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  • Before we get into the book,

  • we just watched a Democratic debate, um...

  • which has gotten a lot more exciting

  • than it has been in the past few debates.

  • You've been involved in Democratic politics,

  • specifically, for a very long time.

  • How do you think the Democratic race is going?

  • Uh, well, I think-- here's how I look at it.

  • What's interesting-- just one observation--

  • is that viewership of the debates is up,

  • but participation in the primaries is not.

  • It's not beating 2008, when we had record turnouts.

  • So that... concerns me.

  • In 2018, 2019, we had record energy.

  • And right now, uh, the debates are not producing

  • the type of energy you want to see.

  • So I have a small flashing yellow light saying:

  • a little concern on that.

  • It can always flip,

  • but right now I'm a little concerned about that.

  • And also, the other thing is that I have a new respect

  • for my family Thanksgiving dinner--

  • it looks a lot calmer compared to this.

  • -(laughter) -It does seem like it has become a lot more testy.

  • You know, Bloomberg stepping into the race

  • might have been a catalyst, but it feels like

  • as the field narrows, people are gonna fighting...

  • -The stakes are higher. -Yeah.

  • You were in the D-triple-C.

  • You have been part of helping Democrats win major elections.

  • You know, helping Bill Clinton become president,

  • working with Barack Obama as his chief of staff.

  • Here's a question that maybe you

  • would be mostly uniquely positioned to answer.

  • We have two mayors on that stage...

  • Three.

  • Three... previous mayors, with Bernie Sanders, yes.

  • But two mayors, you know, who just stepped out of being mayor,

  • saying that they want to run the country as president.

  • Yeah.

  • Does a mayor have the prerequisite experience

  • to run a country?

  • You've worked with a president, and you've been mayor.

  • How much of it gives you the experience you need?

  • Well, first of all, a lot.

  • Um, I... you know, the number one job

  • before being for president was governor.

  • All four governors

  • have been thrown off the island, basically,

  • and you're now left with mayors.

  • In England, the mayor of London

  • has just become the prime minister.

  • -Right. -And the experiences of dealing with...

  • When you think about where you live, where you work,

  • how you get to work, the things around your neighborhood,

  • from libraries to parks, those are all services

  • local governments deal with.

  • When you look at the major issues on climate change,

  • cities are leading.

  • When you look at the major cities-- Chicago,

  • we made community college free for the students

  • of the city of Chicago who got a B average.

  • We made pre-K universal for all our four-year-olds.

  • So the things that are major

  • in the sense of inclusive economic growth,

  • climate change, immigration policy,

  • mayors are taking that lead.

  • And the other piece of this, two other pieces of this--

  • the second piece is you actually fail in the job,

  • and you learn, then, from that experience.

  • And legislating is not really about failure.

  • Give one-- I used to say to President Clinton:

  • If we knew in the first year of the first term

  • what we knew by the first...

  • by the, uh, first year of the second term,

  • -we'd be geniuses. -Right.

  • And if you go back in history-- think about President Kennedy.

  • He had the Bay of Pigs. A mess.

  • Realized the Joint Chiefs

  • didn't know what they were talking about,

  • took a study of it,

  • and when it came to the Cuban Missile Crisis,

  • -Mm-hmm. -he knew how to handle it.

  • And mayors... stumble all the time.

  • And then the other piece of that--

  • and then pick themselves up, learn from it

  • and apply it to the future. And then the third piece...

  • But wait, let me ask you this before you go to that, though.

  • So if-if that's the case, if mayors are running the world,

  • then why is everyone running to be president?

  • Well, because it still has... the challenge you take on--

  • not everybody's... not every mayor's running to be president.

  • But I think the real thing is of what is happening,

  • -is you have a global economy, -Mm-hmm.

  • but all politics is local.

  • And 75% of the American people

  • have confidence in their local government,

  • and that number's in the mid-20s for national government.

  • Uh, and I do also think one other thing.

  • We're falling... we're really ripping apart.

  • In the city of Chicago-- this is true in New York,

  • it's true in L.A., it's true in a lot of cities of all sizes--

  • we have 145 languages spoken in our city.

  • Many different faiths, cultures, backgrounds.

  • But the aspiration of a parent,

  • regardless of where they came from,

  • -Right. -is the same for their child.

  • And mayors form a community and a sense of belonging.

  • And in a period of time of alienation and distance,

  • that sense of belonging gives you something

  • that is really an asset going forward,

  • where your diversity really can become a strength

  • rather than a liability.

  • So, let me ask you this, then, about the book.

  • Because I understand what you're saying about,

  • you know, being a mayor who's bringing people together.

  • In the book, you talk about the journey

  • that you've been on as a mayor.

  • You talk about the challenges that you face,

  • you know, on a day-to-day level

  • working for your constituents directly.

  • Is there something that makes being a mayor unique

  • in how you're dealing with people

  • versus just larger issues?

  • Yeah, I mean, you're, you know, there's a part of the book

  • where I talk about, I mean, you celebrate together,

  • -you have pain together, -Mm-hmm.

