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  • Through most of this campaign on our European

  • future, the Remain camp led by the Prime Minister have

  • dominated the headlines, with blood-curdling warnings

  • about the economic danger of leaving.

  • But this week, the Leave campaign has put itself

  • The issue that's cutting through is immigration.

  • The EU immigration story really started back in 2004

  • when a surge of migrants arrived here from Eastern Europe.

  • The man in charge then, who is today a passionate advocate of Remain,

  • is Tony Blair the former Prime Minister.

  • And as gloves come off over immigration, one of the most vocal

  • opponents of EU membership and a likely contender in any Tory

  • leadership campaign, former Defence Secretary Liam Fox joins me.

  • Also here, reviewing our papers, a man who knows all about

  • the turmoil the euro has caused but nevertheless wants us

  • to stay inside the EU, Greece's former

  • Speaking of Greece, have we in this country too often treated it

  • as a sun-soaked holiday destination and not thought enough about

  • That's the theme of a new play starring Elizabeth McGovern

  • I caught up with a dressed down Lady Grantham at

  • And there's music from the Nashville singer who created what might have

  • been John Peel's favourite album ever, Laura Cantrell.

  • And alongside Yanis Varoufakis, one of Fleet Street's

  • leading Eurosceptic voices, The Daily Mail's Amanda Platell.

  • But first the news from Christian Fraser.

  • Two senior Conservatives have publicly challenged David Cameron

  • to accept the failure of his manifesto pledge

  • The Prime Minister promised to reduce net migration

  • The current figure is more than three times that amount.

  • Boris Johnson and the Justice Secretary, Michael Gove,

  • who both support the Vote Leave campaign, have written an open

  • letter, saying the promise to slash net immigration to the "tens

  • of thousands" is not achievable as long as the UK

  • They say the failure to keep this promise is corrosive

  • Downing Street described the move as "a transparent attempt

  • to distract from the fact that most economists think that leaving

  • the single market would be disastrous for jobs,

  • Iraqi government forces have made gains in their offensive to drive

  • so-called Islamic State militants from Fallujah.

  • Large numbers of troops have been deployed near the city and have

  • taken the town of Karma, which was the front

  • It comes just days after Washington said an Islamic State

  • commander was killed, along with dozens of militants,

  • A man has been killed in Poland and a child is on life support

  • in a French hospital after a series of lightning strikes across Europe.

  • The child was struck during a birthday party

  • According to local authorities, 11 people, including eight children,

  • were injured while trying to seek shelter under a tree.

  • The 100th anniversary of the Battle of Verdun,

  • the longest of the First World War, will be commemorated

  • As many as 800,000 soldiers are believed to have been killed

  • or wounded during the 1916 battle, which became known

  • The French President, Francois Hollande,

  • Angela Merkel, are expected to call for European unity when they lay

  • Now the front pages, you would expect lots of politics and you have

  • got them. David Cameron, to which to care about immigration, says Priti

  • Patel. We will talk about that later. I cannot show you the front

  • page of the Sun, but here is page two, all about the referendum. It is

  • about the shoot out after the poll. This is a pretty tough letter

  • because it suggests he undermined deliberately public trust by the

  • tens of thousands. On the Daily Mail,, this one takes a slightly

  • different view. The Observer, a massive boost for the Prime Minister

  • is over 600 economists reject or accept. That is the story that

  • Number Ten say the other stories are there to divert us away from. Yanis

  • Varoufakis and Amanda Platell, it is great to have you here. It signifies

  • a retreat from the Tories who are for the Leave campaign away from

  • what I consider to be their strong issue, sovereignty. They have

  • retreated to the Ukip agenda of scaremongering about migration. This

  • is very interesting because the two campaigns were against each other.

  • The Ukip campaign and the Tory campaign. What they have found...

