You know, my guest today found himself riding high on some career wins, but inside he was

feeling empty and alone. He’s here today to share some lessons he’s learned about

how the masks that we can all wear keep us from being our best.

Lewis Howes is a former professional football player turned lifestyle entrepreneur. He’s

the author of the New York Times bestseller, The School of Greatness, with a popular podcast

of the same name. Lewis is a contributing writer for Entrepreneur and has been featured

on The Today Show, Fast Company, ESPN, Sports Illustrated, and Men’s Health, among others.

His newest book, The Mask of Masculinity: How Men Can Embrace Vulnerability, Create

Strong Relationships, And Live Their Fullest Lives, is available now.

Hey, Lewis.

Good to see you, Marie.

So good to see you. I’m so excited that we’re finally doing this.

Me too. Thanks for having me. Of course. It’s been, it’s been a while,

so I want to start at the top with this book, The Masks of Masculinity. Tell us what was

the inspiration to write this one? Because it’s a departure from your last book and

most of the topics.

Yeah. The inspiration came from a darker pain that I think you’re aware of that I started

talking about a few years ago where my whole life I felt like I needed to achieve certain

things, to fit in, to be accepted, to be welcomed as a part of the community – whether it

be in school, with classmates, to teammates in sports, to the business world. I always

felt like I needed to fit in. And by doing so I needed to prove myself to the people

to fit in and to be accepted.

And so I was very driven to achieve, and it worked. That drive allowed me to get certain

results, but every time I achieved those results I never felt happy inside, I never felt fulfilled.

I didn't feel like, “Oh, I've figured it out now that I’ve got this thing.” Like

I had inner peace. I never had inner peace. I felt like I was always alone, always suffering

and resentful and angry when I would achieve. It was almost as if like the moment I achieved

the things I wanted to achieve, I was the least happy. And I never understood why. So

I said “I need bigger goals, I need bigger dreams. I need – maybe it’s not big enough.”

Right?

Right. Like you’re not dreaming big enough.

Yeah.

You don't have the vision big enough.

Exactly. So let me keep going.

Yeah.

And so in my 20s and late 20s I just kept going bigger and bigger. And still, every

time I would achieve something or certain marks that I set for myself, it wasn’t enough

inside. And I didn't understand why. I just figured this is the way it is. This is who

I am. This is what life is all about.

And I didn't have that awareness until four … about four and a half years ago, kind

of everything went south for me. You know, I was achieving at the highest levels in my

business. I, you know, I was achieving athletically my dream playing with the USA Handball team.

I had, you know, the beautiful girlfriend. I had like what – I had a lot of money.

What a lot of guys would think of like that "He’s made it. He’s making it." But

I was in a terrible just darkness inside. I didn't know how to handle my inner world.

My outer world looked good. My inner world was sick.

I think it’s interesting just to note for folks, because a lot of us, you know, especially

when you don't come from a lot and, you know, doesn't matter if it’s middle class, poor,

anywhere on that spectrum, and then you start to achieve. It’s like a lot of people go,

“Oh, it’s easy for you to say.” You know, “you have all the things now. Oh,

but boo hoo inside.”

But I think it’s important to make the point. I’ve certainly noticed this from so many

people that I’ve interviewed, books that I’ve read, folks that I know in my personal

life, that no matter how much is happening or appearing to happen on the outside, it

cannot make up for some of the deep pain and suffering that’s happening on the inside

that a lot of times you just don't know about.

And a lot of the people that are so driven, that are successful, usually comes from some

type of darker pain or something to prove.

Yeah.

Which was where I was coming from. So it all kind of came crashing down when – it’s

funny, because I’m having like a deja vu moment with you. Because I actually was sitting

with you I think at a coffee shop nearby when I was like, “you know, I’m thinking about

moving to LA.”

Yes.

Do you remember this conversation?

Totally. Of course I do.

I was like, “What do you think? Give me your advice, because I really look up to you

and I appreciate your wisdom.” So I was like, “What do you think? I’m in love

with this girl. Like, I don't know but things are going well here in New York City. She

wants me to be in LA. I don't know what to do.” And you’re like, “You know what?

