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  • [MUSIC PLAYING]

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Good afternoon, everyone.

  • Welcome to another amazing Talks at Google event.

  • My name is Cliff Redeker and I have the privilege

  • of discussing today the new film out

  • called "Score," which is a journey through the history

  • of film composing and the interplay

  • between the visual medium and the audio.

  • And we're very thrilled today to be

  • joined by both the director, Matt Schrader,

  • as well as one of the composers featured

  • in the film, Joe Kramer.

  • So I'd like to invite them both to join me on stage

  • and we'll have a few questions.

  • [APPLAUSE]

  • [INTERPOSING VOICES]

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Great.

  • I think you'll have to hit the on

  • button just on the side there, just

  • to make sure that we're live.

  • So I was wondering if you could first tell me

  • a little bit about the film-- what the inspirations were,

  • and probably most importantly, since it's

  • a film about music film composition, how did

  • you score the score?

  • MATT SCHRADER: Yeah, we jumped into this as, really, fans--

  • somewhat educated fans, but not that educated.

  • And we thought it would be worthwhile to take

  • a plunge into this topic.

  • It's something that kind of amazingly

  • had not been done before as a documentary.

  • And we had several conversations about a lot of this

  • and realized there's an incredible depth--

  • obviously, it's such an immersive,

  • kind of creative art form in the first place.

  • But it hasn't really--

  • hasn't really been dived into before.

  • And so we actually wanted to try to allow some of the great

  • examples of film scores throughout the years,

  • throughout decades-- the really, last 100 years probably--

  • be the focal point, the thing that we share.

  • We came into this thinking we probably

  • don't need an original score.

  • At the end, we realized we kind of did.

  • We needed something to at least fill a few different areas

  • where it made a lot of sense, especially where we're

  • explaining something that needs something to carry

  • that just a little bit.

  • But I think that's largely it.

  • We wanted the focal point of this

  • to really be the work over the last many, many decades that

  • have made a big impact on-- not just musicians,

  • not just people in film, but also all of pop culture.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Exactly.

  • And I also want to delve a little bit more

  • into the art form as well.

  • If you approach it as one of the largest employers of orchestras

  • these days, it's definitely in the classical tradition.

  • But at the same time, how did that diverge

  • from pure classical music?

  • You have Handel's water music, you

  • have a few big capital letter composers

  • that compose for film, that then seems

  • to have split a little bit.

  • And now it's actually on the way back,

  • where you have Nobue Uematsu in concert,

  • or Hans Zimmer in an auditorium.

  • So how did that journey happen?

  • JOE KRAMER: Well, I think what happened

  • is that we saw a decline in attendance

  • in classical orchestra concerts.

  • So city orchestras across America

  • were seeing radical drops in attendance.

  • At the same time, the young concert

  • goers that they were trying to attract

  • were interested in seeing concerts

  • with music from "The Legend of Zelda" or "Final Fantasy."

  • And that's where I first saw it happening,

  • was with video games.

  • And so you'd go to a concert hall,

  • and there'd be the audience filled

  • with people dressed as Link.

  • You know what I mean?

  • And they'd be there to hear the score

  • from the Wind Waker performed live with a symphony orchestra.

  • And then at the 20th anniversary of "E.T.,"

  • Williams did the score live to picture.

  • And it was the first time I'd seen it done in a concert,

  • ever.

  • And it was a huge success and it took a while

  • for all the studios' legal departments

  • to make all the arrangements but that became another thing.

  • And so what we're seeing now, the next step

  • was doing an entire film live to picture.

  • And the New York Philharmonic is getting

  • ready to do four Star Wars movies this fall.

  • The Hollywood Bowl every summer is doing--

  • last summer I think they did "E.T." and "Harry Potter."

  • They're doing two or three movies a year.

  • I saw them do "2001" live, which was amazing.

  • John Williams, as the conductor of the Boston Pops,

  • was always incorporating specially adapted suites

  • of his film music into the show--

  • into the shows.

  • And you saw once in a while, like, "Gone with the Wind"

  • would be on a program.

  • But they were usually Pops concerts

  • that were divided from the classical thing.

  • And what I would think would be interesting would be,

  • that in a way, the classic--

  • they start sneaking a classical piece

  • into one of these concerts that's video game music.

  • It wouldn't-- it would be harder to do in a concert where

  • they're showing the film.

  • But if you just had a concert where

  • it was like two hours of music from all the Star Wars movies,

  • without visual, and then you said,

  • we're going to throw some Mars in,

  • some of the planets in there--

  • [INAUDIBLE] you know.

  • That could be an interesting way to then reignite kid's interest

  • in the classical composers.

  • I mean, the challenge is that the language

  • of contemporary film music is so radically

  • different from the language of classical music.

  • There's a big gulf between the kind of melodic contrapuntal

  • writing that Beethoven was doing,

  • and what you're hearing in "Pirates of the Caribbean."

  • it's like Mitchell Loeb says.

  • It's Led Zeppelin with an orchestra.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: And then also I think it separates the art

  • form, as well.

  • Like, composing for film has inherent constraints

  • by definition.

  • The movie is only so long.

  • You're tying it into certain clips.

  • How do you work within that constraint, expand it?

  • And then if you're doing a suite or re-arrangement,

  • what's your approach when you cut out the visual component?

  • JOE KRAMER: Well, Yeah.

  • People always marvel at how much John Williams

  • music works on its own terms.

  • But-- and it's not to put it down, he's sort of-- for me,

  • he's sort of the pinnacle of the art form.

  • He makes specific arrangements for concerts.

  • And they're versions that you don't really

  • ever hear in the movie the way you hear them at Symphony Hall.

  • You know what I mean?

  • It's almost like making a hit single out of a Broadway show,

  • where the song is never performed that way in the show

  • but you've made a single of it for the radio.

  • What was the--

  • CLIFF REDEKER: How you work within the constraint itself?

  • JOE KRAMER: So, yeah--

  • CLIFF REDEKER: You know, two hours--

  • JOE KRAMER: To me, it's not a constraint.

  • For me, actually, it's a helpful skeleton

  • to hang musical ideas on.

  • So say for example, in "Mission Impossible,"

  • there's a sequence where Ethan Hunt, played by Tom--

  • the opening scene where he jumps on the wing

  • of that airplane and then hangs on to it as it takes off.