  • This campaign has been running for some weeks now, the Leave campaign

  • have lost the argument on the economy so now they are thinking,

  • they had regrouped last week, we have one month to go, what can we

  • win on? Immigration. Their weakest argument from where I am standing is

  • migration. The fact they are treating simply shows panic and a

  • descent to an abyss from which I do not believe they can recover. It is

  • what a lot of people in this country really care about in terms of stress

  • on the NHS. Of course these are genuine concerns, but what I am

  • reading today in the paper is grabbing. To be clear, there was a

  • meeting earlier this week and this is a change of tack. Absolutely,

  • they realised they lost the argument on the economy. The euro is in the

  • perilous state, but they didn't win it, time is running out, so you go

  • back to what your strongest points are. In the Sun you have Michael

  • Gove having slagged off David Cameron in the Remain. He said the

  • five key facts David Cameron cannot answer, and it is immigration,

  • immigration, immigration... All of them are immigration. The force of

  • this letter is that it is true in that the tens of thousands promise

  • could not possibly be technically met ever so for the Prime

  • Minister... To go to the Prime Minister and say you have made a big

  • mistake... The Tories cannot say they didn't support this claim, they

  • supported it at the last election. Your point is an excellent one. The

  • worst enemy of the Remain campaign has been David Cameron, promises

  • that he has delivered that cannot be fulfilled. The forge that he came

  • back from Brussels, presenting it as a reformed, I am a supporter of

  • Remain but I wish David Cameron was not campaigning on my side. Very

  • good. Where are we going next? The Economist is next. A very brief

  • comment against my own lot. It was once said that if you laid every

  • economist in the world end to end, they still wouldn't reach a

  • conclusion. Indeed! But there was something worse to say about us. The

  • Royal economic Society, of which I am a member, these are the very same

  • economists to whom the Queen addressed a letter with a

  • devastating question, why didn't you see it coming? They spent three

  • months concocting the longest apology in the history of social

  • science. To have those same economists with wonderful predictive

  • powers... We don't trust you that much, with all due respect. You

  • shouldn't, we have never predicted anything! That is also true. There

  • is so much mud slinging, the knives are out of the back pockets, and you

  • see John Major saying he is savaging boorish Brexit. He is calling them

  • liars. What happens at the end of all of this? Do you take the view

  • that whatever happens in the vote there will be a leadership challenge

  • quite quickly? If I were to bet on it, yes, cause there is such mutiny

  • in the way the Government have used their resources to create this fear

  • campaign at the start of the election, and these people used to

  • be friends. Michael Gove and David Cameron used to be great friends,

  • you cannot go back from that. Also I have met up for drinks, I have to

  • say, with a number of these people who claim they are the ones who want

  • David Cameron out, who claimed they already have the signatures they

  • need. On John Major's point, if I may add, John Major is completely

  • right. The Treasury's figures are dodgy, not worth the paper they are

  • written on, but where John Major... He is highlighting the fact the

  • Leave campaign is also based on dodgy statistics. Let's face it,

  • this is a one-off event, it has never happened in the history of the

  • world for a country like Britain to leave the union like the European

  • Union. To pin down what this will mean for mortgages, the value of the

  • pound and so on, it is not based on scientific facts. The discussion

  • should be about sovereignty, about the effect of the Brexit on Europe,

  • on the British people, this is the discussion we should be having. I

  • think I have just found an economist I trust. I am going to stick however

  • with the Tory infighting story because my colleague John Pienaar

  • had an interesting chat with a Tory backbencher who said these are the

  • numbers, we are going to have this challenge, and that connects to

  • Priti Patel who was also going for the jugular. She was one of David

  • Cameron's proteges, she is going for broke now, distancing herself from

  • the leadership of the Tory party because these people suspect they

  • have a good chance of getting David Cameron up pretty quickly. It is a

  • sad fact that monumental referendum boils down to a Tory infighting

  • tussle about who will replace David Cameron. The Prime Minister has

  • already declared he doesn't want to be Prime Minister for much longer. A

  • lot of these campaigns are not Tory at all, the Labour Leave campaign,

  • the Remain campaign and so on. None of the big hitters are at the heart

  • of the opposition are actually putting their heads up. Yesterday at

  • UCL we had more than 1000 people and we try to do exactly that, to bring

  • the radical case for participating in the referendum from our Remain...

  • To actually animate it and have something to say that goes beyond

  • tactics. There are people on the left in this country arguing Brexit

  • should be supported because it will split the Tory party. This kind of

  • mindset, it is very petty, just as petty as the Tory side. This is a

  • significant juncture in the history of Europe and we should be worried

  • about its effect on the generations to come.

