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  • So Alasdair, we're talking maps today,

  • and we're also talking inequality

  • which is a big word in the election manifestos this year.

  • But in fact, when we talk about mapping inequality

  • that's not a new thing.

  • It's been done before.

  • So who was the first to do it?

  • Well, the first person really to do this on a large scale

  • was Charles Booth in Victorian London.

  • And his study of life and labour of the people of London is

  • really the main one people look to as the first.

  • So people think of him almost as the first social scientist

  • because of it.

  • We've got one of his maps here, which

  • is looking at the area of Whitechapel in London.

  • And just looking at it, it looks like a really normal sort

  • of street map except there's colours everywhere.

  • What do the colours show us?

  • The colours indicate the social class of the individuals who

  • live in these different buildings.

  • So, for example, along Whitechapel Road,

  • we can see Charles Booth's category

  • as identifying these people as well-to-do, middle class.

  • Whereas, if you just turn off to a side street,

  • all of a sudden you see different categories.

  • Very poor or poor or even the lowest class on his map,

  • which he at the time dubbed "vicious, semi-criminal."

  • These category labels are fascinating because they

  • say a lot about attitudes towards the impoverished

  • at the time perhaps.

  • So, in Victorian London going to talk

  • about this cheek by jowl index that you've developed later.

  • But in Victorian London, according to Booth,

  • prosperity was always just a little turn away

  • from chronic want and chronic need.

  • Exactly.

  • That's what you see.

  • You don't have to go too far off the main thoroughfares

  • before you suddenly have these intense areas of poverty.

  • How did he collect this information?

  • Well, unlike today, where we'd probably just quickly download

  • the data and map it, he had to get out and about

  • and use up a lot of shoe leather, also

  • a team of researchers with essentially clipboards

  • and notebooks surveying most of inner London

  • effectively, speaking to residents, taking notes.

  • And obviously all this is all online now for us to use,

  • but very much a data-driven exercise,

  • but collected through hard work.

  • So actually given the inequality's

  • mentioned in all of these political manifestos

  • for the election, it's actually quite a timely thing

  • to have delivered this look at inequality

  • across the whole of England.

  • Yeah.

  • I mean, when we started this project about 18 months ago,

  • of course, we had no idea there would

  • be an election anytime soon.

  • But it has coincided with this, and obviously the manifestos

  • mention inequality.

  • So yeah, it's quite timely, we think.

  • So if we fast forward from the Victorian era

  • and look at the outcomes of your work

  • at the University of Sheffield, what is this map showing us?

  • This is a map of the whole of England broken down

  • into travel to work areas.

  • So each individual area, like London here,

  • is effectively a commuter zone.

  • So people travel within these to work,

  • and these boundaries contain local labour markets.

  • Another example would be up in Liverpool,

  • where you have Liverpool on The Wirral as one local labour

  • market, or Berwick, where the local labour market area goes

  • across into Scotland across the border.

  • So you deliberately didn't use things

  • like parliamentary constituencies

  • and local authority areas because they don't necessarily

  • reflect day-to-day human life in the way that these areas do.

  • Because if I pick any one of these areas.

  • So if I pick Hull here, this area

  • is defined like it is because most of the people who

  • live here work here.

  • That's right?

  • That's exactly right.

  • It's what we call self-contained.

  • It's a self-contained labour market area.

  • So that explains what the areas are.

  • What do the colours mean?

  • This particular measure of inequality

  • relates to how closely packed together

  • people of the same kind of socio-economic class are.

  • The darker colours indicate where people who are more

  • similar live closer together.

  • And the lighter colours is the opposite.

  • So in the lighter areas, that's where we're saying

  • there's a big contrast between the people who live within

  • those areas - if you like, it could be the haves

  • and the have-nots?

  • Yeah, exactly.

  • Why do we care about this?

  • I mean, why does this matter, do you think?

  • There is a number of reasons.

  • So it could be just to do with the provision of services.

  • Another good reason for caring about inequality

  • would be to do with the political fallout right

  • and how that feeds into the electoral process, which

  • we've probably seen in the last few years.

