Placeholder Image

Subtitles section Play video

  • [Applause]

  • -That's a pretty nice reception.

  • - Nice place you have here.

  • [Laughter]

  • - Good afternoon everybody.

  • My name is Caroline Baum and I'm delighted to be here with

  • you today for what I think is going to be a very

  • inspirational experience.

  • Um, Elizabeth, you- if you'd been here yesterday,

  • I suppose we would have had to call this talk

  • "Heat, Pray Love."

  • Youů poor Elizabeth was driving back from the, um,

  • south coast yesterday and spent most of yesterday in a

  • car, um, so, she deserves a medal, I think, for being

  • here today.

  • Um, most of you will have been asked when you booked

  • your tickets whether you would like to ask a question

  • today, and so I'll be incorporating some of those

  • questions into our conversation.

  • And, I hope, that those of you that don't get your

  • question asked will still get some of the answers that

  • you're seeking from the conversation that we're about

  • to have.

  • And, at the end of this session, Elizabeth will be,

  • um, in the foyer and looks forward to saying hello to you.

  • And, there will be some pre-signed books, um, her new

  • book, which is her great-grandmother's cookbook,

  • um, which will be available for sale.

  • So, you will get a chance to say hello then.

  • Um, you know you've made it when your bestselling book is

  • satirised by Barry Humphries,

  • [laughter]

  • not to mention The Simpsons and also our own local

  • comedienne Judith Lucy who wrote a book called Drink,

  • Smoke Pass Out in your honour.

  • [Laughter]

  • - I saw it in a book store.

  • I have to say I think that's one of the best ones I've

  • seen yet.

  • - Yeah, it's not bad. - Very nice.

  • - Umů - I approve.

  • - I thought that, given that the talk today is supposed to

  • be about life after Eat, Pray, Love that, maybe it

  • would be useful for us to go back to before Eat, Pray, Love

  • in order that we can kind of understand the

  • trajectory that you've been on a little better.

  • Um, and I guess I wanted to start by asking you what your

  • definition of success was before this tsunami kind of

  • hit you.

  • So, when you were growing up on your father's Christmas

  • tree farm with two goats and honey bees and a television

  • that didn't work very well, what was your dream and what

  • was your idea of how to go about that?

  • - Um, I always say that I'm very lucky because I've only

  • ever wanted to do one thing with my life and I've only

  • ever been good at one thing.

  • And it's, I think it's rare that you get both of those

  • pieces, right?

  • Um, I, I don'tů I'm not interested in anything but

  • writing and I'm not good at anything but writing so it

  • makes your path extremely clear.

  • You know?

  • I have friends who are multi-talented and they're

  • cursed by it.

  • And I'm notů I do think of it as a curse.

  • Um, they're pulled in, in many different directions.

  • That's never been a problem for me, um, and so it's been

  • pretty simple trajectory.

  • There's been so much other stuff in my life that I've

  • made messy and complicated but, for some reason, the

  • writing path has been straight and narrow, um, from

  • about the age of nine on, um, maybe even earlier.

  • And, the idea was to just, um, write as much as I could.

  • Start, I started sending short stories out for

  • publication when I was about 18.

  • Um, I collected rejection notes for six years.

  • Um, that was okay.

  • My goal was to get published before I was dead.

  • And people

  • [laughter],

  • people in my family live a

  • really long time.

  • So, I thought:

  • "I got a long arc here."

  • And, it's not like, you know, it's not like being a dancer

  • where, if you haven't done it by the time you're 22,

  • you know?

  • Um, I had, I knew that, that you only mellow more into

  • your work as a writer.

  • So, I wouldů took the long view.

  • And, um, and, and, really honestly, from the beginning,

  • my only goal was that I, someday, wanted to have

  • something published somewhere.

  • - I'm interested in this, because I know that in your

  • 20s you left Connecticut, and you went off to Wyoming, and

  • you became a cowgirl.

  • And you, I think, cooked on a ranch, and you did various

  • kind of very physical, very masculineů

  • -Yeah. -ůvery rusticated things.

  • And, um, I wondered whether, in fact, you were on a kind

  • of personal quest there?

  • That you could talk a little bit about exploring that

  • masculine world at, because you were a tomboy weren't you?

  • - No. That's theů

  • - I thought you were? -No, look!!

  • Um, no I wasn't and I'm not.

  • And, um, and, in fact, I was on a quest to make a man out

  • of myself.

  • I think that's really what I was trying to do.

  • Um, I come from very tough people and I'm not a tough person.

  • And I've always felt that it was a liability.

  • Um, I, my mother's tough, my dad's tough, my sister'sů macho.

  • I mean, there are, like, people, my, my whole Gilbert

  • side of the family.

  • My uncle refers to them all as oxen, you know?

  • Um, the Olsen side of the family are all Swedish

  • immigrants, so they're like lazy and, no I'm just

  • kidding, they're not at all.

  • They're just, and I always felt like weak, you know?

  • I always felt like I was the weakest link in, in every

  • family gathering.

  • I was a cry baby, and a sensitive, and emotional and,

  • um, and I wasn't a pretty kid but I wanted to be, and, um,

  • and, and somehow I just wanted to overcome that sense

  • of, um, helplessness.

  • And, I think that's what drew me to, to the west and to

  • ranching, which I wasn't very good at.

  • [Laughter]

  • But I made friends, you know?

  • - Well, and you, you discovered people who were

  • incredibly competent and who lived by a very different set

  • of values.

  • And, and you wrote about those people very memorably.

  • And, that's why I was sort of leading you, hoping that you

  • were going to talk about, um, Eustace Conwayů

  • -Mm. - because he is such a, an

  • extraordinary character and I was just wondering, for

  • people who haven't read your books from before Eat Pray Love,

  • whether you could talk a little bit about what you

  • learnt from encountering someone like Eustace Conway

  • in terms of values.

  • - Um, Eustace Conway, ah, for those of you who haven't read

  • it, is, is a guy who I profiled in a book called The

  • Last American Man.

  • Um, he was one of the most fascinating people I'd ever met.

  • I did a magazine article about him for GQ.

  • He was the brother of a cowboy who I met on the ranch

  • in Wyoming and, even among that set, where people were

  • pretty macho and pretty tough, they were all like:

  • "And then there's Eustace."

  • You know, he was like, sort of at the Navy Seal level of,

  • um, outdoorsmen.

  • And he had left his family's suburban home when he was 17,

  • moved into the woods of North Carolina, and has been living

  • there ever since.

  • He's a utopian, he's a visionary, he's, um, he's a tyrant.

  • Um, he's a very complicated, difficult person, who I spent

  • probably four years of my life with, um, writing this

  • book about him.

  • And, um, came away, ah, came away with a very different

  • idea of our heroes.

  • I mean, I think I started the book with a real sense of

  • hero worship and came awayů um, there's a line that

  • Ursula Le Guin says, that she says, um:

  • "The other side of heroism is very sad;

  • women and servants know this."

  • Um, and when I was closer to his life, and you saw the

  • sort of, the sadness of, of his, um, ferociousness, um,

  • and the casualties of the people who admired him, and

  • followed him into the woods and, and just the

  • complications of being so grandiose.

  • Um, it, it tempered me for hero worship in the future.

  • - Because it's interesting, in the book you

  • de-romanticized the idea of a man who lives in the woods.

  • Because you say that, when people in cities talk about

  • the woods, they get this sort of nostalgic look and they go:

  • "Oh, the woods, the woods."

  • And Eustace's view of life in the woods is harsh and brutal.

  • -Yeah. -But then, you tell this

  • story about seeing him talking about his life to a

  • group of school children and that crystallises something

  • for you about authenticity.

  • So, when you saw Eustace Conway talking with these

  • children, you saw authenticity that you wanted

  • didn't you?

  • - Well, he, he's incredibly compelling, um, and, and very real.

  • Um, and his values are earnest.

  • Um, I don't think you can be a fundamentalist of any

  • stripe if you don't have earnest values.

  • Ah, he, he believes, quite rightly, that we are driving

  • this car off a cliff environmentally, um, on the

  • planet earth and that America is leading that car chase

  • over the edge of the precipice.

  • He wants to transform the way we think about resources.

  • He wants to transform the way that we think about nature.

