things,

  • even though I tell people not to do that in my books.

  • Researcher heal thyself.

  • I get it, I'm working on it,

  • you don't have to be Freud to know

  • why I write about shame and these things,

  • because I suck at all of them.

  • But if I thought you could shame someone into changing,

  • even knowing how much pain shame causes us,

  • I would probably do it.

  • But what we know, I probably would

  • just to protect my kids, to protect things I believe in.

  • But here's what we know,

  • if you look at shame pro-ness in the general population,

  • it is so highly correlated with blame, rationalization,

  • violence, suicide, addiction,

  • depression, aggression.

  • Shame is not a moral compass,

  • what it causes us to do is to double down,

  • defend, blame, rationalize.

  • Does that make sense?

  • And so if someone said to me,

  • I just think if a teacher says to me,

  • "God you're stupid."

  • How do you get out from underneath that?

  • As opposed to look, you made D minus,

  • real stupid decision not to study for this test.

  • Who you are versus the choices you make,

  • it's a huge difference and we have a massive outcome.

  • Because I'll tell you

  • the difference between shame and guilt.

  • Is I've never had a conversation about race

  • where I did not painfully have to learn one new blind spot.

  • Ever.

  • And I just keep getting in them

  • because that's the only way through,

  • that's it, that's it.

  • And I think I'll tell you the other thing

  • that's very different for me then I think,

  • because I am a social worker,

  • and because I've spent

  • the last 22 years at the University of Houston,

  • most racially and ethnically diverse

  • research university in the country.

  • So my class is always 25% African-American,

  • 25% white, 25% Latina.

  • That when I ask questions like:

  • tell me your instant bias,

  • it's always a black student will raise their hand and say,

  • if you cut me off and you got an old car

  • and you get out and you're Asian,

  • I'm gonna be like, hey, this isn't China.

  • The black students are talking about their racism and bias,

  • the Asian students are talking about it.

  • The Muslim students are talking about it.

  • I remember I wrote about this in one of the books,

  • it may have been "Daring Greatly",

  • I remember we did an exercise where everyone in the class

  • had to talk about their privilege

  • and what privilege they had.

  • Because I'm like, "You've got something,

  • "because this is graduate school,

  • "so you've got some privilege somewhere.

  • "We're in graduate school."

  • - Right.

  • - And I remember there was just quiet,

  • and I think the white students were really nervous.

  • They were like oh man, she doesn't understand how it works,

  • she said this is like a white exercise.

  • And finally a young black woman raised

  • her hand and she said,

  • "I wear my faith around my neck every day."

  • She had a cross.

  • And she said, "And I can wear it without people assuming

  • "that I'm dangerous or I'm trying to kill them."

  • And a Latino student raised his hand and said,

  • "I love to go to the movies,

  • "I love to hold hands with my wife.

  • "I don't have to worry about getting hit over the head

  • with a baseball bat

  • because I'm holding hands with someone."

  • And it was the most deeply humanizing,

  • you know like white supremacy is as real

  • as us sitting in this beautiful living room.

  • If we don't call it that, we can't fix it.

  • All the people from Texas who are like,

  • oh my God those are our statues.

  • I'm like,

  • what makes me so proud of being a Texan,

  • it is "know better do better".

  • Do you know what I mean like

  • changing the Albert Sidney Johnston School

  • to the Barbara Jordan proud Texas moment.

  • But there's so much fear.

  • - And it's way the system was set up,

  • it's set up to create fear and to separate us

  • so that we don't think about.

  • And I think we were just talking about white women

  • and women of color,

  • that division, that's intentional, right?

  • - Oh it serves tons of people.

  • - Exactly.

  • You take this little,

  • you get the rest of those little scraps and then fighting--

  • - Amongst yourselves.

  • - When we know that there would be, like you said--

  • - That's it.

  • - It would be our greatest ally,

  • we would be each others greatest ally.

  • Women, black women were

  • a major part of the feminist movement,

  • even when they knew that

  • they weren't gonna get the right to vote.

  • There were black women saying,

  • I'm still gonna fight for this.

  • So I think we see what happens,

  • but then white supremacy says, you're better off separate.

  • And this would be better for us at the end of the day,

  • and we get nothing done,

  • we just keep like fighting for that.

  • - A fight amongst yourself is

  • the most silent dangerous tool of oppression.

  • - Totally.

  • - I mean it is.

  • And you see we have an administration now

  • that just pushes so much divisiveness

  • and so much fear.

  • - Fear everyone.

  • Fear everyone, fear everything.

  • - Every day.

  • - Just be afraid all the time.

  • - Well it's working, because I am.

  • - Yeah, no, it's totally working.

  • It is like power 101.

