Placeholder Image

Subtitles section Play video

  • MATTHEW WALKER: It's a pleasure to be here.

  • And I want to start with a standard disclaimer, which is

  • that when most speakers look to their audience and they see

  • people who are falling asleep or nodding off, it can be

  • profoundly disheartening.

  • However, based on the topic of today's presentation, I'm

  • almost going to actively encourage that kind of

  • behavior from you.

  • In fact, knowing what I know particularly about the

  • relationship between sleep and memory, it's actually the

  • greatest form of flattery for me to see people like you not

  • being able to resist the urge to strengthen what I'm telling

  • you by falling asleep.

  • So feel free just to sort of ebb and flow in and out of

  • consciousness throughout the entire talk.

  • I'll take absolutely no offense.

  • And the talk itself is really going to come in at four main

  • acts, so to speak.

  • Firstly, I want to spend some time telling you about what

  • sleep actually is, the different types, it's

  • characteristics, its structure.

  • And then after that, I'll tell you about the variety of

  • different functions, plural, that we're starting to

  • understand that sleep serves.

  • So I'll tell you about the role of sleep in promoting

  • learning and also memory.

  • But I'll also then tell you how sleep can go beyond simply

  • manipulating individual memories.

  • Sleep seems to be intelligent in that it can cross-link new

  • pieces of information together so you can come up with

  • creative, novel insights the next day.

  • And then finally, I'll describe a role of sleep

  • beyond information processing into your mental health and

  • how sleep seems to be critical for emotional regulation,

  • preparing specific brain circuits for next day social

  • and emotional interactions.

  • So that's the basic overview.

  • Coming on to what sleep is, and I do love this picture.

  • You can just kind of get a sense of the quality and the

  • depth of sleep that's happening there.

  • If we're going on that whole savanna grasslands kind of

  • side street by the way, I just want to come

  • onto this, the giraffe.

  • Firstly, what a strange morphology for a creature.

  • Have you ever wondered how something that

  • looks like that sleeps?

  • Would you like to know how a giraffe sleeps?

  • That's how a giraffe sleeps.

  • Isn't that remarkable.

  • And it tells us at least two things.

  • Firstly, despite such bizarre anatomy, sleep will still find

  • a way to be obtained by the brain.

  • Second, and more generally, in every species that we've

  • studied to date, sleep, or something that looks very much

  • like it, has been observed.

  • What that means is that sleep has fought its way through

  • vehemently every step along the evolutionary pathway.

  • If that's true, sleep must be essential at some of the most

  • basic of biological levels.

  • And that's exactly what we're starting to discover.

  • And sleep in terms of mammalian species at least has

  • been broadly separated into two main types, as

  • some of you may know.

  • On the one hand, we have non-rapid eye movement sleep

  • or non-REM sleep for short.

  • And non-REM sleep has been further subdivided into four

  • separate stages, unimaginatively called stages

  • 1 through 4--

  • increasing in their depth of sleep--

  • or a creative bunch of sleep researchers.

  • So increasing in the depth of sleep, stages 3 and 4 are

  • those really deep stages of dreamless sleep.

  • And they're often grouped together under the term

  • slow-wave sleep.

  • Why?

  • Because of these slow, lazy brain waves that happen during

  • the stage of sleep that we measure with

  • electrodes on the head.

  • But don't be fooled.

  • That's not that your brain is dormant by any stretch of the

  • imagination.

  • What it means is that vast portions of your brain,

  • hundreds of thousands of neurons, have all decided to

  • synchronize together and sing together in time.

  • It's a phenomena like no other brain state that we know of.

  • It doesn't happen whilst you're awake.

  • It's a strange phenomena and we still don't truly

  • understand why.

  • On the other hand, we have rapid eye movement sleep or

  • REM sleep named, not after the popular Michael Stipe pop

  • band, but because of these bizarre, horizontal, shuttling

  • eye movements that occur during this stage of sleep.

  • And again, we don't truly understand why your eyes move

  • during that stage of sleep.

  • And it turns out that these two types of sleep, REM and

  • non-REM, will play out in a battle for brain domination

  • throughout the night.

  • And that sort of cerebral war is going to be won and lost

  • every 90 minutes and replayed every 90 minutes.

  • And what that creates is a standard architecture of

  • sleep, what we call a sleep cycle.

  • So I'll just unpack this for you here.

  • We've got the different stages of sleep on the vertical axis.

  • And then time of night along the horizontal axis.

  • And I'll speed this up for you.

  • But what you can see is that upon falling asleep, your

  • brain goes on this delightful roller coaster ride in and out

  • of these different stages of sleep.

  • So you'll quickly descend down into the deep stages of

  • non-REM sleep, 3 and 4.

  • And you'll stay there for a while.

  • And then after about 70 or 80 minutes, you'll start to rise

  • back up and you'll pop up and have a short REM sleep period,

  • here in red.

  • And then back down you go again, down into non-REM sleep

  • and then up into REM.

  • As I said, this cycle is 90 minutes, non-REM through REM.

  • And that's stable across the night.

  • However, what changes is the ratio of non-REM to REM within

  • that 90-minute window as you move across the night, such

  • that in the first half of the night the majority of those

  • 90-minute cycles are comprised of deep non-REM sleep,

  • slow-wave sleep.

  • Whereas as you push through to the second half of the night,

  • now that ratio balance shifts across.

  • And instead, they're dominated much more by rapid eye

  • movement sleep, as well as that lighter form of

  • non-dreaming sleep, stage 2 non-REM sleep.

  • And just to come back to REM sleep, REM sleep is the

  • principal stage during which your brain dreams.

  • And REM sleep is a case of essentially how your brain

  • goes completely out of its mind.

  • Because every one here, as long as you slept last night,

  • you became flagrantly psychotic.

  • Now before you reject my diagnosis of a nightly

  • psychosis, let me give you five good reasons.

  • Because last night when you were in REM sleep and you were

  • dreaming, you started to see things which were not there.

  • So you were hallucinating.

  • Secondly, you believed things that

  • couldn't possibly be true.

  • So you were delusional.

  • Third, you became confused about time, place, and person.

  • So you're suffering from disorientation.

  • Fourth, you had wildly fluctuating emotions.

  • Something that psychiatrists call being affectively labile.

  • And then how wonderful, you woke up this morning and you

  • forgot most, if not all, of that dream experience.

  • So you're suffering from amnesia.

  • If you were to experience any one of those five symptoms

  • whilst you're awake, you would be

  • seeking psychiatric treatment.

  • Yet for reasons again that we don't fully understand, it

  • seems to be both a normal biological and

  • psychological process.

  • One of the other fascinating features of REM

  • sleep is this, paralysis.

  • All of you, when you went into REM sleep

  • last night, were paralyzed.

  • It turns out that there's mechanism deep down here in

  • your brain stem-- so here we have the brain, which as Woody

  • Allen suggested, was his second most favorite

  • organ of the body.

  • And so here's the front of the brain, back of the brain,

  • brain stem down here.

  • Now, this war of REM and non-REM sleep essentially

  • plays out down here.

  • And then is beamed up to the top of the wrinkled mass, atop

  • of the brain, called the cortex.

  • But there's also another signal that goes south, down

  • into the spinal cord.

  • And this signal during REM sleep that goes south

  • essentially inhibits what we call the alpha motor neurons

  • in your spinal cord.

  • They control all of your voluntary skeletal muscles.

  • So ensuring REM sleep, your brain paralyzes your body so

  • your mind can dream safely.

  • It's a bad evolutionary design when you're not perceiving

  • your outside world to start acting out all

  • of those dream commands.

  • And there are plenty of them.

  • Just as a quick aside on this process note by the way,

  • sometimes this persists despite you waking up.

  • Some of you may have experienced this, this

  • persistence of sleep paralysis on awakening.

  • It's quite unusual--

  • well, it's not unusual proportional wise.

  • About 25% of the population will experience this.

  • It's about as common as hiccups.

  • And what seems to happen is that your brain starts to wake

  • up, but the paralysis isn't released from the body.

  • So you start to become aware.

  • But you can't lift your eyelids, voluntary muscles.

  • You can't move.

  • You can't say anything.

  • It is often associated with a sense of sort of anxiety, a

  • sense of someone else being there in the room.

  • It turns out that this sleep paralysis, this persistence,

  • accurately explains most, if not all, of

  • so-called alien adoptions.

  • I mean when was the last time you ever heard of someone

  • being abducted during the day, in the middle of a meeting?

  • You know.

  • I mean--

  • whoosh, what was that?

  • Well I believe Jimmy just got abducted by aliens.

  • No, it never happens like that.

  • It's usually at night, when you're in bed.

  • People describe a sense of a presence in the room, that you

  • were paralyzed by these other agents.

  • You couldn't move.

  • You couldn't fight back.

  • You couldn't talk.

  • It's a strange interesting feature.

  • That's a little bit about what sleep is, together

  • with some odd sides.