  • OK, does that mean the areas that are dark,

  • where there's relatively little inequality -

  • these darker patches here across the north, over in Cornwall

  • and the southwest over here in Lincolnshire

  • - are we saying that in those darker areas

  • that they're not problem areas?

  • Well, there is a couple of ways of looking at it.

  • One would be to say inequality here is not a problem.

  • But the other, and I think more plausible,

  • explanation would be that inequality is not necessarily

  • the issue but absolute poverty across the board.

  • So what we have is relatively equal but quite poor.

  • There's no inequality because everyone's poor.

  • That's probably not...

  • Yeah, it's probably not what we're aiming for.

  • ...what you're aiming for, OK.

  • So we were fascinated by this map when we first looked at it

  • because if we look at just the lightest coloured areas

  • on the map, that's the top 20 most unequal areas in England,

  • according to this data.

  • So if we base it on just the proximity of the haves

  • and the have-nots living cheek by jowl,

  • much in the way that we just looked at with the Charles

  • Booth map of Whitechapel, these areas

  • here are the top 20 for inequality in England.

  • So we have unsurprisingly, I suppose, London is here...

  • most of these areas are actually Midlands

  • and to the north of England, with one big exception

  • being in the south we have the Portsmouth travel

  • to work area here is showing up as highly unequal.

  • This particular measure of inequality

  • generally picks out places in the Midlands

  • and north of England, which your traditional centres

  • of manufacturing, your ex-industrial locations are at.

  • For example, if you look at somewhere

  • like Barrow-in-Furness travel to work area,

  • or you look at somewhere like Blackpool or even

  • Sheffield's travel to work area, or Hull,

  • these are areas of traditional industry, where worker housing

  • was packed very tightly together, much like in the way

  • it was in those Charles Booth maps.

  • So that's really interesting because, for me

  • - and I'll have to reveal a personal fact here

  • - I grew up in the Portsmouth area.

  • And one of the things when I was growing up

  • is that people always used to describe the Portsmouth

  • area as a northern city transplanted

  • to the south coast.

  • So it's fascinating to see it coming out here

  • at the national level.

  • Let's take a look - and because I'm biased

  • - we're going to have a look at this Portsmouth travel

  • to work area and see what's really going on there.

  • So what we've got here, first of all...

  • just to show you that we're zooming in... so we've got some

  • satellite imagery here of the wider Portsmouth area.

  • So we're zoomed quite in.

  • Even on this satellite image, we can see roads and so on.

  • But what we can do is if we take a layer...

  • effectively this is your map zoomed in...

  • we can see that actually this Portsmouth travel

  • to work area, which is this big yellow area here,

  • it actually extends quite a long way.

  • And in fact, it's a peculiar shape

  • because it's quite tall but quite narrow.

  • And I know that that's actually a good thing,

  • as far as the commuting patterns are concerned.

  • Because knowing this area, I know

  • that there is a motorway going up here,

  • and that this is actually a commuting corridor

  • and that there's not as much travel across.

  • So that validates the geography.

  • But what we're really interested in doing now is looking

  • at the neighbourhood level information that allowed you

  • to make this area bright yellow.

  • So let's bring in this neighbourhood level information

  • for the Portsmouth area.

  • And this is the first time that we really start to capture some

  • of the neighbourhood level gradients in income deprivation

  • that allowed you to decide which areas of the country were more

  • unequal than others.

  • Again, let's think about the colour.

  • The colour is now not showing us the inequality, is it?

  • The colour is now showing us the actual level of deprivation.

  • That's right.

  • So the individual areas are these 32,000 areas,

  • neighbourhood level, about 1,600 people or so.

  • That's these very small individual pockets of colour.

  • They're individual neighbourhoods.

  • They're individual neighbourhoods essentially.

  • And what we see here is a lighter colour.

  • So the lighter colours here are areas that score more highly

  • on the deprivation index.

  • And at the other end of the scale,

  • generally you'll find these in the suburban areas;

  • the darkest colours on the map, the least deprived area.

  • So they're really usually quite affluent neighbourhoods.

  • Going back to what you were saying

  • about the traditional patterns.

  • So this is Portsmouth city centre over here.