  • If you want to rule the world there's just a few secrets,

  • one, keep everyone really afraid.

  • Two, give them someone to blame for their fear.

  • And sell them certainty in times of mass vulnerability.

  • That's it.

  • That's it, that's all you have to do.

  • Give them someone to hate, someone to blame,

  • keep them afraid,

  • and peddle uncertainty when everyone's unsure.

  • It sounds good to me, but I'm really afraid,

  • I just know it makes everyone crazy and dangerous.

  • - Yeah, I don't know how to like,

  • I have all these like random, disparate thoughts,

  • I heard an interview with you what you're defining blame

  • as a way to discharge pain and discomfort,

  • and then I'm quoting you again,

  • where you can either have courage or you can have comfort,

  • you can't have both.

  • And I wonder if white women

  • are choosing comfort over courage again and again.

  • That there's like a known with

  • just maintaining white supremacy,

  • there is a known with

  • upholding the patriarchy that feels comfortable,

  • and that is somehow appealing and keeping us complacent.

  • Right?

  • So how do you make courage,

  • yeah like be inevitable?

  • - Desirable?

  • - Yeah, how do you make that so compelling

  • that it's worth to leave that,

  • yeah, and I would say that I think your work

  • is encouraging individuals to leave individual comfort.

  • How do we take that and like multiply it,

  • and make it a massive, let's all be doing this together?

  • - I thought it was gonna be at church.

  • I don't know, I have moments I'm in Episcopal pain,

  • there are moments where we had the Episcopal meet up

  • of all the bishops and stuff recently in Texas

  • and they went to the detention centers on the border

  • in full regalia,

  • and they had an anti-gun rally

  • and so I was really proud at

  • that moment of the Episcopal Church,

  • because that's how you keep

  • white people with money at the church.

  • So I don't know,

  • I was hoping the faith communities

  • would lead a little some of that,

  • because it seems like Jesus is a great example of someone

  • who was willing to piss off people and be a rebel around.

  • Collective courage, it's interesting,

  • I don't think it takes a whole lot of people.

  • It takes a critical mass of people.

  • - When I think about every social movement we've had,

  • none of them have involved everyone.

  • - Right. - Right.

  • - Always people who are fighting against it, right?

  • But the committed push on anyway.

  • - And I think it's policy,

  • I think you've got to change policy.

  • I think oh man, I saw this graphic,

  • hold on, let me think about what it said.

  • It was Angela Davis holding a sign that said

  • racism is systemic, its violent outbursts are all connected.

  • And so racism is systemic,

  • its violent outbursts are all connected.

  • Like rhetoric around immigrants that's dehumanizing,

  • and then the El Paso shooting, theory, action.

  • And so we're reading the new anti-racism book

  • as our organization, our company redirect now,

  • and the whole idea of system change, policy change.

  • And weirdly in some ways corporations

  • are doing a better job,

  • they are much less tolerant

  • in some ways than our government right now.

  • - I think that's again, because of Title Nine,

  • and other policies--

  • - I think it's other policies.

  • - That says you must look at this.

  • - But I think also though

  • that we have seen all these companies

  • get reamed for doing things that are really insensitive,

  • but I think there's also, not to be crass,

  • but it's more profitable,

  • the more diverse you are the better you can reach out to,

  • because our world is just becoming more diverse,

  • in some ways you have to start doing those things,

  • you have to start changing if you want to keep making money.

  • But our government doesn't have to.

  • - But you know that's really,

  • not only is that a really great point, I'll take it.

  • - Oh yeah.

  • - I'm sold.

  • Like I'll take it.

  • Because it's really interesting when you go,

  • because I do a lot of leadership work,

  • and you go to these leadership events

  • and you'll have people presenting,

  • you can see that companies are pretty terrified

  • because they're like for the first time ever

  • there are consumers who can organize online

  • in 10 minutes and bring down a brand or a company.

  • So these big companies that want diverse consumers

  • need diverse leaders.

  • And so I'll take it that way.

  • - We have got to start somewhere.

  • - Right, and I just,

  • I don't know, I just always was a big believer

  • in we should have a government

  • that takes care of the most vulnerable people,

  • and I just don't know that the government is.

  • - Right, we really need to be changing hearts and minds,

  • if at the end of the day we can change the outcome,

  • like if we can, right?

  • - I mean that's like--

  • - I think we have to do both.

  • - For sure.

  • - But I will take that.

  • - Exactly, it's the outcome that changes.

  • - Because when people are dying and on the street,

  • then yes, I want to policy change.

  • But I know that that won't sustain us

  • unless people start coming behind that.

  • There is some sort of change.

  • But trust me, I want both,

  • I want protection--

  • - I'm with you.