Just go for it. Like, just go for it, because you don't want to regret it.” And you told

me to really listen to my intuition. And I was like, “You know, maybe I’ll try it

out.” You know, I wasn’t sure. I was kind of torn. You told me to go for it, and I did,

and I’m very glad I did because it allowed me to open – it got me to my darkest place.

Yes.

It allowed me to see what was working and what wasn’t working.

Yeah.

And the relationship was very toxic afterwards, but I didn't know how to emotionally communicate

in the relationship and express myself in a healthy way.

Yeah.

So when things weren’t going well I just didn't feel like I couldn't even talk to her.

I felt like I wasn’t able to express myself for whatever reason. And what I would do is

I would take that anger out into the world. I wouldn't be angry with her or get in a fight

with her. I would take it out in the sports world when I was playing basketball, in business

with my friends. I would take it out elsewhere on people.

And I was very angry, resentful, and passive aggressive. And so the relationship was very

toxic for me because I didn’t know how to emotionally communicate. I was angry, resentful,

my business relationship was crumbling, and I started to get in a lot of fights. I started

to get very aggressive with everyone. Any time someone would attack me or give me a

comment online that I didn't like or say “give me feedback,” it was like I had to defend

myself with everything. The point where I got in a fight on a basketball court, and

that literally shook my world. Because I could have lost everything. You know.

It was a fist fight.

A fist fight. A physical fight. For months it was like I was walking down the street

looking for people to look at me weird so I could fight them. I kind of had that aggression.

I was like, “You trying to look at me? You trying to step to me?” or whatever. And,

you know, finally in this basketball game I got in a fight. And I gave myself the justification

that he hit me first, so it was okay to hit back. Right? Since he hit me first, it was

okay to hit back. But I didn't know when to stop. And I finally got pulled off the fight

and I looked at the guy and saw his face completely, you know, just bloody. Blood all over the

courts, all over my hands. And I started shaking. And I was just like, you know, “what did

I just do? What did I just do? Everything could go wrong from this moment forward.”

You know, the police station was actually right across the street from this place. And

I was like what happens if they saw this? What – you know, what if I go to jail?

I actually ran home like a coward. I couldn't even face him or anyone else there. I ran

home like a coward, washed the blood off my hands, looked at myself in the mirror, and

was just like, “Who are you? Who are you? What are you doing? Why are you so angry?”

Like, it all started to come together where it was the catalyst for me to start looking

within. Kind of months and months of this toxic relationship, this being aggressive

with people, constantly being defensive online or offline, that moment was the catalyst for

me to say, “Okay, I need to look within and start seeing what I can do to do things

differently.”

So that’s when I, you know, hired therapists and coaches and went to emotional intelligence

workshops, started asking my friends and family for feedback. I said, “Give me feedback.

I want to hear how I can be better.” I think for so many years I didn't want anyone to

tell me how to change. I just said this is who I am. Accept me for who I am.

Yeah.

And that was the catalyst for me wanting to talk about this. Because during that process

of opening up myself and learning about why I was so defensive or guarded or aggressive

my whole life – now, listen. I was a very loving, fun guy. You knew me before then.

Absolutely.

Always loving and fun, but it was like those moments where I was triggered, it was like

I didn’t know how to turn it off.

Yeah.

And I never understood why.

And then it sounds like from reading the book, there was also a pivotal moment as you were

searching in your own journey and starting to discover, “oh, my goodness. How do I

release this anger? How do I not have these triggers? How do I find real happiness? Because

all the bullshit materialism clearly ain’t doing it.” You stumbled upon a documentary

that made a huge impact.

Yeah, yeah. The Mask You Live In is a powerful documentary that started having these conversations

more and more. With boys, with teens, with men in prison, with all types of men and boys

about how we’ve been developed and conditioned to become men in a certain way.