  • You have these sort of signposts along the way

  • that guide, and for me inform, the structure

  • of what I'm writing.

  • So we have the studio cards at the very beginning that

  • say Paramount Pictures, Sky Dance Pictures, et cetera, et

  • cetera, Bad Robot.

  • And then we have the shot of the field.

  • And then Benji pops up.

  • And then conversation begins and we're cutting back and forth.

  • And all of those events become markers

  • in my timeline in the computer that I use to write my music.

  • And it becomes sort of a binary process of saying, well,

  • is it fast or slow?

  • Is it brass or strings?

  • Is it light or dark?

  • Is it funny or tense?

  • And before I know it, I go, OK, so I've

  • got to write 12 seconds of funny string medium tempo music--

  • go.

  • And then-- and then-- but when you have that--

  • when you have a set of criteria that you have to satisfy,

  • you know-- as programmers, you would all know that.

  • If you've got to make a little applet that

  • does this specific thing, you've got that.

  • And in just the same way that you

  • have APIs built into however you're programming,

  • and dialog boxes that are built into the OS,

  • I've got those tricks in music that I

  • know will let me communicate.

  • Because what I'm trying to do is communicate to the audience--

  • essentially, a score is a second language track

  • that you're hearing underneath the dialogue.

  • And it's telling the story.

  • And it's informing the audience of connections

  • between characters, of where we are in the world,

  • of how we're supposed to be interpreting what we're

  • seeing on an emotional level.

  • And I'm trying to get at your subconscious using a shorthand

  • that's been developed--

  • CLIFF REDEKER: It triggers the emotional reaction, yeah.

  • And of course, thank you for calling programming an art.

  • We like to think it's an art here, too.

  • So mission accomplished.

  • But--

  • JOE KRAMER: Don't say that.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: But then I was also curious too,

  • if you could describe just the general process when you're--

  • are you approached to score these films?

  • Like is there-- are there auditions or demo reel?

  • Like, what's the-- how does it go

  • from a germ of an idea to you at the piano to you in the studio?

  • JOE KRAMER: Ideally, what happens is,

  • somebody has heard music that I've done for another film

  • and they're just so in love with it

  • that they've got to have me score

  • their movie no matter what.

  • And they call me and say, we want you to score this movie.

  • That never happens.

  • What happens is, I hear that they're making a movie

  • and I go, I think I'd like to try to work on that.

  • And I-- either I call them directly or through my agent,

  • we reach out to them and see if they're interested,

  • if they've hired somebody.

  • It's not a business that is--

  • oddly enough, it's not a career that is really driven

  • by the person who's doing it.

  • I can't force a director to hire me to score their movie.

  • And I don't have the means at my disposal

  • to write and direct and make movies,

  • just so I could score them.

  • So I'm sort of at the mercy of the people who are hiring.

  • And in my experience, that's principally directors.

  • Studio executives obviously play a part in that,

  • producers play a part in that.

  • In the case of "Mission Impossible,"

  • Tom Cruise played a part in that,

  • because the franchise is his baby.

  • But ultimately, it was--

  • Chris McQuarrie is the director of that film--

  • that made the decision.

  • And similarly, I did the score for "Jack Reacher"

  • with Chris McQuarrie.

  • Tom-- Chris loved the score, Tom loved the score.

  • By all accounts, everybody loved the score.

  • When Ed Zwick was approached to direct

  • the sequel, the first thing he told everybody is,

  • I don't want to bring anybody back from the first movie.

  • If I take this job, I want to have a fresh start.

  • Which means no-- new photographer, new editor,

  • new production design, new costume design, new composer.

  • And no matter how much I wanted to do the film

  • and how much maybe even Tom or Sky

  • Dance or Paramount would have liked me to do the film,

  • it was the director's call.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Interesting.

  • And I think it's also worth pointing out that a lot of this

  • comes under very short notice from the time you get the call.

  • You're in the studio within a matter of weeks.

  • You're recording it within a matter of weeks.

  • How do you work under those deadlines and stay creative?

  • JOE KRAMER: You eat a lot.

  • So there's-- and then when you're not working,

  • you drink a lot.

  • There's a certain element of craftsmanship to it.

  • We all have in our brain, maybe, the perfect game

  • that we want to create for Chrome.

  • We all have the idea of what would be the perfect Google

  • App for the title page.

  • And then when we get the call to do it, we're suddenly like,

  • I don't--

  • I don't know what to do.

  • I had all these great ideas and now

  • I suddenly can't think what would

  • be the perfect game for me to define myself

  • as a programmer for the Google title page.

  • You know what I mean?

  • Similarly, with composing, I have all these ideas

  • and then I get the call and it's a movie that I never

  • thought I would be asked to work on, or a kind of music.

  • I'm like, how did they hear what I've done and think,

  • this is what I--

  • I'm the guy for this?

  • What's nice is, it frees up your thinking because

  • in any creative endeavor, what you're trying to do

  • is get past the censor in your head that saying that's dumb,

  • that's stinks, that's not going to work.

  • So you're-- I I'm--

  • and I have the, like I said, the craftsmanship tricks

  • or sparks, help spark my memory, or my creative thinking,

  • that I can rely on.

  • Like, the binary decision-- fast, slow, light, dark, happy,

  • sad.

  • There's a whole evil concept lurking beneath the whole film

  • world which the film doesn't really get into,

  • which is temporary music that's been cut into the film.

  • And oftentimes that can be instructive.

  • It can also be hand-cuffs, but at its best,

  • it's instructive in helping people

  • talk about something that's hard to talk about, which is music.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: And we actually had a question

  • from Dave down in our Los Angeles office

  • with that very same idea, the idea of temp tracks.

  • And what do you do when the director says,

  • I really love the temp track.

  • Make something like it.

  • Or-- how do you still infuse your own voice into something

  • that you didn't necessarily make yourself?

  • JOE KRAMER: I don't mean to be monopolizing,

  • so any time you want an answer, just--

  • MATT SCHRADER: No, you take the [INAUDIBLE]..

  • JOE KRAMER: You nudge me.

  • Well, I'm not a lawyer.

  • And I trust the production to have lawyers

  • that can vet what I submit.

  • But there are aspects of music that you can seize upon.

  • Because what you're trying to get at

  • is the feeling that the music is creating.

  • There was sort of a famous lawsuit in the early

  • '80s against the video game Jawbreaker, which--

  • Namco, I think, accused of ripping off Pac-Man.