  • I don't quite know I threw that in there.

  • But anyway, let's now come onto what sleep is doing.

  • And it is serving a whole broad array of functions.

  • Firstly, let me tell you why it's essential to sleep before

  • learning, to prepare your brain, almost like a dry

  • sponge, ready to soak up new information the next day.

  • And to sort of test this question, we're going to run

  • an experiment.

  • Essentially, is pulling the all-nighter a good idea?

  • Here's how you do this.

  • You take two groups of participants.

  • You assign them to a sleep group or a

  • sleep deprivation group.

  • Both are awake across the first day.

  • But then across the following night, those in the

  • deprivation group, we keep them awake in the laboratory

  • under full supervision.

  • They can't fall asleep.

  • The sleep group they get a full eight hours.

  • Both of them are awake across the second day.

  • And then we have them try and cram a whole bunch of facts

  • into their brain.

  • And then we're going to test them to see how efficient that

  • learning has been.

  • But instead of testing them immediately after learning, we

  • actually wait until two full recovery nights of sleep

  • before we test them.

  • So that any measure of memory that we get is not confounded

  • by them simply being too sleepy or inattentive to

  • recollect what they've learned.

  • And that's what you're looking at here on the vertical axis,

  • the efficiency of learning.

  • So the higher up you are, the better you are.

  • And if you put those two groups head to head, what you

  • find is that under conditions of sleep deprivation, there is

  • a quite profound 40% deficit in the capacity of your brain

  • to make new memories, to be able to create new

  • experiences.

  • And this should perhaps be little concerning considering

  • what we know is happening to sleep in our educational

  • populations.

  • If you want to put this in context, it's simply the

  • difference between acing the exam and failing it miserably.

  • Now, of course these are just performance data.

  • We don't know what's going on inside the brain.

  • So to answer that question, we've repeated these

  • experiments.

  • But now, during that attempted learning, subjects are

  • actually inside an MRI scanner as we're taking snapshots of

  • brain activity to see which parts of the brain are

  • switching on or not switching on.

  • So you get these attempted maps of learning in the sleep

  • group and in the sleep deprivation group.

  • And then you simply subtract one from the other to see what

  • the difference is.

  • And when you do that subtraction, you find a highly

  • selective, but highly significant impairment in this

  • part of the brain here.

  • It's a structure called the hippocampus that I'm

  • circling for you.

  • So just to orient you for those not familiar with MRI

  • images, it's as if I've sliced through the

  • brain from ear to ear.

  • And you're looking in from the front, top of the brain,

  • bottom of the brain, left and right side.

  • And I'm circling for you the hippocampus here.

  • You have one on the left and one on the right.

  • And these cool, blue blobs demonstrate that this part of

  • the brain was significantly impaired in those people who

  • were sleep deprived compared to a nice, strong signal

  • coming from that part of the brain in those people who had

  • had a good night of sleep.

  • Why is this important?

  • Well, it turns out that this structure, the hippocampus, is

  • the quintessential reservoir for where your brain creates

  • new memories.

  • In fact if you want to know what life is like without a

  • functioning hippocampus, just watch the movie "Memento." I'm

  • sure many of you have seen this film.

  • If you haven't, watch it, it's a great film.

  • And I won't spoil it for you.

  • But essentially, this gentleman

  • has some brain damage.

  • And from that point forward, he can no longer

  • make any new memories.

  • He is densely amnesic.

  • The part of his brain was damaged was this structure,

  • the hippocampus.

  • It is the very same structure that sleep deprivation seems

  • to selectively attack and block your brain's capacity

  • for efficient learning.

  • Let me just go back to these data because there's an

  • unresolved question here.

  • That was the bad that happens when you don't get sleep.

  • What's going on in those people who are getting sleep?

  • In other words, what is it about the sleep that they're

  • getting, the physiology of their sleep, that seems to be

  • promoting the restoration of memory?

  • And what we've been finding is that there are specific

  • electrical brainwave patterns that are promoting this memory

  • restoration.

  • And they're coming from non-rapid eye movement sleep.

  • And they're these delightful little chaps.

  • They're called sleep spindles.

  • These are short, synchronous bursts of electrical activity

  • in the EEG, the electroencephalogram.

  • They last for about one second of time.

  • So you're going along, brrrrrrr, that's

  • the burst of activity.

  • Your brain doesn't make that sound, of course.

  • That would just be strange.

  • But they're these sort of champagne cork, synchronous

  • bursts of activity.

  • And we believe that they form part of a broad network that

  • promotes the transformation or the translocation of memories

  • from one location in the brain to another.

  • And you can think of the USB, since I'm at Google, in a

  • crass analogy, like a USB hippocampus stick.

  • It's very good grabbing information somewhat quickly,

  • but it has a limited storage capacity.

  • And we believe that these spindles are helping promote

  • the transfer from that hippocampus USB stick, up into

  • that folded mass, the cortex, essentially, in terms of the

  • analogy, the hard drive, the mass storage

  • capacity of the system.

  • And by promoting that real estate transaction, that

  • shifting of geography of information within the brain,

  • not only do you take previous memories and make them safe,

  • put them onto the hard drive, you clear out the USB stick in

  • terms of its memory capacity.

  • So when you wake up the next day, you're freely able to

  • start loading up new information again.

  • Because what we find is that the more of these sleep

  • spindles that you have, the greater the degree of

  • restoration of your learning capacity the next day.

  • So each of these dots represents an individual

  • participant.

  • The more of those spindles that you have, the greater the

  • degree of memory return in terms of capacity for learning

  • that you get the next day.

  • So we're starting to understand not just the bad,

  • when you don't get sleep, but exactly what it is in terms of

  • the good, when you do get sleep, that promotes these

  • cognitive benefits.

  • It turns out that it's not just sufficient for you to

  • sleep before learning.

  • You also need to sleep after learning to essentially cement

  • that new information into the neural architecture of the

  • brain and make it less vulnerable to being forgotten.

  • So it's essentially like hitting the save button.

  • It just takes a lot longer organically within the brain

  • to do that.

  • And there's now good evidence that following that type of a

  • learning scenario, you do need sleep to hit that save button

  • so that you get that improved recollection

  • the following day.

  • And for fact-based memories, what you would think of as

  • textbook-like memory, that seems to require, in terms of

  • sleep, deep sleep, stages 3 and 4, or that slow-wave sleep

  • that I described.

  • So there's lots of good evidence of the past sort of

  • 15 or 20 years that this is the case,

  • correlational evidence.

  • But of course, what you tend to want in science is a causal

  • demonstration.

  • So the question is if you can increase the amount or the

  • quality of your deep slow-wave sleep, presumably you could

  • boost the amount of memory benefit that

  • that sleep is providing.

  • The question of course becomes how do you boost the quality

  • of your slow-wave sleep?

  • Well, there are a variety of different ways.

  • But of course, your favorite and my favorite that would be

  • this, direct current brain stimulation.

  • Have you seen those adverts late night on television where

  • they say don't try this at home?

  • This is one of those.

  • This is not car battery and a couple of electrodes, OK.

  • Although that would be an interesting experiment.

  • Just imagine--

  • I'm just picturing someone tucking themselves into bed at

  • night, with a bed partner.

  • Good night, honey.

  • And you're playing these electrodes.

  • She says, what are you doing?

  • Don't worry about me.

  • I'm just boosting my sleep.

  • So you can inject essentially a small amount of voltage.

  • And I'll just show you.

  • They're clinically approved.

  • This is what it looks like.

  • You inject a small amount of voltage into the brain.

  • Now, it's so small that you don't even feel it.

  • That's how tiny it is.

  • But it is physiologically efficacious.

  • And the idea here is that you've going to try and pulse

  • in time with the brain during those slow brain waves, OK.

  • And you're going to try and boost the amplitude, the size

  • of those slow waves, on the sea of your brain's cortex.

  • And by boosting that quality of that deep sleep, what

  • happens to memory?

  • So you're going to be applying it during that

  • deep, slow-wave sleep.

  • You've sort of singing in time with the brain.

  • And there are two groups in this experiment.

  • Both groups get all of the equipment

  • applied to their head.

  • One of them doesn't get any stimulation

  • during sleep, however.

  • The other does get simulation.

  • And here's how the experiment works.

  • Here's the mock stimulation group, so the

  • placebo as it were.

  • They're going to study a whole list of facts

  • before going to bed.

  • Then you can briefly test them to see what their

  • retention is like.

  • Then after a night of sleep, the next morning you test them

  • again to see how well their brain has retained the

  • information following sleep.

  • In the other group, the experimental group, this is

  • where we're going to stimulate the brain activity.

  • We're going to juice it up and see if you can

  • sort of enhance it.

  • This is great study done by a German group a few years ago.

  • The question is what happens in terms

  • of the memory benefit?

  • Well, if you look at the group that slept but didn't get

  • simulation, we see the nice, normal memory retention

  • benefit across sleep, replicating what we've seen

  • many times before.