  • The idea that you've actually got high levels of deprivation

  • in the city centre, gradually getting a little more affluent

  • as you spread out into much more affluent rural areas.

  • That's a repeating pattern across the country.

  • Exactly.

  • That's generally what we see everywhere.

  • OK, one of the things that fascinated me knowing about

  • this area, though, is that in the Portsmouth travel to work

  • area you don't just have the city centre area deprived.

  • You've actually got an area called Paulsgrove up here,

  • which is also coming out as quite highly deprived

  • for income, but also this area up here.

  • Now, this is the area in the north, of Havant-,

  • the town of Havant, which is part of this commuting

  • corridor.

  • This is the Leigh Park Estate.

  • So there's two points here which are in the most deprived

  • 10 per cent in national terms, which is Leigh Park and then

  • a part of Leigh Park called Warren Park.

  • You have these multiple pockets of deprivation surrounded

  • by much more affluence.

  • And these areas are not far away from each other.

  • The thing that struck me when I looked at this data

  • for the first time was that this darkest colour here suggests

  • that this is the most affluent 10 per cent,

  • in nationwide terms, bordering areas that are in the most

  • deprived percentiles of the country.

  • That's the essence of your spatial inequality?

  • That's right.

  • So traditionally, you'd just expect

  • to see a geographical gradient, where you don't really

  • get these extremes next to each other.

  • There's a number of reasons why you might get that.

  • Sometimes it's brownfield land where new housing is being put,

  • and maybe that's more luxury housing, luxury flats.

  • And we've seen a lot of that over the last 20 years.

  • But occasionally what you get is a really steep social gradient,

  • and sometimes it's because of a road like you can see here.

  • Or it might be a river or a railway line,

  • something like that.

  • So there'll be some physical separation,

  • even though they might...

  • Usually.

  • ...be close to each other.

  • Now, that takes me again back to Booth because when Booth

  • carried out his two surveys 10 years apart,

  • one of the things that he said was that actually neighbourhood

  • renewal was one of the things that was helping to reinforce

  • isolation of the deprived, because there was a big railway

  • building boom in the period and a slum clearance programme.

  • And his contention was that building railway lines actually

  • helped to box people in.

  • We can still see signs of that.

  • The physical geography is different.

  • Exactly.

  • And if you go back maybe 50 years

  • before Charles Booth's map you have Benjamin Disraeli

  • talking about people living and being

  • dwellers in different zones.

  • And if you go back to antiquity, in Plato's Republic,

  • we have him talking about different quarters of cities,

  • some rich and some poor.

  • So these are not new themes, but what we see in the map

  • is we see these patterns repeated at the small scale

  • through time.

  • But this is the first time we've been

  • able to see this data using your atlas, if you like,

  • to identify the places to look at.

  • So one of the things about looking at the maps

  • like this, though, is that it looks like this area

  • is connected to this area and to this area.

  • But we can see kind of through the satellite imagery,

  • peeping behind that actually there

  • is nothing physical connecting those areas

  • because it looks like that's fields and country.

  • So one of the things that we can do here

  • is bring the road network in here.

  • And that helps us to really see what's going on.

  • Because going back to this deprived area here

  • of Leigh Park and the Warren here in Havant,

  • if you look at the road network, you

  • can actually see that this area here is pretty isolated.

  • Although it's very close in geographical terms,

  • as the crow flies, on three sides,

  • it looks like Warren Park here is isolated

  • from these more affluent areas.

  • So let's just take a little nip into here and see what we find.

  • What we're talking about, Leigh Park.

  • Leigh Park used to have a right reputation for roughness

  • and that.

  • It is a bit scruffy, but it is what it is.

  • But I mean, once upon a time, Park Parade,

  • as we used to call it, used to have the main road

  • going up the middle of it.

  • I can remember it.

  • There used to be a Woolies there.

  • Do you think there's still a sense

  • of community in Leigh Park?

  • Not as much as there used to be, no.

  • I don't know.

  • I really don't know.

  • I mean, look, these shutters...

  • dammed.

  • It's either no one's in there, or they

  • don't open it until halfway through the night.

  • Did you go to places like Emsworth, or...

  • No.

  • No?

  • OK.

  • No, because I've only got a bus to catch.

