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  • >> WE'VE ALWAYS HEARD ABOUT

  • CHINA TAKING OVER TAIWAN, BUT,

  • IN A SENSE, COULD THE REVERSE BE

  • TRUE?

  • WE'LL TALK ABOUT THE

  • POSSIBILITIES NEXT ON

  • "GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES."

  • >> THIS PROGRAM IS MADE POSSIBLE

  • IN PART BY FUNDING FROM...

  • >> THIS IS

  • "GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES," WITH

  • PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING

  • COMMENTATOR JOHN BERSIA.

  • >> WELCOME TO

  • "GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES."

  • WILL TAIWAN BE ABLE TO MAINTAIN

  • ITS NUANCED BUT SELF-GOVERNING

  • STATUS IN THE FACE OF RISING

  • CHINESE NATIONALISM?

  • IN AN INTERVIEW ON THIS PROGRAM,

  • CHINESE SCHOLAR LU XIANG

  • DOWNPLAYED HIS COUNTRY'S

  • TERRITORIAL DISPUTES.

  • >> ONLY THIS SMALL QUESTION --

  • SMALL PROBLEMS WITH CHINA.

  • WE WANT TO SETTLE THAT IN MAYBE

  • 10 OR 20 YEARS.

  • >> TODAY'S GUEST,

  • DAVIDSON COLLEGE

  • POLITICAL-SCIENCE PROFESSOR

  • SHELLEY RIGGER, IS AN EXPERT ON

  • TAIWANESE AND CHINESE POLITICS

  • AND UNIQUELY SUITED TO HELP US

  • PARSE THE ISLAND'S FUTURE.

  • WELCOME TO THE SHOW, SHELLEY.

  • THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

  • >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

  • >> TELL US ABOUT NATIONALISM IN

  • CHINA.

  • WE HEAR ABOUT IT, WE READ ABOUT

  • IT.

  • DO WE REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT'S

  • GOING ON AND WHAT THIS MAY MEAN

  • FOR THE FUTURE OF CHINA'S

  • RELATIONS WITH ITS NEIGHBORS,

  • WITH THE U.S., AND SO FORTH?

  • >> THE REALLY TRICKY QUESTION, I

  • THINK, WITH -- WHEN WE'RE TRYING

  • TO THINK ABOUT CHINESE

  • NATIONALISM IS HOW MUCH OF IT

  • IS REALLY INNATE IN CHINESE

  • CITIZENS, AND TO WHAT EXTENT IS

  • NATIONALISM KIND OF ENCOURAGED

  • AND SPONSORED BY THE GOVERNMENT,

  • BY THE CHINESE STATE?

  • AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO

  • LOOK AT THESE ISSUES THINK THAT

  • THE STATE IS VERY RESPONSIBLE,

  • AND THERE'S A LOT OF GOOD

  • EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST THAT THINGS

  • THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT DOES DO

  • ENCOURAGE NATIONALISTIC FEELING

  • ON THE PART OF CHINESE PEOPLE.

  • BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, WHETHER

  • FROM WITHIN OR BECAUSE OF THESE

  • MESSAGES THAT THEY'RE RECEIVING

  • FROM WITHOUT, CHINESE CITIZENS

  • HAVE BECOME GENUINELY

  • NATIONALISTIC.

  • AND, OF COURSE, CHINESE HAVE

  • ALWAYS BEEN PATRIOTIC AND CARE

  • DEEPLY ABOUT THE FUTURE AND FATE

  • OF THEIR SOCIETY AND THEIR

  • CIVILIZATION, BUT THIS KIND OF

  • POLITICAL NATIONALISM THAT

  • SOMETIMES FEELS A LITTLE BIT

  • ALMOST AGGRESSIVE TO THOSE ON

  • THE OUTSIDE -- THIS IS A

  • PHENOMENON THAT I THINK PEOPLE

  • ARE REALLY LOOKING AT WHEN THEY

  • TALK ABOUT NATIONALISM.

  • AND IT SEEMS TO BE ENCOURAGED BY

  • THE STATE, BUT ALSO EMBRACED BY

  • THE SOCIETY.

  • AND THAT, I THINK, IS WHY IT'S

  • SUCH A BIG ISSUE TODAY.

  • >> IS THIS INEVITABLY PART OF

  • THE STORY OF A RISING POWER, OR

  • DOES IT TEND TO BE?

  • >> I THINK IT IS TYPICAL OF

  • RISING POWERS THAT PEOPLE

  • LIVING WITHIN THEM AND ALSO

  • LEADERS IN THOSE COUNTRIES THINK

  • ABOUT, "WHAT IS OUR ROLE IN THE

  • WORLD?" AND "HOW IS OUR ROLE IN

  • THE WORLD CHANGING?"