  • - But I also want,

  • I want just for my own self and for the future,

  • my niece and my nephew and the kids that I see,

  • I want a world where they don't have

  • to keep struggling like this.

  • When I'm any role when I'm in a position,

  • like you were talking about always think

  • about who's coming behind me

  • and how am I creating a space where people are like,

  • you know what, this is better.

  • - Totally.

  • - We may have had to do this, but now this is better,

  • because we're seeing things from a different perspective.

  • There is no way you can make the best decision

  • and everybody around the table is the same.

  • You just can't.

  • - You just can't.

  • - It's just impossible.

  • - At the end of the day there's just so much data on it now.

  • Like just companies that have women,

  • Companies that have people of color, they just do better,

  • they perform better.

  • - Exactly, and that's in every aspect.

  • And I'm glad corporations are doing it,

  • but churches should be doing this,

  • or schools should look better.

  • We see the impact of people

  • who have teachers who look like them,

  • I didn't have a teacher that looked like me,

  • a professor that looked like me or a teacher

  • that looked like me until I was in grad school.

  • - Yep, I was in college.

  • - What does that do to your psyche,

  • and some in every space I think we have to start doing that.

  • But I'm hoping that places that are modeling this,

  • because it's better for their bottom line,

  • it's gonna start something

  • that we start seeing this everywhere,

  • even in places where they're not making a profit.

  • But we got better leaders, we get better employees.

  • - It's just better.

  • And not seeing yourself, not seeing yourself.

  • I remember first year of my doctoral program I went to like,

  • I don't know there was like,

  • I forget, we had a new president coming in,

  • so they sent an academic

  • from every university in the country

  • and they walk down in a line like

  • in Harvard's version of the oldest university,

  • and I just remember looking over to

  • the person sitting next to me and I was like,

  • and he looked at me and he goes, "pale male Yale".

  • And I was like, yeah.

  • Oh my God.

  • And then I got pregnant in my doctoral program

  • and I remember the person telling me,

  • my doctoral program director at the time,

  • we thought you were gonna be somebody.

  • And I was like, it's like a baby, not a lobotomy.

  • - I can still work.

  • Yeah I can do this,

  • but just not seeing yourself reflected back

  • in the world that you want to be a part of

  • and make a contribution in.

  • - And then that sends the message

  • that you don't belong here.

  • - And that's the painful message.

  • - Are you have to be like us,

  • if you want to even attempt to belong.

  • It's not a fully open door.

  • - You don't want to notice

  • that you actually aren't one of us.

  • - Right and I think that was

  • what was painful about your book.

  • Yeah painful, that's the only word I can think of.

  • Eye opening, healing, but right after the pain

  • like there was the pain and then the other part.

  • And I just think people are not willing to fill it.

  • - Yeah, well I've said this to you

  • I think your book gave language to a like of similar,

  • I think what you've talked about in your work,

  • that it's getting language

  • to things that seemingly go hidden or invisible,

  • until you actually let people into them.

  • Yeah like, I know this

  • isn't just like a yay for Austin's book,

  • but it could be.

  • - I'm for it.

  • - Okay great,

  • when you go through your day--

  • - Oh my God.

  • - I feel that that was the ballgame,

  • that for so many people was like holy,

  • that was one day, that was one day,

  • and just thing after thing after thing.

  • That's weighing you down and that you had no outlet for it.

  • - And I know, I think I read

  • it before it was even published,

  • so you sent it to me,

  • and I remember I responded,

  • I was like, "thank you for writing this,

  • this is my story."

  • - You did, I remember.

  • - I felt like this is, this is me on paper.

  • And we worked in the same institution,

  • we didn't know each other until like the very end.

  • But I remember the first time we had coffee

  • and there were very few, I think--

  • - Maybe five.

  • Maybe out of 250.

  • - Yeah, like five women.

  • - Not even women.

  • - No, just by black people.

  • - Black people, yeah.

  • So I remember sitting down with you and,

  • I don't know why we met

  • but I just remember it was an hour or two later,

  • and we're like why have we not.

  • - I wanted to climb in her lap.

  • - It was just--

  • - Yeah, it was the most healing space that I had ever.

  • And we worked at a church.

  • And I will always say for black women

  • the most healing space you can ever be

  • in as with other black women,

  • because at that moment

  • you're finishing each other's sentences,

  • you don't even have to, but they know.

  • - And they believe you.

  • - Exactly, you don't have to qualify it.

  • And I think that is one of the most exhausting things,

  • it's like when you are,

  • when you are walking through this and you take the most,

  • step out in courage and saying

  • I'm gonna share this with someone.

  • Who's not like me, and they don't believe you.

  • - So painful.