  • We are showing the Tony Blair interview in a little bit of time.

  • Blair is all over the papers as well of course, making his case. His main

  • argument seems to be if you have any concerns don't believe because there

  • is a devil that you know and a devil that you don't know. Beforehand, I

  • pleaded that David Cameron should not be trying to help the Remain

  • campaign. If that is so, imagine how much more it is pertinent in the

  • case of Tony Blair. Having Tony Blair on your side in any campaign

  • is a glass of poison. And you have picked up a story in the Sunday

  • Telegraph about the Chilcot inquiry. Yes, I am surprised by this issue,

  • whether he should be tried and imprisoned or or not. I think the

  • best outcome... From the point of view of history and humanity would

  • be for Tony Blair to be forgotten and treated with the contempt it

  • deserves. We have failed to forget him on this programme yet, I take

  • your point. Any last stories before we crashed out of the paper review?

  • There was this wonderful thing on Britain's Got Talent, a guy who used

  • to do magic tricks on the guy who used to do magic tricks, Burma

  • railway. It was absolutely fantastic, wonderful English heroic

  • patriotic music and there was this 96-year-old former card trick

  • magician. It was great TV. Tonight we are both going to be watching Top

  • Gear. We are both petrol heads. I'm looking to see how the BBC can

  • recreate the chemistry of the previous lot.

  • Now the weather, and I'm indebted to The Times for reminding me how

  • the American poet James Lowell described May - not just

  • a capricious month, "a pious fraud, a ghastly parody of real Spring".

