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  • HEFFNER: I'm Alexander Heffner, your host on The Open Mind.

  • A founding organizer for the Women's March,

  • my guest today is Sophie Ellman-Golan.

  • Now she helps lead Never Again Action,

  • a mass mobilization of Jews who are organizing to

  • shut down ICE and hold the political establishment

  • accountable for enabling both the deportation

  • machine that has separated immigrant families across the

  • U.S. for decades and the current crisis at the border.

  • "Conservatives purport to defend Jews even as they

  • embrace policies that most Jews deplore,

  • and infuriating and intolerable," is how

  • Ellman-Golan describes this climate and the

  • resurgence of white nationalism and

  • anti-Semitism, in part fueled by President

  • Trump's own politics.

  • "It's imperative that we loudly speak for

  • ourselves," Ellman-Golan told the New York Times,

  • "because if we don't, the loudest voices that claim

  • to speak on behalf of Jews will be right-wing

  • Evangelical Christians." Welcome,

  • Sophie, a pleasure to have you here.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: Thank you so much.

  • HEFFNER: Is it not that false equivalency in the

  • dynamic between how we think of attacks on Jews

  • from the right and left that is really troubling today?

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: Absolutely.

  • I would say the first troubling thing is this

  • rise of white nationalism and anti-Semitism and the

  • ways that both have been completely embraced by the

  • Republican Party, overall.

  • But I agree that the discourse we see around

  • anti-Semitism is particularly troubling

  • because of a false equivalence between

  • violent acts of anti-Semitism,

  • violence that comes from manifestos that are

  • written about Jews trying to replace a white

  • population versus a, an anti-Semitic cartoon or a

  • comment that has to do with the criticism of the

  • state of Israel or tweeting Tupac lyrics.

  • And we just have to be able to say that these

  • things are not the same.

  • We have to be able to say that inciting murder is

  • not the same as tweeting Tupac lyrics.

  • HEFFNER: How do you differentiate between the

  • comments of someone like Congressman King of Iowa

  • and Congresswoman Omar?

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: I would say that probably the,

  • the primary difference is that Steve King is pretty

  • adjacent to Nazis and that representative Ilhan Omar is not.

  • I mean, Steve King has gone on trips to meet with

  • people who helped found or are inheritors of

  • publications that were founded by Nazis.

  • He has come pretty close to saying the 14 words,

  • which are of course the 14 words of white

  • supremacists that talk about securing a future

  • for white children, et cetera.

  • I mean this is a man who is not in a state that was

  • ever part of the confederacy,

  • has a confederate flag on his desk.

  • It's pretty clear what he stands for.

  • So I think one of the primary distinction is

  • that for Steve King white nationalism,

  • above all is what he stands for and what he promotes.

  • Anti-Semitism is a facet of that.

  • I think that for representative Omar,

  • who is undeniably a progressive champion

  • right now, she has criticism of Israel.

  • I think that she said things that she probably

  • could have raised differently.

  • I think that we can argue, you know,

  • we can argue until the cows come home about

  • whether something was or was not anti-Semitic.

  • It's important to note that while a large

  • percentage of the Jewish community felt troubled

  • by it, that's worth mentioning,

  • which is why she apologized.

  • Steve King has never ever done that and refuses to

  • take accountability and instead continues to

  • spout off absurd offensive things,

  • even the most recent being that we wouldn't have a

  • population today or Western civilization were

  • it not for rape.

  • So I mean there's no end to,

  • to kind of the limits of his,

  • of his patriarchy and white nationalism and anti-Semitism.

  • I think with representative Omar,

  • we're also witnessing that attacks on her come not

  • just from people who are genuinely concerned about

  • anti-Semitism, but by and large from people who are

  • deeply concerned about the fact that a black Muslim

  • woman who wears a hijab is in Congress and dares to

  • be any of those things at once.

  • HEFFNER: I think qualitatively you answered

  • it in the way that our audience can understand.

  • There has been this disconnect and it's

  • growing between the community that's very

  • small in this country of Jews who put Israel's

  • security first and the larger majority of

  • American Jews who put American Jews security first.

  • And why in the aftermath of Trump's election those

  • Republicans were not outraged about the

  • desecrations, the increase in hate crime against the

  • Jewish community.

  • I don't think Jews, the majority of Jews are

  • responsive to President Trump's attempt in what

  • I thought was his most anti-Semitic day yet,

  • to call Jews who don't support him disloyal.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: Yeah.

  • I mean polling shows pretty clearly that Israel

  • is not even close to the top issue that American

  • Jews vote on.