  • It's so painful.

  • - And people wonder, they always talk about strong women,

  • black women,

  • and that has been because you get that,

  • you retreat right back and you put that back up.

  • And you're like, you know what,

  • I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna soldier through.

  • And what kind of life is that?

  • That's not wholehearted living like you're talking,

  • that is not it at all.

  • It is just, and then,

  • but it takes so much time to undo all of that.

  • And I am grateful because I think there is

  • this revolution between black women

  • where we're finding each other in more spaces,

  • and we're starting to say,

  • even if the world doesn't support you, we've got your back.

  • We will be behind you as we do this,

  • and I'm hoping that creates even more change.

  • But it takes an army,

  • for every black woman you see

  • out there doing whatever she's doing,

  • you know there is a massive group of people behind her

  • That are--

  • - Cheering her on,

  • supporting her. - Supporting her,

  • cheering her and saying we got you.

  • - Listening and believing.

  • - Without question.

  • And I think that's the thing that I,

  • and I'm not gonna say that I don't,

  • I have white women in my life that are amazing

  • and will believe me,

  • and that is the healing thing in itself when you are like,

  • okay, now I have found you and I will hold on to you,

  • but that's not everybody.

  • And it is hard to get into that,

  • I don't know if you feel the same way,

  • but I'm very distrustful,

  • I just assume the worst immediately.

  • - Oh you better come with a resume, cover letter.

  • - Evidence.

  • - Yeah, because the betrayal history.

  • It's like the betrayal history.

  • - There's a movie that Jenny

  • and I saw when we were in college,

  • I think this part two of "The Color of Fear",

  • I don't think it was the original "Color of Fear".

  • I think they did a couple more

  • and there's one with just women,

  • multiracial women sitting in a group.

  • And there was a white woman who was crying

  • and talking about how she's trying to be loving

  • and kind to the black women in the room

  • and the black women just ignores her

  • and won't give her a chance,

  • and it just hurts her heart that she isn't trusted.

  • And the black woman, like you watch her inhale and exhale.

  • And she says, "I need you to know

  • "that every time I form a relationship

  • with another white person

  • I am crawling on my hands and knees

  • over the broken shards

  • of other relationships where I was betrayed."

  • - But I also believe, like I read this,

  • you cannot lead a diverse team

  • if you do not lead a diverse life.

  • - Yes. - Hot damn.

  • - Hot damn.

  • - Yes.

  • - I just think, all my gosh, yes.

  • - Is that the great quote?

  • - That does not just mean being married

  • to or having a child of color.

  • - Oh my God, they think that's the golden ticket.

  • - It's like my spouse,

  • or people talk about we want

  • to work on diversity in our company,

  • let's have a workshop, let's have a class.

  • I'm like, that's not gonna do anything.

  • - It's not a one and done.

  • - If the people you're learning from

  • is not a diverse group of authors,

  • if you don't have a diverse group of friends,

  • the movies should you go see, the music that you listen to,

  • the world that you immerse--

  • - Movies, music, yes.

  • - All of that stuff,

  • you can't be reading the same people all the time

  • and then say you care about diversity.

  • Like show me your life,

  • and then I'll tell you whether or not--

  • - You care about diversity.

  • - Yeah.

  • - And in their neighborhoods.

  • - Yes. - Yes.

  • - If you have to get on a plane

  • to go somewhere to see people of color

  • - Right.

  • - Oh my gosh.

  • Well we used to do an activity when we would lead workshops

  • where we gave everyone marbles,

  • and then we went down a list and it was like,

  • watch the last two restaurants you went to.

  • Did the people look like you are not?

  • What's the last movie you watched?

  • And down, down, down, down.

  • And then you get this inventory of either,

  • and usually it is--

  • - Like here is your representation.

  • - Here's your representation.

  • - Are all your models white.

  • - Yes, or are they a different color.

  • And it was like so powerful just to see that

  • and to realize you have power

  • over every single one of these choices.

  • - That's right, this isn't big stuff.

  • - Yeah, this is not crazy.

  • Like who did you invite over for dinner last Sunday.

  • What book did you,

  • no one is telling you you cannot read books.

  • No one is screening you for movies,

  • these are all things that you have agency over.

  • - We want you to participate in culture.

  • - Right.

  • - And hopefully--

  • - That's true, right.

  • And it's like, and I think about the diverse life I've led,

  • and how I can't deny.

  • I remember the first time I am a shopper for sure,

  • but I can remember the first time

  • I was ever followed in a store.

  • I was with a black friend

  • and we were at the store that will remain unnamed,

  • and we were just shopping--

  • - This time.

  • - This would be Brene Brown outs the store.