  • So, for a weather forecast, delivered entirely in verse,

  • Wishful thinking! I have something much more corny. Sunshine, sunshine

  • in the sky, see-through clouds to tickle your eye. And the sunshine

  • will be tickling the eyes through the course of this afternoon. For

  • most other cities looking fine out there. It was quite grey over

  • eastern areas and on the North Sea coast, quite gloomy this morning

  • first thing, but now the sunshine is out and it promises to be a

  • beautiful and sunny Sunday. There are some showers in the forecast,

  • across northern and central parts of Scotland,

  • possibly even a thunderstorm. Showers across the hills in Wales

  • but temperatures widely in the 20s today. Cooler on the North Sea

  • coast. On bank holiday Monday, many of us have the day off with sunshine

  • around in western and central areas of the UK. We have been forecasting

  • Miss for the last few days, and we are expecting rain fall into East

  • Anglia, London and into Brighton later in the afternoon. Once again,

  • the vast majority of the UK should enjoy a fine bank holiday Monday

  • with lots of sunshine. Tuesday, back to work, and we are expecting some

  • rain but some areas will remain sunny in the west. Back to you. Rain

  • on Monday, there we go. Immigration became the main

  • theme of the Vote Leave Perhaps not surprising,

  • with the release of official figures showing net migration to the UK

  • at 330,000 last year. There's no escaping that statistic,

  • and it stands in contrast to David Cameron's target

  • of reducing immigration Now the Leave campaign have written

  • to the Prime Minister urging him to accept that this pledge has not

  • been met and is "corrosive One of the leading figures

  • on the Leave side, the Conservative former

  • Defence Secretary Liam Fox, is here. That letter that your side has sent

  • to the Prime Minister is a statement of fact, isn't it? No government

  • inside the EU can guarantee that immigration will fall to tens of

  • thousands. No Conservative MP who was elected at the last election can

  • fulfil our pledge to the British people, including me, if we stay

  • within the European Union. One of the points that people have failed

  • to grasp is that I am quite sure that the Prime Minister wanted to

  • get restrictions on free movement to meet that target, but it wasn't on

  • offer. There is no reform EU and it is a fantasy. Was this ignorance or

  • deceit? The Prime Minister wanted to get that change and we all wanted it

  • but now it is totally clear that if we stay in the EU, with free

  • movement, and we saw 184,000 net EU migrants coming to the UK last year,

  • that will not be a pledge that we can meet. It is impossible when you

  • are planning public services to be able to deal with those numbers and

  • have school places predicted, NHS, housing, all huge issues for real

  • people. Downing Street said today it was a distraction but

  • it is not a distraction. It is a huge issue for many people facing

  • implications of immigration in their real lives. Your party went in to

  • the election on a manifesto that was not true. No, it was entirely

  • possible to get that, but only if we admitted the renegotiation was not

  • going to achieve what we wanted because our European partners would

  • not change course and they will not change course on anything. They are

  • progressing the European army plans and everything suggests ever closer

  • union is still on the cards, so our choice as a country is between

  • getting control and taking our destiny into our own hands, or ever

  • closer union, ending up in what is likely to be much closer to a single

  • European state. That is not the future that I want for my country.

  • Brochures stuff in the papers today. Blue on blue. Do you think the Prime

  • Minister should carry on after the referendum? Do you think you should

  • lead any negotiations with the rest of the EU if we vote to leave? If we

  • vote to leave, my personal view is the best thing would be for the

  • Prime Minister to stay on. We will have to have a government position

  • before we enter into negotiations under article 50. We need a period

  • of stability. Whatever our views have been touring the referendum, we

  • need to put to bed those personal views and understand that stability

  • for the country is most important. 50 of your colleagues have put their

  • names down for a challenge after this vote. They may or may not have.

  • I have heard these stories on and off for 24 years. Whether it is true

  • or not I don't know, but it would not be wise in my view. If we decide

  • to leave, and there will be a period of uncertainty about the

  • government's negotiating position, we don't want to add to that. So you

  • would say, just stop it? My view is that we should stick to the issues.

  • There are big issues at stake for this country in the referendum so

  • don't turn it into an internal Conservative Party debating society.

  • I want to leave the European Union because I one control of our own

  • lawmaking, sovereignty is key for me, and I want control of our own

  • money that we are handing over to Brussels. And I want control of our

  • own borders which is much more important to me

  • than what happens inside the Conservative Party. So forget this

  • stuff about coups and what happens to David Cameron and concentrate on

  • the issues? Concentrate on the very big issues affecting Britain and our

  • future. People have to ask themselves, if you are not in the

  • European Union already, would you choose to join it? If you would not

  • choose to join, don't choose to stay because you are joining for the next

  • generation. Can I give two cheers for the European migrants who come

  • in here? Overwhelmingly hard-working people who keep up our public

  • services, you see them in hospitals and in the private sector in hotels

  • and restaurants and in the agriculture sector. Up and down the

  • country, very often doing jobs that British people no longer want to do

  • for that money. I don't have a problem with migration. I have a

  • problem with uncontrolled migration. I would like to have overall control

  • of migration on a points system like the Australians but we can't have

  • that because we are committed to total free movement.