  • And their argument was essentially,

  • if it feels like you're playing--

  • even if it's not the little yellow guy and it's not ghosts,

  • if it feels like you're playing Pac-Man,

  • aren't you infringing on our copyright?

  • And I can't remember how that thing was solved.

  • What you have to do with music is sort of go,

  • what are the elements that I can emulate without getting sued?

  • So chord changes-- you can't copyright chord changes.

  • Otherwise, every single blues artist

  • would be suing every other single blues artist.

  • You can't copyright rhythm, or else "Happy Birthday"

  • and "The Star-spangled Banner" would be suing each other,

  • because--

  • like, legend has it, Robert Kennedy

  • was so tone deaf that he couldn't

  • tell if it was the national anthem or "Happy Birthday"

  • unless they were singing the words.

  • You can't copyright what key something is,

  • or what tempo it is.

  • So right there, you've got tempo, chord changes, key,

  • and rhythm.

  • Now obviously, if you did all four of those,

  • you'd be really pushing your luck.

  • But those are four aspects that you

  • can examine in a piece of temp, and say, how can I

  • utilize those in one way or another

  • to create the same feeling.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: And you're also interjecting your own expertise

  • as well.

  • You can say like, this works out OK.

  • Here's how I want to plus or expand it, or--

  • JOE KRAMER: Right.

  • Well, and the other thing is thematic writing,

  • which I think helps a lot because if you have themes

  • for characters, what you're really then doing

  • is arranging those themes in the style of the music in the temp.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: So, Matt, I guess, going back to the film

  • as well, you're interviewing dozens of composers,

  • you have a psychologist that you interviewed as well

  • for the cognitive perspective.

  • How did you wind up selecting the list?

  • What was it like working with these different folks?

  • And also the-- the split between film scores and TV scores--

  • like, was that something intentional?

  • MATT SCHRADER: Yeah, and video games, too.

  • I mean, video games have become a huge--

  • huge, I mean, that's a big deal for composers now.

  • And you have to structure it differently.

  • You have to make something so that it's kind of--

  • the score is kind of maybe collapsible or expandable

  • sometimes, and it fits certain story lines.

  • Yeah, so that's one of-- we made the conscious decision,

  • because there's so many other developing things that

  • take a very similar model to what you see in the film score,

  • including television.

  • And they kind of expand on it or they

  • kind of collapse a little bit.

  • We thought the film score is the easiest one to really

  • comprehend and to get a sense of how it's--

  • how you develop something and how you can come back to it.

  • There is a certain kind of rhythm

  • and a certain kind of poetry if it's

  • done right, to the way that the music should work.

  • So that, I think we wanted to narrow

  • in on that kind of specific thing.

  • In terms of the people that we interviewed in the film,

  • the music psychologist that we interviewed is fantastic.

  • She's one of the foremost in her field

  • and has all of these crazy studies that she's done--

  • CLIFF REDEKER: The area in the brain that lights up.

  • MATT SCHRADER: Right.

  • I mean, it's that, but it's also-- it's eye tracking

  • things.

  • They've studied how music effects

  • where you look on screen.

  • And she's done some of these really great tests that

  • aren't in the film but she told us about,

  • about how if you have really scary music,

  • you're looking in the shadows of something.

  • You might miss something else entirely.

  • If you have happy music-- and there's

  • this great example from this film she told us about.

  • But someone rowing a boat across a--

  • across a river or a lake, and the left side of the screen

  • is almost all in shadows.

  • And the way that they studied where people were looking

  • for this is, they had some text pop up

  • in the shadow that's like bright red.

  • You're not going to miss it.

  • You'll see it for sure.

  • And when they play the scary music, everyone saw it.

  • They said, what's that text there?

  • But if they play happy music, someone rowing their boat

  • across the water, you never even look there.

  • You're following a story that kind of matches

  • the feeling that's there, too.

  • So it shows a little bit about how things can guide the eye.

  • And we thought that was really fascinating stuff.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Well it's also a testament

  • to the craft that's been developed over so many years.

  • It's giving people an emotional context,

  • like playing with the theme.

  • I mean it's operatic onscreen.

  • MATT SCHRADER: Yeah.

  • Just the stories that you can feel through the music.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: And I also--

  • you also spoke with the session musicians, the editors.

  • And Joe, you can speak to this for you

  • personally, or more broadly for the other folks

  • that you work with.

  • Is there a sense of a recurring team?

  • Do composers have a choice of which

  • session musicians to work with.

  • whether they go to Abbey Road or down in LA, or--

  • how does that work?

  • And does it influence the process?

  • JOE KRAMER: It definitely influences the process.

  • You know, there's two--

  • I mean, I guess the first way to answer

  • the question is, there's two general ways that composers

  • work.

  • They either get a creative fee, and then

  • the recording and all of that stuff is handled by the studio.

  • Or they get what's called a package deal.

  • And generally in a package deal, it's

  • all the composer's responsibility.

  • They're given the music budget and told

  • come back with the score.

  • You'll find with a lot of package deals

  • that composers have mixer, orchestrator, musicians,

  • studio, everything where they like to work.

  • In this context, I mean the recording studio

  • where they record it.

  • And then you'll find with a creative fee,

  • it's often dictated by if it's a union film we

  • need to use a union orchestra.

  • If it was Princip-- like in the case of "Mission Impossible,"

  • because it was all done in London,

  • it made the most sense to record the score in London.

  • If it had been done in LA, there may

  • have been union requirements that insisted

  • that we should score it in LA.

  • And then if it's a smaller, independently financed film,

  • they're not going to have the means to afford the union.

  • And you do get--

  • to a certain degree, you get what you pay for.

  • And when you go with a top notch union orchestra like LA,

  • you're getting top notch performance.

  • And when you have to cut corners on the cost,

  • you're usually making up for that.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Something's got to give.

  • JOE KRAMER: Yeah.

  • Something's got to give, and then you're

  • going to spend more time mixing and editing the performances

  • to get a usable recording.

  • It helps to know who you're writing for.

  • Certainly in the case-- say, "Harry Potter,"

  • John Williams has a longstanding relationship with a keyboardist

  • named Randy Kerber, and he's got this crazy thing where

  • the guy's on the [INAUDIBLE] going [MUSICAL SOUNDS]

  • for like, 30 seconds--

  • just all over the place.