  • you have, uh, joy... moments of joy,

  • and then you work through a lot of issues.

  • You are in touch with the people,

  • and in many ways, I mean, people give you--

  • especially in Chicago-- there's thumbs-up,

  • and there's another digit they can also tell you,

  • and that happens all the time.

  • Uh, and I think that happens in the...

  • That was a cleaned-up version for me.

  • -I really, I'm proud of myself. -Right.

  • That's very unusual for me.

  • Uh, so the fact is, that's what happens.

  • And... but also, you can be there when--

  • and I will say this-- when I created

  • the Chicago Star Scholarship-- you got a B average,

  • we make community college, transportation, books free--

  • I saw the relief on parents' face,

  • that they didn't have to pick

  • which child got a chance to go to college.

  • They didn't have to take a second mortgage on their home

  • to give their child a chance at the American dream.

  • And the relief of the sense that they could be a good parent

  • and see what they could never get for themselves,

  • but for their children, that can only happen at a local level.

  • Now, I would love to have had a federal partner,

  • but I had to make sure every chance...

  • every child had a chance at the future.

  • And you do talk about that, and you have been given

  • a lot of credit for what you've done

  • in the education space in Chicago.

  • At the same time, you've taken a lot of fire,

  • -you know, for... -In education.

  • Right, in education as well, but you've taken a lot of fire

  • for closing down schools

  • that were predominantly black or Latino.

  • People have said, "You know, Mayor,

  • "why did you close down those schools

  • in areas where people needed it the most?"

  • -You know how important it is -Right.

  • to have black and brown kids in school, learning, growing.

  • You closed those schools down,

  • because you said they were underperforming.

  • A lot of the teachers went on strike,

  • and they said you weren't catering to their needs.

  • Where do you think you could have done better,

  • or what do you think you could have done differently?

  • So, the first part is, when I ran in 2011,

  • Chicago had the shortest school day and the shortest school year

  • in the United States of America.

  • I made a pledge to get that done.

  • That our children were not gonna be cheated

  • three years of education compared to a child in Houston.

  • Now, I could have said, "Hey," when I got elected,

  • "this is really hard," and then people would be angry

  • -I gave up on a pledge. -Mm-hmm.

  • I made that pledge, and I wanted to see it through.

  • It led to a seven-day strike, but in the end of the day,

  • our graduation rate went from 56% to nearly 80%

  • Our reading scores and math scores

  • for all kids of all backgrounds rose

  • and sometimes, in many ways, set national standards.

  • So, being a mayor, you're gonna...

  • If all you want to be loved, don't run for that job.

  • -Right. -If you want to make a decision

  • where the decisions you make

  • and you put your thumb on the scale

  • and the difference between a 56% graduation rate

  • and an 80% graduation rate is kids can believe in themselves

  • and then have a chance at a future.

  • -Did you... -And that's what public life is about.

  • Right. But do you ever... do you ever wonder

  • why, you know, people in Chicago...

  • Not all of them. I cannot speak for all of them.

  • You know more than them, obviously.

  • But-but in Chicago, there was... there was a term

  • that some people used for you where they would say,

  • "Rahm was an amazing mayor for the one percent."

  • -Yeah. -You know, and you knew that yourself.

  • You've even spoken about that.

  • Where do you think that came from?

  • Well, because we-we did a lot of things,

  • and let me say this.

  • We never gave a subsidy to any of the the sports teams.

  • We expanded the minimum wage.

  • -We created universal, full-day pre-K. -Mm-hmm.

  • We also eliminated all the tax subsidies

  • that governments were getting. Companies were getting, rather.

  • -Right. -And, so, I can understand the charge,

  • but I also know the record, and I know the difference

  • in Chicago public schools where when you graduate high school

  • and go to community college,

  • there's nobody in the one percent getting that.

  • -I get the politics of it. -Right.

  • But I also know when you made a major dent in the food deserts

  • where there were no grocery stores

  • within, uh, five mile of a neighborhood

  • in a community on the South Side or the West Side,

  • that was not just a job,

  • and that was not just a grocery store.

  • That was also the respect of that community.

  • -That comes with politics, and I get that. -Right.

  • Let me... let me ask you about an interesting trend

  • and dilemma that America faces.

  • On the stage tonight, we had two...

  • As you said, three former mayors with Bernie Sanders,

  • -but two who say mayor was their last public office job. -Yeah.

  • -Mm-hmm. -And those two are also the two

  • that are taking the most flak for their relationships

  • with the black communities that they served

  • and the police and how they treated them.

  • You yourself are a mayor who's came under fire

  • for the way your police treated

  • the black community in your city.

  • You know, the Laquan McDonald case was one

  • where people said you could have done a better job

  • in releasing the video.

  • You could have done a better job

  • of communicating with the community,

  • and it felt like you were protecting the police.

  • Is it the case in America

  • where mayors seem to be protecting

  • the police more than their constituents?