  • It is that uncontrolled element, the fact we cannot control the impact on

  • public services, which is a very real problem. Not something that

  • Goldman Sachs and those funding the Remain campaign have got to worry

  • about because they probably don't use them. Ordinarily hard-working

  • people in this country face problems as a result of this huge increase in

  • our population, driving our housing policy, the NHS, demand the school

  • places. I don't have a problem with migration, I have a problem with

  • uncontrolled migration. Another is too high? I want to control that

  • number. After Brexit, if that happens, we would be taking migrants

  • from the EU. I want a decent human immigration policy that determines

  • what we need in this country and that matches with the supply of

  • labour that comes from overseas. Not just the EU, but other countries,

  • Canada and Australia, who are being discriminated against because of the

  • EU migrants and policy. At that point, could we get down to tens of

  • thousands? I think it is possible to do it. You have to take tough

  • decisions but we have an economy that is doing very well. We are

  • acting as a magnet for migration. When the liberal wage comes in, if

  • we still have open borders in terms of migration, that will be a much

  • bigger number, given the continuing failure of the eurozone and what it

  • is doing to young people's futures across the continent. Nonetheless,

  • we have needed migration to this country. Your colleague Sarah

  • Williston, on your side in this debate, she has said that if you

  • meet a European migrant in the NHS, they are more likely to be healing

  • you than to be a patient. I don't have a problem with migration, I

  • have a problem with uncontrolled migration and the pressure it puts

  • on public services. For every 10% increase in the life of the

  • population, that is 80% reduction in wages. It is very hard to see how

  • you get a high wage economy and at the same time have open borders and

  • uncontrolled migration. Priti Patel has said today that the Prime

  • Minister is too rich to get this message. He doesn't understand what

  • life is like for too many people in this country. I don't agree with

  • that. The Prime Minister entirely understands that. He has committed

  • us to membership of the European Union on terms that I simply cannot

  • access. He would have liked to have a restriction on the numbers coming

  • into Britain but our European partners will not wear it. The idea

  • that we can influence them in changing the core elements of ever

  • closer union, that is simply a fantasy. I have a problem with ever

  • closer union because the logical end point is union and that is not what

  • I want for this country. You are quite worried about the Gibraltar

  • situation at the moment as well. The one thing that you never do in any

  • campaign is to play with security and the sovereignty of the people of

  • Gibraltar has always been guaranteed by the United Kingdom. To pretend in

  • any way shape or form that that policy would change if we were in or

  • outside the European Union is inexcusable. Who has done that?