How ... what it means to be a man in our society, specifically in America. And I think my whole

life I was conditioned a certain way to act and to not act. You know, when you’re 7

years old and your parents tell you to go be kind at school to kids, and then you're

trying to be nice to people and express yourself and you get shoved in a locker. You say, “okay,

I don't want to do that anymore if I’m not gonna be accepted.”

Yeah.

Not saying that happened to me, but that’s just kind of like the pattern that kids go

through. Where they’re generous, they’re kind, they’re compassionate, they’re caring,

maybe they show emotion, and then they get made fun of.

Yeah.

You know, in the sports teams growing up you weren’t allowed to show emotion. You weren’t

allowed to cry, because men don't cry. And the names that you’re called for even acting

like you have any emotions or like you’re sensitive at all was that you were less than

a man. They would call you all sorts of names. And so just to fit in, just to be accepted

by your peers, you had to act a certain way to be cool or to fit in. And I think for me

that carried on into other areas of my life. I couldn’t just turn it off after those three hours of practice.

Yeah.

Then it was with my family at home. I had to act cool. It was with my girlfriends, I

had to act a certain way. It was with guy friends. I never fully opened up with guys.

I didn't have one good guy friend where I could tell anything.

I think 50% of men feel that they don't have a guy friend that they can share stuff with,

whereas women in general, I see you guys getting together every day and talking about things

you’re insecure about and the fears you have and frustrations you’re feeling from

relationships or life or image issues or whatever it may be. You’re talking about these things.

Whereas I personally never talked about them. And a lot of the guys that I grew up with

never talked about any of their insecurities or fears or doubts or concerns, because that’s

not what it means to be a man. You’re not allowed to show vulnerabilities, at least

growing up the way I did.

And as I started having these conversations with other men I realized, wow. This is like

almost every guy that I meet faces this. Except for a few guys who grew up like on a farm

or like in a spiritual retreat center where their parents were so loving and open and

wanted them to be more expressive. But for the majority of guys that I know and that

I grew up with, that wasn’t the case.

And when I started opening up, you know, four years ago I started telling people that I

was sexually abused and raped by a man when I was five years old. And this is when everything

started to shift for me, because that was the secret I was unwilling to share, and that

secret just manifested into toxicity inside of me where I didn't know how to express myself

in a loving way when I was hurt. So the opposite of love is some type of anger, passive aggressiveness,

frustration, and that’s the only way I knew how to communicate when I was feeling pain.

And I think there was – and as I started to open up about this and share with my friends,

with my family, and then more publicly over the months, something incredible happened.

So many men would open up back to me. You know, I was terrified to tell people what

had happened to me, because I was so ashamed. I felt guilty, I felt insecure, I felt like

no one was gonna love me anymore. They weren’t going to accept me. But when I started to

share, men would tell me their deepest, darkest secrets, their biggest insecurities, their

pain, the things they suffered with, and they would tell me, you know, “I’ve judged

you for so long and now I trust you. Like, I fully trust you now.” Men were like, “I

will follow you anywhere now that I know this about you and you’re willing to talk about it.”

I would get emails and just essays from men saying, you know, “I’ve been married for

25 years. My wife doesn't know that I was sexually abused or that I went through this

other thing.” It wasn’t always sexual abuse, but the men have gone through a lot

of things that they feel like they’re unable to express and talk about.

And I realized, wow, the more I start to share with my friends and family for them to actually

see me for the first time and just know me, know what I’ve gone through, know what I’ve

felt, I feel like I’m finally able to be myself. And the more I started to share, the

more I started to heal, and the less those moments or those insecurities had control

over me. I was able to take my power back, and it’s been an amazing transition.

And so I felt like this was more of like a responsibility for me to talk about this thing.

Over anything else I’d do, this was more of a process for me to talk about this, for

me to continue to heal, for me to hold myself accountable. Because even though I started

to share and heal, last week I’m getting triggered and like aggressive and angry. And,

you know, passive aggressive still.

Patterns exist, and especially ones that we’ve had over the course of our lives.

Exactly.

You know, 10, 20, 30, 40 years you’ve been doing something one way, it is – it’s

a journey and a process to start to unwire that stuff.

Exactly.