  • In the group that gets the stimulation, you almost double

  • the amount of memory benefit that you get by way of sleep,

  • a causal demonstration that when you manipulate sleep,

  • your manipulate memory.

  • One of the depressing things, however, unfortunately, is

  • some evidence that we recently published just a few months

  • ago, looking at the interaction between sleep and

  • memory as you're getting older.

  • Which for me, seems to be rather rapid.

  • And what we know certainly, and of course everyone knows,

  • is that as you get older, your capacity for learning and

  • memory starts to deteriorate.

  • But one of the quintessential physiological hallmarks of

  • aging is that your sleep starts to deteriorate.

  • And it's not all types of sleep homogeneously.

  • Some types of sleep get hit by the aging process far more

  • severely than others.

  • The type that gets hit most severely is that deep,

  • slow-wave sleep.

  • And so the question was whether or not these factors

  • are simply co-occuring or actually closely related?

  • In fact, we demonstrated that they are significantly

  • interrelated.

  • And this pernicious drop in deep sleep by over about 70%

  • accurately accounts for about 50% of the forgetting that

  • happens with age.

  • These are huge numbers.

  • So there's a suggestion here that disrupted sleep is an

  • underappreciated factor that may contribute to what we

  • called cognitive decline in aging.

  • The exciting silver lining part to that cloud, however,

  • is that it's a potentially treatable target.

  • So we're now trying to see if we can use these types of

  • methods to restore some quality of sleep in aging and

  • see if as a consequence, we can give

  • back some memory function.

  • As it happens, it's not just sleep after learning to

  • strengthen individual memories.

  • Because we've been recently finding that sleep can go far

  • beyond individual memories.

  • Sleep can actually seemingly cross-link vast sets of

  • information, and from that abstract understanding, and

  • even develop creative insights and ideas from that

  • information processing en mass.

  • Let me show you an example of this.

  • Here, in this study, you're going to be, as the subject,

  • performing what's called the numeric number reduction task.

  • It's the type of test that psychologists love to

  • administer and participants hate to perform.

  • What you're going to do is see lots and lots of

  • these number strings.

  • And you're going to have to work through them to come up

  • with a final end solution.

  • Now, one way that you can work through these problems is by

  • using some rules that I'll give you.

  • The first thing you can see is that there are only three

  • numbers here that make up this string, 1, 4, and 9.

  • And this is common.

  • Thought that the numbers are the same.

  • But this notion that there's only ever three numbers in a

  • string set.

  • That's common.

  • And here's what you're going to do.

  • You're going to take the first number, compare it to the next

  • number, and the first rule is this.

  • If this number is the same as the next number, write down

  • the very same number, which it is in this case, a 1,

  • Now, you've got the 1.

  • Compare it to the next number in the line.

  • Is it the same number?

  • If it is, write down the same number.

  • Well, it's not.

  • And here's the second rule.

  • If it's a different number, write down the only other

  • remaining number in the string, which would be a 9.

  • So let's repeat that again.

  • You can take the 9, compare it to a 4.

  • Same or different?

  • It's different.

  • Write down the only other remaining number, a 1.

  • 1 to a 9, different.

  • Write down 4.

  • 4 to 4, it's the same number.

  • So write down the same number, 4 to a 9, 1.

  • 1 to a 9.

  • Oh, my goodness, is it boring and laborious.

  • Now it turns out, and this is exactly how the experiment

  • works, if you paid attention to what I said, I told you one

  • way to solve these problems is by using those rules.

  • Because it turns out there's another way.

  • There is a hidden rule.

  • There is a shortcut.

  • There's a cheat.

  • And if you figure it out, you can blow through many more of

  • these problems.

  • And here's the cheat.

  • The second number that you produce in the string is

  • always the final answer.

  • And so whilst this is different across all the

  • problems in terms of the number, the overarching rule,

  • the commonality across this

  • informational set, is the same.

  • So here's what we're going to do.

  • We're going to expose a whole collection of participants to

  • these problems.

  • Then 12 hours later, you're going to bring them back and

  • expose them to some more problems.

  • And at that 12 hour delay point, you're then going to

  • see what proportion of those participants have developed

  • insight into that hidden rule.

  • Half of those participants are going to remain

  • awake across the day.

  • Expose them to problems in the morning,

  • reexpose them in the evening.

  • The other half, they're exposed in the evening.

  • They reexpose in the morning to the problems.

  • And therefore, they've had a full eight-hour night of sleep

  • in between.

  • So the brain has had equal amounts of opportunity time to

  • distill that informational set and see if it can

  • find out the solution.

  • The only difference is that one group has had sleep.

  • The other hasn't.

  • And we're going to put sort of wake and sleep, head to head

  • in this Coke-Pepsi challenge to see which one wins out.

  • And so here's our outcome metric, the proportion of

  • participants in each of those two groups that gained that

  • knowledge, that creative insight.

  • In the group that remained awake across the day, less

  • than 25% of those participants developed that

  • hidden insight knowledge.

  • What about the sleep group, worse, the same, better?

  • Well, of course they were better.

  • But what was shocking was how much better.

  • This was how much better after sleep.

  • Over 60% of participants, having slept, developed

  • insight into that hidden rule.

  • And what we've been finding--

  • what I should say is it's almost as though sleep, there

  • is an algorithm in sleep that takes vast informational sets

  • and starts to try and understand the statistical

  • regularities and the rules of those mass data sets.

  • It's a huge distillation.

  • It's a collision of information, creative

  • information processing.

  • And we're finding that some, not all, but some of these

  • types of associative memory processing occurs during rapid

  • eye movement sleep, dreaming sleep.

  • And I believe that it's probably not a coincidence

  • that this is the stage from which we dream.

  • If dreaming is a reflection of whatever information

  • processing is going on with the brain, then it may be this

  • hypersensitive, hypercreative creative, hyperassociative

  • processing that's going on, that leads to

  • these creative insights.

  • As an aside, many people, when I present this evidence to

  • them, will say well, aren't there those sort of creative

  • genius types in history who were supposed not

  • to sleep very much?

  • One of them that's often quoted

  • to me is this gentleman.

  • Does anybody know who this is?

  • AUDIENCE: Edison.

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Edison, exactly.

  • What he's holding is a bit of a giveaway.

  • A brilliant man of course, supposed

  • to be a short sleeper.

  • Now, of course, we'll never truly know if he was a short

  • sleeper or not.

  • But even if he was a short sleeper, it turns out that

  • Thomas Edison was a habitual napper during the day.

  • Here he is after a pretty good garden party it looks like.

  • Here he is on his inventor's bench taking a nap.

  • In fact, Edison understood the creative brilliance of sleep

  • and he used it as a tool.

  • Here's what he would do.

  • He would take a metal saucepan,

  • like this behind him.

  • He would turn it upside down and rest it underneath the

  • armrest of his chair.

  • Then he would take two steel ball bearings in his hand,

  • rest the back of his arm on the chair.

  • Take a pad of paper and a pencil, put it next

  • to him on his desk.

  • And then slowly relax back and fall asleep.

  • And so he didn't sleep too long.

  • What would happen is that his muscle tone would relax.

  • He would release the steel ball bearings.

  • They would crash on the saucepan underneath

  • him, wake him up.

  • And then he would write down all of the ideas that he was

  • having from his sleep.

  • Isn't that brilliant?

  • What a guy.

  • So no wonder you're never told you should really stay awake

  • on a problem.

  • Nobody tells you that.

  • Instead that they tell you to sleep on a problem.

  • And we're starting to find scientific evidence that

  • rigorously backs that up.

  • It turns out, and a friend and a colleague told me this, that

  • this phrase of "sleeping on a problem" seems to be common in

  • most all languages that he's explored to date.

  • What that means is that this phenomenon seems to transcend

  • cultural boundaries.

  • And I should also note that it probably says a lot about the

  • difference between me as a British gentleman and our arch

  • rivals, the French.

  • Because the French translation it turns out of this,

  • essentially is not sleeping on a problem.

  • It's that you sleep with a problem.

  • British, you sleep on a problem.

  • French you sleep with a problem.

  • And it turns out that the politics, the people in

  • politics, reflect this.

  • If you look at the past president Mr. Sarkozy and Mrs.

  • Sarkozy, these are the press release

  • pictures that they offer.

  • She's draped on a bed.

  • He's looking forlorn at her.

  • Whereas the people in British politics, who did we have?

  • Well, we had Margaret Thatcher.

  • We had sort of Tony Blair.

  • You sleep with a problem.

  • You sleep on a problem.

  • I'll say no more.

  • Before--

  • I'm probably never going to be able to go back to the UK now

  • after that.

  • Beyond information processing, of which now there is good

  • evidence for in terms of sleep dependency, we're now starting

  • to realize there's another brain function of sleep.

  • And that is in preparing the emotional circuits of the

  • brain, offering you stable mental health.