  • No. Well, the other thing I would say

  • is you saw that Amy Klobuchar

  • had a, uh, background as a prosecutor.

  • She's also come under fire.

  • So if you're involved in that in one aspect,

  • you're gonna get hit on that.

  • And every mayor as well as in the prosecutors

  • are making efforts to get both good public safety,

  • which is the number one priority for... as your responsibility,

  • as well as do it in a way that is good policing.

  • You work at it every day.

  • There's not just a point you hit at it.

  • And the fact is,

  • whether it's Mike Bloomberg or Mayor Pete,

  • Amy Klobuchar, others who also are getting criticized...

  • Joe Biden for his support of Violence Against Women

  • but also the '94 Crime Act.

  • People are now coming under attack for that,

  • and people are looking at it different.

  • And then the question is how do you apply those efforts

  • going forward to find the basis of community policing?

  • -And in a big city... -So, if you're looking back,

  • -I would... I'd be interested to know. -Yeah.

  • Because I-I agree with you. In life, you look back,

  • and you go like, "Man, I could have done something different.

  • I wish I could have changed that."

  • You do talk about that in the book.

  • You talk about how you wish you could have changed

  • some of the-the ways you treated the policing issues

  • -or how you would have dealt with them. -Yeah.

  • I-I have always been fascinated by this when I talk to mayors

  • -or read books of mayors once they've left office. -Mm-hmm.

  • Is it the case that as mayors,

  • there's a part of you that is afraid

  • to go up against your police unions

  • because of how much power they hold in reelecting you?

  • Or-or is it really just a symbiotic relationship

  • where the mayor goes, "I'm with the police no matter what"?

  • No. A-Actually, no. I think there's...

  • I don't want to speak for all the mayors,

  • but I would say this.

  • Making a major change in both the laws and the culture

  • while also executing on public safety...

  • Both... Doing both of those simultaneously,

  • not one at the expense of the other,

  • takes a tremendous amount of leadership.

  • So, prior to, uh, everything happening

  • in Chicago in 2016, I...

  • The first city ever to make a voluntary agreement

  • with the ACLU to check policing, whether it was done right.

  • We did the Safer Commission.

  • And we also did the first ever...

  • Only ever city to do reparations

  • for prior acts of police department

  • 20 years prior to my tenure.

  • No city's ever done that.

  • I thought we had addressed it.

  • The problem and the d-depth of distrust

  • was much deeper than I accepted and understood.

  • And while we were fighting crime every day,

  • visiting fa...

  • a parent who's in the hospital alone,

  • seeing the depth of what happened

  • and being isolated because you as a parent

  • could not protect your child, what happened on the streets,

  • that happens.

  • And then at the same time,

  • you're trying to make changes to the police department.

  • You're trying to do both of those.

  • And so it doesn't... What you understand

  • is that the problem is a lot deeper

  • than people understood and appreciated.

  • And the fact is you have to make changes

  • because policing needed some of the insurance,

  • oversight and regulations that have not kept up

  • with community policing

  • and make it true community policing.

  • I have one final question for you before we let you go.

  • I could talk to you forever about the book and your job,

  • but you did it...

  • From the few things you've said

  • not just in the interview but in the book,

  • you've said it's not easy. It's a thankless job.

  • Everyone's gonna hate you at the end of it.

  • You're gonna do your best,

  • and you're gonna work your hardest.

  • -Knowing what you know now... -It's not like a c...

  • -It's not like a comedy show. -Yes.

  • Knowing what you know now...

  • Or it could be like a comedy show.

  • Knowing what you know now, would you do it again?

  • Oh, abso... Let me say this.

  • I've had the greatest public life.

  • working for senior advisor, President Clinton,

  • Congress, chief of staff for President Obama, mayor.

  • Mayor over here. All those three together.

  • Mayor's far better.

  • The highs are unbelievable. The lows are unbelievable.

  • But as mayor of city of Chicago,

  • I now know that children at the age of four,

  • not at the age of six, get an education.

  • We added four years to a child's education.

  • You can't do anywhere,

  • and you know the trajectory of their lives

  • -because you did that. -Mm-hmm.

  • And you were willing to spend your political capital

  • and your popularity

  • to make a difference in a child's life.

  • In a former life, I was gonna become

  • an early childhood educator.

  • Not that I would recommend you give your kids

  • time with me, okay, in that effort.

  • But having done... known that,

  • then knowing that you can make and take on a battle

  • and change a person's life and the trajectory...

  • You know, there's a saying in Rabbi, uh, Hillel.

  • "Who are you if not for yourself?

  • "What are you if you're only for yourself?

  • If not now, then when?"

  • My late father said that to me on my bar mitzvah.

  • And he says, "Your responsibility

  • "now that you become a Jew and an adult

  • "is to know that you can make a difference

  • in somebody else's life."

  • That is the most rewarding thing you can do in public life,

  • is give somebody else a chance of having a better life.

  • -I loved it. -Thank you so much for being on the show.

  • The Nation City is available now.

  • Rahm Emanuel, everybody.

Before we get into the book,

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