  • I can't wait for somebody to take me places.

  • All right.

  • Yeah, so you tend to stay in the local area for your day-to-day,

  • that sort of stuff?

  • Yeah.

  • OK.

  • Tell us about growing up in Leigh Park.

  • What was that like?

  • Well, I enjoyed it.

  • I've got three sisters, and we was all, we've all turned out

  • fine, I think.

  • So what role does the community centre play for you?

  • Yeah, it's brilliant.

  • We used to go to a youth group here.

  • And now we've obviously both got children.

  • We try to come at least once a week.

  • It's mostly cheap, and it's really likeable to us.

  • Does it feel like a community centre?

  • Yeah.

  • Do you feel like there's that sense of neighbourliness?

  • Yeah, it's lovely.

  • So do you know places like Rowlands Castle and Emsworth?

  • Do you go there?

  • Not really, no.

  • Do you meet many people from those areas?

  • Or do they tend to keep themselves to themselves?

  • Yeah, yeah.

  • If we go there, you feel a bit like, hmm, where are you from?

  • Leigh Park... and it sort of makes you feel a bit awful.

  • But yeah, no, it's nice to have something here for us.

  • You know, you have a motorway here, fields and a golf

  • course here, I think.

  • And you can see that it's connected but only to itself.

  • I mean, I know that that was a post wolrd war two housing

  • estate.

  • Is that a typical pattern from that era of...

  • We do see a lot of that, so good examples of this

  • all across the country.

  • Glasgow's always used as an example.

  • It's a good way of understanding that,

  • although people have lives in theory in the same geographical

  • spaces, they're often living completely different lives,

  • disconnected from neighbourhoods that are literally right next

  • door.

  • So this is why we can call this the cheek by jowl index

  • because they're co-located almost but living very

  • different socio-economic...

  • Exactly.

  • ...lives.

  • And the other thing is, particularly

  • with the Leigh Park area, is just how surrounded

  • it is by affluence.

  • I mean, what you were saying earlier about a gradient,

  • that just doesn't exist in any direction.

  • It's a steep cliff face, if you like,

  • of deprivation, which is fascinating.

  • What would Charles Booth make of this stuff today, do you think?

  • I think he'd be quite surprised at the lack of connections

  • between these places because at least in his London

  • maps everywhere was very well-connected.

  • Here, not so much, and I think he'd probably

  • question the aims and objectives of 1960s planners perhaps.

  • The locals call this area the Warren

  • because of this network of streets

  • that are inward looking.

  • But it scores very poorly on connectedness

  • to everywhere else.

  • Excuse me?

  • We're doing a little bit of filming about Leigh Park.

  • I wonder if we could have a word or two with you

  • about it, if we parked up the car and had a quick chat.

  • Yeah.

  • Is that all right?

  • So what brought you to Leigh Park in the first place?

  • I got married.

  • I was living in Selsey at the time.

  • Oh, OK.

  • And I married a Leigh Park girl.

  • So you've stayed on the estate ever since?

  • Yes.

  • Do you think that because it is geographically

  • so separate from the rest of Havant,

  • that that actually helps with the community spirit,

  • do you think?

  • Yes, I think so.

  • Yes.

  • We're a little bit isolated from Havant,

  • but I've never seen much trouble up here in 30 years.

  • Do you feel, compared to when you were in Selsey,

  • that people are more likely to stay in Leigh Park in the sense

  • that it is that community space that people don't...

  • Yeah, I think so.

  • Yes.

  • Not many people know each other in Selsey.

  • Where you would get to know people...

  • you get to know people in here.

  • So we're saying that actually, it's not

  • like it's even stayed the same.

  • In some cases, because of post world war two planning,

  • some of these areas are actually even worse than they were back

  • in Booth's day.

  • The old first law of geography tells us

  • that everywhere is connected to everywhere else.

  • And in theory, near places should be more connected.

  • But what you see sometimes is that's not the case.

  • Near places are sometimes very disconnected and very much not

  • like each other.

  • On the basis that it's unlikely that anyone from one of these

  • more affluent areas nearby is going to accidentally wander

  • through the deprived areas because you have to make

  • the effort to get there, and there is not a natural flow...