  • Now, I think many of us have a sense that these two factors

  • of sleep and emotion interact in some

  • meaningful kind of way.

  • An example would be a parent holding a child,

  • the child is crying.

  • And they look at you and they say well, you just didn't

  • sleep well last night.

  • As if there's some universal parental knowledge that bad

  • sleep the night before equals bad mood and emotion

  • reactivity the next day.

  • We also know clinically that these factors interact in that

  • nearly all psychiatric mood disorders display co-occurring

  • abnormalities of sleep.

  • In fact, these sleep abnormalities are so prominent

  • they form part of the diagnostic criteria for those

  • psychiatric disorders.

  • But despite that suggested interplay, we've known

  • remarkably little about the basic brain dynamics of this

  • relationship.

  • And that's something that we've also been testing.

  • When you think you've got two factors that are interacting,

  • one way to test that interaction is to manipulate

  • one of the factors and then observe what

  • happens to the other.

  • So here we're going to manipulate sleep and dial it

  • down again and block it with deprivation and see if as a

  • consequence, we can trigger an amplified emotional brain

  • reaction as a consequence.

  • So a very similar design to one I showed you before, a

  • sleep group and a deprivation group.

  • The deprivation group, we keep awake.

  • But then the next day, we put them inside the MRI scanner

  • and we perform an emotional challenge task with them.

  • And here we're going to show them a series of standardized

  • psychological picture slides that range in a gradient from

  • being emotionally neutral to increasingly negative and

  • unpleasant.

  • And I'm just showing you some examples here.

  • They get far worse than this, by the way.

  • They get pretty gruesome.

  • I don't show them.

  • There's probably reactive vomiting of lunch

  • in the front row.

  • But you get the idea.

  • What we can then do is ask a very simple question from our

  • experiments.

  • What in the brain shows increasing reactivity in

  • response to increasing emotional negativity?

  • And the structure that we were focusing on here was this

  • structure in the brain, here in red.

  • It's a structure called the amygdala.

  • It's very deep within your brain.

  • You have one on the left and the right.

  • And it's one of the centerpiece anatomical

  • features for emotion processing and reactivity.

  • And when we looked at this part of the brain in those

  • people who'd had a good night of sleep, there was a modest

  • degree of reaction in response to those negative experiences.

  • So again, a similar view that I described previously.

  • You're looking into the brain from the front, top and

  • bottom, left and right.

  • I'm circling the amygdala for you here.

  • And these hot spots demonstrate a modest reaction.

  • That's what you would want.

  • You don't want no reaction.

  • You don't want too much.

  • In the group who were sleep deprived, rather than seeing

  • impaired brain activity, which is what we'd seen with

  • learning and memory, when it comes to emotion you see

  • exactly the opposite.

  • In fact, here is the emotional brain was 60% more reactive in

  • response to those negative experiences compared to when

  • you'd had a good night of sleep.

  • And you can see that more clearly if you

  • just focus in here.

  • For us, the much more interesting

  • question though was why?

  • Why was your emotional brain so reactive without sleep?

  • And we performed some additional analyses.

  • And what we found is that in those people who had had a

  • good night of sleep, this part of the brain here in green,

  • it's a part that we call the frontal cortex and the middle

  • part of your frontal cortex.

  • The frontal cortex you can think of in terms of the

  • brain, it's like the CEO of the brain.

  • It's very good at making high-level executive

  • decisions, top-down control.

  • By the way, this view, it's as if now you're

  • looking from the side.

  • So this is the front of the brain, the back of the brain,

  • top and base.

  • And when a night of sleep, this part of the frontal

  • cortex was strongly connected to the amygdala, believed to

  • send inhibitory, regulatory control.

  • So with a night of sleep, you had this nice, balanced mix

  • between the emotional gas pedal and the brake.

  • Without sleep, unfortunately, what we found is that

  • connection had been severed.

  • And as a consequence, you've got this amplified, almost

  • Neanderthal-like emotional reaction as a consequence.

  • So now without sleep, it's as though you're all

  • gas pedal and brake.

  • You're all amygdala and too little frontal lobe

  • control as it were.

  • Now, I could go on and show you more bar graphs and MRI

  • images to illustrate these effects.

  • But I'm actually going to let a sleep deprived subject do

  • that for me.

  • Because it turns out that we do video diaries with our

  • sleep deprived participants throughout the period.

  • And I think at this point, we may want to just close down

  • the have video feeds just to not present particular people.

  • It's fine for the audience here.

  • So in summary then in terms of the talk and answer to the

  • question why does my brain sleep, well it sleeps for a

  • whole constellation of different functions, plural.

  • It seems to promote emotional regulation, learning, memory,

  • creativity.

  • And I should also say that I didn't mention

  • anything about the body.

  • But sleep has huge impacts on body systems.

  • It's essential for metabolic control, cardiovascular

  • health, for your immunity.

  • In fact, there is not one single tissue that we have yet

  • to find that isn't beneficiary affected by sleep.

  • So I think my advice would be that the single most effective

  • thing that you can do each and every day to reset your brain

  • and body health is sleep.

  • And I should finish there.

  • I should thank all of my lab members.

  • I actually don't do any hard work.

  • I just drink tea.

  • I write lots of emails.

  • They do all of the hard work.

  • And then I come and give talks like this and pretend that the

  • data is my own.

  • It's not at all.

  • And I'm immensely grateful for all of their dedicated hard

  • work and brilliance.

  • And finally, I noticed some of you stayed

  • awake during this talk.

  • So tonight, after all of this information.

  • I hope you sleep well.

  • Thanks very much indeed.

  • CHRIS: All right.

  • Matt has agreed to take some questions.

  • I think we don't have a microphone up.

  • MATTHEW WALKER: I'll repeat the questions.

  • CHRIS: You have to repeat it.

  • Or we actually have--

  • I'd like to welcome back, Sina.

  • Come on up.

  • Sina, from SWAN Solutions.

  • For those of you who where at the Sleep-posium a few months

  • ago now, Sina was the MC back then.

  • And we're going to welcome him back to MC again today.

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Hello.

  • SINA NADER: It's good to meet you.

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Good to you meet you, too.

  • SINA NADER: Thank you, Chris.

  • And thank you all for joining us.

  • So we'd like to open it up to questions.

  • Yes, please go ahead?

  • So I'll just repeat the question real quick, about

  • bimodal sleep and maybe polyphasic sleep and any kind

  • of information on that?

  • So Dr. Walker.

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yes.

  • So it's an interesting question.

  • There is sort of this first sleep and second sleep.

  • The evidence for that I don't think yet is robust.

  • The idea, however, that we should be sleeping

  • biphasically, rather than monophasically, what I mean by

  • that is right now most of us sleep monophasically, one

  • large bout during the night.

  • If you look at some cultures that are not touched by

  • electricity, by some of the devices of Edison, what you

  • see is that some of them will sleep biphasically.

  • They'll sleep about 6 and 1/2 hours at night and then have

  • that siesta-like afternoon nap.

  • And it turns out that if you look at people's physiology

  • and their alertness physiology, in the afternoons,

  • right around this time now, there is a physiologically

  • measurable dip in your arousal.

  • It's that sort of afternoon meeting around the table and

  • everyone sort of doing those head--

  • those really ugly things.

  • They're not listening to good music.

  • It's that they're falling asleep.

  • And it's because of this drop.

  • Suggesting that in fact we may be biologically preprogrammed

  • to have this sort of dip into that.

  • So I think right now, it's unclear.

  • What I can tell you is that we have also found a whole

  • collection of brain benefits by way of naps as well.

  • Sometimes naps can give as much benefit as a

  • whole night of sleep.

  • And it's not entirely clear why.

  • SINA NADER: Next question.

  • Yes, please?

  • So caffeine and sleeping pills, Dr. Walker?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: So caffeine can certainly mask some of the

  • effects of sleepiness.

  • The way caffeine works is that during the day whilst you're

  • awake, a chemical builds up in your brain.

  • That chemical is called adenosine.

  • Adenosine is there to tell your brain how long you've

  • been awake.

  • And when it gets up to a critical mass, you start to

  • feel sleepy.

  • That's how it works.

  • Caffeine comes in and blocks the receptors of adenosine and

  • fools your brain into thinking there is not as much adenosine

  • around anymore.

  • So you start to become alert.

  • However, caffeine can get you around some of the very

  • rudimentary impacts of insufficiency, like reaction

  • times for example.

  • You can speed back up with caffeine to a degree.

  • For these much more complex processes of brain plasticity

  • and emotional regulation, there caffeine doesn't seem to

  • be a sufficient substitute.

  • You can't get over it with caffeine.

  • In terms of sleep medications, it's a great question.

  • The older sleep medications, what we used to call the

  • sedative hypnotics, certainly you weren't awake when you

  • took those medications.

  • That's for sure.

  • That you were asleep is actually very difficult to

  • argue based on the physiology of the brain wave patterns.