  • Remain campaign suggested that Gibraltans of 40 might be at stake

  • and that is inexcusable. -- Gibraltar sovereignty. The Prime

  • Minister needs to say that the sovereignty of Gibraltar is a

  • question we would not tolerate inside or outside the European Union

  • and that sovereignty is guaranteed by the UK. And you think we need

  • that statement? We need that clarity. The slightest inference

  • that we might hand over the sovereignty of Gibraltar to Spain if

  • we are not inside the European Union is completely unacceptable. There

  • are limits to what you can and cannot say in any campaign and that

  • goes way beyond acceptable limits. This requires personal intervention

  • by the Prime Minister to get that clarity? I think he is the only

  • person with authority to make the government's position clear and

  • unequivocal. Gibraltar is protected by the UK and will continue to be

  • protected. We need a clear statement. Liam Fox, there is much

  • more to talk about and luckily you have agreed to join us on the sofa

  • of shame at the end of the programme but thank you very much indeed for

  • now. As chatelaine of Downton,

  • Elizabeth McGovern was one of the best known faces on our TV

  • screens for six years. Now, in a new production

  • at the National Theatre, she plays a very different American

  • wife from Lady Grantham. Sunset At The Villa Thalia

  • is a drama set in Greece during the colonels' coup

  • of the '60s and the political It's a play, I almost guarantee you,

  • you're going to hear a lot I caught up with Elizabeth

  • between rehearsals at the National and we began by discussing

  • the Downton phenomenon. The more adaptable we are, the more

  • chance we have of getting through. Edith has risen from

  • the cinders in the hearth to be kissed by her very own

  • Prince Charming. What more

  • can we ask? A long and happy life together just

  • we two to watch the children All drama comes from throwing people

  • into an enclosed space and then watching the friction that ensues

  • so in that respect Downton is very much like any other great TV

  • show or piece of theatre. You sound like you

  • are a genuine fan. There are other eminent

  • members of the cast Well, I am of the school of thought

  • that I have only to be grateful for the kind of impact

  • that Downton Abbey had. It is very rare that someone works

  • on anything that takes It is so good of you to stay,

  • Mama. It has made you a big,

  • big star both in this country To me the most interesting thing

  • about your career You were big, big in Hollywood,

  • with all the greats in Hollywood, you could have gone right to the top

  • and you walked away. I don't think I perceived the course

  • of my career as consciously walking away from anything as much

  • as being drawn by interesting work that I couldn't resist that led me

  • to other places and that continues It has made me very happy

  • and always very passionate about what I am doing but it may

  • lead back to Hollywood one day. Because Hollywood is this great

  • sticky magnet of money and glamour and fame and you did

  • move away from it. I think you talked about the cult

  • of personality that you didn't Yes, that was not the kind of work

  • I was ever drawn to doing. You are now a Chiswick High Street

  • girl? Elizabeth, this is a play set

  • in Greece in the 1960s and '70s. Just give us a little sense

  • of the underlying theme. Two couples meet on holiday

  • on a Greek island. One British, one American,

  • and they encounter of course the local population,

  • so it is an exploration It is an exploration of the British

  • and the American imperialistic way of taking advantage

  • of the countries that they visit, unwittingly and with

  • the best intentions. It is about many, many things

  • which makes it a very I suppose it is something that

  • all of us have done, which is go somewhere beautiful

  • and treat it like a backdrop, not like a real place,

  • not being interested enough in the people that have lived

  • there for generations. And even the extension

  • of that is somehow to want to own it, to want to buy,

  • to want to take it home with you. A lot of the play touches

  • on the American tendency to infiltrate these governments

  • with the excuse of the Soviet Union as the enemy and to try

  • to control their politics. So this is back in the day

  • of the colonels' coup The American guy clearly works

  • for the CIA and interestingly She's an actress and he's a writer

  • and there's a lot of Anglo-American The British are rather

  • complacent about how they are better people

  • than the Americans. The Americans do all these terrible

  • things in Chile and so forth but the British sit back and enjoy

  • the sun and patronise the locals. That is one of the things

  • about the play that I am There are these two couples that

  • have an initial love affair - the artist and intellectual,

  • and the other couple are the people that do the hard knocks

  • of protecting the world that They say to these artists

  • and intellectuals, "Listen, I am creating a world

  • by being in the CIA, by protecting your right to freedom

  • of speech and all the things we take for granted,

  • and then you turn around and criticise me for what I am doing

  • but I am actually creating the life This is also about the close

  • connection between the theatre It is a point the American character

  • makes very unequivocably, how theatre and democracy emerged

  • in Greece at the same time and shares the same kind of space

  • with storytelling and getting ourselves into other

  • people's heads. It is the democracy that the CIA

  • protects that creates the world of the theatre and the two were born

  • at exactly the same time, Elizabeth, it has been

  • a privilege talking to you. Tony Blair wanted us

  • to join the euro. He's always been one of the most

  • outspoken defenders of Brussels in this country, but these days

  • he is followed everywhere by the shadow of the Iraq

  • war and seems to have fallen out permanently

  • with his party's leadership. I spoke to Mr Blair a little

  • earlier this morning, and I began by asking him whether

  • the current level I think people's concerns

  • about immigration are completely Indeed, this is a worldwide

  • phenomenon so it's not the rest of Europe,

  • And I understand why people think the

  • levels are too high, but the fact is that, one,

  • the biggest problem we have is

  • non-EU migration, and secondly, the reason why

  • the Leave people have now

  • really focused on immigration day after day is because they have

  • don't think they can really dispute, is that

  • if we did vote to leave, the

  • economic after-shock would be severe and directly measurable in jobs and

  • living standards and business confidence.

  • Coming back to immigration however, those people

  • who are worried about it may be right, and it

  • may be that actually this

  • country cannot absorb this level of immigration from the rest

  • It was nearly 200,000 people from the EU last year, close

  • I also think we have got to understand what we are

  • Are we saying that we should leave the European

  • Union and then put out the people who have

  • They get to stay anyway because of the Luxembourg compromise.

  • Right, but if you look at how the UK functions

  • going forward, some of

  • these people play an absolutely fundamental part in services like

  • the National Health Service, and even if we were to stop all EU

  • immigration, you've still got the other issues to do

  • with immigration so I don't discount it is an issue.

  • It's really important issue, but it's not going to go away as an

  • issue if we leave the European Union.

  • But it is a really important issue that, while we are inside the EU, we

  • can do nothing about. We have uncontrolled immigration from the EU

  • as long as we remain in the EU. You have free movement of people in the

  • EU but it also applies to British people working in Europe. It is

  • uncontrolled in both directions. My point is that inside the EU we have

  • nothing we can do about big net migration. You have to accept there

  • is nothing you can do about free movement of people, but even outside

  • the European Union, if we want access to the single market a like

  • Norway has had to renegotiate free movement of people sell levels of

  • migration are higher in Norway and Switzerland. When you look at this

  • rationally, yes immigration is a big issue, it won't be solved by leaving

  • the European Union. In fact in some ways, as David Blunkett has been

  • pointing out, we will lose the ability to cooperate with other

  • countries in dealing with immigration from outside of Europe.