  • No, exactly.

  • ...across those areas.

  • One of the things I felt while we

  • were doing this whole exercise and looking at these maps

  • is just what Booth would have made

  • of our cartography, the fact that we are

  • letting these areas run out.

  • If I take the road network off, these areas,

  • they do run into each other.

  • They're kind of space-filling, aren't they?

  • Yeah.

  • Although it looks like this is one big area full of people,

  • actually it's a rural area, and there's not much going on here.

  • So one of the things that we wanted to do in the spirit

  • of Booth was that with this sort of mapping we're showing that

  • everywhere is filled with colour,

  • and that's not really that representative of what

  • we're showing.

  • No, and one of the things, with these neighbourhood areas that

  • we're using, there are about 32,000 of them,

  • and they're designed so that each one should have a roughly

  • similar amount of people.

  • But in less dense areas like here,

  • where population density is very low,

  • these areas are very, very big.

  • But of course, not many people actually

  • live in the whole area.

  • So one of the things that we did then

  • was to cut through this map with a street and road network that

  • would allow us to get something that looks a lot more

  • like the maps that Booth was making.

  • So let's take those away and replace it

  • with a view of that cut road network.

  • And so here we go.

  • Now I feel a bit more comfortable because it's what

  • Booth would recognise as a map that's very similar to his own.

  • So we've retained the colours.

  • So the light colours are still the most deprived areas.

  • There's the Leigh Park Estate and the Warren.

  • Here's the city centre of Portsmouth.

  • This is the more affluent areas.

  • Emsworth is here.

  • We're no longer in the Warren Park Estate.

  • We're clearly somewhere more affluent.

  • Let's see what we can find.

  • Does it surprise you when I said that this area came out

  • very high for inequality relative to the rest

  • of the country?

  • That's not been my experience, no.

  • Have you been in Emsworth for a long time?

  • 15 years.

  • 15 years?

  • 15, 16 years.

  • Did you come to it from somewhere close by or from...

  • From Bognor Regis.

  • Do you know any of the areas that I just mentioned...

  • Rowlands Castle, Havant, Leigh Park?

  • Do any of those areas...

  • Yeah.

  • What's your impressions of those areas?

  • Rowlands Castle, pretty nice, pretty steepy.

  • Leigh Park, it's had it's day as it is.

  • Far too big...

  • it was the largest in Europe at the time it was built, I think.

  • Havant, that's fine, good shopping centre in there,

  • good area.

  • The biggest effect is the amount of building

  • that's going on at the present moment and the stretching

  • of our services.

  • I live in the square anyway.

  • You live in the square, and you've been in Emsworth

  • since you were three, you say?

  • Three.

  • OK, so how has Emsworth changed during that time?

  • Hugely.

  • Across the other side of the Bell Pond,

  • there are houses there which 50 years ago were selling

  • for about £35,000 Now they're a half million.

  • Wow.

  • So it's a big, big change in the housing situation,

  • which doesn't help people who have just moved into Emsworth.

  • Younger people can't really find affordable housing,

  • like a lot of places.

  • But Emsworth used to be on the par with Havant

  • in terms of property prices.

  • It's not bad for us that live here.

  • But on the other hand, it's not very good for younger people.

  • So given that change actually, that you've just

  • said between Havant and Emsworth on the prices,

  • does it surprise you when I have mentioned to somebody

  • else just a minute ago, that this area has been identified

  • as one of the most economically unequal areas in the country,

  • if you take the whole Portsmouth region?

  • That would surprise me because I think

  • property prices vary on a much smaller basis

  • than they did 25, 30 years ago.

  • Leigh Park, you may or may not know that Leigh Park was built

  • after the second world war, when all the houses in Portsmouth

  • were...

  • not all of them... were bombed.

  • So the council bought Leigh Park, which is a big country

  • house, and they built, it was the biggest council

  • estate in the whole of the UK at one stage.

  • We picked up a lot of the very similar thoughts,

  • actually, in terms of strength of sentiment

  • about local community.

  • But for the first time, I think, we also

  • picked up some really interesting things

  • about the way that some places close to each other

  • can have knock-on effects of each other.