  • J Street did a poll, did some of the great polling

  • about 2018 Jewish voters, and I think it was

  • something like 4 percent said that Israel was a

  • priority for them.

  • Predominantly it's been healthcare and the economy

  • and lately gun violence is up there pretty high too.

  • So these are the issues that Jews,

  • shockingly like Americans because we are, care about

  • and are voting about and are taking action on.

  • And of course also on immigrant justice,

  • which we've been seeing recently with the rise of

  • Jews Against ICE.

  • So I'd say all of that to say just that I think it's

  • a fundamental misunderstanding of the

  • Jewish community to even think that that is a

  • priority that Israel is a priority for us.

  • It's also anti-Semitic to constantly assume that

  • Jews care the most about Israel.

  • That stems from, of course,

  • deep anti-Semitic tropes about Jewish loyalty,

  • about this idea of a global Jewish cabal that

  • cares more about another country than the country

  • they reside in.

  • HEFFNER: You are really drawing the public's

  • attention to a crisis in these detention centers.

  • And because again, we have to be intellectually

  • honest I want to start by asking you about the conditions.

  • Some including representative Ocasio-

  • Cortez have compared the detention centers to

  • concentration camps.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: I would say myself,

  • and the many amazing folks who are leading Never

  • Again Action from folks like Serena Adlerstein and

  • Alyssa Rubin and Ben Doernberg and many others

  • who are really at the helm of that work as well.

  • We've been taking action because we simply see that

  • the conditions are concentration camps.

  • Representative Ocasio- Cortez was not the first

  • person to say that.

  • Many people said it beforehand.

  • I think we saw her political opponents jump

  • on that: use Jews as an excuse to take her down

  • and express more outrage about the word she used to

  • describe a blatant human rights abuse than they've

  • ever expressed for the actual human rights abuse.

  • So when we're talking about what's happening on

  • the ground, and you know, I want to also say that

  • immigrant rights groups have been doing this

  • organizing for a long time.

  • Movimiento Cosecha has been doing this organizing

  • since the Obama Administration,

  • where they, you know, stepped up and spoke out

  • against the 3 million deportations we saw during

  • that era as well.

  • But what's happening right now is pretty blatantly:

  • people deprived of food, deprived of water,

  • deprived of healthcare, deprived of sanitary products.

  • I mean, just the blatant abuse from sexual violence

  • to emotional and physical abuse is beyond belief.

  • And the fact that we would,

  • the fact that there are people who would rather

  • argue about what words we use instead of argue about

  • how we can abolish these atrocities is shocking to me.

  • And it's a clear; it's a clear attempt I think to

  • deflect away from talking about the conditions.

  • But the other thing that I say is that we should be

  • using the strongest possible words to describe

  • what's happening right now.

  • I do know concentration camps is a strong term to

  • use and we use it intentionally because we

  • should be using strong language to describe the

  • horrors that are happening on our southern border and

  • at ICE detention centers around the country. Yeah.

  • HEFFNER: I think that morally,

  • emotionally and physically,

  • there is the precipice of, you know,

  • exterminating people's souls more than human

  • bodies at this point.

  • But internment camp is an analogy that I think maybe

  • more approachable to people who remember how we

  • treated the Japanese or Japanese Americans.

  • So you have a politics in a public policy that is

  • completely at odds with your hope to free or

  • enfranchise ultimately a population of the people

  • who've lived here, worked here with their families

  • and communities and have been detained and deported.

  • I mean, we're talking about I think two subsets:

  • the current crisis on the border escaping violence

  • or economic hardship from central Latin American

  • countries; and then we're talking about the

  • historically problematic immigration law where

  • there are people who've been here for 20 years,

  • 10 years, five years, who've demonstrated their

  • contributions to this country and we want to disown them.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: The perfect answer to that is actually

  • the policy that Cosecha is pushing for,

  • which is they called the dignity plan or Dignity 2020.

  • And what that calls for is an immediate end to

  • detention and end to deportation.

  • And papers for the 11 million undocumented

  • people living in this country.

  • And it's a push and it might seem to a lot of

  • people like a big one, but I mean,

  • we have been watching the immigrant rights movement

  • try so hard and work tirelessly to fight for

  • dignity and instead we've seen from our elected

  • officials, tiny, tiny scraps of gains.

  • I mean important legislation has passed for

  • sure, but legislation that has separated out families

  • or felons this idea of good immigrants and bad immigrants.

  • So we need to be asking and demanding that people

  • and our legislators in particular,

  • but also all of this country recognize the

  • humanity of all people regardless of whether or

  • not they are good or bad or fit into good or bad stereotypes.