  • Um, and he has this kind of messianic ability, especially

  • with young people.

  • They're awestruck by him.

  • Um, and it's beautiful to watch.

  • And, whenever you see him in action like that, it's

  • incredibly moving, and it's incredibly stirring.

  • And it's incredibly unrealistic.

  • And it's incredibly un-pragmatic.

  • And, it comes with, um, a whole other sort of darkness

  • as well, um, that, that I needed to get away from after

  • a while.

  • - 'cause I was going to ask you whether you think you're

  • very susceptible to charismatic leader figures?

  • Are youů

  • - I'm susceptible to everything

  • [laughter]

  • - But are youů - But, yeah?

  • are you a follower? - Oh, hell yeah.

  • What, what do you have? What are you selling?

  • I'm buying it.

  • What do you believe in?

  • I believe it.

  • You know? What's the fad?

  • I'm drinking acai juice right now, and pomegranate.

  • Like whatever!

  • I'm, I'm the permeable membrane, you know?

  • I'm a, I'm a Cancer.

  • Um, I, I just believe. I'm very gullible.

  • Um, it's why I think it's funny that I was a journalistů

  • -Mm. - Um, because I think it, it

  • doesn't really make for great journalism

  • [laughter].

  • Um, I believe anything people tell me about themselves and

  • then I report it, you know?

  • Um, [laughter]

  • like people, you know, people would be like:

  • "I'm the best six string guitar player the east coast

  • of the United States has ever produced"

  • and I'll be:

  • "This guy is the best sixů"

  • You know?

  • I fact checked it because I asked him and he told me

  • [laughter].

  • Um, you know, and there's a, you know, that's kind of just

  • how I am, and I'm always going to be that way.

  • Um, there's, there's nothing for it really, you know?

  • Like I keep waiting to, I mean, the world has beaten a

  • bit of it out of me, but I come back for more all the time.

  • Um, and on the other hand, there's great benefits of

  • being like that.

  • -Mm. -You know, there's a great

  • openness and, um, people trust me and should.

  • Um, and, you know, there's that sort of feeling that comesů

  • - In a sense, you've kept your sense of wonder?

  • - Yeah, yeah, I would say so I think, I think the scariest

  • thing for me about going through depression, um, when

  • I went through my divorce and, and the subsequent

  • despair, was having that dulled down.

  • Um, you know, that, what depression does to you and

  • what despair does to you, is it makes everything in the

  • world into sawdust.

  • - Mm. - And you lose all the

  • shimmer, and all the marvel, and all the wonder and, and

  • that made me feel more unfamiliar to myself than,

  • than anything I could imagine.

  • - Hmmm. We may come back to that.

  • Um, just staying with the journalism for a moment, one

  • of the things that really strikes me about that

  • journalism period of your life, again before Eat, Pray, Love

  • is that you were often the only woman in a very

  • macho world.

  • -Yeah. - You liked to go into those

  • very masculine worlds.

  • - Yeah. - So, for example, one of the

  • pieces that you wrote that got a lot of attention at GQ

  • was about a bar The Coyote Ugly bar, which subsequently,

  • that story got turned into a movie.

  • Um, can you talk a little bit about what you were looking

  • for in terms of what, what interested you about

  • masculinity?

  • - Um, I think I have, I think I had to spend my 20s solving it.

  • Um, I ů I like men.

  • Um, and I think that that interested me because I don't

  • think that's necessarilyů I don't think everybody

  • necessarily feels that.

  • I don't think every woman necessarily feels that way

  • about men.

  • Um, I enjoy the company of men.

  • I grew up with a, a lot of uncles and they were all, to

  • my mind, incredibly funny and, and very charming, and

  • their attention was worth the world.

  • And they were, um, they were great story tellers, um, I, I

  • mean my, my, weirdly, my happiest memories of my

  • family were when everybody was still a, um, an actual

  • alcoholic and not a recovered alcoholic

  • [laughter].

  • And they used to have these family gatherings and my

  • uncles and my grandfather and my great-grandfather, I mean,

  • like I said, people live a long time in my family,

  • despite how much they drink.

  • And they, um, they were just brilliant and, and, and

  • alluring to me.

  • Um, and I felt like, in those moments, when I was a little

  • kid, and I got to sit in the corner of the kitchen and

  • they didn't know I was there, and I was listening to the

  • dirty jokes and the raunchy stories and the, and the

  • outrageousness of men, um, they just seemed more

  • interesting to me.

  • And, I'm sorry to say this, and I do regret this, they

  • seemed more interesting to me than the women who were, now

  • I see, taking care of everything while these men

  • were having a very good time being extremely irresponsible.

  • And the women were being very responsible and

  • responsibility isn't alluringů

  • - Mm. -ů in the same way as

  • irresponsibility.

  • And, um, and so I wanted to be with those people at that table.

  • I didn't want to be with the people who were making the

  • casseroles, and washing the dishes, and paying the bills

  • and raising the children.

  • I wanted to be with those guys.

  • Um, and so I spent my 20s mostly with those guys, um,

  • and more identified with them.

  • And, and I think I did so both at a gain and at a loss

  • for myself.

  • I think it, they were interesting years.

  • They were exciting years.

  • Um, but I deniedů there was a lot that I wasn't noticing

  • about the world and there was a lot that I wasn't respecting.

  • And, um, there was a lot that I wasn't paying attention to

  • in my, my own self.

  • -So, I, I'm curious about, given what you've just said

  • about how, when you come to Eat, Pray, Love, the voice

  • and the tone, the very, um, intimate, very conversational

  • tone, as if you're talking to a girlfriend, umů

  • - Mm. - How you arrived at that

  • feminine sensibility and that feminine voice, given what

  • you've just said.

  • - I hadůI had it, um, forced out of meůthrough tremendous

  • pain, wierdly.

  • Um, I came at it through a pathway of pain.

  • Um, I was so disconnected. I'd made such mistakes.

  • I had, um, chosen so poorly, in really important ways in

  • my life, um, in, in really important interpersonal ways.

  • AndůI had denied, you know, in trying to be tough and

  • trying to be cool, and trying to be one of the guys, I, I

  • had justů just buried some very important feelings and

  • emotions and, and, I feel like by the time it came to

  • the point to write Eat, Pray, Love the only way I could

  • write it was with that sort of raw, earnestness, um, and,

  • and, and honesty.

  • And I did write it to a girlfriend.

  • One of the rules that, that I have as a writer, um, that I

  • got from my elder sister, who's, who's a really

  • brilliant writer, is:

  • never sit down to write anything, um, whether it's a

  • newspaper article, or a novel, or anything, um, until

  • you know precisely who the one person is that you're

  • speaking to.

  • And have it be one person only.

  • And each one of my books has been written to a different person.

  • And, it's a really important decision as I'm beginning a

  • project, who it's going to be, because it effects the

  • way you speak.

  • We speak to different people differently.

  • And so, I wrote the entirety of Eat, Pray, Love to my

  • friend Darcy, who lives in Brooklyn.

  • She's a, um, she's a very funky, hipster Christian.

  • Um, she and I had, her parents were Lutheran

  • ministers and she became a punk rocker and then kind of

  • drifted back toward Christianity, um, but in a

  • very kind of sceptical and, and, and complicated way.

  • Um, she's a single mum who went through searing divorce,

  • she's been through terrible depression, she's a novelist

  • whose work I really admire, and she's somebody who, in

  • the year or two prior to my going on the journey, I'd

  • become very close with and we'd spent a lot of time

  • talking about the issues that subsequently became discussed

  • in Eat, Pray, Love.

  • So when it came time to write the book, it was a letter to Darcy.

  • And so, when people say to me:

  • "I feel like you were speaking directly to me,"

  • I'm like, well I kind of was speaking directly to somebody

  • and that's what you're hearingů

  • - Mm. - Is that intimacy of, of, of

  • an actual conversation and not, um, just writing out

  • into the empty world.

  • - Given that intimacy that you create in the book so

  • memorably, I'm just wondering Liz, what the price is for

  • that degree of candour?

  • Whether, when you wrote it, given what you were saying

  • before about how gullible you areů

  • - Yeah. -ůwhether you had absolutely

  • no idea that, in creating this intimate voice, and in

  • speaking to us all this way, you were laying yourself,

  • maybe too bare?