  • - No, yeah, it would not be

  • a shockeroo in Texas about the store.

  • And I was with my friend Eliza,

  • and we were working together

  • at child protective services in Houston,

  • I mean in San Antonio,

  • and I was like, God, this guy is flirting hard core.

  • Eliza was like.

  • - That is not what's happening.

  • - She looks at me and she goes,

  • "You cute, but you ain't that cute."

  • I was like, "What?"

  • And she goes, "Watch, I'll make him flirt with me."

  • And I was like, "What are you gonna do?"

  • And she said, "I'm just gonna move over here 10 feet."

  • And I was like what is happening.

  • And then I was like,

  • oh my God he's following us because you're black.

  • And he thinks we're shoplifting.

  • I'm gonna go, and she's like,

  • "Oh no, white savior, I do not need you."

  • And she's like, "I got to be back at work in an hour,

  • I will not have time to go to jail right now."

  • - But this is so real,

  • the ways that black women and other women of color,

  • other people of color have

  • to navigate actual instances of racism on a regular basis

  • and decide I do not have time for the shenanigans.

  • - Exactly.

  • - And it was like, this is unconstitutional.

  • This is bullshit.

  • And she goes, "Oh my God, write about it

  • in a paper for school."

  • And I was like--

  • - That happens to me.

  • - Then we go out on a visit

  • and we're in a hard neighborhood,

  • and we're pulling up to a light

  • and there's a group of kids and they look rough,

  • and she goes "lock your door."

  • And I was like, "I'm not locking my door."

  • I said, "I'm not locking the door."

  • I was like, "That's so racist."

  • She said, "I'm not dying because of your white guilt.

  • "I'm not gonna die today because you're a white guilty girl,

  • "lock your door."

  • I was like, and this was every interaction we had,

  • so I was like, oh.

  • And she goes, "Okay."

  • Then, this gets worse.

  • Then like a month later I'm in Kansas City,

  • and again I'm doing work with a friend,

  • she is black, she goes,

  • "I've never had a white person over in my house before."

  • And I was like, "You're old, like we're 40."

  • and she's like, "Never."

  • She's like, "Do you want to come over for dinner tonight?"

  • and I was like, "Yes."

  • and she said, "I'm gonna make soul food."

  • And I was like, "I'm so excited" because any kind of food,

  • that sounds really good.

  • I was so bummed out, we get to her house,

  • she's like, "Come in."

  • I was like, "Stop giving me the side eye,

  • "I'm not gonna take anything."

  • And she's like, "All right, here's dinner."

  • and it was like country ribs, greens,

  • and I was like, "I was excited about soul food."

  • And she's like, "What?"

  • And I said, "I was excited that we were gonna eat soul food"

  • And she said, "This is soul food."

  • And I said, "I eat this at my grandma's house every Sunday."

  • She said, "You grandma black?"

  • Because she is like, "I think that's where Brené came from."

  • And I was like, "No, my grandma is white."

  • And she's like, "She's southern and poor?"

  • and I'm like, "Yes."

  • She's like, "Okay"

  • Yes and what I realized is like,

  • one of the things I have in common

  • I think with a lot of my black girlfriends,

  • not all, but many, the first was class.

  • Was like upbringing, was church,

  • but when you lead that life

  • and you have friends that are different from you,

  • you can't get to the pain point in your book.

  • And deny the truth of it,

  • because you're the friend

  • they're crying with in the elevator.

  • But I don't know how we're gonna fix that,

  • because as we come more fearful we become more sorted.

  • I mean we literally people are moving.

  • - We get our corners.

  • - We are the most sorted geographically

  • in the history of our country.

  • That we have ever been,

  • there's this great book called "The Big Sort"

  • that talks about the shifting demographic

  • where people don't even want to go to grocery stores,

  • or church or their kids go

  • to school with people who believe--

  • So how, if we all agree,

  • and I think we agree right

  • that you have to live a diverse life,

  • if you're gonna be a diverse person?

  • - Yeah, I think the lack of proximity is a huge issue.

  • And our work spaces,

  • some of them have diverse some of them are not.

  • But if you are in one,

  • even that is it's very compartmentalized,

  • where it's like okay, this is what I do here,

  • then I go to my neighborhood and all of my neighbors,

  • they look all the same,

  • our churches are even more segregated.

  • - I think they are the most segregated now.

  • - I don't think it's getting better.

  • Our schools, that's a whole other.

  • The thing is I think it's like I think at some point

  • we have to,

  • it's about the choices that we make,

  • so how do we.

  • Because all those things add up,

  • so we want good schools for our kids,

  • and yet so that means,

  • I got to pick a school in the wealthy neighborhood

  • and want to make sure.