  • HEFFNER: You even acknowledged that your,

  • that plan is radical in some sense,

  • but it's departing from what has been common law

  • in this country for some time.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: Yeah, I mean,

  • I think, well first of all,

  • I like radical so I'll say that.

  • Look, I think that when we have particularly the

  • climate crisis that is just completely changing

  • the way that people can even live on this earth,

  • forcing migration.

  • When we have mass violence that is caused in large

  • part by American foreign policy or certainly

  • exacerbated by it.

  • I think that just simply the conditions are changing.

  • We are not living in the same world that we were

  • 20 years ago, 40 years ago, you know, 100 years ago.

  • Not only is there more communication between

  • other countries, but also just in terms of what

  • is livable land.

  • So I don't know if it's feasible to act as if we

  • can have the same policies when the land that people

  • can physically live on is literally shrinking.

  • HEFFNER: Isn't there a way to have laws defining

  • citizenship and still treat people who are

  • entering here by non-legal means a with dignity.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: I largely feel that it's my role in this,

  • in this broader movement to really follow

  • the lead of and support the work of undocumented

  • activists who are at the forefront of this kind of organizing.

  • And you know, activists from directly affected communities.

  • So I really listen to the folks at Cosecha,

  • at Mijente and other organizations like that

  • because they're frankly the experts in this issue, not me.

  • And I don't want to present myself as one

  • because I'm not my area is much more on anti-Semitism

  • and white nationalism, which certainly intersects

  • with what we're seeing right now.

  • What I would say is that yes,

  • we need to know how many people are in this country

  • for the same reason we need a census because you

  • need to know how to provide resources to certain areas.

  • And you know, how many people are there so we

  • know how many, how many dollars we need to

  • allocate for those people: just basic social services requirements.

  • But I would say that I think that what we're

  • watching happening right now is a shrinking of this

  • idea of who is American, a narrowing of who counts as American.

  • I mean, we're watching it even with this latest

  • ruling to suggest that Americans who are foreign

  • service agents and have children abroad have to

  • actually apply for citizenship for their children.

  • There is this narrowing and it's a desire that

  • frankly, we've seen since Trump first articulated

  • Make America Great Again, a desire to reduce

  • who is American to white Christian,

  • sis hetero, predominantly men on women will be

  • allowed if you know those white CIS hetero women are,

  • you know, can do, do what the nice men tell us to do, right?

  • So I think that that's really the thing that

  • happened that we have to come back and as we've

  • watched over the past few years,

  • the right pull the center further and further right,

  • we have to pull back. We have to,

  • we have to pull back because otherwise we're

  • watching the center and we,

  • and we spoke about this earlier,

  • we're watching the center move further and further

  • right and we're losing ground in that way.

  • So it's actually necessary that we not just say what

  • is wrong and horrible but that we counter balanced

  • with a vision of what this country truly could be and

  • what community and humanity could really be.

  • HEFFNER: Does support for ICE

  • intersect with white nationalism?

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: Yes. In, a word? Yes.

  • I would say that ICE is in;

  • ICE right now is carrying out a white nationalist project.

  • I mean, you mentioned the question of,

  • oh well, you know, should people be given

  • citizenship or not?

  • The basic threat that overall immediately needs

  • to be removed is ICE.

  • ICE needs to be abolished because the constant

  • terror that the 11 million undocumented people in

  • this country are living under with this constant

  • fear of ICE raids of ICE detention of ICE

  • separating their families and abusing people

  • and tearing them apart.

  • So I would say that ICE is absolutely carrying out a

  • white nationalist project.

  • And we've seen this in part also because we've

  • seen Latinx citizens of this country who've

  • actually been detained by ICE.

  • People who have Latinx last names are being

  • denied passports right now or forced to jump through

  • extra hoops to prove their citizenship.

  • It's clearly race-based.

  • But let's also go back to the founding of ICE.

  • I mean, ICE was established in I believe 2003.

  • It was a follow-up to 9/11 and that was when

  • the immigration conversation really shifted from one

  • about basic migration into one about security.

  • And that's what, and to the viewing of immigrants

  • as constant security threats.

  • Not that that's the first time that happened in

  • American history, we've seen that over and over

  • and over again, but in this recent iteration,

  • that's what ICE is designed to do.

  • HEFFNER: When you have such pernicious rhetoric

  • emanating from the office that oversees ICE and you

  • see examples of ICE officers who are

  • justifying their behavior by virtue of Trumpian

  • rhetoric, then the description you offer of a

  • white nationalist project, I mean it's a slippery

  • slope and, I see you find the current conditions

  • intolerable and you see them as potentially

  • leading to extremism.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: The end goal of white nationalism or

  • perhaps the end result of white nationalism is

  • inevitably mass slaughter and mass violence

  • or mass expulsion, right?