  • - You think?

  • [Laughter]

  • Somebody said to me, they read the book, a friend of

  • mine read the book in galley, you know, before it was

  • published, and she gave it back to me and we, she took

  • me out to a cafÚ and she said:

  • "Are you really comfortable with putting all this out in

  • the world? It's really intimate."

  • And I'm paging through it going:

  • "It is, is it? Do you thinků?"

  • You know, like I really was, I just felt like:

  • this is the story, this is what happened.

  • And, um, would I have written it that way had I known that

  • 10 million people were going to read it?

  • You know? I wouldn't have been able toů

  • - No. - Because I would have not

  • been thinking about my friend Darcy, I would have been

  • thinking about that audience.

  • And, um, and it wouldn't have occurred.

  • Um, I don't regret itů in the least.

  • And, and I feel like, is there, there's a little price

  • to be paid for it but it's the one that I'm, I'm

  • contented to pay.

  • Um, the benefits of what has come into my life from that

  • journey are, are so staggering, um, that, that

  • whatever inconveniences may have arisen from it, I would

  • be ashamed to even mention, um, because they're so

  • overshadowed by the great blessing.

  • And, it, really like, shame on me, if I have all this

  • tremendous good fortune and then say like:

  • "Oh, people think they know me."

  • [Laughter]

  • Um, you know what?

  • People think they know me 'cause they freakin do

  • [laughter].

  • You know? [Laughter]

  • Like, lots of people come at you, and they're like:

  • "I feel like I know you." I'm like, you do!

  • If you read this and you read Committed you do know me.

  • You know?

  • Um, I can't fault anybody for feeling that way.

  • - So, when you talk about the blessings, let's just

  • acknowledge thenů

  • - Yeah. - ůthese blessings.

  • What is the single best thing that has happened to you as a

  • result of this book?

  • - The book, or the journey that led to the book?

  • - Okay, the journey. - Um, the, the best thing

  • that, that's happened to me from the journey, was the

  • four months in India.

  • Um, and the best thing that came of that, was spending

  • time, needing to negotiate a peace resolution between me

  • and myself.

  • Um, and it was arduous.

  • Um, it was like the YALTA Conference, you know, I mean,

  • it was really painful and difficult but it needed, you

  • know I, there was really a, it was a moment of reckoning.

  • And I feel like my whole life hinges from before that time

  • and after.

  • -Mm. -Um, and it, and it really

  • was, you know, I reached this place, um, that I slip from

  • constantly, but still, at least, I kind of know how to

  • access it now, which is that, like all of us, um, you know,

  • I always say that, you know, my, my head is a

  • neighbourhood you wouldn't want to walk around alone in

  • at night [laughter].

  • Um, and most of us, I think, have that head.

  • Um, and, and, you know, I have demonic voices, ah, that

  • we all have and I abuse myself, and I attack myself,

  • and I demean myself, and I accuse myself and I, you

  • know, I have those, that sort of court room drama going on

  • constantly.

  • And it wasn'tů.you know, all that work of meditation, and

  • all that work of reconciliation and all that

  • work of self-acceptance finally kind of allowed me to

  • discover this other voice that I've got, um, who's the

  • 'mom' of all those insane children who live in my head.

  • Um, and I've really come to think of it as that.

  • What I thought were demonic monsters are actually just,

  • um, very anxious orphans.

  • - Mm. - Um, you know?

  • And they're, you know, it wasn't 'til I realised that

  • they're just scared.

  • It's just a bunch of fear and somewhere above all of that,

  • there's a mom in a mini-van saying like:

  • "Shhhh. Mommy's driving."

  • [Laughter]

  • Um, you know:

  • "Tut, tut, tut, tut, tut, everybody quiet down."

  • You know?

  • And, and, that, you know, finding that place to just be

  • able to sort of calm myself rather than need to distract myselfů

  • -Mm. - ůor impale myself on

  • somebody with the hopes that they would save me from myself.

  • Or run away from somebody with the fear that they had

  • destroyed me or, you know?

  • Like all of this madness that defined my life up until that point.

  • Um, and, and the price, you know, the value of that is

  • beyond rubies.

  • Umů

  • - There are many writers in the audience today, I know.

  • Um, and so, I just wondered whether we could explore that

  • voice, that judgemental voice, because I know that

  • many, many writer, all writers I think, are

  • afflicted with that voice.

  • - Yeah. - And, um, I read an

  • interview with you in which you said that, you know, the

  • persistent voice, um, the judgemental voice in your

  • head was saying as you were writing Eat, Pray, Love:

  • "This sucks."

  • - Yeah. - All the time.

  • - Yeah. - So, can you just talk about

  • the process of self-forgiveness and how you learntů

  • - Yeah. -ůto quieten that voice and,

  • and bring the voice of that nurturing mother forward.

  • - Yeah, it's another orphan, who lives there right?

  • Um, you think it's this big powerful judge in a, in a

  • cloak and a wig, but it's actually just a really

  • freaked out little kid who's just very afraid of being

  • vulnerable.

  • Because, when you present something of yourself, um, in

  • any form into the world, it's scary.

  • And, the thing that wants to protect you from that, is

  • going to tell, like, stop you from doing it, um, by any

  • means necessary and one of the best means is by telling

  • you that you're, you're not worthy of, of, of even

  • attempting it, and that'll stop, that'll shut you up, right?

  • [Laughter]

  • Um, and it, and it often works.

  • And I feel likeů there'sůsome of it is motherliness, you

  • have to be very kind to yourself and very forgiving

  • to yourself.

  • Some of it is stubbornness.

  • Um, I'm stubborn about wanting to do this work.

  • And you have to be more stubborn than that voice.

  • Um, I'm, I stubbornly love and respect this work.

  • Andůyou have to, sort of, out-endure it, you know?

  • Um, it, it'll tire, that voice will tire itself out,

  • hopefully sooner than the part of you that just insists

  • on being heard and insists on, on trying.

  • And, I, I think, really one of the big breakthroughs I

  • had as a writer was when I wrote Stern Men, my first

  • novel, which was very intimidating for me.

  • I'd never written anything of that length, I didn't know

  • whether I could sustain fiction to that level.

  • It was writing about a culture I didn't really know about.

  • I'd set the bar very high.

  • And, there were tears on every page of that manuscript

  • and, and I remember, you know, being at that point of

  • just not even wanting to open up the computer because you

  • can't even look at it 'cause it's so awful.

  • And, and then I had this really stubborn moment one

  • day, where I just said:

  • "I am not going to be somebody who dies with 75

  • pages of a novel in my desk drawer.

  • I simply will not be that. And it doesn't have to be good.

  • It just has to be done."

  • - Mm. - And, for that, I'm grateful

  • to my mother because that was a motto that we grew up with,

  • that she always said, is:

  • "Done is better than good."

  • And, um, and it was, you just, I just thought, if you

  • don't, you know, and I was always taking to the, you're

  • always talking to the critics who are coming, you know,

  • they're coming.

  • And I remember, sort of, as I was writing that novel, just

  • saying to the critics:

  • "Write your own fucking book if you don't like it!"

  • [Laughter]

  • You know?

  • Like this is mine, I'm sorry. It's the best I can do.

  • It may not be good but it's all I've got.

  • Here it is. Leave me alone.

  • Get a real job.

  • You know?

  • Umů[laughterand, and, and that's the sort of, you have

  • to push hard like that, um, and, and, and be relentless

  • about wanting to be out there.

  • - And, at the same time, not complain about how hard this is.

  • Would you like to tell the story about your friend and

  • their letter to Werner Herzog.

  • - Oh, this is one of my favourite stories.

  • Um, yeah, I get really tired of people complaining about

  • how difficult the arts are.

  • Um, it's fairyland that we live in, you know?

  • Um, and working in a steel mill is a difficult job.

  • - Mm. - You know?

  • Um, writing can be a frustrating job but it'sů.

  • I mean, can we get serious aboutůyou know, really?

  • Um, I, I just feel like sometimes, you know, us

  • artistic souls can be a little over-dramatic, and we,

  • you know, act, make it worse than it is.

  • And, it's just, it's challenging, um, but

  • everything's that challenging is worth doing.

  • But it's not impossible.

