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Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business and life you love.
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You know, my guest today found himself riding high on some career wins, but inside he was
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feeling empty and alone. He’s here today to share some lessons he’s learned about
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how the masks that we can all wear keep us from being our best.
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Lewis Howes is a former professional football player turned lifestyle entrepreneur. He’s
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the author of the New York Times bestseller, The School of Greatness, with a popular podcast
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of the same name. Lewis is a contributing writer for Entrepreneur and has been featured
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on The Today Show, Fast Company, ESPN, Sports Illustrated, and Men’s Health, among others.
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His newest book, The Mask of Masculinity: How Men Can Embrace Vulnerability, Create
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Strong Relationships, And Live Their Fullest Lives, is available now.
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Hey, Lewis.
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Good to see you, Marie.
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So good to see you. I’m so excited that we’re finally doing this.
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Me too. Thanks for having me. Of course. It’s been, it’s been a while,
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so I want to start at the top with this book, The Masks of Masculinity. Tell us what was
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the inspiration to write this one? Because it’s a departure from your last book and
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most of the topics.
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Yeah. The inspiration came from a darker pain that I think you’re aware of that I started
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talking about a few years ago where my whole life I felt like I needed to achieve certain
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things, to fit in, to be accepted, to be welcomed as a part of the community – whether it
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be in school, with classmates, to teammates in sports, to the business world. I always
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felt like I needed to fit in. And by doing so I needed to prove myself to the people
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to fit in and to be accepted.
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And so I was very driven to achieve, and it worked. That drive allowed me to get certain
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results, but every time I achieved those results I never felt happy inside, I never felt fulfilled.
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I didn't feel like, “Oh, I've figured it out now that I’ve got this thing.” Like
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I had inner peace. I never had inner peace. I felt like I was always alone, always suffering
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and resentful and angry when I would achieve. It was almost as if like the moment I achieved
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the things I wanted to achieve, I was the least happy. And I never understood why. So
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I said “I need bigger goals, I need bigger dreams. I need – maybe it’s not big enough.”
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Right?
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Right. Like you’re not dreaming big enough.
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Yeah.
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You don't have the vision big enough.
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Exactly. So let me keep going.
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Yeah.
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And so in my 20s and late 20s I just kept going bigger and bigger. And still, every
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time I would achieve something or certain marks that I set for myself, it wasn’t enough
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inside. And I didn't understand why. I just figured this is the way it is. This is who
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I am. This is what life is all about.
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And I didn't have that awareness until four … about four and a half years ago, kind
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of everything went south for me. You know, I was achieving at the highest levels in my
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business. I, you know, I was achieving athletically my dream playing with the USA Handball team.
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I had, you know, the beautiful girlfriend. I had like what – I had a lot of money.
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What a lot of guys would think of like that "He’s made it. He’s making it." But
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I was in a terrible just darkness inside. I didn't know how to handle my inner world.
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My outer world looked good. My inner world was sick.
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I think it’s interesting just to note for folks, because a lot of us, you know, especially
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when you don't come from a lot and, you know, doesn't matter if it’s middle class, poor,
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anywhere on that spectrum, and then you start to achieve. It’s like a lot of people go,
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“Oh, it’s easy for you to say.” You know, “you have all the things now. Oh,
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but boo hoo inside.”
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But I think it’s important to make the point. I’ve certainly noticed this from so many
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people that I’ve interviewed, books that I’ve read, folks that I know in my personal
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life, that no matter how much is happening or appearing to happen on the outside, it
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cannot make up for some of the deep pain and suffering that’s happening on the inside
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that a lot of times you just don't know about.
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And a lot of the people that are so driven, that are successful, usually comes from some
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type of darker pain or something to prove.
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Yeah.
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Which was where I was coming from. So it all kind of came crashing down when – it’s
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funny, because I’m having like a deja vu moment with you. Because I actually was sitting
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with you I think at a coffee shop nearby when I was like, “you know, I’m thinking about
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moving to LA.”
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Yes.
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Do you remember this conversation?
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Totally. Of course I do.
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I was like, “What do you think? Give me your advice, because I really look up to you
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and I appreciate your wisdom.” So I was like, “What do you think? I’m in love
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with this girl. Like, I don't know but things are going well here in New York City. She
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wants me to be in LA. I don't know what to do.” And you’re like, “You know what?
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Just go for it. Like, just go for it, because you don't want to regret it.” And you told
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me to really listen to my intuition. And I was like, “You know, maybe I’ll try it
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out.” You know, I wasn’t sure. I was kind of torn. You told me to go for it, and I did,
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and I’m very glad I did because it allowed me to open – it got me to my darkest place.
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Yes.
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It allowed me to see what was working and what wasn’t working.
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Yeah.