  • Because the idea of a white ethno state requires

  • that people who don't fit within those parameters

  • are not there.

  • And how are we going to be gone?

  • We're either going to be forcibly expelled or we're

  • going to be slaughtered.

  • And I truly don't mean to fear monger because

  • I think that that's not productive either.

  • But I'm just talking about the logical conclusion of

  • what we're seeing from both a policy standpoint

  • and from the rise of far right movements that are

  • cozying up closer and closer to elected officials.

  • HEFFNER: There is this disconnect that the

  • Republicans are vouching for Israel and they're

  • claiming the mantle of something in service of

  • gas lighting or something else to really deflect

  • from the fact that under Trump,

  • there is concern about that path to

  • authoritarianism and genocide that you're

  • describing, because of the rhetoric and how

  • incremental or rapid the rhetoric turns into

  • behavior, I know you're so troubled about ICE because

  • that is analogous to the beginnings or maybe not

  • even beginnings of violence, race-based violence in this country.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: Yeah, I mean,

  • I think, look, the RJC is a minority of the Jewish

  • community in this country.

  • I wouldn't say that they're not Jewish because

  • I think that one thing we're actually witnessing

  • right now as an effort from right-wing Jewish

  • community members to try to de-legitimize the

  • Jewishness of left-wing Jews.

  • And I don't want to participate in that either way.

  • So don't get me wrong, Matt Brooks,

  • head of the RJC is Jewish.

  • His understanding of what it means to be Jewish is

  • radically different than mine and radically

  • different than about 80 percent of American Jews

  • in this country.

  • I think that we've seen from the RJC's constant

  • embrace of this president, a deep decision to align

  • with white nationalism and frankly to align

  • with anti Semitism as well.

  • I mean, we saw back in, I'm trying to remember the

  • month when it was, but Trump spoke to the RJC in

  • Nevada a few months back and referred to Netanyahu,

  • the Prime Minister of Israel as your prime

  • minister to a room of American Jews. Right?

  • They didn't speak out against the, against this at all.

  • It doesn't actually trouble them at all

  • because perhaps it either rings true or to them,

  • it speaks to this, you know,

  • his support for Israel and they accept that as

  • support for Jews. The majority of Jews do not.

  • But the other thing that I would say is that not only

  • is this sort of, this conflation of,

  • of support for Jews with support,

  • for support, for American Jews,

  • with support for Israel, anti-Semitic because that

  • that leads and opens up space to act also as if

  • somehow American Jews are then responsible for every

  • act of the State of Israel regardless of how much we

  • actively agitate against what that State is doing.

  • But the other thing that I would say is that

  • right-wing support for the current Israeli government

  • is in line with right-wing support for this current

  • government and for this current president,

  • because we're witnessing a rise of global

  • authoritarianism and ethno-nationalism from the

  • Nation-State law that passed in Israel;

  • from the white nationalism we're seeing in this

  • country, from the violence we're seeing in India,

  • from laws that are being passed around,

  • how animals can be slaughtered in Hungary.

  • It's, this is a consistent trend that we're seeing

  • across the globe and it's not surprising that the

  • supporters of some of these leaders support

  • the other leaders.

  • HEFFNER: In fact, populism is what you do.

  • You know, it's mobilize on the ground and talk about

  • your fellow human beings and their plight and their concerns.

  • So as a final question here: how has your mobilization,

  • the protest that you've led and driven

  • outside of ICE facilities how is that,

  • how can that lead to bettering the conditions there?

  • How, you know, have there been results that you're

  • pleased with and you know, the long,

  • the longer-term vision here is only a new

  • president can disband ICE or can radically change ICE.

  • How do you hope that your mobilization now,

  • in the event that there is a Democratic president in 2021,

  • how can your mobilization lead to a further action?

  • But what's it doing right now and what can it do

  • in the future?

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: So what Never Again Action is

  • doing right now is what we wish we as Jews wish that

  • a non Jews in Germany had done in 1938,

  • 1939 and onward, which is essentially to do

  • everything we can to stop this deportation and

  • deportation and detention machine.

  • So that does mean holding these direct actions,

  • nonviolent direct actions outside of ice immigrant prisons.

  • That means disrupting the ability of DHS officers

  • and agents to go to work and continue engaging in

  • basic human rights abuses every day.

  • And I would say that it definitely is working

  • because we've seen a response.

  • Not only did we see that we shut down the DHS

  • headquarters in DC for about half a day,

  • they went into a total lockdown because of an

  • action we held there about a month or so ago.