  • And, and there is a wonderful story, I have a friend who's

  • an Italian independent filmmaker, and he wrote a

  • letter, um, in his 20s, that he, he got a response from,

  • from the great German filmmaker Werner Herzog, um,

  • who's sort offascinating character in his own right.

  • Um, but he wrote a letter to Werner saying, um:

  • "I'm incredibly frustrated.

  • I'm really, it's hard to live in Italy, there's no arts

  • funding, um, I can't get anybody to make my movie,

  • I can't get anybody to read my script, I can't get any

  • actors to come to auditionsů"

  • just a, a litany of complaints about how

  • difficult it was to make films.

  • And Werner wrote him back a letter and, and the first

  • line was, and he has it framed, I've seen it, he said:

  • "Stop complaining, nobody wants to hear it."

  • Um, and, and he said:

  • "It's not your fault. It's not the worů"

  • sorry,

  • "It's not the world's faultů"

  • - Mm. - "ůthat you want

  • to be a filmmaker.

  • And it's not the world's responsibility to like what

  • you do.

  • It's not the world's responsibility to fund what

  • you do.

  • It is your passion. It is your responsibility.

  • You don't have money to make a film?

  • Go steal a camera."

  • Umů [laughter]

  • like, he just laid it down.

  • He said:

  • "You're doing this voluntarily.

  • You want to be an artist voluntarily.

  • Don't keep waiting for somebody to give you

  • permission, or to give you funding, or to do anything.

  • And stop whiningů"

  • - Mm. - "And go make a movie.

  • And don't bother writing me letters about how hard it is."

  • And, and that's another kind of resilience.

  • And that's why Werner Herzog has made, what, 197,000 movies?

  • [Laughter]

  • Um, you know, each one different and each one

  • complicated in its own way.

  • - Let's talk a little bit about some of the, um, sort

  • of, public aspects of the aftermath of Eat, Pray, Love um...

  • - I like the word aftermath [laughter]

  • -Umů -Tsunami

  • [laughter]

  • - We were talking backstage a little bit about, um, Oprah's

  • interview yesterday with Lance Armstrong and you have

  • also been a guest on Oprah, and I'm very grateful to the

  • fact, that today, you're not giving answers that are just

  • one word long likeů[laughterlike him.

  • - I've never given a one word long answer to anything.

  • Sorry, I don't know how to do that.

  • Ah, Oprah Winfreyů?

  • - Yeah, what was she like? - She's amazing.

  • Um, I won't hear a bad word spoken about her.

  • I think she's fabulous.

  • And I think, um, as I was saying to you backstage,

  • I think she very much cares about the lives of women.

  • And she takes those lives seriously.

  • And, um, there are, aren't, you know, that's not often done.

  • -Mm. -And she's demeaned for that.

  • Um, but, but she's got a mission.

  • Um, and, and she's brilliant, and she's, she's funny, she's

  • witty, and it's incredibly scary to go on the show.

  • Um, you don't meet her beforehand.

  • She likes to keep it very fresh, which means that, the

  • second you sit down in this chair, you have this huge

  • speed bump that you have to get over, that suddenly,

  • there's Oprah Winfrey [laughter].

  • You know?

  • And so, she's asking you a question and I'm like:

  • "Oh my God her eyes are so big and herů."

  • you know, like, you're just, you're trying to take in

  • like, you know:

  • "Look at her. Wow.

  • I like that.

  • I wonder how much that ring cost?"

  • [Laughter]

  • You know, you'reů?

  • And you have to really focus.

  • Like, she's asking you something.

  • And she's so engaging and warm and makes, you know, um,

  • I said to her at one point:

  • "You're really good at this." [Laughter].

  • You should, you should think about this as a career.

  • And, um, but she's also, you know, she's running the world.

  • And so her boundaries are, are very, um, established and

  • they're very appropriate.

  • Um, she made me feel, in the first 10 minutes of the

  • interview, that we were the best friends who had ever met.

  • And she does that with everybody.

  • And of course we're not, but of course I thought we were.

  • [Laughter]

  • And, um, and so, when they do the commercial break, she

  • doesn't talk to you.

  • And it's not because she's arrogant.

  • It's because she's got, she's opening up a new school

  • in Africa or something.

  • Ah, she's busy.

  • And so, she's got producers all around her and she's

  • looking at cards and she's running her empire.

  • And I'm sort of sitting there in the chair like this, and I

  • don't, I'm not comfortable sitting next to someone and

  • not speakingů

  • -Mm. - So, she's sort of looking

  • at her index cards and the clock is ticking down to the

  • commercial and I go:

  • "Do you like my shoes?" [Laughter]

  • Because, I was really goingůmake conversation out

  • of whatever's there right?

  • I was like

  • "Do you likeů" and she looks over and she says:

  • "Oh yes, they're very nice" and, ah, goes back to her notes.

  • And I said:

  • "They're not mine." [Laughter]

  • They're my friend's.

  • They're my friend Cheryl's, she lent them to me."

  • She said:

  • "Oh, that's nice sweetheart."

  • You know?

  • She goes back to her thing.

  • And I go:

  • "They're from Paris." [Laughter]

  • Waitůgets worse. [Laughter]

  • She didn't respond.

  • And I said:

  • "That's in France." [Laughter]

  • And then she took her reading glasses off and she just

  • looked at me and she said:

  • "Is it?"

  • And later in the show somebody in the audience was

  • saying that they were, um, they had gotten inspired by

  • Eat, Pray, Love to go do a marathon in Paris and, it's

  • in the clip, you can see it, Oprah just turns to me and

  • she goes:

  • "That's in France." [Laughter]

  • And it's out of context, it makes no sense.

  • And I was likeů[laughter] but, ahů

  • - I think it's so telling that you would share this

  • story with us, [laughter]

  • I would keep that to myself.

  • -Oh it's too good. It's too good to not.

  • It's too, ahůnever let a little humiliation get in the

  • way ofů sharing a good story.

  • - Well, since we're on a little bit of a celebrity

  • roll hereů

  • - Mm. - ůI suppose we should ask

  • you about Julia Roberts and about what the experience of

  • meeting Julia isů

  • -Yeah. - ůbecause she's another

  • person who's sort of like Oprahů

  • -Yeah. - She's almost a one, one

  • named brand.

  • -Yeah. Um, she isůluminescent.

  • Um, she's lovely. She's very private.

  • She's very professional.

  • And I didn't have much interaction with her, to be honest.

  • Um, and I was kind of happy for that in a way.

  • They, when it came to making the film, I just felt like,

  • another thing that it'sů I'm going to list all the things

  • that annoy me about, when, when writers complain about

  • what happened to their books when they were made into

  • films, I always think it's weird because, you sold it.

  • Um, and it's like selling your house and then driving

  • by your house every day and being like:

  • "They took down the pergola!"

  • [Laughter]

  • You know? You sold it!

  • It's not yours anymore.

  • You know like, once you sell it, you know, it's out of

  • your hands.

  • And I feel like, once you sell it, you should

  • relinquish it, and, and, and, in exchange for a, a handsome

  • sum of money that makes your life better, you should let

  • them do their jobs and stay out of their way.

  • And so, that's the attitude that I took toward it and,

  • and so I didn't really want to throw myself intoů

  • - Mm. - ůthe production.

  • But they asked me, invited me to come to Rome and to watch

  • the filming.

  • And I got to meet Javier Bardem and we, and I got

  • toů[laughter] I ate dinner.

  • I ate dinner across from him. We shared a fork.

  • I'm just saying. [Laughter]

  • That is not a euphemism. I wish that it was.

  • But it's not. Um, weůhe's beautiful.

  • Him andůanywayůJulia [laughter]

  • is also very, very beautiful.

  • Um, but, but, but, the thing about her, so, I met her, and

  • she, she also didn't want to meet meů

  • -Mm. -ů because she had created

  • her own idea.

  • -Mm. - And so, she didn't want to

  • meet me until the filming was halfway finished and she'd

  • already kind of established and owned herself on the

  • stage, which I completely understood.

  • Um, so we met very briefly and she was gorgeous and

  • there's absolutely nothing on this planet that can prepare

  • you for what that face looks like from this distance.

  • She, I mean we're all familiar, we know Julia

  • Roberts' faces over the years better than we know our own.