  • And he sent it to Randy like a month before the recording

  • session and was like, I think you're

  • going to want to practice.

  • But he knew he was writing it for Randy,

  • and there's a video on YouTube somewhere of Randy

  • going like, I got it and it was just all [INAUDIBLE],,

  • I was like, ohh.

  • Like, it was a lot of notes, you know.

  • But you wouldn't necessarily take that chance

  • if you didn't know who the keyboardist was

  • that you were writing for.

  • Certainly on a film, where you've

  • got to get it done in a fairly remarkable amount of time.

  • When it's a concert piece and you

  • know that the orchestra will have time to rehearse,

  • you can take more chances.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: And the film also made a big deal

  • about the composer in the studio looking at the recording

  • as it's happening, versus the composer right

  • out there leading the orchestra along.

  • Do you have any preferences?

  • Do folks come into familiar styles?

  • Does it really have an impact on the output,

  • whether you control more from the studio or not?

  • MATT SCHRADER: Well, composers definitely

  • hear it differently in different places.

  • In some-- Joe's an example of someone who gets--

  • I mean, I guess I'll let you answer this.

  • There are some composers that want

  • to hear what is being recorded through everything,

  • so that they know what you're getting.

  • They maybe know what they can work

  • with in all of their editing and mixing and everything else.

  • But there's also, I mean--

  • Joe gave an example of this in the film

  • and also John Debney did as well.

  • But there is a feeling among a lot of composers

  • still that they really want to conduct,

  • because you are there with the orchestra

  • and you develop a little bit of a connection

  • and can influence the way they play certain things

  • and can correct things if they're not necessarily

  • being done the completely the way you want.

  • I'll let you explain it.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Cuts out the middleman, I guess.

  • JOE KRAMER: Yeah.

  • I was just going to say it.

  • If I'm sitting in the booth and I've

  • got Pete Anthony conducting, and I want something

  • changed I have to tell Pete, who then tells the orchestra.

  • And that can work.

  • And that does work for a lot of people.

  • But personally-- there's two things for me, personally.

  • One is that, just how many chances

  • am I going to get to conduct symphony orchestras?

  • So every chance I get, I'm going to take.

  • And then the second thing is, I wrote it and I know

  • how it's supposed to go.

  • And when they play it and it's not right, I can address that.

  • And it's not because they don't know--

  • I mean, they're sight reading this stuff.

  • I'm throwing-- if you've seen "Mission Impossible"

  • Rogue Nation," there's a three minute sequence

  • with a motorcycle chase.

  • And I wrote that on Saturday at 2:00 in the afternoon,

  • and we were recording it Sunday morning at 11:00.

  • And the orchestra was sight reading it.

  • And take one could have gone in the movie.

  • I mean, these guys are top notch.

  • But they're sight reading.

  • And so what I'm trying to give them technically

  • as a conductor, that a person who

  • didn't write the music-- because the conductor,

  • then, is sight reading, too, if they're not the composer.

  • What I'm trying to give them is, this is what's going on.

  • They are looking at 50,000 notes, playing.

  • They're hearing a click in their headphones.

  • They're playing along-- diddle, diddle, diddle, diddle, diddle,

  • diddle, diddle, dana nana nana nana nana nana--

  • and then just, out of the corner of their eye,

  • they're keeping an eye on me as I'm going like this.

  • Dana na nana nana, dana na.

  • And what I want them to get in that split second

  • that they look at me is, if I'm going, then they go, oh, wait,

  • I've got to back way off.

  • It's communicate-- it's almost like dance.

  • Like, I'm communicating through physical motion

  • where they should be on a sort of emotional VU meter.

  • And if everybody's sight reading,

  • you're now losing a take, essentially, to that.

  • Do you know what I mean?

  • And time is money.

  • And you're trying to record--

  • I did a score for a television program last month,

  • and I recorded two hours of music in two days.

  • I mean, we had to fly.

  • So every five minutes I can save by not having

  • to do an extra take, that means in the end

  • I got an extra episode done, essentially.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Cool.

  • Nice.

  • And I guess also, to move on to another part of the process,

  • is the creation of the soundtrack.

  • I personally find the remade "Thomas Crown Affair" one

  • of my all time favorite movies.

  • I loaded the soundtrack, and there was maybe

  • a hint of the melody, but not a whole lot of what I actually

  • remember hearing on film.

  • How do those decisions get made?

  • What are you influenced by when you're

  • creating the soundtrack versus the movie score?

  • MATT SCHRADER: We encountered-- this

  • is one Joe can answer for sure.

  • I think you talked about it briefly in that--

  • in the scene.

  • But there is a different mix that you have.

  • And we've actually encountered a lot of people, as we've--

  • as this film has started to be released that say,

  • I love that the end of whatever it

  • is, "Space Cowboys" or whatever-- but the soundtrack

  • is completely different.

  • It's not the end of it.

  • That's not the right music.

  • They did something else.

  • They took out this, they took out this.

  • And there is a different way that that typically composers

  • will treat a soundtrack as opposed to the film.

  • JOE KRAMER: Yeah I mean, the movie has to work as a film.

  • And there are--

  • Douglas Adams, I think, made a great comparison

  • of film making--

  • the guy who wrote "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy,"

  • where he said, getting a film made in Hollywood

  • is like cooking a steak by having 100 people walk past it

  • and breathe on it.

  • And it is like that.

  • It's slow, and it's tedious, and you never see any progress,

  • and then suddenly the thing is done.

  • But 100 people have all breathed their shtanky breath on it.

  • You know what I mean?

  • And the music is no exception.

  • So the director has what they want for the--

  • start with the composer.

  • The composer has a vision for the score.

  • The director has how they want the music to be.

  • The picture editor has been working with the director

  • since the beginning.

  • They're going to chime in their two cents.

  • In the case of "Mission Impossible,"

  • Tom Cruise is both producer and star, so he has an opinion.

  • The producer-- but the production company, Sky Dance

  • has an opinion.

  • Paramount has an opinion.

  • Perhaps they-- somebody at Paramount

  • might think, oh, would be so great

  • if we get to have Sting do a song in this movie.

  • So now suddenly Sting is in the mix.

  • And it's-- nobody's necessarily got a sinister motive.

  • But they're all thinking of ways, and what they see,

  • and how they could help.

  • So if you have a vision as a composer for a piece of music,

  • film music is not for you.