  • And recently a letter from the CEO of the Geo Group,

  • which is a private prison company,

  • one of the largest that runs a lot of immigrant

  • prisons, a leaked letter was revealed that showed

  • that they were also responding to,

  • and clearly alarmed by the actions of Never Again Action

  • and alarmed by Jews against ICE, who are taking action.

  • Very interestingly in that,

  • in that letter that came out that I believe that

  • Ken Klippenstein from the Young Turks revealed and,

  • and leaked is that they reference,

  • they don't reference, I believe Jews against ICE as Jewish.

  • They just talk about us as protesters.

  • And instead they note that mainstream Jewish

  • organizations disagreed with the term concentration camps.

  • So again attempting to actually delegitimize our

  • Jewishness because that somehow clearly poses a

  • threat to them.

  • The idea of Jews against ICE is not the look that they want.

  • And so they're trying to downplay it.

  • And I'd say that's also effective.

  • HEFFNER: I would say at a minimum your hope would be

  • that a new president would distance himself or

  • herself from the ongoing reality here of the

  • monetization of these facilities.

  • I mean, the fact that folks are making money on

  • inhumane conditions of detention facilities.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: I would say, yeah,

  • I would say a short term plan is abolishing ICE

  • and a longer and a longer term plan involves again,

  • I think papers for people who are living in this country.

  • But I think an end to these detention centers

  • and an end to deportations is absolutely necessary.

  • HEFFNER: If you first deal with this deplorable idea

  • of wretchedly monetizing prison camps for people

  • who, you know, if you want to believe in legal and

  • illegal immigration, they may not belong here,

  • but they don't deserve inhumane conditions

  • in the first place.

  • But people are probably going to leave this asking

  • what do you replace ICE with?

  • So what would be your vision for what

  • to replace ICE with?

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: Well, ICE only serves to roundup

  • immigrants who are living not on the border,

  • ICE does not function on the border,

  • so ICE truly only exist to round people up in,

  • not in states that are not necessarily border states

  • or states, I believe, or locations that are not

  • within 100 miles of the border, I think.

  • HEFFNER: So basically current criminal justice

  • can adequately deal with people who may be here

  • illegally or who are here illegally and who've

  • committed crimes. I mean, because that's the,

  • that's that's the central concern of people who

  • don't want to admit people and want to reserve the

  • right to deport people who have committed crimes.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: I mean, I would say first of all,

  • I would say that the current criminal justice

  • system does not work either. And we've seen that.

  • It's fundamentally unjust.

  • But I would also say that this entire idea of sort

  • of the, the criminal dangerous immigrant is

  • completely inflated, just even if you look at the

  • numbers of who engages in violent crime in this country.

  • And again, I say this over and over again,

  • when we look at who poses a violent mortal threat to

  • communities in this country,

  • it's growing white nationalist groups that

  • actually are getting less and less attention.

  • HEFFNER: If those Jews who were escaping Nazi Germany

  • or occupied territories were to say I am crossing

  • this border and they were fleeing genocide,

  • I don't think today the people who accuse Mexican

  • or Venezuelan American people of illegal

  • immigration; I don't think they would have

  • characterized them as criminals by virtue of

  • illegal immigration because in order to escape

  • Nazi Germany, people had to cross borders.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: I mean, I think the way that Jews

  • are seen today, the way that white Jews are seen

  • today white Jews fleeing Nazi Germany where that

  • today would not, would not be given the same reception.

  • Because I think that white people are not

  • automatically criminalized in the same way that

  • people of color are.

  • That being said, I mean the Saint Louis is a ship

  • that was bringing Jews who were fleeing occupied

  • territories and it was turned away.

  • HEFFNER: Right.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: So, you know,

  • I think that we have always;

  • I think that what we've seen from history is that

  • there will always be people who will find

  • reasons to justify not doing the basic humane

  • things that we know we must do.

  • And that begins with dehumanizing the people

  • who we know we have to help or at least extend a

  • basic sense of dignity to. So I think that we saw that,

  • frankly, we saw that back in,

  • in the 30s and forties, and we're seeing it now.

  • HEFFNER: Thank you so much for your time today Sophie.

  • ELLMAN-GOLAN: Thank you.

  • HEFFNER: And thanks to you and the audience.

  • I hope you join us again next time

  • for thoughtful excursion into the world of ideas.

  • Until then, keep an open mind.

  • Please visit The Open Mind website at

  • Thirteen.org/OpenMind to view this program online

  • or to access other interviews and do check us out

  • on Twitter and Facebook @OpenMindTV

  • for updates on future programming.

HEFFNER: I'm Alexander Heffner, your host on The Open Mind.

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