  • And it's all good intentions, right?

  • Like I want my kid to be safe,

  • I want them to have a good education,

  • I want them to be able to get a great job.

  • So what does that mean?

  • I have to pull myself away

  • and make sure everything around me

  • brings safety for my kids

  • and that they're gonna succeed.

  • And at some point I think we have to think about

  • what's best for the greater good.

  • It's not just about my kid, but it's about the other kids.

  • And not just in our neighborhood, but in our city.

  • I think we just don't think about those things.

  • It's all like how do I protect my own?

  • - Well it's hyper-individualized,

  • which is also probably a tool of white supremacy,

  • because you're only thinking about the individual,

  • you're not thinking about a collective ever.

  • So not only making all of those choices out of that.

  • - When you're thinking about the collective

  • it's still built on racist ideals.

  • So the difference between

  • the good school and the bad school,

  • what does that mean, does that mean black and white,

  • or does that actually mean resource poor.

  • - Test scores.

  • - And is there a place in our imaginations

  • where a good school could be the diverse one?

  • - There is a sharing of resources,

  • we're not hoarding all the resources in one part.

  • - And everybody gets a free lunch.

  • - Exactly.

  • - That defines a good school.

  • - I'm gonna be the terrible person here.

  • - Do it. - Go ahead.

  • - That's gonna have to be policy change,

  • no one is going to do that.

  • No one, when it comes to their kid,

  • is going to make a collective political choice

  • over the safety and education of their child

  • if they have the resources to make the change.

  • That is gonna have to be,

  • that is gonna have to be like.

  • Do you think I've just gotten--

  • - No but this is the thing--

  • - Do I not believe in people any more, like what's?

  • - I think there's proof.

  • - We've segregated,

  • there was policy that integrated schools

  • and what happened was that white people are like,

  • hell no, I'm not gonna do this.

  • - Let me get out of the policy.

  • - I'm moving--

  • - White flight.

  • - Yeah, we're gonna create,

  • we'd rather see that's cool just fail

  • than send our kids there.

  • So they have to figure out a way to fix it.

  • So I think that even with policy

  • people have to want that.

  • Because they will figure out a way around it.

  • - Right.

  • - So here's the good news.

  • I'm gonna give you some good news.

  • On a drink share.

  • - Cheers to good news.

  • - Cheers to good news.

  • I hate going back to this because

  • I am the last evangelist for corporations,

  • but I will say that one of the things I'm seeing

  • is there has been a little bit of a loss of

  • that kind of infatuation with the Ivys,

  • because they are looking more at hiring

  • people who have had exposure to diverse people

  • and can move around people comfortably.

  • So again.

  • - There are a lot of awkward white people in the world.

  • - Oh my God.

  • Let me tell you something.

  • I am probably one of them too.

  • but I will tell you all this story.

  • I took a class, I tell this story sometimes

  • to help people understand some of the things.

  • So there was a class at UT Austin called The Black Family,

  • and I took this class and I was super excited

  • that Professor of this class, Ruth McRoy

  • famous trans-racial adoption expert, just incredible.

  • And I go in and the class is probably 90% black.

  • And I go in and I have a seat next to a friend of mine

  • who is in the social work program.

  • And we're talking, she is black,

  • and we are talking and class starts

  • and Doctor McRoy comes to the front,

  • she just commands, everybody's quiet.

  • She started to talk about the black family

  • and then in bops this young woman,

  • blonde, big ponytail.

  • And I'm like,

  • don't sit next to me, don't sit next to me.

  • No, no, no, no.

  • And she's coming and my friend goes,

  • "She's coming for you."

  • And I was like, oh my God.

  • So she sits next to me and Doctor McRoy is talking.

  • And she goes.

  • - Oh no.

  • - And you can just see me,

  • I'm like, I was like, and she goes,

  • "Here's the question I have."

  • - Oh God.

  • - She said, "if there was a class

  • at the University of Texas

  • at Austin called The White Family,

  • people would say that was racist.

  • And Doctor McRoy she doesn't move a muscle,

  • she's just like,

  • "What's interesting there are 77 courses

  • at the University of Texas on the family,

  • all of them by default would be the White family.

  • And there was just like,

  • if looks could kill this person.

  • So by this time my ass is all the way hanging on,

  • I'm in the lap of my friend over here, and she says.

  • - I'm not here.

  • - She's like, "Don't worry, we can tell you all apart."

  • I was like, oh my God.

  • But every class period she would a,

  • but there were like 75 classes.

  • - What kills me is that white people actually

  • think they've come up with a new thing.

  • - No, it's nothing original.

  • - She really believed that

  • she was gonna march into that room--

  • - She's gonna razzle-dazzle.