  • It's very much like, if you're a painter, they go,

  • I want that wall blue.

  • And you go, well, I really think it should be red.

  • I don't care what you think, I want that wall blue.

  • The scene needs it to be blue.

  • And you have to trust that the director is looking

  • at the whole big picture and understanding, yeah, OK, that

  • is blue for a reason.

  • So the soundtrack album, which has nothing to do--

  • necessarily have anything to do with pleasing a director

  • or pleasing producers, it can exist to please the composer.

  • And so I look at the soundtrack CD

  • as an opportunity to show my vision for the score,

  • or as close as I could get to it.

  • MATT SCHRADER: Do you think that reveals something?

  • Do you think that reveals something?

  • JOE KRAMER: Yeah.

  • In "Mission Impossible," I recor--

  • I sometimes recorded two different versions of a queue.

  • I recorded the one that I liked, and I recorded the one

  • that the director wanted for the film.

  • So for example, right in the beginning of the film,

  • there's a scene where a character pops up.

  • And I had a little tune that went like bum, dabadum, daba

  • dabadum, dabadum bum, dabadum.

  • And it drove the director crazy--

  • for whatever reason, he couldn't different-- he

  • couldn't listen to the dialogue with that tune playing.

  • And what finally satisfied him was

  • to have it go bum babadump, diba dabadum, babadam bum--

  • so it didn't change notes.

  • Which underneath the dialogue you didn't really--

  • it worked OK.

  • But on CD, I was like, I'd rather have the one

  • that changes notes because it's more interesting when there's

  • no dialogue on top of it.

  • So a great example, too, is the movie

  • "Alien," where the score in the film

  • is a hodgepodge of rewrites, and music cut from other films,

  • and classical music.

  • And the CD is actually sort of Gerry Goldsmith's vision

  • for what he thought the score to "Alien" should be.

  • Now it can be frustrating as a fan, when you see a movie

  • because you just see the movie.

  • You don't know all this other stuff took place

  • and you're going, I love that music!

  • And then you get the album and it's not there

  • or it's different.

  • And you're like-- you know.

  • And the other thing that's not so much an issue now

  • but used to really be an issue is

  • that you used to have to pay the orchestra twice.

  • Once to use the music in the film,

  • and then if you wanted to put it on CD

  • you had to pay them again, the same amount.

  • That was called the reuse fee.

  • And one of the reasons that London started

  • becoming an attractive option for American film studios

  • was that they--

  • they got rid of the reuse fee.

  • So if you recorded a score in London,

  • you could do whatever you wanted with the music

  • when it was done, whereas in America you could only,

  • you know.

  • So a lot of soundtrack albums, the movie

  • would have 90 minutes of score.

  • And they'd put 28 minutes on the CD

  • because that's all they can afford to repay.

  • So you'll see a lot of [INAUDIBLE] scores

  • from the '90s, they're like 28 minutes

  • long because that was the sweet spot where they could afford

  • to pay, but still make a profit enough to make more scores.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: So then do you write that in the liner

  • notes or something?

  • Like, this was my vision--

  • how can the casual fan understand or realize

  • all that stuff.

  • JOE KRAMER: Well, I would argue there are no casual film music

  • fans.

  • I would argue that--

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Ringtones.

  • JOE KRAMER: Yeah, well, I would say if you're a film music fan,

  • you're probably somewhat fastidious about that stuff

  • anyway.

  • And it depends.

  • I mean like a movie like Titanic,

  • most people probably bought--

  • the reason that had phenomenal sales

  • is not because of the score, no offense to the composer.

  • It's because of the song.

  • Like "Beauty and the Beast," everybody bought that album

  • really for the songs, not necessarily

  • for Menken's admittedly great score.

  • So when you're part of--

  • it's very rare that you have a thing like the original "Star

  • Wars" LP that goes whatever it did, double platinum

  • or whatever.

  • I mean, i was the best selling soundtrack album

  • until "The Bodyguard" I think.

  • And there were no songs, you know what I mean?

  • But that was very rare.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Cool.

  • So we have time for some audience questions.

  • So feel free to--

  • I guess we have one off the bat.

  • We're short on mics, so tell it to me, I'll repeat it,

  • and we'll go from there.

  • So the question, just to repeat for the folks

  • at home was, about the scores.

  • Are they becoming less memorable?

  • Is that a trend?

  • Is that intentional versus "Wizard of Oz" or something?

  • JOE KRAMER: How nerdy do you--

  • an answer do you want?

  • CLIFF REDEKER: We are a nerdy bunch.

  • JOE KRAMER: OK.

  • Steven Spielberg used to make films on Super 8

  • in his neighborhood in New Jersey,

  • in his neighborhood in Arizona.

  • He'd make-- he'd make his version of Iwo Jima.

  • And it was a bunch of 13-year-old kids in blue jeans

  • and green t-shirts with like a plastic helmet that they got

  • at the Woolworth's.

  • And then when he'd show his silent movie,

  • he'd play the record with the orchestral score.

  • And you had to make such a cosmic jump in suspension

  • of disbelief to buy that these kids were

  • fighting on the sands of Iwo Jima that the score--

  • he needed all the help he could get.

  • So having this score play worked for him.

  • And that became a kind of musical scoring for his films

  • that he was comfortable with.

  • What happened is, in the '80s, with like, "Sex, Lies

  • and Videotape" and then the explosion

  • of independent cinema, you had people making movies

  • where these homemade movies were starting to be

  • acceptable on their own terms.

  • Instead of trying to make an assault on Iwo Jima,

  • they were making a movie about five guys hanging out

  • at the diner.

  • And so these films actually could get released.

  • And in order to get released, needed

  • music that could be cleared.

  • So you couldn't just track it with sophisticated film music.

  • You had to find somebody who could write the music for you.

  • And so you found somebody from a rock band,

  • generally, down the street who played

  • keyboards, who could write instrumental

  • music for your film.

  • And they may not have ever thought

  • of being a film composer.

  • They may have just thought, I'm the keyboardist

  • in the bar band.

  • And they end up scoring a movie by basically

  • writing instrumental songs.

  • Not necessarily writing a theme and counterpoint,

  • thinking about orchestration and arranging in the sort of sense

  • that Goldsmith and John Williams and Elmore

  • Bernstein were raised in.

  • They're coming at it from three chord rock.

  • And the epitome of that was Hans Zimmer,

  • who really rock and rolled the film score.