  • Essentially, they just sedated you.

  • So the naturalistic sleep was I think highly arguable.

  • The more recent new-to-market medications are producing what

  • some have argued is more naturalistic sleep.

  • But it's still not necessarily purely naturalistic.

  • Some of those sleep medications, the common ones,

  • and I won't describe a particular target, particular

  • brand names, but the common ones that are prescribe right

  • now, they can impact the ratio and the quality of your

  • non-REM sleep.

  • So, for example, that you may not get the depth

  • of that deep sleep.

  • And you've seen the benefit of that depth of deep sleep.

  • It can change the quality and when your REM

  • sleep seems to arrive.

  • So again, I think thinking about those medications as

  • yes, I slept eight hours and yes, I don't remember waking

  • up so I must have had a good night of sleep, that may be a

  • fool's gold.

  • MALE VOICE: Question from VC.

  • SINA NADER: What's that?

  • Oh, OK.

  • Go ahead.

  • MALE VOICE: Do you have any data on the amount of sleep

  • needed to have these constantly good or optimal?

  • To little sleep, too much sleep, what it is the

  • boundaries?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yes.

  • So it's a good question about what is the optimal

  • sweet spot for sleep?

  • The answer to that question is a little difficult because it

  • will be different for every individual.

  • It's just like giving a calorie recommendation.

  • I can tell you that 2,000 calories a day is about the

  • right prescription for most individuals.

  • But for different people's physiology and their metabolic

  • demand, some people will need more or less.

  • And it's the same with sleep.

  • But what we've been finding is that once you start to get

  • less than seven hours of sleep, you can observe

  • measurable impairments.

  • One of the other dangers of that is that your subjective

  • opinion of how you're doing with insufficient sleep is a

  • miserable predictor of objectively how you actually

  • are doing when you've had insufficient sleep.

  • So people will say no, I can survive fine on six hours.

  • We said no, I know that you think you can survive fine.

  • But you can measure those changes.

  • You can see those impairments.

  • And they happen quite quickly.

  • One of the other interesting question is too much sleep.

  • And there has been some evidence in the literature

  • that once you start to get past nine or 10, things like

  • mortality and morbidity actually start to go back up

  • again in a way.

  • So it's sort of like this U-shaped function, that

  • there's a sweet spot in the middle around eight.

  • Anything to either side of that, maybe that's bad.

  • It's difficult because if you look at some of that data,

  • firstly it's not clear that it's just people staying in

  • bed longer from those surveys, rather than sleeping longer.

  • Secondly, one of the other theories is that sleep is so

  • essential for your body health, that if you look,

  • those people who are sleeping longer may actually be people

  • who are sick.

  • And the reason that they're sleeping longer is the body is

  • desperately trying to do what it does very well to get them

  • better, which is to sleep.

  • So I think some of that evidence about what's called

  • hypersomnia, sleeping too much, is still unclear.

  • It's not to say that too much sleep can be a bad thing.

  • I think it possibly could be, just like too much

  • weight is a bad thing.

  • It's about a natural balance between the two.

  • And it's about 1/3 to 2/3 in terms of the 24-hour period.

  • It's about eight hours is a good, sweet spot.

  • SINA NADER: All the way in the back there, please?

  • So the question was about the sleep spindle experiment and

  • the not so light exposure?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yes.

  • So for that stimulation experiment where they were

  • injecting the voltage, yes, you saw both an increase in

  • the quality of the deep sleep, and you can measure that

  • quality electrically.

  • And there was also an increase in the amount of spindles that

  • went along with it.

  • There weren't correlations reported between those two.

  • But both of those things, the deep sleep and the spindles,

  • where ratcheted up by that stimulation.

  • Light pulse frequency, I don't know if anyone's tried it yet.

  • But there was a recent report that used auditory

  • stimulation, rather than electrical stimulation.

  • And they were even able to use a subthreshold awakening

  • auditory stimulation to kind of almost entrain the brain

  • into greater rhythmic activity and increase the slow-wave

  • sleep and as a consequence increase the memory

  • performance too.

  • And there's other ways that you can do that too.

  • During learning when you're awake, you can pair the

  • specific material with certain perceptual cues like sound or

  • smells, like a rose odor.

  • If you puff back up the nose during deep sleep that same

  • rose odor, whilst they're sleeping, you reactivate the

  • memories and you boost the amount of

  • consolidation that you get.

  • There lots of ways you could manipulate it.

  • So I mean if you want to burn your incense whilst you're

  • learning, and then at night blaze a few more up, maybe

  • that would--

  • fire hazard actually.

  • That's probably a very--

  • don't do that, sorry.

  • That's a stupid idea-- but anyway.

  • SINA NADER: Fascinating stuff.

  • Next question, right here please?

  • Cognitive function, exercise, and sleep?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: So the interaction triad that you're

  • speaking about there, I don't know of any evidence that

  • people have done that particular experiment.

  • But certainly the first two factors is well known.

  • That exercise will improve the quality of your sleep.

  • It can increase the depth of that deep sleep.

  • So the argument would be that it should produce causal

  • memory benefits.

  • You have to be a little bit careful.

  • There's some argument that exercising too close to

  • bedtime stops you efficiently going to sleep.

  • The reason is because for you to initiate sleep, your brain

  • and your body have to drop by about 1 degree Celsius in

  • terms of core temperature to initiate that sleep.

  • That's why it's always easier to fall asleep in a room

  • that's too cold than that's too hot.

  • And because of that core increase due to the metabolic

  • expenditure from exercise, you can maintain that heat and you

  • don't fall asleep as well.

  • It's the reason by the way that baths, a warm bath works.

  • And it's for the exact opposite reasons that you

  • think it works.

  • You have a bath.

  • You feel oh, that's sort of nice, warm, and cozy,

  • I'll get into bed.

  • And you fall asleep more easily.

  • What happens is that when you come out of the bath, because

  • you've have what's called mass vasodilation dilation, all of

  • your capillaries have sort of expanded to try and get the

  • heat out of your body.

  • Then when you get out, you lose a massive amount of heat.

  • You get far more heat expenditure.

  • That heat expenditure helps you with that initiation,

  • dropping your core body temperature.

  • That's why you fall asleep easier.

  • SINA NADER: Questions?

  • Yes, please?

  • That's a wonderful question.

  • The question was is yawning contagious?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yes, yawning is contagious.

  • And you can even see cross-contagion,

  • cross-species contagion.

  • I'm not kidding you.

  • People have--

  • I don't if they've empirically studied But there's good

  • evidence that you can be staring at your

  • dog and you can yawn.

  • And then what happens is that your dog

  • starts to yawn in addition.

  • So that does seem to be.

  • And that seems to be perhaps not

  • necessarily related to sleep.

  • But there's something called a mirror

  • system within the brain.

  • That the brain seems to have this capacity to understand

  • and even mirror what's going on in other people.

  • It's that same reason that if you see someone closing a door

  • and their fingers are going to get trapped in the door, you

  • instantly go-- hsst.

  • Why did you do that?

  • Your hand is not going to get trapped in the door.

  • It's because you have this mirror system.

  • It's a very clever system in the brain.

  • It allows you almost this insight into how

  • other people are.

  • And that same system can create these types of

  • contagions and yawning is one of them.

  • SINA NADER: Next question?

  • Yes, please?

  • So the question was about marijuana and sleep?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah, it's a good question.

  • I've got no idea obviously why you're asking that.

  • And I don't know of good evidence right now to examine

  • the systematic changes on sleep and how it influences

  • things like learning and memory and cognition.

  • It certainly does seem to disrupt

  • some features of sleep.

  • There are some reports of alterations in rapid eye

  • movement sleep.

  • What I can speak to much more so though is alcohol, which is

  • far more frequently used.

  • Alcohol, you're absolutely right, it is a potent

  • suppressor of REM sleep.

  • And it's one of the reasons that people will describe to

  • you, saying well, I've had a bit too much to drink and then

  • I was having these really strange

  • dreams the next morning.

  • Here's how it works.

  • It's actually not alcohol.

  • It's the metabolic byproduct of alcohol, the aldehydes and

  • the ketones.

  • And they will suppress REM sleep.

  • So you're going throughout the night and you've got all of

  • this drink in you system.

  • And your liver and your kidneys are desperately trying

  • to metabolize it, get it out of the system.

  • And what's happening is that you're not getting any REM

  • sleep because of the impairment.

  • But your brain is clever.

  • It keeps a clock count of how much REM sleep

  • you should have had.

  • And then when the alcohol is finally washed out of the

  • system, not only do you then have the REM sleep that you

  • were going to have, you also have that plus it tries to get

  • back some of the REM sleep that you missed.

  • Its called the REM sleep rebound effect.

  • And as a consequence, you get this really intense REM sleep

  • late morning.

  • With REM intense sleep, you get intense dreaming.

  • That seems to explain why.