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And the relationship was very toxic afterwards, but I didn't know how to emotionally communicate
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in the relationship and express myself in a healthy way.
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Yeah.
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So when things weren’t going well I just didn't feel like I couldn't even talk to her.
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I felt like I wasn’t able to express myself for whatever reason. And what I would do is
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I would take that anger out into the world. I wouldn't be angry with her or get in a fight
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with her. I would take it out in the sports world when I was playing basketball, in business
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with my friends. I would take it out elsewhere on people.
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And I was very angry, resentful, and passive aggressive. And so the relationship was very
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toxic for me because I didn’t know how to emotionally communicate. I was angry, resentful,
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my business relationship was crumbling, and I started to get in a lot of fights. I started
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to get very aggressive with everyone. Any time someone would attack me or give me a
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comment online that I didn't like or say “give me feedback,” it was like I had to defend
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myself with everything. The point where I got in a fight on a basketball court, and
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that literally shook my world. Because I could have lost everything. You know.
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It was a fist fight.
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A fist fight. A physical fight. For months it was like I was walking down the street
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looking for people to look at me weird so I could fight them. I kind of had that aggression.
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I was like, “You trying to look at me? You trying to step to me?” or whatever. And,
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you know, finally in this basketball game I got in a fight. And I gave myself the justification
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that he hit me first, so it was okay to hit back. Right? Since he hit me first, it was
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okay to hit back. But I didn't know when to stop. And I finally got pulled off the fight
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and I looked at the guy and saw his face completely, you know, just bloody. Blood all over the
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courts, all over my hands. And I started shaking. And I was just like, you know, “what did
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I just do? What did I just do? Everything could go wrong from this moment forward.”
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You know, the police station was actually right across the street from this place. And
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I was like what happens if they saw this? What – you know, what if I go to jail?
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I actually ran home like a coward. I couldn't even face him or anyone else there. I ran
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home like a coward, washed the blood off my hands, looked at myself in the mirror, and
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was just like, “Who are you? Who are you? What are you doing? Why are you so angry?”
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Like, it all started to come together where it was the catalyst for me to start looking
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within. Kind of months and months of this toxic relationship, this being aggressive
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with people, constantly being defensive online or offline, that moment was the catalyst for
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me to say, “Okay, I need to look within and start seeing what I can do to do things
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differently.”
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So that’s when I, you know, hired therapists and coaches and went to emotional intelligence
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workshops, started asking my friends and family for feedback. I said, “Give me feedback.
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I want to hear how I can be better.” I think for so many years I didn't want anyone to
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tell me how to change. I just said this is who I am. Accept me for who I am.
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Yeah.
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And that was the catalyst for me wanting to talk about this. Because during that process
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of opening up myself and learning about why I was so defensive or guarded or aggressive
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my whole life – now, listen. I was a very loving, fun guy. You knew me before then.
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Absolutely.
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Always loving and fun, but it was like those moments where I was triggered, it was like
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I didn’t know how to turn it off.
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Yeah.
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And I never understood why.
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And then it sounds like from reading the book, there was also a pivotal moment as you were
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searching in your own journey and starting to discover, “oh, my goodness. How do I
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release this anger? How do I not have these triggers? How do I find real happiness? Because
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all the bullshit materialism clearly ain’t doing it.” You stumbled upon a documentary
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that made a huge impact.
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Yeah, yeah. The Mask You Live In is a powerful documentary that started having these conversations
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more and more. With boys, with teens, with men in prison, with all types of men and boys
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about how we’ve been developed and conditioned to become men in a certain way.
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How ... what it means to be a man in our society, specifically in America. And I think my whole
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life I was conditioned a certain way to act and to not act. You know, when you’re 7
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years old and your parents tell you to go be kind at school to kids, and then you're
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trying to be nice to people and express yourself and you get shoved in a locker. You say, “okay,
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I don't want to do that anymore if I’m not gonna be accepted.”
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Yeah.
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Not saying that happened to me, but that’s just kind of like the pattern that kids go
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through. Where they’re generous, they’re kind, they’re compassionate, they’re caring,
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maybe they show emotion, and then they get made fun of.
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Yeah.
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You know, in the sports teams growing up you weren’t allowed to show emotion. You weren’t
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allowed to cry, because men don't cry. And the names that you’re called for even acting
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like you have any emotions or like you’re sensitive at all was that you were less than
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a man. They would call you all sorts of names. And so just to fit in, just to be accepted
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by your peers, you had to act a certain way to be cool or to fit in. And I think for me
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that carried on into other areas of my life. I couldn’t just turn it off after those three hours of practice.
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Yeah.
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Then it was with my family at home. I had to act cool. It was with my girlfriends, I
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had to act a certain way. It was with guy friends. I never fully opened up with guys.
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I didn't have one good guy friend where I could tell anything.