  • And the strings are the rhythm guitar,

  • the horns are the lead singer, and the percussion section

  • is the drummer.

  • And the bottom of the low strings are the bass.

  • And then there's synthesizers and

  • actual, literal, electric guitars in there, too.

  • And in conjunction with that approach

  • from the composing point of view, the filmmakers got--

  • their musical voice became this rock and roll vocabulary

  • rather than operatic film music, classic golden age film music

  • vocabulary.

  • So they didn't think that-- they didn't make films

  • with that sound in mind.

  • Spielberg makes a film, he's thinking

  • of what John Williams is going to bring to it.

  • When Soderberg makes a film, he's

  • thinking about what Cliff Martinez is

  • going to bring to it.

  • You know what I mean?

  • And they're going to bring two totally different things.

  • So I think in that long winded answer

  • is the germ of what you're hearing, which

  • is that the approach now is much more about background

  • instrumental music than necessarily about

  • thematic storytelling from a more conservatory, educated

  • musician.

  • And I hope I said that without insulting that other approach,

  • because I'm not knocking the other approach.

  • They're just two different approaches.

  • And I think the memor--

  • what makes music memorable is a theme.

  • I think first and foremost, it's the theme, or the tune,

  • not necessarily supportive string sustained chords.

  • That's a texture more than a memorable theme.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Yeah.

  • Cool.

  • All right, so there's three questions.

  • We'll go here and then back around.

  • So--

  • AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

  • CLIFF REDEKER: The cook's in the kitchen,

  • and how much input you have when you create a score,

  • pre-packaged versus voices?

  • JOE KRAMER: Christopher McQuarrie,

  • who directed "Way of the Gun," "Jack Reacher" and "Rogue

  • Nation Mission Impossible."

  • So three-- three biggest movies I've done have been with him.

  • He had some experiences where he was really

  • frustrated on films that he'd written,

  • where the score sounded a lot like the temp.

  • And so he devised, as a film maker, and approach-- at least

  • when I worked with him-- of no temp at all.

  • He cuts the film based on the performance of the actors

  • and the writing of the dialogue, and gives it

  • to me with no music.

  • And what's liberating about that is,

  • I can make my own statement.

  • What's daunting about that is, there's no guidance whatsoever.

  • And if I start barking up one tree and Chris hates that tree,

  • I've got to come all the way back down and find another tree

  • and start working up that one.

  • So there's a lot of--

  • there can be a lot of--

  • not wasted energy, but there's a lot of work

  • that is done that never goes anywhere

  • because it was the wrong route.

  • Where temp can really help is when it gets rid of--

  • when the filmmakers have explored their options

  • and have decided no, this is the direction we want to go.

  • That can help a lot.

  • So OK, we know it's going to be orchestral symphonic music.

  • It's not going to be jazz, and it's not

  • going to be rhythmic electric guitar rock music.

  • OK, well, that helps a lot just to know that.

  • I'm trying to think of a film where

  • we had so many people on it with differing visions

  • and I'm actually kind of drawing a blank.

  • I mean--

  • CLIFF REDEKER: They're probably weeded out

  • before the process had started.

  • People jump on the ship.

  • MATT SCHRADER: The studio heads have

  • stories like that, where even they noticed that they've

  • had input from this person, this person, this person,

  • this person.

  • It all ends up being kind of this mish mash of idea.

  • Something that maybe you could see some potential,

  • but it never kind of came to fruition because everyone's

  • like, you do that, you do that.

  • Robert Kraft at Fox would tell us

  • how everyone thinks they're an expert in music

  • because we all like music for the most part.

  • So we're all like, oh, well, I would do this.

  • I like this.

  • I would do this.

  • And to a composer, that is sometimes

  • something that kind of restricts what you can do,

  • if someone says, well, I really like

  • this that's what we should do.

  • JOE KRAMER: The other mistake is thinking

  • that you have to-- either as a composer or a filmmaker--

  • like the music.

  • The job is not to make music that we like, necessarily.

  • It's to make music that works.

  • So I heard an anecdote about one of the Star Wars films

  • that wasn't directed by George Lucas.

  • And somebody who was brought on was like,

  • but I don't really like that John Williams music.

  • And they were like, it doesn't matter if you like it or not.

  • It's not about that.

  • That's the kind of music these movies need.

  • Whether you like it or not, it's been proven,

  • that's the voice of these films.

  • So maybe you like--

  • maybe you don't listen to that for fun

  • and maybe you don't enjoy that.

  • But that's irrelevant.

  • If you're making an action film but you

  • don't like to drive fast, that doesn't

  • mean you'd make everybody drive slow.

  • Do you know what I mean?

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Cool.

  • And so we had some other questions,

  • we'll do the back, back, and front.

  • So go, you, yeah.

  • Yeah.

  • MATT SCHRADER: It's very similar, yeah.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: And just to rephrase the question--

  • and so, to rephrase the question, the idea of remakes

  • is composers imitating themselves, taking extracts

  • from one film, putting it in another.

  • We had some other examples listed.

  • JOE KRAMER: Well, as a composer-- and then I'll go--

  • we have a voice.

  • You know, I have a way of saying things.

  • When David Mamet writes a script,

  • and he writes another script, there's--

  • or Sorkin, you know.

  • There's a voice behind that.

  • And there are certain gestures, you might say,

  • or musical ideas that are going to recur.

  • To give maximum benefit of the doubt to the filmmaker--

  • to the composers in the situations you mentioned,

  • I would say that they were probably

  • encouraged-- heavily encouraged-- by the filmmakers

  • to stick as close to a piece of temp music as they could.

  • And sometimes it's easier when it's your own stuff,

  • and sometimes it's harder actually

  • because you can't see the forest for the trees.

  • See what I mean?

  • Now, I'm going to show some ignorance here.

  • The Max Richter stuff was written as concert music,

  • wasn't it?

  • And then tracked into the film.

  • So that's-- right, so that's slightly different,

  • because I think it's also in "Shutter Island," right?

  • Do you know?

  • But I think it was-- it's like Arvo Part.

  • It was written for the concert hall, I believe.

  • I could be totally wrong.

  • Right.

  • So I mean, like you'll see Habanera from Carmen

  • is in every-- dan dan danan, dadan da dadan.

  • You'll hear that.

  • It was in "Scent of a Woman," but it's in everything.