  • SINA NADER: Next question?

  • Yes, please?

  • So a follow-up question on the electrostimulation question

  • and different effects it might have?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yes.

  • So I don't know yet of the electrical brain stimulation

  • and benefits downstairs, sort of south in the body.

  • But I can tell you the inverse of that question, which is if

  • you selectively deprive people of deep sleep, what are the

  • body consequences?

  • And they are significant.

  • You can manipulate.

  • And the way that you do this is whilst people are sleeping,

  • you play them just sort of tones, annoying tones.

  • Now, the tones aren't enough to make them fully wake up

  • because you dial the volume around.

  • But it keeps them out of deep sleep and keep

  • them in shallow sleep.

  • So you can remove the anxiety of waking them up.

  • You don't have to shake them or anything.

  • So it's a very clever manipulation where you can

  • selectively excise deep sleep.

  • As a consequence, you can disrupt metabolic regulation

  • profoundly.

  • In fact after a couple of nights of this, your capacity

  • to regulate your basic body glucose look so severe that

  • you'd be classified as prediabetic.

  • And you can do that even just with basic sleep disruption.

  • If I take you for five days and I let you only sleep for

  • five hours or four hours a night for five days, the same

  • metabolic profile of sort of

  • diabetic-like impairment happens.

  • You can see the same with immunity.

  • If I do the same thing, if I short-sleep you for five days,

  • your body's capacity to create an immune reaction to

  • something like the influenza A virus, the flu jab,

  • is dropped by 50%.

  • Your body's immunity is at half its capacity to mount a

  • response after short sleeping.

  • So there are profound impacts, not just on the brain, but

  • deep within the body by way of insufficient sleep or even

  • selective sleep disruption.

  • SINA NADER: Other questions?

  • Yes, please?

  • So the correlation between timing of sleep and learning?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah.

  • It's a very good question.

  • What we found for the most part is that as long as you

  • sleep that evening sometimes, even learning earlier during

  • the day will still be retained and saved.

  • And in some ways that make sense because you wouldn't

  • want to create a system of memory where only that which

  • you learned just in a few hours before sleep was going

  • to be retained by sleep.

  • The sleep system seems to have a capacity to absorb about 16

  • hours of the day's duration.

  • However, if you don't sleep that night after learning,

  • then I don't test you the next day.

  • I give you a recovery night of sleep on the next night and

  • even another recovery night of sleep and then test you, there

  • is no evidence of a memory consolidation benefit.

  • In other words, if you don't sleep in the first 24 hours

  • after learning, you lose the chance to

  • consolidate those memories.

  • So it is a time-sensitive feature.

  • But within the natural boundaries of how we normally

  • should be waking and sleeping, that seems to be fine.

  • SINA NADER: Right here.

  • Yes, please?

  • So I guess the timing of sleep onset?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah.

  • So that's a fantastic question.

  • I only know of one study out there.

  • We didn't do this.

  • But they looked at how regular or irregular your sleep was in

  • terms of onset and offset, which is just what you're

  • describing there.

  • And they found that, perhaps even more strongly or as

  • strongly as amount of sleep, was the instability of that

  • sleep predicted worse memory retention.

  • I believe it was actually in a very prominent university and

  • one of the hardest exams for that university, which is

  • organic chemistry.

  • And they found that less so than the lecture or the great

  • lecture notes, your sleep stability was a very

  • statistically strong predictor of how you were going

  • to do on that exam.

  • SINA NADER: I wish I would have known

  • that when I was taking--

  • OK.

  • Yes, please?

  • The question is about what state of sleep you wake up in,

  • and alarm clocks, and health?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah.

  • Again, I don't know of any systematic studies that have

  • tried to look at forced awakening by way of an alarm

  • clock versus naturalistic.

  • The alarm clock, from sort of an anthropological

  • perspective, is a fascinating thing.

  • Again, if you go to cultures that are not touched by sort

  • of electrical means, the notion of ratcheting your

  • brain out of sleep non-naturally is a very

  • strange one.

  • And it came by way of the factory whistle.

  • I mean that was the first alarm clock in a sense.

  • So you got standardized, mass people movement.

  • So certainly, I don't think it's necessarily a good thing

  • to be setting an alarm clock if you can do it

  • naturalistically.

  • Your body has a pretty good clock

  • counter of what it needs.

  • And it will wake up when it's time.

  • But I don't know of any good evidence that tries to look at

  • those sort of clever clocks that seem to essentially

  • monitor your brain, figure out when the optimal sweet spot

  • is, base it on the light time.

  • I haven't seen many ambulatory devices like those that are

  • actually accurate for sleep staging.

  • SINA NADER: Next question?

  • Let's go with you please.

  • The question was about naps and studies about them?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah.

  • We just shout at them, go to sleep.

  • No.

  • It turns out that we time them to co-occur with that--

  • it's called the post-prandial dip, that drop in your

  • physiological alertness right surround now in the afternoon.

  • So you give them a meal.

  • You put them to bed around this time.

  • And for most young, healthy people, even though we've

  • standardized their sleep schedule, for five days before

  • we've made sure that they've been getting eight hours of

  • sleep or between 7 and 1/2 and eight hours of sleep a night.

  • They still seem to be able to initiate a nap.

  • It takes them about 10 to 15 minutes to go into that nap,

  • but once they're there.

  • These are young, healthy people.

  • By the way, I should say 18 to about 35.

  • It seems to be harder with age to do those things.

  • But you can seem to initiate that

  • sleep during the afternoon.

  • It's obviously a lot harder if you place the nap earlier in

  • the morning.

  • They haven't built up enough sleep pressure yet to go back

  • into sleep.

  • In other words, they haven't accumulated enough adenosine

  • in their brain to force them to go into sleep.

  • Around 6:00 PM, you start to rise back up again in your

  • alertness after that afternoon dip.

  • So it's actually quite hard, despite it being later in the

  • day, to get people to nap then too.

  • So if you understand the biology, you can place the nap

  • window of opportunity time right where it sits and you

  • can get about an 85% hit rate in terms of

  • people falling asleep.

  • SINA NADER: Other questions?

  • So coffee in the morning?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yep.

  • So it's actually just a habit based--

  • I mean your body doesn't need caffeine.

  • People who are drinking caffeine before about midday,

  • you're simply self-medicating your lack of sufficient sleep.

  • So after while it becomes a

  • psychologically habituating effect.

  • If you start to have decaffeinated and people don't

  • tell you, apart from the headaches, based on the

  • physiology that's built up-- you know the notion of a warm

  • drink can do it for you.

  • It tells you have it habit-based, rather than a

  • physiological need.

  • So it's a misnomer that you need that.

  • If you do need that, you should probably be getting

  • more sleep.

  • SINA NADER: A question here, please?

  • So I guess light sleepers and perception versus reality?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: So what we know is that some of those

  • other electrical features of the brain, including the sleep

  • spindles, are not just important for memory

  • processing.

  • Sometimes they seem to respond to external stimuli in your

  • environments.

  • And some people have argued that some of those spindles,

  • they are slower frequency spindles.

  • The faster frequency ones are the ones

  • that relate to memory.

  • The slower frequency ones seem to be

  • relating to external noise.

  • And the argument is that there is physiological mechanisms in

  • place that try to keep you asleep.

  • But it turns out that depending on the spindle

  • quality that you have, you may be more or less susceptible to

  • being woken up by external noises.

  • And it seems to be that that physiology can determine

  • whether or not you're a quote, unquote "light sleeper" versus

  • a "deep sleeper."

  • So we haven't fully understood and characterized that yet.

  • But there are a few reports out there demonstrating that

  • electrical features of the sleeping brain can determine

  • how vulnerable or resilient you are to the sort of

  • alerting, waking up cues is of external sounds and stimuli.

  • So we can understand better.

  • SINA NADER: We had one question over here.

  • Yes, please?

  • So the question was about duration of sleep and--

  • MATTHEW WALKER: No.

  • I would always recommend getting as much sleep as you

  • can possibly get.

  • It's not clear exactly how those 90-minute cycles

  • interact with each other to accumulate and accommodate all

  • of the different brain and body demands that are going

  • on, since we don't understand that algorithm right now.

  • But what we certainly do understand is that getting

  • less than sufficient sleep can cause impairments, it would be

  • far better just to sleep as long as you possibly can.

  • Yeah.

  • I mean you have to remember that human beings are one of

  • the few species that have decided to deliberately

  • deprive themselves of sleep.

  • The rest of the organismic kingdom seems to be far

  • smarter than we are in terms of our understanding of sleep.

  • So I would definitely recommend get as much as you

  • possibly can.

  • AUDIENCE: How much do you sleep?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: It's a good question.

  • I usually say I sleep about eight hours whenever I can,

  • which is never.

  • No.

  • I will routinely get between about seven and a half to

  • eight hours of sleep.

  • If I get less than seven hours, I know it.