  • And, there is no picture I have ever seen of her, there

  • is no moment I've ever seen of her, that is nearly as

  • beautiful as what she actually looks like.

  • It's crazy.

  • Um, youůI walked in and I looked at her and I just said:

  • "You're so pretty." [Laughter]

  • And, I just, she's soooo pretty.

  • And she's like:

  • "Thank you."

  • I'm like:

  • "I know people have probably told you that before but really!"

  • [Laughter] Umů

  • -You didn't tell her about your shoes did you?

  • - I didn't tell her but I didn't have a chance to get

  • into the shoes.

  • Umůshe's, she just is in sort of a cone of light.

  • And, um, and she looks like a, a fairy.

  • And she couldn't have another job besides being a movie star.

  • - Did she put on the pounds to do the Italianů?

  • - She, she didn't. Um, I don't think so.

  • I mean, there is a scene where's she's trying to

  • button her pantsů

  • -Yeah, but she doesn't look likeů -And I'm like:

  • "You call that a muffin top?"

  • - Mm. - "Honey, let me show you what itů"

  • no, I, I don't think sheů

  • -No. -ů she wanted to

  • do that to herself.

  • -Are you contractually obliged to say that you like

  • the film?

  • - No.

  • But I am contractually forbidden to say that I

  • didn't like it.

  • [Laughter]

  • - But I like it, so it's easy.

  • I like it.

  • I saw it, it makes me, I've seen it a number of times.

  • It makes me cry.

  • Um, it's, it's so surreal to me, that's it's almost beyond

  • like or not like.

  • -Mm mm.

  • Of course,

  • -Um, you know, I can't have an, I can't have a neutral

  • opinion on it.

  • Um, it's, it's just like, the first time she opens her

  • mouth, like one of the first things she says in the movie.

  • She's going to visit Katut Liyer, she's on her bicycle

  • and then they flash back and she, she goes to the medicine

  • man in Indonesia, and she says:

  • "Hi, my name is Liz Gilbert" and I'm like:

  • "No it's not!"

  • It's so weird.

  • I'm like:

  • "You're Julia Roberts!" [Laughter]

  • That's crazy! [Laughter]

  • Everybody knows you're Julia Roberts.

  • No-one's going to believe that.

  • [Laughter] Wild.

  • Umůbut I love, I, I love it, I thought it was gorgeous.

  • - Now, one of the other, um, sort of, honours I suppose

  • that gets bestowed on you when you, um, achieve what

  • you've achieved is you get invited to give a talk at TED.

  • -Mm. - Um, and your TED talk about

  • creativity and genius and about, sort of, how to deal

  • with expectations, unrealistic expectations, and

  • put those aside in order to keep working, is one of the

  • most popular TED talks of all time.

  • Um, and I know it's a source of great inspiration to a lot

  • of writers.

  • How did you come to the theory that you posit in that talk.

  • And could you just give us a little sort of synopsis for

  • those who haven't seen it?

  • - Sure.

  • Um, the, the theory isůit's just to, I was talking about,

  • umůcreativity and, and, and madness and despair.

  • And, and the western obsession with the idea of

  • theůumůthe artist who becomes a victim to their own work,

  • um, and the way that we have Romanticised that, a capital

  • R German Romanticisation of, of the artist.

  • And what a dangerous idea that is.

  • And how that's not, um, I think it's an idea that's

  • literally claimed lives.

  • Um, I think that there are a lot of books that haven't

  • been written because of that idea, and there's a lot of

  • poetry that hasn't been written, and there's a lot of

  • artists who have died younger than they may have needed to

  • because of that idea.

  • Um, and we, we support that idea because we kind of love it.

  • It's our favourite story about the arts.

  • Um, and I was looking for other models for how to think

  • about creativity that, that maybe predated that or came

  • from other societies, and that led me on a search to

  • the classical idea ofů

  • -Mm. -ůof the arts, and that led

  • me a Roman idea which was that, um, you know, there was

  • the word 'genius,' um, to the Romans did not mean that

  • somebody was brilliant.

  • It meant that somebody had a genius, and a genius was kind

  • of like an elf who lives in the walls of your house, um,

  • and who assists you on your work.

  • And it's a collaboration between you, the craftsman,

  • and this thing called a genius which is just this

  • kind of mysterious other being, um, who you are

  • negotiating your work with.

  • And it takes a lot of pressure off the artist.

  • Because everybody knew that, um, it wasn't totally up to you.

  • That the work may have failed because your genius was not

  • on the job that day.

  • Um, or the work may have, you know, you also don't get that

  • sort of crazed narcissism, that, um, the work wasn't

  • entirely your creation either.

  • Um, that there's some sort of a relationship that, that

  • exists between you and what I also call

  • "the mystery."

  • Um, and that that just feels like a healthier, and

  • certainly more interesting idea, than the, the notion of

  • the single, healer, great genius artist who, um, you

  • know, who, who, is above us all, and therefore is also

  • to, you know, to be brought down and destroyed by their

  • angst and their suffering and, um, and you know?

  • I've just sort of had it with that, um, and I think, it,

  • it's time to kind of think about things differently.

  • So, the speech was speaking to that.

  • And speaking to my own encounters with that mystery,

  • um, and I think anybody who has ever made anything, um,

  • which is probably most people in this audience, know that

  • you brush up against that sometimes.

  • - Mm. - Um, you know, as rational

  • as we may be, there are moments when, when we do work

  • that we can't necessarily account for.

  • Um, you know, where we slip from our own labour into

  • suddenly moving, on that moving sidewalk through the

  • airport, there's something under you that's sort of

  • pulling you along.

  • Um, and it's not you, um, but it's related to you, it's

  • interacting with you, and those are, you know, that's

  • the big magic.

  • Um, and, and that's the beauty of that path.

  • It's the moments where you get to have that.

  • It doesn't always last.

  • - Mm. - Um, it doesn't, it doesn't

  • always show up.

  • And the stubbornness is showing up yourself, um,

  • whether your genius is in the room or not.

  • - Because the idea is, isn't it, that, that there's a sort

  • of contract between you and your, is it your unconscious

  • or your subconscious, I can never remember?

  • - I can't, I think unconscious is when you're

  • hit on the head with a hammer?

  • [Laughter]

  • - Oh, okayůso you'reů thank you.

  • - Subconscious is when you can't remember why you keep

  • hitting yourself on the head with a hammer?

  • [Laughter]

  • - Right.

  • So, the idea is that you show up and, if you keep showing

  • up, then your subconscious will keep its part of the

  • bargain and it will show up too.

  • Whereas, if you don't show up, then you don't know

  • whether your subconscious is there or not?

  • - That's the one way to guarantee it won't worků

  • - Mm. - ůis to just not show up.

  • - Mm. - Um, and the best you can

  • hope for is, and I think the angels reward people who are

  • at their desk at six in the morning every day.

  • Um, and, after a while, they take pity on you,

  • [laughter]

  • and, they, they throw you a bone, you know?

  • Um, and, and that's a feeling I've had too where I've been like:

  • "God..? Three months I've been

  • sitting here?!"

  • You know?

  • Um, and eventually, you know, something happens, something

  • gets loosened up and, and, and comes through.

  • - Now, the process of giving a TED talk is, from what I

  • understand, because there is a TED alumnus in the audience

  • here today I know, a fairly, um, stressful experienceů

  • -Yeah. -ůand over a fairly

  • protracted period of time.

  • - It's terrifying.

  • And, and, those of you who don't know what TED is, it's

  • a, um, it's a speaking series that's now in its 26th or

  • 27th year that started in Long Beach California where

  • they just get together 50 people a year, and each

  • person is given 18 minutes to give the speech of their

  • lifetime on the subject that they know the most about, or

  • care the most about.

  • Um, the audience is, or consists of Nobel Laureates,

  • and innovators and venture capitalistsů

  • - A bit like here todayů - Yeah, like the normal

  • audience who shows up to hear me speak; a lot of

  • Nobel Laureates.

  • [Laughter]

  • And um, and it's incredibly intimidating.

  • And, um, the one thing that I've found spoken, um,

  • speaking to anybody who has ever given a TED talk is that

  • everyone there agrees that, um, they all felt they were

  • the only person who shouldn't have been invited.

  • [Laughter]

  • Um, because it's a really intimidate, it's a really

  • intimidating group of people.