  • So the discussion in there about how property prices have

  • ballooned here in Emsworth at the expense of Havant,

  • and in fact, the interplay between Portsmouth

  • and Leigh Park with Havant being bypassed,

  • these ideas that although these are separate places,

  • they are economically interlinked,

  • and what happens in one place can cascade into another,

  • it's very, very interesting.

  • Having a map like this, the previous map we had

  • is something we would a choropleth map,

  • whereas here it just shows you where the buildings are.

  • It shows you where people live, effectively,

  • in a way that allows us to unpick the urban fabric

  • and get a better understanding of the potential

  • for interaction but also where the break points are,

  • where you can see, particularly here,

  • a slight geographical separation between areas that

  • are very close together but possibly not in terms

  • of their social interactions.

  • For me, finally, knowing this area,

  • you really can start to see this Leigh Park

  • area for the relatively isolated area that it is.

  • And that they're actually, although they

  • are very close to each other, there

  • are these gaps appearing across major segments

  • right across the whole commuting area.

  • Suddenly starting to see much more subtle decisions which,

  • like you say, are long-term consequences

  • of urban planning decisions.

  • The other thing this shows for me is how pioneering Charles

  • Booth was in his representation of poverty

  • and the urban fabric.

  • These kind of things are very difficult to do

  • well, to do simply, and to tell the story of places.

  • And I think this does a much better job

  • than the previous map in doing that.

  • Where do you hope that this new Booth map, if we can

  • call it that, is going to go.

  • Yeah, it's really, for us, about providing better spatial

  • intelligence.

  • This is what people maybe know intuitively from their own

  • neighbourhoods, but do they understand it at a national

  • level?

  • So what we wanted to do is provide a national map

  • at a local level that would allow policymakers,

  • politicians, members of the public

  • - anyone who's interested in this kind of thing

  • - to understand local inequalities.

  • When I talked to people about what

  • we've been looking at with this map, a lot of people

  • are saying exactly this.

  • They said, well, of course, there

  • are rich areas and poor areas within cities.

  • Everyone knows them.

  • But I think the thing that surprised me with this was that

  • the colours we're using here are not just for the local area.

  • These areas place us in the national rankings.

  • So when we say the difference between a bright yellow

  • and a black colour here, that's the full spectrum

  • of the national range in income deprivation.

  • So let's have a look.

  • Let's zoom back out again and look at what all of those

  • neighbourhoods look like.

  • And so here it is.

  • This is our national view of localised deprivation patterns.

  • So just to clarify with you, Alasdair,

  • this is all of those 32,000 areas that you were talking

  • about earlier, all of those neighbourhoods.

  • This is all 32,000 on one map?

  • Yeah.

  • What sort of patterns are we seeing

  • when we zoom this out to the national level?

  • The highest areas of deprivation are

  • to be found - so in the West Midlands or Merseyside or West

  • Yorkshire or the northeast of England or Humberside.

  • But one of the things people don't often

  • pay so much attention to is a kind

  • of string of deprived seaside locations.

  • And it might not be entire towns,

  • sometimes it's just little pockets.

  • So we have this in Lincolnshire.

  • Or we may have that in Essex.

  • Or we may have that on the south coast of Kent.

  • So some of those aren't immediately obvious.

  • But again, we have that all over.

  • Now, we do say, there's rich and poor everywhere,

  • but they're disproportionately clustered in those places

  • and also in London.

  • And actually, one of the other things that I think I spotted

  • when we first loaded this up was that those areas that we were

  • talking about right at the start that don't have much

  • inequality, you can almost see them on here

  • because of the more consistent colour patterns.

  • The southwestern, the Cornwall area,

  • there's much less of this alternating bright and dark

  • colour.

  • It's more uniformly purple, middling...

  • Yeah, that's right.

  • ...in terms of deprivation.

  • And finally, I think looking at it in these terms,

  • you've finally got a map that really

  • would take the attention of Charles Booth

  • because this is the sort of map he wasn't able

  • to produce, simply because of the restrictions

  • that he was working with back in the Victorian time.

  • Great.

  • Thank you very much.

So Alasdair, we're talking maps today,

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