  • When you're this type of a researcher you become sort of

  • like the Woody Allen neurotic of the sleep world, both by

  • way of I know I can observe all of the impairments because

  • I'm acutely aware of them.

  • And worse still, when I'm in bed, let's say I've kind of

  • crossed time zones and I've got all of those problems.

  • I'm lying in bed and I know all about the biology of what

  • should happen to initiate sleep.

  • So I'm thinking my god, my core body temperature is

  • probably half a degree off.

  • I'm not shutting down my

  • dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

  • The histamine in my brain--

  • and at that point, you're dead in the water.

  • In the next hour, you're going to ruminate.

  • So I wouldn't recommend--

  • stay with whatever job you're in as long as

  • it's not sleep research.

  • SINA NADER: Well said.

  • How much time do we have, Chris?

  • CHRIS: You can go longer.

  • SINA NADER: Keep going, OK.

  • Over here, please.

  • Yes?

  • So the question was how to deal with daytime fatigue?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah.

  • I think the most obvious question is start to get

  • sufficient sleep, if that's routinely happening.

  • If it's that one-off circumstance, certainly you

  • can have countermeasures.

  • So things like caffeine can be somewhat effective in terms of

  • driving, sort of if you start to feel drowsy.

  • But drowsy driving, for the most part the recommendation

  • is just get off the road.

  • Because what you can have during fatigue is what we call

  • microsleeps.

  • And they can happen for just a few seconds, even less, where

  • you just kind of zone out and you come back.

  • And it turns out that at 65 miles an hour, you only need

  • one of these microsleeps to go two lanes in the opposite,

  • left or right, direction.

  • So that may be the last microsleep that you ever have.

  • So caffeine can work to an extent if it's a one-off.

  • Certainly, if you can take sleep, have

  • a short sleep period.

  • You have to be a little bit careful after a nap though

  • because what happens upon waking up from a nap or a

  • normal night of sleep is that you have something called

  • sleep inertia.

  • Which is that it's just like the car engine.

  • It takes a little bit of time to warm up.

  • Now, it's not oil that needs to warm up in terms of your

  • brain of course.

  • Some parts of your brain come back online

  • more slowly than others.

  • The frontal lobe in particular seems to take a longer

  • duration of time.

  • So in other words, if you do have a counteractive nap to

  • overcome that tiredness, don't necessarily jump right back in

  • the car, wake up and start driving again.

  • Go grab a coffee.

  • And then sort of give yourself 15 or 20 minutes to wake up.

  • Then start doing those types of activities.

  • SINA NADER: Question?

  • Let's go with the back there, please?

  • The question was what's a good length for a nap?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: The answer really depends on what you

  • want out of it.

  • If you want to just restore your basic level of alertness,

  • 15, 20 minutes, that can have potential benefits.

  • For things like learning and memory, it seems as though you

  • need to go longer, depending on what type of learning and

  • memory information that you're trying to get a benefit from.

  • For emotional brain regulation, what we're finding

  • there is that rapid eye movement sleep again comes

  • into play, dream sleep.

  • And we've been finding that for those emotional regulation

  • benefits from a nap, you need to go long to get that REM

  • sleep, which comes at the end of the cycle.

  • So it's not a simple answer.

  • It really depends on what you're trying to self-medicate

  • in terms of a functional benefit from that nap.

  • SINA NADER: Question right here, please?

  • So melatonin and sleep?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: So I think the evidence right out there now

  • suggests that melatonin doesn't necessarily affect the

  • duration of your sleep, nor the quality of your sleep.

  • What melatonin does is help with the regulation of

  • initiation of sleep.

  • So the timing of sleep, not the duration or

  • the quality of sleep.

  • Melatonin is a naturally released

  • hormone within the body.

  • It's called the "hormone of darkness," not because it

  • looks just great and bad-assed sort of thing.

  • It's because it's released at night time.

  • And it tells your brain that it is night time.

  • It tells the brain and the body that this

  • is the time to sleep.

  • So that's why it's efficacious when you travel through time

  • zones because now there's a mismatch between your

  • biological clock and the time zone.

  • And so whilst your biological clock is still saying it's

  • 4:00 in the afternoon, in the new time zone it's midnight.

  • And so if you take melatonin a little bit before sleep onset,

  • then your brain is fooled into no longer thinking it's sort

  • of 4:00 PM in the afternoon.

  • But it's oh, my goodness, it must now be midnight.

  • And that can help the initiation of sleep.

  • But I think the evidence is pretty robust now, not the

  • duration or the quality.

  • SINA NADER: Let's go with somebody we haven't had yet.

  • Yes, please?

  • So the question was about elderly people and sleep and

  • kind of what can be done to remedy or address it?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yes.

  • So certainly electrical brain stimulation is one of those

  • that we're starting to try and implement now.

  • Obviously, it's probably not a population-wise therapeutic

  • device sort of more generally.

  • I think firstly, we need to demonstrate that by restoring

  • that sleep we can get the memory benefit.

  • If we can, then I think there's lots of other ways

  • that you can do it.

  • Exercise is one of them.

  • One of the types of sleep that exercise will enhance when you

  • do get it, as long as the exercise isn't too close, is

  • deep slow-wave sleep.

  • There is pharmacology of course.

  • Although you have to be a bit careful with pharmacology

  • because it tends to be systemic and it tends to have

  • variety of other effects.

  • But there are drugs out there on the market that seem to

  • increase what looks like the depth of that deep sleep.

  • So I think there are a variety of pharmacological,

  • electrical, behavioral techniques that you can use.

  • And some combination or all of those may be useful long term,

  • depending on how the technology could be

  • distributed at a population level.

  • SINA NADER: A question over here please, yes?

  • So the question was sort of about the pattern of maybe the

  • sleep/wake cycle, if I can summarize it.

  • MATTHEW WALKER: So it's a fascinating, still within the

  • field, philosophical rather than sort of scientifically

  • addressed question right now, which is why would you lose

  • consciousness?

  • It's not the energy savings.

  • So it turns out that if you were to just lie on your

  • couch, couch-potato like, even with your eyelids closed but

  • remain awake, the caloric difference between sort of

  • that and falling asleep is only about the calorie savings

  • of a slice of brown bread.

  • My point being is that that seems to be a totally

  • inefficient benefit for losing consciousness and falling prey

  • to all of the dangers that happen like that.

  • Why wouldn't you just go out and club another seal and have

  • more food and save back that-- sort of get back that energy

  • and not have to lose consciousness by way of this

  • thing that we call sleep in terms of a

  • process that evolved.

  • So clearly what seems to be essential, or one of the

  • things that seems to be essential, is disengaging with

  • the outside information or perceptual world.

  • Don't forget though that the perceptual information

  • processing world does reoccur during sleep, during this

  • thing that we call REM sleep, which is dreaming.

  • But one of the potential benefits of going offline is

  • that the processing cognitively of information

  • that happens either when you're awake with your eyes

  • shut versus the nonconscious state of the deep non-REM

  • sleep, that may be required for this type of offline

  • information processing.

  • Because otherwise, you get information interference.

  • You get cross-wiring of those combating information streams.

  • And you can't effectively do what the sleeping

  • brain seems to do.

  • That's one possibility.

  • I still think it's a huge mystery though as to why.

  • It seems so counterintuitive.

  • You're not finding a mate.

  • You're not socially interacting.

  • You're not getting food.

  • All of these things would suggest sleep is a bad idea.

  • Yet it's universal, it seems.

  • SINA NADER: It reminds me of a quote I heard you mention in

  • another talk.

  • If sleep wasn't--

  • if it wasn't necessary, it was the greatest mistake of

  • evolution, something to that effect.

  • Another question?

  • Yes, please?

  • Go ahead.

  • So naps and interfering with regular--

  • restless sleep?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yes.

  • So when it comes back to naps, we come back to the adenosine

  • story again.

  • So as I described to you, adenosine starts to build up

  • in this time-dependent fashion in the day.

  • When you sleep, what happens-- it's like a pressure cooker

  • building up with steam.

  • When you sleep, you dissipate that pressure.

  • You remove the adenosine.

  • So you come back down to your baseline level again.

  • That's why if you've had enough sleep, you wake up

  • feeling alert or you should be.

  • What happens with the naps, and naps can be a double-edge

  • sword, if you sleep too long or you have them too late in

  • the day, is that you're building up that adenosine

  • pressure that will make you go to sleep in a

  • healthy manner at night.

  • You have a nap and the nap removed--

  • opens the valve.

  • And you dissipate some of that sleep pressure, some of it,

  • not all of it, but some of it.

  • And now, you wake up and you feel more alert again.

  • And it takes you longer to get back to that point of feeling

  • sleepy again that evening than it would have if you had not

  • taken the nap.

  • So in other words, you then start to think well, it's

  • 11:00, midnight.

  • Well, I'm not sleepy.

  • I normally am.

  • And the reason is because you haven't taken a

  • nap during the day.