  • I mean, you're looking out and Bill Gates is watching

  • you speak and waiting for you to impress him, you know?

  • And it's scary.

  • Um, and I was in tears two hours before I gave that

  • talk, um, in, in my hotel room.

  • Really, really, regretting, I mean, beyond regret.

  • Just saying;

  • "You have done an incredibly foolish thing to have

  • accepted this invitation and this is going

  • to be very humiliating."

  • Especially because, the day before I spoke, everyone was

  • speaking on subjects of science and technology and

  • robotics and genetics.

  • And I was speaking about, basically, fairies.

  • Um, and you can feel, when you watch the talk, you can

  • feel they're not into it, at first.

  • You're like, they're the first, like, they see where

  • I'm going with the fairies, and they're like

  • "errr."

  • And then, you know like, they, you know, I broke 'em down.

  • - Oh, you got a standing ovation! Come on!

  • - But it was like, but, for a while, it was, I was talking

  • to a very cold room.

  • You know, like it didn't start warmly.

  • And, the other thing about, you know, it's not a

  • self-selecting audience.

  • I mean, you guys are here because, presumably, you

  • know, either someone dragged you here or you came because

  • you like what I do.

  • And that's an audience of people who had, half of them

  • had never heard of me, so you have to introduce yourselfů

  • - Mm. - And kind of, it's really,

  • it's, it's difficult.

  • -What wasů? - UmůI never want to do it again.

  • - Was there any follow up or anything that span off it

  • that was a particularly interesting or unexpected thing?

  • - The thing is, when people, I, it gave me a different

  • audience because most people only know me from Eat, Pray, Love.

  • Most people who didn't, well even some people who did read

  • Eat, Pray, Love, but a lot of people who will diminish or

  • dismiss that book as Chick Lit, whatever that means, or

  • just, you know?

  • They have an idea about me based on that book.

  • And so, often now, I'll find that I'm, I'm at an event and

  • somebody will come up to me and, I know what they're

  • going to say when they begin with, umm, you know:

  • "I'm not really the typical person who would like you,

  • but, ah, I saw your TED talk"

  • you know?

  • [Laughter]

  • And like they really need to let you know that they're a

  • lot smarter than people who like you,

  • [laughter]

  • um, and, and I don't think they understand how terribly

  • insulting that is to me and to people who like me.

  • [Laughter]

  • Um, but, but they, you know, there's people who want to

  • just distinguish themselves from, from that crowd.

  • And that, and that TED, TED talk brought me those fans.

  • - Mm. - Yay.

  • [Laughter]

  • - You were, you were also, in terms of pressure, and kind

  • of a burden of responsibility, you were

  • named by Time magazine as one of a 100 most influential

  • people, um, in the world.

  • What does that feel like? And what do you do with that?

  • - I have done nothing with it.

  • And, um, [laughter]

  • and they need to pick a 100 people every year, and now

  • that I know how hard it is for them, 'cause after you've

  • done that for years and years and years, you can't have

  • Oprah Winfrey every single time [laughter]

  • and so they're like pretty desperate, I mean, pretty

  • desperate really.

  • Like, you get, I start getting emails now from the

  • editors of Time six months in advance saying:

  • "We really needů"

  • and they're always like "We really need women"

  • you know?

  • "We really needů"

  • ah, people who aren't, you know, techno people.

  • "We really needů"

  • So, um, ah, still, it's a great honour

  • [laughter].

  • Sorry, I don't mean to be diminishing it.

  • But that year, was the year that I kind of hid.

  • Um, soůah, that was kind of the culmin, I think that was

  • sort of at the peak of everything.

  • I went to the event with my dad which was very fun.

  • I got to introduce him to Martha Stewart and people

  • like that, which was exciting for him.

  • And, um, andůIůI went home and never, really never

  • thought about it again.

  • - Because, I mean, judging from your TED talk

  • performance, which is very polished and you look very

  • casual, and very relaxed and very at ease.

  • And, and the way you are here today, I'm just thinking one

  • could be forgiven for mistaking you for an extrovert.

  • - Oh. -Yeah?

  • - I am.

  • No I..wellů

  • - But presumablyů - I'm and introvert trapped

  • in an extrovert's body.

  • - Right. - Umů

  • - 'Cause, 'cause to be a writer, you do need to be

  • able toů

  • -Yeah. -ůto face the solitude andů

  • - Yeah. -ů not always be out there

  • getting the loveů.

  • - Yeah. -ůfrom an audience.

  • So, do you find that difficult to sort of,

  • withdraw?

  • - Um, I find it difficult toůit's not like from 'my public'

  • that I find it difficult to withdraw.

  • It's from, I have a big, I have a large, a lot of friends.

  • You know, personally, I have, um, people in my life I care

  • about a lot, and, and spend a lot of time with, and invest

  • a lot of energy in.

  • Um, I have a, a group of friends who mean the world to

  • me, um, and, and they take more of my time than, you

  • know, I mean, this is fun and this is easy and this is an

  • afternoon, and it's a delight.

  • Um, you know, your friends who are going through serious

  • problems in their lives, you know, obviously, you need to

  • be there for them in a more serious way, or, your friends

  • who you just love and want to enjoy.

  • And the hard thing for me is setting that boundary.

  • -Mm. - It's easy to say:

  • "I'm not accepting any speaking engagements for the

  • year 2011."

  • That's done and done, you know?

  • Um, it's harder to say:

  • "I'm not, you're not going to hear from me for about six months"

  • um, and

  • "Please don't be offended, but I will never write a book

  • if I am going out to dinnerů"

  • - Mm. - And, and, and that's,

  • that's hard.

  • - Mm. - And it's painful for me.

  • Um, because I love them, and, and I want to be there but it

  • doesn't work any other way.

  • - You need some of those boundaries of Oprah's?

  • You need that kind ofů?

  • - I need the index cards and the looking down, yeah.

  • - Um, let's just, since we're talking about friends, um,

  • let's just backtrack to Eat, Pray, Love and maybe you can

  • just give us a kind of a little kind of an update on Wayan.

  • How's she doing?

  • - Oh she's doing splendidly.

  • I was in Bali last year and I saw her.

  • Um, she's doing great. She's got a fancy car.

  • Um, she's got her business thriving.

  • She hasn't moved. She's still in the same place.

  • You can find her right next to the post office is Ubud.

  • Um, she's looking gorgeous.

  • She, the coolest thing about her, aside from the fact that

  • she's really financially stable now, um, in, in ways

  • that she wasn't before, and that she continues to kind

  • of, reap the boon of Eat, Pray, Love in a way that's

  • really been helpful to her and her daughter, especially

  • as a single woman in Indonesia.

  • Um, but she's become an advocate for dispossessed people.

  • Um, she, you know what, those of you who are familiar with

  • Bali, and I know, ah, many of you probably are, know that

  • each one of the villages in Bali is run by something

  • called a 'banjar,' um, which is sort of a village council.

  • - Mm. - Um, tends to be men.

  • Well, it's always men.

  • And, she has a certain amount of authority now, as a

  • landowner and a business owner, and, um, a woman who

  • has some celebrity.

  • Um, she takes on cases where she feels that people in the

  • village aren't being treated right.

  • Um she goes and makes, you know, comes to their defence.

  • Um, she looks after elderly people, who, um, you know,

  • she feels have been neglected by the community.

  • She demands that they be paid attention to.

  • Um, she's really become this really passionate social activist.

  • And, the story that I love, is that an American woman

  • moved to her home village, not Ubud but a much smaller

  • and more provincial village where she comes from, and,

  • um, and happened to be a, a lesbian, and was living with

  • her Indonesian lover, and this wasn't going over well,

  • um, in the village.

  • There was a lot of discrimination and also they

  • didn't like that it was a white woman and an Indonesian

  • woman, and they didn't like that it was two women, and,

  • and, um, they were running into a lot of trouble.

  • And Wayan went and just laid it down in this banjar

  • meeting and said, um, oh she had the best line, she was

  • telling me about it later and she said:

  • "And I told them, not your business.

  • If she's a girl and her girlfriend is also a girl."

  • [Laughter].

  • - Mm. - "Not your business.

  • You have to be kind to people anyway."