  • You know what I mean?

  • Where they take a piece of classical music

  • that they love and they use in a film.

  • But then somebody sees that and loves that and goes,

  • oh, that's classical music?

  • I could just use that?

  • Great!

  • And then you'll see cases where the composer was encouraged

  • to copy the temp and they just couldn't do it,

  • so they've gone and bought the temp.

  • So like in the movie "Die Hard," when the blond bad guy jumps up

  • at the end of the movie, you think he's dead

  • and he jumps up with the gun and starts going nuts--

  • they just bought the music from Aliens

  • that they had temped in, because for whatever

  • reason, the director and the composer

  • could not come up with a solution together.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Actually there is a--

  • on the topic of voice, because we entered this film

  • with the idea of, OK, I know what a Hans Zimmer

  • score sounds like.

  • I know what-- you know, there are a certain number of people

  • I can always--

  • almost always, I should say, identify John Williams.

  • I can, a lot of the times identify, Danny Elfman.

  • I can usually identify Thomas Newman.

  • A lot of these guys have a very kind of a signature style

  • if they're given--

  • you can do anything in the world for this film,

  • it's still going to sound like them.

  • And we tried to tap into that a couple of times,

  • including at Hans-- we kind of wanted

  • to know what Hans sounded like.

  • And so we-- but we thought about this with a few composers.

  • Some composers struggled with it,

  • but we asked them to just play something

  • and didn't give them any direction, really,

  • but kind of wanted to see where they went.

  • And a few of them--

  • usually on a piano-- but a few of them, including Hans,

  • you can tell--

  • and it's in the end of our movie--

  • but you can tell from the chords that he picks,

  • it sounds very Hans Zimmer.

  • It's a lot of long, kind of sustained chords.

  • But even the direction that he goes in making something up

  • for-- this is something for nothing,

  • it's just some people with cameras pointed at him.

  • It's never going to air anywhere.

  • But it sounds like the progression

  • that he would use in a movie.

  • So you can almost identify even that,

  • something that's 30 seconds long-- oh, yeah,

  • that sounds like Hans Zimmer.

  • So I think a lot of composers do have that unique voice

  • that you can pick up on even if sometimes it's

  • directly used in another film, but even if it's not.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: And speaking of the unique voice,

  • too, if you look at the "Mission Impossible" suite,

  • how do you approach composing each one?

  • Like, there's a core theme from the TV show

  • that kind of has to be there.

  • But are you-- do you feel forced to make

  • something sound completely different,

  • or do you like a sibling relationship

  • between the films, or--?

  • JOE KRAMER: Well, to speak specifically about Mission,

  • I actually-- it drives me nuts when

  • you go to one of these reboot or sequels

  • and they've gotten a different composer

  • from who did the original.

  • And they try to put the music from the original in.

  • And it usually ends up sounding like they've literally

  • just gone and gotten the sheet music from the first movie

  • and handed it to all the musicians and said,

  • just play this.

  • As opposed to actually organically

  • integrating that into this new score.

  • And so with Mission, it was really important to me--

  • it didn't necessarily help my career,

  • but it was really important to me

  • that you couldn't necessarily tell

  • where Lalo ended and I began.

  • Because I didn't want it to be like,

  • oh, it's Joe Kramer, Joe Kramer, Joe Kramer, Lalo Schifrin!

  • Brilliant!

  • Joe Kramer, Joe Kramer, Joe Kramer-- you know.

  • So I worked really hard to--

  • when Lalo would come in and out.

  • So, I mean, I embarked on a sort of reverse engineering

  • of the theme.

  • And breaking it down into its core pieces,

  • and then using those core pieces kind of like refrigerator

  • magnet poetry to create new music for the film.

  • And as a result, my hope was that what you would get is--

  • yeah, it's the same words, but I'm making new sentences

  • with those words.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: And for the documentary "King Cohen"

  • that you're working on, too, it's an historical perspective.

  • It's things that appeared on screen,

  • so it suggests something already.

  • In a sense it's a documentary medium.

  • Do you just feel compelled to go with the flow?

  • Or how would you strike out on your own?

  • JOE KRAMER: Well, you know, that was a movie--

  • to the gentleman who had been asking about too many cooks.

  • It wasn't necessarily that we had too many cooks,

  • but there were two interesting things on that film.

  • One was that the filmmakers were big film music fans.

  • And so they were very excited to finally get a chance

  • to actually help create--

  • participate in the creation of a score.

  • And I kept having to tell them like, guys, this film, we're

  • not necessarily going to be making music you actually like.

  • Like, I just wanted to warn them.

  • And in a documentary, music can often be just practical.

  • What we're doing is, we're cutting in and out of a movie.

  • And we cut-- we have a scene from a movie,

  • then we have a talking head, and then

  • we have another scene from the movie,

  • then a talking head, and then another scene from the movie.

  • And it sounds weird to have the score--

  • because a lot of these movies were

  • done so long ago and so cheaply that we don't have

  • the original elements anymore.

  • We've only got the finished movie.

  • So there was no way to get the dialogue without the score.

  • You know what I mean?

  • It was all or nothing.

  • So what I had to do was composed little bits of music

  • that could go under the talking head

  • to glue the whole thing together.

  • So that you'd come out of a clip from the movie,

  • I'd have the music in a sympathetic chord

  • and a similar sound play under the dialogue,

  • and then come back for the thing, for the next clip.

  • And sometimes they liked that and sometimes they

  • didn't, and then--

  • I actually haven't seen the finished film.

  • So I don't know how they ended up doing it,

  • because I gave them a couple of choices.

  • But yeah, it was a practical thing there

  • of just trying to make stuff glue together.

  • There was another film I worked on where

  • they had a thing from SNL, and they could get the clip.

  • It was for a Ralph Nader documentary.

  • They could get a clip of him talking,

  • but they couldn't use any of the music.

  • So when they came back from commercial with the screen

  • and it's the bluesy sax stuff, I'd make all that

  • and then figure out a way to get out

  • of that and into the dialogue from Nader.

  • So it's practical.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Right.

  • So I think we have two final questions.

  • So we'll go with Bob Hurby, the president of the Mountain View

  • Film Society first.

  • True or not, did Hitchcock hate the--

  • JOE KRAMER: I haven't heard that he hated it,

  • but I do know that he was really happy with what--

  • and Hitchcock's a great example of what I talk about.