  • But because you have just recently, that has removed

  • some of that sleep pressure.

  • So you're no longer as sleepy anymore at that time of day.

  • So you have to be a bit careful with naps because they

  • will take away some of that urge to sleep.

  • And that's presumably why exactly that

  • happens that you described.

  • AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: No, I think the idea

  • would be that if you're--

  • the question was would you sort of habituate to the naps?

  • The idea would be if you're taking those naps, essentially

  • you can think of it like absorbing some of the

  • eight-hour quota that you're having.

  • And so it may be that you would then be going to bed

  • later, but you would sleep a shorter amount and

  • wake up the next day.

  • And it depends on the evidence that look at.

  • But there's some argument that as long getting that eight

  • hours, to a degree that's not too bad in

  • that biphasic manner.

  • I think highly polyphasic sleep, however, that is

  • somewhat of a trend now and sort of sleeping 90 minutes,

  • being awake then another two hours, and all of this stuff,

  • that doesn't seem to be the way that the biology is

  • programmed within adult humans.

  • It was the way in which you were programmed when you were

  • a small infant though.

  • Infants are highly polyphasic in their sleep.

  • They will be asleep for short periods, then awake, sleep.

  • And parents know this,

  • unfortunately, to their detriment.

  • But once you get into adulthood, the pattern

  • stabilizes, certainly into a biphasic, perhaps monophasic.

  • So, yup.

  • SINA NADER: Other questions?

  • Yes, please?

  • So the question was about new parents and sleep deprivation?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah.

  • I hear that a lot.

  • I did survive.

  • And if that's your basal level of success, it says so much.

  • There is no good knowledge right now that human beings

  • have any kind of learned ability to overcome sleep

  • deprivation.

  • You hear this a lot in some of these sort of heroic

  • professions.

  • Medicine is a good one.

  • Sort of that old boys' network notion that well, it takes a

  • special person, one who can learn to deal with sleep

  • deprivation.

  • You have to realize that, again, the few sort of set of

  • species that do go into sleep deprivation, there's no way

  • that within a short lifetime of an individual you can learn

  • to adopt to millions of years of evolution that put this

  • thing in place called sleep.

  • And it's never faced the evolutionary challenge of

  • having to deal with a lack of sleep.

  • Because it's not common.

  • And so this idea, this misplaced idea, that you can

  • sort of learn to cope with it or that there is a biological

  • safety net that you can invoke at certain times, that doesn't

  • seem to be necessarily true.

  • However, there are some exceptions.

  • There are some interesting scenarios where some species

  • for a certain duration of their cycle will undergo sleep

  • deprivation, one of which is migrating birds.

  • And there is a particular migrating bird that during

  • that period of migration, seems to be somewhat resistant

  • to the effects of insufficient sleep.

  • Yet out of that phrase of the migration, it is susceptible

  • to the sleep deprivation.

  • And that's fascinating.

  • Because it tells us that maybe there are some biological

  • mechanisms that can offer some resilience for a

  • short period of time.

  • It turns out the military were fascinated by it.

  • They were very interested in finding that work to figure

  • out-- obviously, you know, a 24-hour soldier.

  • But for the most part, there isn't good

  • evidence that people--

  • or there's anything like sort of breastfeeding or nursing or

  • any circumstance that seems to co-opt and invoke resilience

  • to the impact of sleep deprivation.

  • SINA NADER: Question in the back?

  • So the question was about gadgets, including the Zeo?

  • And then also about sort of self-treatment or maybe

  • autotitration, that type of thing?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: So since I'm not a clinician, an M.D., I

  • can't really give too many recommendations about the

  • apnea stuff.

  • But certainly in terms of Zeo, there have been some empirical

  • data put out there that suggests that it may have a

  • somewhat good degree of correlation between the gold

  • standard of in-lab electrodes, validated sleep staging

  • relative to its algorithm of sleep staging.

  • It tends to be able to simply quantify light sleep and deep

  • sleep and then arguably dream sleep, REM sleep.

  • However if you look around, for example if you just go

  • onto to Amazon and you look at the user reviews, some people

  • are saying well, right now, I am looking at my Zeo.

  • And I'm awake and I'm looking at the clock and it's saying

  • I'm in REM sleep.

  • What's going on?

  • And I don't believe that they're having a hallucination

  • whilst their dreaming.

  • I think that's probably real.

  • So I think those algorithms have got a way to go before

  • they reach that.

  • And I don't think they're valid yet as a strong, at

  • least a experimental tool.

  • And I think Zeo has actually, unfortunately, just gone out

  • of business.

  • SINA NADER: Other questions?

  • Yes, over here please?

  • That's a great question.

  • I have the same question myself.

  • The question was about kind of upcoming research and things

  • that might be on the horizon?

  • MATTHEW WALKER: Yeah.

  • Well, not wanting to give away too many of our research goals

  • and secrets.

  • But I think certainly one of the areas is in this area of

  • sleep and the lifespan.

  • So firstly, you're looking at the aging issue, not just in

  • aging, but now into dementias.

  • We know that the pathology of things like Alzheimer's

  • disease hits very perniciously the sensors in the brain that

  • regulate and generate that deep sleep.

  • So starting to really understand translationing,

  • what all of this basic science means for things like clinical

  • disorders such as Alzheimer's disease I think

  • is going to be critical.

  • Also that role of sleep in emotional brain regulation I

  • think is going to just explode in terms of a field.

  • And its core relevance will be in this selection of

  • psychiatric disorders that suffer co-occurring

  • impairments of sleep.

  • I think sleep has a huge story to tell in psychiatry.

  • And I think that story right now has not been told.

  • In part, because people like me haven't been doing enough

  • basic research.

  • I think we're starting to get to the stage where we've

  • understood it enough where we can make that

  • translational leap.

  • I think psychiatry has often thought that sleep disruption

  • was simply a side product of the psychiatric disorder.

  • You could flip that question around and ask is the sleep

  • disruption contributing or causing

  • the psychiatric disorder?

  • That's a tenable hypothesis.

  • Ultimately, I think it's going to be neither one of those.

  • Biology tends to never be unidirectional.

  • It tends to be bidirectional.

  • Is the flow of traffic going more strongly one way up the

  • street than another?

  • That's possible.

  • So I think the whole translation of this basic

  • understanding of what sleep is doing is going to be big in

  • terms of clinical medicine soon.

  • Also reversing the time clock back into development.

  • Some of the greatest changes in our sleep happen within the

  • first two years of life and then after that, right into

  • adolescence.

  • If sleep is regulating all of these functions, they're also

  • functions that show demonstrable changes in those

  • developmental phases, learning, memory, plasticity.

  • Babies starting to understand what the rules of this thing

  • that we call the world that we live in are.

  • It turns out that if you give infants naps, they can start

  • to abstract rules, even before they can speak.

  • You can see it in their behavior, sleep-promoting

  • creativity.

  • So I think that understanding.

  • Because developmental changes and developmental disorders

  • also co-occur with some sleep abnormalities.

  • So I think there's a lot.

  • I think other interactions are also

  • going to be with genetics.

  • I think we're starting to understand that different

  • genetic compositions have a lot to tell us about the

  • impact of sleep and sleep deprivation.

  • Being one genetic flavor, does that mean that you're

  • resilient versus another that means that you're vulnerable?

  • What does that mean ethically for professions if we've got a

  • number of professions that we know of where sleep

  • deprivation is rife, should we be interviewing them and then

  • doing a genetic test if we find that type of evidence?

  • So I think there's fascinating possibilities.

  • But I think the cool one is that this is one of the last,

  • great scientific mysteries of why we sleep.

  • You spend a third of you life doing it.

  • And people like me, doctors and scientists, I can't give

  • you a satisfying, consensus answer.

  • I mean that just blows my mind.

  • Despite all of the advances in molecular biology, we don't

  • have an answer.

  • And imagine that.

  • When as a parent, you first child is born and the doctor

  • walks in and says, congratulations, everything

  • looks great.

  • It's a healthy boy or a girl.

  • All the tests look good.

  • And they smiling in that reassuring way and they start

  • to walk away.

  • And before they get to the door they say,

  • there is just one thing.

  • Routinely from this point forward and for the rest of

  • your child's life, they will lapse into a state that looks

  • like nonconsciousness.

  • In fact, it looks not dissimilar to death.

  • But don't worry, it's reversible.

  • And they will do that, fulfilling approximately one

  • third of their entire life.

  • They will have hallucinogenic, bizarre experiences.

  • And I don't know why.

  • Good luck.

  • And at that point, you'd say, no, no, that can't be true.

  • I'm sorry.

  • That's silly.

  • That's what sleep is.

  • So beyond all of the translation or big picture

  • stuff, I think we still have to come back to answering that

  • question, why do we sleep?

MATTHEW WALKER: It's a pleasure to be here.

Subtitles and vocabulary

Click the word to look it up Click the word to find further inforamtion about it