  • And, um, so she, it's just wonderful to see, this person

  • who was really struggling, um, not only achieve a

  • certain amount of security and stability in her own

  • life, but then take that power and use it to, to

  • better the lives of other women as well.

  • - Mm.

  • What about the impact of the film and the book on Bali?

  • - Mm. - Because, I was there just

  • after the filming had finished and everywhere,

  • there were T-Shirtsů

  • - Yeah. - Eat, Pray, Love T-Shirts

  • and there are toursů

  • - Yeah. - Obviously Eat, Pray, Love tours.

  • So, how do you feel about all of that?

  • - Ambivalent.

  • Um, did you see the "Eat, Pay, Leave" T-shirts?

  • [Laughter] I like those better.

  • They're very funny.

  • Umůit's you know, it's ůBali's a paradise that has

  • been under assault for a long time.

  • Um, and, and I, and I know that, ah, the expat community

  • in Bali is certainly unhappy about the fact that, that

  • their private paradise has become a public paradise.

  • Um, the Balinese that I've met are really gratefulů

  • - Mm mm? - Um, because it's provided

  • an enormous amount of, um, economic uplift for them, and

  • they, especially after the bombingů

  • - Mm. - ůthey had really, there

  • were people in very desperate straits.

  • And now, all the drivers have jobs, and the rest, I mean I

  • can't credit myself with all of this, but they're not

  • complaining.

  • It's westerners who are, who are complaining about it.

  • And it's westerners who live there and who have that thing

  • that we all have, um, where we move to a neighbourhood

  • and then we don't want anyone else to discover it after

  • we've, you know? [Laughter]

  • And so, they all have that kind of sense of people who

  • are like:

  • "Oh, I remember Provence when it was a sleepy fishing village."

  • Um, you know?

  • And, and they don't want it to be anything else.

  • - Mm. - And I understand that.

  • That's their home and, and they've made their home at it.

  • I can't, I didn't expect for that to happen.

  • You know, all I can ever say, I don't generally try to go

  • around defending myself 'cause I think it just sounds

  • weird, but, um, I didn't mean to.

  • I didn't mean to bring everybody to Bali.

  • Um, and, ah, you know, I, I hope some good comes of it

  • too, to deserving people.

  • - Mm. I'm sure it is.

  • Um, just on that subject of, you know, people's reactions

  • to things, and complaining, and, and, and all of that,

  • you, you may know that, um, ah, the Australian writer,

  • critic and poet Clive James once wrote a poem called The

  • Book of My Enemy Has Been Remaindered and I was

  • wondering, ah, and the next line is

  • "And I was glad"

  • or "I am glad."

  • - Yeah. - Um, and I was just

  • wondering whether you've come across a lot of envy of your

  • success, in the writing community and in the general community.

  • Whether people have come up to you and said:

  • "I could have written about that.

  • I could have written about going to Italy and eating

  • pasta and going to an ashram and going to look for love in Bali.

  • I could have done that but I just didn't bother."

  • I mean, do you?

  • - I do. I do hear that a lot.

  • Or, a kind of funny reaction is a kind of angry, um,

  • "That's my story."

  • You know, um, which is, like I, it's, you get

  • two ways of peopleů

  • - Mm. -ůpresenting that.

  • One is,

  • "I felt like you were telling my story. Wow."

  • Or, "That's my story.

  • I, I had a horrible divorce too."

  • You know?

  • Um, and I'm always like:

  • "I'm not blocking your door. Write your book."

  • You know?

  • Um, feel free, it's, the, you know?

  • There, there's many more stories to be told.

  • Um, I think, when something gets that much attention it's

  • going to attract all kinds of stuff.

  • Um, andůbut it's also, I feel like, you know, with what I

  • have benefitted from, you knowů

  • - Mm. - financially, creatively,

  • emotionally, you know, in every wayůit's fair game.

  • You know?

  • That's kind of how I feel about it.

  • It's like:

  • "Take your shot at it. It's okay.

  • It's a big book.

  • It can handle people attacking it."

  • You know?

  • Um, I mean, once something gets up there, it's, it's up

  • there, and thenů

  • - Mm mm. - ůpeople, it's, it becomes

  • this big projection screen and everybody projects either

  • their love, or their hate, or their disgust or their

  • distaste and that's kind of their business.

  • Um, and I don't really know if I should make it my business.

  • - Does it change any of the other more intimate and more

  • personal dynamics with writers who are in your

  • orbit, or even for example, in your family.

  • Your sister is a writerů

  • -Yeah. - She's written many books

  • for young, adult writers.

  • - Yeah. - And what she says about you

  • on her website is, um,

  • "My sister Liz is now a VERY famous writer who travels all

  • over the world collecting stories and diseases, while I

  • stay home, scowling over paint chips and trying to

  • keep my kids off our garage.

  • -Yeah. - So, she's obviously jokingů

  • - Yeah. - ůthere, about the fact that

  • you are the "VERY" famous writerů

  • - Yeah. - But I'm just wondering

  • whether in your, in your closer, in your more intimate

  • circle you've had to deal with envy that you suspect,

  • and that isn't completely overtly expressed?

  • - I think, um, yes. - Okay.

  • - But, umů - The reason I'm asking that

  • is because there are some writers in the audience

  • who've asked me about that.

  • - Yeah, but it's not, um, it's notůit's not as much as,

  • as you might think.

  • I think the fact that my circle of friends have known

  • me for so many years and they knew me long before this ů

  • -Mm. - umůandůtheyůalso know my

  • admiration for them.

  • Um, you know, as does my sister who taught me how to write.

  • You know?

  • When I was a child and who I've credited my entire life

  • with being the Sheheraůthe Scheherazade in our familyů

  • - Mm. - ůwho just spun stories and,

  • and, and formed me as an author.

  • Um, no one knows more than her how much I admire her.

  • Um, and she'll always be my big sister who's better at

  • everything.

  • Um, so she can tease me like that.

  • - Yeah. - You know?

  • Um, because we know, we know who'sů the real one

  • [laughter].

  • You know, like we know who's always been the, and, and

  • soůum, I think the fact that this, this thing, this

  • success and this stuff happened to me when I was

  • closer to 40 than to 20 means that, for one thing, I've

  • hoped that I've processed it as well as possible and that

  • I don't rub it in people's faces in any way.

  • And two, that the people who I've chosen to surround

  • myself with by this point in my life, are people of such

  • decency, um, that, that we don't base our relationships

  • on competition and resentment.

  • - Mm. - Um, if I've had friends

  • like that in my life, I don't have them anymore.

  • Um, by this age, you get a sense of knowing if somebody

  • has that in them and you cross the street.

  • - Mm. - You know?

  • Umůsoůso I feel really protected more by my friends

  • than I feel envied.

  • - As a result, again, of this kind of success and, and

  • celebrity, you get invited to, um, speak at a lot of

  • conferences and events.

  • And, when I was looking at your website to see what

  • you're doing after you leave here, I see that you're

  • speaking at a women's leadership conference.

  • I think, in the US?

  • - Yeah. - And I was interested in the

  • fact that this new phrase has come into being in the US

  • "Lean In"

  • which is the phrase of Sheryl Sandberg, the COO of Facebook.

  • And she says that the problem that women have had in the

  • workplace in getting as far as they need to get is that

  • they lean back whereas they need to lean forward.

  • - Uh huh. - So, this new phrase is

  • gathering a kind of momentum, I suppose a little bit like

  • "destroying the joint" does here.

  • And I was just wondering whether you had a theory

  • about this, this idea, this notion of leaning in and of

  • empowering women, and of women fulfilling their destiny.

  • - Um, that's an easy question.

  • No, I'm just kidding.

  • Um, I, I feel, I feel sometimes, umůthat I only

  • ever have one message for women.

  • You know, um, and that it's the same one all the time.

  • And, and I don't know whether, I don't know how

  • useful it is.

  • I don't really understand, it's funny when I get invited

  • to these women leadership things because I've never

  • worked in the corporate world.

  • - Mm. - Um, I don't have, I'm not

  • struggling with the burden of a career and raising a family.

  • Um, I've chosen a different path than that.

  • I'm a childless artist.

  • I really almost have no business speaking to people

  • who are leaning forward into those male dominated business worlds.

  • They invite me. I come.

  • You know?