  • In modern film, this--

  • the hauteur has sort of run rampant.

  • And now everybody on a film is there to realize the directors

  • vision.

  • And what I'm supposed to do is write music

  • that the director would write, if he could write music.

  • And what Hitchcock did was, he was like, I'm not even

  • going to try to write music.

  • Bernard Hermann knows what he's doing.

  • Let him write music, and even if it's not what I'm expecting

  • or what I want, when I hear it, oh, yeah, that's great,

  • I never-- you know.

  • So I do think that he was impressed with that.

  • I do know they had a falling out, so--

  • but I can't say for sure that he hated the shower

  • scene until he saw it.

  • I do know that Joe Stefano, I think

  • it is, who wrote the book--

  • they had a screening of the rough cut

  • before the score was done and Stefano

  • after the screening was like, oh, my god, it's terrible.

  • And Hitchcock was like, no, no, no, wait.

  • This is the rough cut.

  • When you see it with the music and the sound,

  • you won't-- it'll be a different movie.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: So our last question in the back.

  • How do you [INAUDIBLE] your workload?

  • JOE KRAMER: I work in Sonar on a PC.

  • I'm the only composer I know who does that, but I learned it

  • when I was young and I just--

  • old dog can't--

  • I could learn logic.

  • I could learn-- my music editor is constantly on me to learn

  • Cubase and maybe I will.

  • But for now, I fly on it, because I have all my hotkeys

  • programmed that all that stuff.

  • So what I do is, I watch the film.

  • We have what's called a spotting session, where we discuss

  • where we think music will be and where it should go

  • and where it'll be quiet, and what the music will kind of be.

  • Will it be a sad score?

  • will it be-- is it a sad movie where we want a happier score

  • to help offset that?

  • Or is it a comedy, where we want the music to actually be like--

  • again, this latest project is a comedy.

  • It's a sort of satire on cop shows from the '80s.

  • So I did everything acoustically like a late '70s,

  • like "Rockford Files" or such, you know, "SWAT."

  • And the music is very straight.

  • If you hear the music away from the film,

  • much like the score to "Airplane."

  • If you hear that score away from the film,

  • it sounds like it's a disaster movie, not for a comedy.

  • So we'll have that discussion.

  • Then I live with the film.

  • I watch the film as much as possible.

  • Sometimes with the temp, more often without the temp,

  • and just start to learn the rhythm of the film

  • and pick up on connections.

  • Something the character says here that pays off there,

  • you know what I mean?

  • And I start thinking about--

  • I have a whole series of sort of mnemonics

  • that I go through in my brain to help

  • me start coming up with ideas.

  • So if it's a heroic character, the theme

  • is probably going to be kind of uplifting,

  • and it's going to have intervals in it of leaps.

  • If it's a sad movie, then it's obviously--

  • if it's a laconic sort of dour theme, that

  • might be almost like a waltz, but a sad, minor key waltz.

  • And I develop this material and I

  • keep a journal on the piano, where

  • I write all this stuff down.

  • And then usually when they're so mad at me

  • that I haven't shown them anything to picture yet,

  • I then finally start working to picture.

  • And I've got-- what I've got is like a cheat sheet of all

  • this thematic notation that I've done.

  • And I start drawing stuff up against it

  • and seeing what sticks.

  • And then I start making the cues.

  • And at that point, I've got my time line

  • where I go, OK, I've got to do 15

  • seconds of contemplative music, and then

  • he makes the decisions.

  • So then it becomes 20 seconds of definitive music

  • as he marches down the hall to talk to his boss.

  • And then he goes in the boss's office

  • and the boss is running around with the secretary,

  • so it's funny music for a few seconds.

  • You know what I mean?

  • So at that point-- and I'm doing all this stuff in Sonar.

  • And I may-- I have a template set up that mimics a symphony

  • orchestra or whatever ensemble I'm using

  • for this particular assignment.

  • And then I create a mock-up that sounds

  • as real as I could make it sound in a reasonable amount of time.

  • And I then do as much of that as I can for as much of the movie

  • as I can.

  • And then I have the director come over,

  • and we just watch it, from beginning to end, like a movie,

  • with as little interruption as possible.

  • Then we roll back and start going through,

  • measure by measure, scene by scene,

  • however it used to be done, to discuss

  • what works for the director and what doesn't work.

  • Now what I found recently is helping

  • a lot is to actually just email it to them.

  • Have their editors put in the film

  • and let them live with it for a week before we talk about it.

  • Because often what happens is, the first thing they think

  • is, it's not the temp.

  • It's not the temp, and now everything

  • I hate about the scene, I hate again,

  • because the temp fixed it all and this isn't fixing it all.

  • And it's not that.

  • It's that they're just seeing all the flaws, because that's

  • what they--

  • they made this thing and they can see

  • all the cracks in the paint.

  • John Lennon hated Sergeant Pepper, but he

  • was the only one, because he could see all the--

  • he could see behind the curtain.

  • So what I find is, if I let them live with it for a week,

  • then a lot of that panic that they got goes away

  • and they actually start looking at it on its own terms

  • and saying, no, all right, I see why you did that.

  • I see why you-- and we couldn't do that with the temp,

  • because no one else had done that before

  • and we couldn't find a piece of temp that turned that way.

  • There's a back and forth of revision.

  • When the queue is locked up--

  • I'm sorry this is so long winded-- that

  • is sent to the orchestrator as a MIDI file.

  • They open it up in Sibelius or Finale,

  • and they then adapt my MIDI performances

  • into notation which is then printed out and distributed

  • to the musicians at the session.

  • And that can happen, like in the case of the motorcycle chase

  • in "Mission Impossible," that had to happen

  • in less than 12 hours.

  • MATT SCHRADER: The orchestrator doesn't sleep.

  • Not very much.

  • JOE KRAMER: But they know.

  • It comes with-- they get paid for that.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Awesome stuff.

  • Well, I invite you all to check out the documentary.

  • We'll have it up on Google Play, wherever movies are shown.

  • And of course, now I hope you have

  • an even deeper appreciation for the music

  • and the themes behind the score of the film.

  • So, Matt, Joe, thank you very much for speaking

  • with us today.

  • MATT SCHRADER: Thank you.

  • CLIFF REDEKER: Thank you.

  • MATT SCHRADER: Thank you.

  • [APPLAUSE]

[MUSIC PLAYING]

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