  • - And a professor was not going to have a response.

  • - That's true.

  • - This is reverse racism, it does exist.

  • - It was.

  • - And you found it.

  • - That's the one with the label.

  • - But it's like I thought that answer,

  • and I don't usually share that whole part of the story,

  • I just share the question,

  • but don't share my own awkward white person.

  • Anyway.

  • - Professor I'd just like to say you're doing a great job.

  • - And I understand clearly why we need this class.

  • Could you imagine that?

  • - Got Brené Brown.

  • - My name is Cassandra.

  • Just in case that makes a difference.

  • - Cassandra Brené Brown here.

  • But it was just when people say,

  • I don't understand what does that mean,

  • I was like, unless the class is about the black family

  • or the Latino family, the default is the white family.

  • That means, all of the research, all of the books,

  • all of the writers, all of the studies.

  • Just like when breast cancer research first came out,

  • all the studies on breast cancer on men.

  • People are dying.

  • And so, they're like so,

  • the dominant one's invisible?

  • - I'm like, welcome.

  • - I'm sorry that you're in

  • a grad school that you're learning this.

  • That is mind blowing.

  • But it's not.

  • - This is actually an undergrad class, I'll give her that.

  • - There are a lot of aha--

  • - She didn't stop asking.

  • - Of course not

  • - Right.

  • - Because that's the difference I think white people,

  • it doesn't even matter

  • if they are the minority in the group,

  • they will always take up the comfortable

  • - As much space as they can.

  • - Yes exactly.

  • And it's always shocking to me,

  • you just feel comfortable

  • in any space you walk into.

  • But that's--

  • - Actually.

  • - Yeah exactly.

  • Because I'm not, like I know what I want,

  • I'm like I'm sizing up everything.

  • - I know immediately whether or not I need to shrink.

  • - Yes, exactly.

  • And I never see that, and this just like wow.

  • That is, it's impressive.

  • And not probably in a good way.

  • I was like impressive or entitled.

  • - But when you don't experience that,

  • it can mask as bravery and mask as--

  • - Oh it's not bravery.

  • - Well it's not, but not until we have unpacked it,

  • as a black woman who was often in rooms as the only one

  • who's watching other women, white,

  • but other women command a room.

  • And I'm like, I know I have that in me.

  • - Is it bravery or is it confidence

  • or is i?

  • - Usually in my head I'm like well that's bold.

  • - What I think entitled is the right word.

  • - I think entitled is the right word.

  • - I think it is, but is it coming across, I wonder, yeah.

  • - I think it's entitlement

  • and I think it's built on a foundation of physical safety.

  • - Wherever you go.

  • - I think it's an assumption of physical safety.

  • Like you know, and so I think--

  • - It's true, there are.

  • This is really interesting,

  • because white people so often think of themselves as safe,

  • that their neighborhoods are safe

  • and their schools are safe,

  • and they have done all this work around safety.

  • And they're not safe for people of color.

  • But they would never think that about themselves.

  • So like the black neighborhood is

  • the place that is not safe.

  • As opposed to me being in this ritzy corporate organization,

  • like that's where I'm not safe.

  • - Or in an all-white neighborhood.

  • - Wow, talk about not feeling safe.

  • - It's like the opening of "Get Out".

  • - Exactly.

  • - Where he's walking and he's like,

  • I don't want to be here.

  • - And I feel the temperature in my body rising.

  • - Yeah. - Yeah.

  • - Yeah. - That's real.

  • - That's real.

  • - Yeah, I just read this interesting study

  • that slowing people down can reduce implicit bias.

  • And so there is like,

  • what is like one of the social media group website things

  • where you can check on things like Next-door Neighbor,

  • or Next Door or something like that?

  • - Yeah I think it's Next Door.

  • - Where they have a lot

  • of like kinda racist profiling of like,

  • you know Mexican guy in the neighborhood.

  • Or you know.

  • So she's a professor and a researcher,

  • and they reduced that racial profiling by 75%

  • by having people before they could register

  • a complaint or a fear,

  • check three boxes.

  • One of them is the definition of racial profiling.

  • And you have to check

  • that you have read the definition of that.

  • And that just slowed people down enough,

  • and it's like how do we slow people down

  • to recognize the dehumanization, you know like--

  • - So there is a Harvard implicit bias test

  • where you have to press the keys to identify

  • scary, harmful, whatever.

  • And the only instruction if I'm remembering correctly,

  • the only instruction is that you have to do it fast.

  • Because if you slow your brain down

  • you can interrupt the bias.

  • - That's right.

  • - But that's how things happen, they happen so quickly.

  • I see that person, I probably don't even see their face,

  • all I see is their skin color or how they're dressed.