  • And I bring what I've got.

  • And, and, and I feel likeůthe only thing I've ever got to

  • say is that we, as women in the 21st Century, need to

  • constantly maintain a very realistic perspective on how

  • far we have come and how quickly, and how tricky our

  • position is right now.

  • Um, there's justůwomen are very hard on themselves and I

  • feel like my message is, is constantly about trying to

  • relax that grip a bit.

  • Um, and one of the things I think that, that women in the

  • States are hard on themselves about, and I am assuming that

  • it's the same here, is this, um, perfectionism, of, you

  • know, why can't I make it work?

  • Why can't I be fantastic at my career, and a total

  • success at my marriage, and a fantastic mother, and a

  • terrific neighbour and all these things that are somehow

  • expected of me?

  • And why, you know, why does it appear that this is the

  • model and I'm failing at, at that?

  • Um, and, and why am I exhausted, and why am I

  • confused and why do I have huge crises of conscience

  • whenever I look at something that another woman is doing

  • that's totally different from my life and suddenly I have

  • to re-evaluate whether I've taken all the wrong steps the

  • entire time because her life looks a lot better than mine does.

  • And this is the dialogue that's kind of going on with

  • all of us all the time.

  • And, and, and all I can say is that, it's so new, what we are.

  • You know?

  • Um, women of, of, of I say

  • 'this generation,' by which I mean any woman

  • probably born in the last 70 years in the

  • industrialised west, almost are a new species

  • of human being.

  • We don't have centuries and centuries and centuries of

  • role models and mythologies to look back to, at how you

  • do it, because no one ever was given what we are given.

  • We don't have literate, articulate, financially

  • autonomous, biologically autonomous, um, women to look

  • back at through history because they didn't exist.

  • Um, it's, we're just starting, you know?

  • And, and so, of course we don't totally know how to do it yet.

  • And it doesn't help that in my country, um, we are asked

  • to be all these things.

  • To be successful career women, to be mothers, to be wives.

  • And the society at large also says:

  • "Oh, by the way, we're not going to help you with any of that."

  • - Mm. - Um, we're not going to give

  • you any childcare, we're not going to give you any

  • healthcare, we're not going to do anything to help you

  • with that.

  • You just have to do it, um, and make it look easy, and

  • stop crying.

  • Um, why, why are you so sad, and why are you taking

  • anti-depressants? [Laughter]

  • What's the matter with you?

  • Um, you know, and, and, and there's, there's justůI just

  • feel like we have to take the long view.

  • Um, you know, we're standing on the shoulders, I'm

  • standing on the shoulders of women of the previous

  • generation who took incredible risks for me to

  • have the freedoms that I've got, but they're new freedoms.

  • - Mm. - Um, and, and it's going to

  • take us a while to figure out exactly how to do it.

  • Is that 'leaning forward' I don't know.

  • Umů.butů

  • - It's standing straight, it's a start.

  • - Standing straightůor maybeůputting down the knife

  • that you're holding to your own throatů

  • -Mm. -ůum, which, which I would

  • certainly hope to encourage people to do.

  • - We've got about, um, according to this, we've got

  • 5 minutes and 22 seconds leftůokayů.soů

  • - 19ů18ů - Given, that that's the

  • case, I would love it if you would tell us a little bit

  • about the book that's in the foyer, your

  • great-grandmother's cookbook and also, ah, perhaps a

  • little bit about your novel which is coming out in October.

  • - Cool.

  • Okay, my great-grandmother's cookbook is a book I

  • rediscovered when I was cleaning out my attic.

  • I have an extraordinary great-grandmother it turns

  • out, who wrote a brilliant and hilarious cookbook that

  • was published in 1947 in Philadelphia.

  • She was a food columnist for the local newspapers and I

  • found this book, started reading it, and realised that

  • she was so much of our time than of her time, speaking

  • of, of, um, the freedoms that we've now got.

  • Um, she would have been a fabulous writer of this

  • generation but she didn't have a voice then.

  • So, I've brought the book back into print, and all the

  • proceeds go to a wonderful educational charity called

  • ScholarMatch that helps send very promising kids from, um,

  • under-served communities to university.

  • So, because of this new book being published, there are,

  • um, I think the number now is 25 or 26 kids in the States

  • who are able to start college this year who wouldn't have

  • been able to otherwise.

  • So, that's fantastic.

  • - Mm. - So, and the recipes are

  • terrific and, she has a voice like Dorothy Parker.

  • Um, she's just a delight.

  • - She's hilarious. - She's fantastic.

  • Um, and then the novel is coming out in October.

  • It's called The Signature of All Things and it is a period novel.

  • It takes place, um, in the 19th Century and covers the,

  • ah, the fortunes of a family who is involved in botanical

  • exploration and the early, basically pharmaceutical business.

  • Um, it takes place all over the world.

  • It's a, it's a, big romping travel adventure, history,

  • fun, sadůyou'll laugh, you'll cryůahů.

  • - It has an Australian dimension to it.

  • - Yes. - Um, I've only been able to

  • read the first chapter but Joseph Banks is a character

  • in the first chapterů

  • - Yeah. - So, maybe you'd like to say

  • how you decided that you wanted to write about him?

  • - Ah, well, I found another attic find, I think, from now

  • on, I'm only going to write books based on things I find

  • in my attic, but, umů.[laughter]

  • ah, a book that had been, belonged to my

  • great-grandfather that had come down through the

  • generations in my family.

  • Um, an incredibly rare, beautiful, um, 1780 volume of

  • Cook's Voyages um, with the original ethnographic

  • illustrations, the original botanical illustrations, the

  • prints, the incredibleůscientific work

  • that these guys were doing when they were travelling

  • around the world on the Endeavour.

  • Um, andůahůand soů.I became fascinated with that book,

  • and, and, and as I started to study Cook, I realised that

  • the, the much more interesting character, was Banks.

  • - Mm. - Um, in the same way that

  • when you start to study Darwin, you find that the

  • much more interesting character is, um, Wallace.

  • You know, like there's these sort of shadow, more

  • charismatic people hidden in history, and, and so, um,

  • Banks becomes a very powerful figure in the beginning of

  • the book, setting the destiny of the young man who's the

  • patriarch of the family about which I write.

  • - 'Cause it's interesting that the book has botany as,

  • as a theme.

  • And, I'm thinking of you growing up on your Christmas

  • tree farm, and the fact that I know that you like

  • gardening as a kind of relaxation, and it seems that

  • you've integrated all sorts of things and come back to

  • the beginning which is:

  • growing up in the country andů

  • -Yeah. - ůand having your hands

  • dirty, and the sort of peace that comes from gardening,

  • which is a very good, um, ahůthing to do when, when

  • you're not writing, and, in fact, frees up your mindů

  • - Yeah. - ůoften, so that the

  • creativity comes to you while you've got your hands in the soil.

  • Do you find that?

  • - Definitely.

  • It's a, it's a fantastic, um, alternative.

  • It's something that you can generate, um, that isn't

  • intellectual, it's more physical, um, but it's still

  • creative and, and, and, my mum always told us when we

  • were growing up, that any day that you don't put your hands

  • in the earth is a day you're not living.

  • Um, and despite the fact that I made every effort as a

  • child to learn nothing from her, um, I accidentally

  • learned a lot of really wonderful things.

  • And found, when it came, when I settled down and bought a

  • house in the country, and looked out the window of my

  • kitchen and saw a patch of lawn and realised, well that

  • won't do, um, that, that is now just this huge cottage

  • garden, um, that, that, I accidentally had learned how

  • to be a gardener, despite really resentfully pushing

  • back against those chores, um, and that I knew more than

  • I knew I knew.

  • Um, and, and so, when I got into that, and then found

  • Cook's book, and then realised, you know, just got

  • very interested in the history of botany, um, it,

  • it, it did seem to come full circle.

  • - We've come to the end of our time together.

  • I hope you found it as inspiring as I have.

  • Please join me in thanking Elizabeth Gilbert.

  • [Applause] - Thank you.

  • [Applause] Thank you.

  • Do we get up?

  • [Applause] Thank you.

  • -Enjoy it while you can.

  • [Applause] -Thank you so much.

[Applause]

Subtitles and vocabulary

Click the word to look it up Click the word to find further inforamtion about it