  • BUT I THINK CHINA IS ALSO

  • PARTICULARLY INCLINED TO THIS

  • KIND OF THINKING, BECAUSE RECENT

  • CHINESE HISTORY HAS REALLY

  • TRAVELED FROM A POSITION OF --

  • NOT GLOBAL LEADERSHIP, BECAUSE

  • BACK IN THE 19th CENTURY AND

  • BEFORE, THERE WASN'T A REAL

  • GLOBAL CONSCIOUSNESS, BUT

  • CERTAINLY REGIONAL LEADERSHIP.

  • FOR CENTURIES, CHINA WAS THE

  • LEADER OF THE EAST ASIAN REGION,

  • AND THE DOMINANT CIVILIZATION

  • AND CULTURE WAS THE ONE THAT WAS

  • REALLY CENTERED ON THE HEARTLAND

  • OF TODAY'S CHINA, AND THEN

  • BETWEEN ABOUT 1850 AND 1950,

  • CHINA WENT INTO THIS DEEP

  • RETREAT FROM REGIONAL AND

  • INTERNATIONAL POWER AND FELL

  • INTO HARD TIMES DOMESTICALLY,

  • CAME UNDER PRESSURE FROM THE

  • OUTSIDE.

  • THERE WERE CIVIL WARS,

  • THERE WERE REBELLIONS, THERE

  • WERE FAMINES, THERE WERE EVERY

  • KIND OF CATASTROPHE, ENDING IN A

  • CIVIL WAR AND REVOLUTION THAT

  • GAVE RISE TO THE CHINA WE KNOW

  • TODAY.

  • SO I THINK THIS TRAJECTORY OF

  • GREATNESS TO NEAR-COLLAPSE AND

  • THEN THE PROMISE THAT CHINA

  • MIGHT BE RETURNING TO GREATNESS

  • AGAIN, OR, IN FACT, THAT IT IS

  • RETURNING AND, IN SOME WAYS, HAS

  • ALREADY ACHIEVED THE STATUS OF

  • A GREAT POWER -- THIS IS, I

  • THINK, A DRIVER OF A LOT OF THE

  • CONTEMPLATION AND CONSIDERATION

  • WITHIN CHINESE SOCIETY OF, "WHAT

  • IS CHINA'S APPROPRIATE ROLE?"

  • WHERE ARE WE GOING?" AND MAYBE

  • MOST IMPORTANTLY, "WHO NEEDS TO

  • MOVE ASIDE TO MAKE ROOM FOR A

  • RESURGENT CHINESE CIVILIZATION?"

  • >> HOW DOES THIS INCREASING

  • NATIONALISM MANIFEST ITSELF?

  • YOU HEAR ANECDOTES ABOUT PEOPLE

  • AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL WHO

  • SOMETIMES GET INTO TENSE

  • SITUATIONS WHEN THEY'RE VISITING

  • CHINA, ESPECIALLY IF THEY'RE

  • OUT AT NIGHT IN CLUBS AND THINGS

  • LIKE THAT.

  • AND THEN THERE SEEMS TO BE THIS

  • AGGRESSIVENESS -- OR SENSE OF

  • AGGRESSIVENESS, AS YOU TERMED

  • IT -- IN THE NATIONAL POSTURES

  • THAT THE COUNTRY TAKES FROM TIME

  • TO TIME.

  • >> I THINK THE MOST VISIBLE

  • MANIFESTATION OF CHINESE

  • NATIONALISM IS ACTUALLY IN

  • PUBLIC DISCOURSE, PRIMARILY ON

  • ELECTRONIC MEDIA.

  • ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S REALLY

  • INTERESTING ABOUT THE PEOPLE'S

  • REPUBLIC OF CHINA TODAY IS THAT

  • THE MEDIA IS VERY TIGHTLY

  • CONTROLLED, RIGHT?

  • ALL OF THE TELEVISION, YOU KNOW,

  • BROADCAST AND PRINT MEDIA, IS TO

  • SOME EXTENT OR ANOTHER EITHER

  • CONTROLLED OR VERY HEAVILY

  • INFLUENCED BY THE STATE.

  • AND THEN THERE IS ALSO SOCIAL

  • MEDIA WHERE ORDINARY CITIZENS

  • CAN PARTICIPATE AND CAN SAY

  • THEIR PIECE.

  • BUT WHAT WE FIND IS THAT EVEN IN

  • SOCIAL MEDIA, CERTAIN KINDS OF

  • TOPICS ARE CONSTRAINED AND

  • CERTAIN KINDS OF CONVERSATIONS

  • JUST DISAPPEAR FROM THE CHINESE

  • INTERNET OR FROM CHINA'S

  • EQUIVALENT OF TWITTER, WHICH IS

  • CALLED WEIBO, AND OTHERS DON'T.