  • - Some sort of marker.

  • - Whatever that is.

  • I'm gonna make my own decision and call the cops.

  • - Or pull the trigger.

  • - That's why representation--

  • - And that's why that marble class matters,

  • that if you're trying to disrupt all of those norms

  • to like offset all of

  • these stereotypes that you're getting.

  • - Accumulating.

  • - Yeah, that you're accumulating

  • that your subconscious is absorbing,

  • because that message is coming in from all of us

  • and we have to like,

  • we have to seek out alternative messaging.

  • - But we also need to fight for leaders.

  • Leaders of color.

  • I was just listening to Stacey Abrams talk about,

  • like you know, because people are like,

  • oh yeah, you should run for president,

  • and she's like no, I was focused on the governorship.

  • She's like, there's power in that,

  • and think about how many governors of color we have.

  • Like you need that, it can't just be the president,

  • it's got to be at all levels.

  • - And we've seen that.

  • - Yeah, exactly.

  • That didn't fix anything.

  • - Intervention has to be, yeah.

  • No, and yeah.

  • - There's a lot of work to do.

  • - There is a lot of work to do,

  • and I think it's,

  • I just think it's got to be micro

  • and macro at the same time,

  • it's got to be the promotion for the manager

  • that works at Starbucks and the governor

  • and the top leaders and it's gonna be,

  • and I hope you open your heart and come with us.

  • But if you don't that's okay too,

  • because we're going.

  • Does that make sense?

  • - We're not through, I agree.

  • - This is an invitation.

  • I'd like to come along the journey, that's great.

  • But you can also just sit on the sidelines

  • of history if that's what you choose to do.

  • - And we'll wave at you as we walked by.

  • - But we have to.

  • And I think people in fear are dangerous.

  • And I think for some reason, well not for some reason,

  • we've got nothing but that rhetoric

  • for the last three years,

  • that power is finite.

  • If I give you a piece

  • that means I'll have seven pieces left,

  • as opposed to what I think we all believe,

  • which its power is infinite

  • and the more you share it the more you grow it.

  • It's like empathy or compassion or anything,

  • it's just not finite.

  • - There's enough, there's enough.

  • - There's enough.

  • We are enough, and there's enough.

  • And I think my commitment is to really keep looking

  • and talking about the grief that happens,

  • I think especially for women

  • of color who read my book and say,

  • yes, I'm dying under this armor,

  • but it's not safe for me to take it off.

  • I resonate with everything you say,

  • but perfect allows me to keep putting food on the table.

  • And until we get more,

  • to be honest with you, not female leaders,

  • but women of color in leadership positions

  • and leader positions outside of DNI,

  • outside of HR.

  • - I mean.

  • - Yes we need them there too.

  • - I mean I love talking about diversity and inclusion,

  • don't get me wrong, that's my jam,

  • but we should not be relegated to that.

  • - COO, CFO, CEO.

  • It's got to be in places where the focus is just not people.

  • Because just like you mention,

  • it is the right thing for the bottom dollar,

  • for the consumer, for every piece of it.

  • And it's okay to have more than one woman of color

  • in your C suite, that's all I'm gonna say.

  • It won't blow up.

  • - It always will in all the right ways.

  • - And I think we all have work to do, myself included.

  • Everybody.

  • - What I feel like if black women have

  • to read all these books,

  • and watch these documentaries and understand history,

  • if we have to do all this work.

  • White people, I'm gonna need

  • for you not to take yourselves off the hook.

  • - Read the book, throw it across the room, get it.

  • - Do what you got to do.

  • - And reread it.

  • - I'm in for the long walk.

  • - Oh yes thank you, thank you Brené.

  • - Thanks for having me.

  • - We don't know how to adjust

  • the fact that this stuff is still in the air.

  • People tell the story

  • like Dr. King preached the I Have a Dream speech,

  • and then ascended into heaven.

  • - Especially an anti-racism work,

  • I say that black women are 100% experts regardless.

  • - Yes.

  • - I am deeply invested in building movements

  • where folks aren't shamed for not coming out of the womb,

  • understanding cis hetero patriarchal violence.

  • - Prison isn't addressing trauma,

  • it's not addressing violence.

  • Prison is a place of trauma and violence.

  • - Everything in the news is just like beating us down.

  • I want to see stories

  • about black women succeeding and thriving.

  • - Black folks in a white space.

  • - Listen, you find each other.

  • - You may not have shit in common,

  • but you're gonna be friends, right?

  • - I love all the warmup questions, I really.

  • - I was like, "Hell, we're here."

- Welcome to The Next Question, I'm Jenny.

Subtitles and vocabulary

Click the word to look it up Click the word to find further inforamtion about it