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I think 50% of men feel that they don't have a guy friend that they can share stuff with,
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whereas women in general, I see you guys getting together every day and talking about things
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you’re insecure about and the fears you have and frustrations you’re feeling from
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relationships or life or image issues or whatever it may be. You’re talking about these things.
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Whereas I personally never talked about them. And a lot of the guys that I grew up with
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never talked about any of their insecurities or fears or doubts or concerns, because that’s
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not what it means to be a man. You’re not allowed to show vulnerabilities, at least
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growing up the way I did.
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And as I started having these conversations with other men I realized, wow. This is like
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almost every guy that I meet faces this. Except for a few guys who grew up like on a farm
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or like in a spiritual retreat center where their parents were so loving and open and
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wanted them to be more expressive. But for the majority of guys that I know and that
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I grew up with, that wasn’t the case.
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And when I started opening up, you know, four years ago I started telling people that I
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was sexually abused and raped by a man when I was five years old. And this is when everything
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started to shift for me, because that was the secret I was unwilling to share, and that
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secret just manifested into toxicity inside of me where I didn't know how to express myself
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in a loving way when I was hurt. So the opposite of love is some type of anger, passive aggressiveness,
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frustration, and that’s the only way I knew how to communicate when I was feeling pain.
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And I think there was – and as I started to open up about this and share with my friends,
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with my family, and then more publicly over the months, something incredible happened.
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So many men would open up back to me. You know, I was terrified to tell people what
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had happened to me, because I was so ashamed. I felt guilty, I felt insecure, I felt like
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no one was gonna love me anymore. They weren’t going to accept me. But when I started to
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share, men would tell me their deepest, darkest secrets, their biggest insecurities, their
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pain, the things they suffered with, and they would tell me, you know, “I’ve judged
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you for so long and now I trust you. Like, I fully trust you now.” Men were like, “I
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will follow you anywhere now that I know this about you and you’re willing to talk about it.”
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I would get emails and just essays from men saying, you know, “I’ve been married for
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25 years. My wife doesn't know that I was sexually abused or that I went through this
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other thing.” It wasn’t always sexual abuse, but the men have gone through a lot
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of things that they feel like they’re unable to express and talk about.
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And I realized, wow, the more I start to share with my friends and family for them to actually
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see me for the first time and just know me, know what I’ve gone through, know what I’ve
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felt, I feel like I’m finally able to be myself. And the more I started to share, the
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more I started to heal, and the less those moments or those insecurities had control
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over me. I was able to take my power back, and it’s been an amazing transition.
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And so I felt like this was more of like a responsibility for me to talk about this thing.
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Over anything else I’d do, this was more of a process for me to talk about this, for
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me to continue to heal, for me to hold myself accountable. Because even though I started
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to share and heal, last week I’m getting triggered and like aggressive and angry. And,
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you know, passive aggressive still.
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Patterns exist, and especially ones that we’ve had over the course of our lives.
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Exactly.
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You know, 10, 20, 30, 40 years you’ve been doing something one way, it is – it’s
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a journey and a process to start to unwire that stuff.
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Exactly.
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So I love that though, because there is something I think really powerful, right, about like
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taking a stand and saying, “Okay, I’m gonna talk about this and I’m also gonna
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use this as an opportunity to hold myself to a higher standard. I might not get it perfect,
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but at least now I’ve declared like, okay, this is what I’m working on. This is what
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I’m gonna share. This is what I’m gonna keep sharing. This is what I’m gonna keep
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going for in my own life.” I think that that’s incredible. And I want to put this
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in a larger context.
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So beyond your own journey, and we’re touching upon this a little bit, but what do you see
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and what have you seen from writing this book and from talking to so many men and boys about
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what’s not working for them in terms of our culture today?
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In general men don't feel like they’re allowed to express themselves in a more vulnerable
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way because of whatever conditioning they’ve had. It may be them from their peers in high
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school or sports or parents saying, you know, “boys don't cry.” Whatever it is that
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they heard or people said or something that was conditioning. And it’s translated into
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the rest of their life. At work, in business, relationships.
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You know, I’ll speak for myself, I came from a place of win-lose. I had to win in
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sports, and if I lost it was an attack on my identity that I wasn’t good enough. And
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so I took that in every other part of my life. In relationships with girlfriends, I had to
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win. Even if it was like a fun little contest or competition we were doing, it was like
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no. I had to like show you I was gonna win. And that never makes the other person feel good.
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And I had to be right. Even when I was wrong, I had to be right in relationships and business
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and whatever, because that was a form of winning. And it got me the results that I was looking
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for. I won a lot and I was right a lot, but it left me feeling very alone because I was
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hurting everyone else in those moments. So it was working in terms of getting me those
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results I wanted, but when relationships