  • If Turkey joins, and you are big to using us for that, people will look

  • ahead and say this will go on and on. Is there any limit in your mind

  • for immigration into this country from the rest of Europe? There is no

  • possibility of Turkey joining in the near future. If Turkey ever meet the

  • accession terms, it is a vote that we have a veto on in Britain. To

  • raise Turkey in this context is again to demonstrate why what they

  • want to do is raise the general fear of migration because when you look

  • at the particular facts, their case just doesn't stack up. We are always

  • told things won't happen and then they do. You yourself said it was in

  • Turkey's interests to join the EU and you are a big advocate for that.

  • As was David Cameron, so we can assume in due course they will join

  • the EU. I always will be an advocate for us to apply to Turkey the same

  • rules we apply to everyone else, but the reality is there is a

  • possibility -- there is into possibility of Turkey joining in the

  • short term. But this is a vote for very long time in the future. In the

  • medium term, Turkey and maybe other countries will join. What I'm saying

  • is the level of immigration into this country almost limitless. It is

  • not limitless because it only applies to the country in the

  • European Union. If people make this decision on the basis of Turkey, it

  • would be making it on the basis of a hypothesis that if it ever does

  • happen, it will not happen until a long period of time. We have areas

  • with overcrowded A departments, people feel there are already too

  • many people coming into this country, and if we vote to remain

  • that will carry on. If we vote to leave, these problems will still

  • remain. In the end, you take the NHS... You then have to renegotiate

  • all of the trading arrangements that Britain has. It is an important

  • point, Andrew, because if you renegotiate those trading

  • arrangements, and remember half our trade goes into the European Union

  • so it is essential to do that, number one that will be an agonising

  • process and it will cast a pall of uncertainty over the British economy

  • for many years, but secondly, if we want access back into the single

  • market we will be renegotiating many of these things. A lot of people on

  • the other side of the arguments they will go through World Trade

  • Organisation rules so it is not certain. When they say that, that is

  • when anyone who knows about these things knows they have lost the

  • argument completely. The idea we would put our economic future into

  • renegotiating our trade arrangements with the rest of the world through

  • the WTO, that is an organisation that has one of the hardest tasks in

  • the world. They have for years been trying to get a global trade round

  • together, unsuccessfully. The notion that it is some simple manoeuvre to

  • put our trading relationships through the hands of the WTO, to

  • anybody who understands these things, it doesn't bear thinking of

  • and they must know that when they are saying these things. It sounds

  • like for you immigration at any level is a price worth paying for

  • economic growth. I fought the last election in 2005 on immigration.

  • Some of the legislation I put through the House of Commons work

  • cutting down asylum seekers, I am sensitive to the issue of

  • immigration and you have to be in politics today. I am opposed to

  • their answer to it, which is to get out of Europe. It doesn't deal with

  • non-EU immigration, and doesn't even really deal with EU immigration. But

  • EU immigration is not controlled in a literal sense, nobody can control

  • that. My question is, 180,000 this year, if it was half a million next

  • year, and millions a year after, if it carries on growing, what is your

  • message? My messages very simple. There is a problem of migration

  • generally, if you actually break down the figures on EU migration,

  • then many of these people come in on short-term contracts and then will

  • go back out again. Many of these people work in vital public

  • services, and we also get the benefit. The reason we can travel

  • around Europe without restrictions is because of the free movement of

  • people. Many people don't because they cannot afford to. Priti Patel

  • has said today the Prime Minister is too rich, living a luxury lifestyle,

  • and out of touch with communities. I'm sure she would include you in

  • not. I'm sure she would but the idea that the people supporting the Leave

  • campaign are people living in diminished economic circumstances,

  • come on! We know the people who are bankrolling the Leave campaign,

  • these people are not exactly your ordinary person. The argument about

  • elite or not elite. This is a debate, probably the most important

  • decision we will make since World War II by the way, and the fact is

  • these people are focusing on immigration because on the economy

  • it is now clear that we are going to suffer a deep after-shock if we

  • leave the European Union. And when you get, I think the Economist

  • newspaper has a pall of economists, 88% said leaving would be a

  • disaster. I cannot think of any issue where 88% of economists have

  • ever agreed. This is the thing we have got to work out and understand.

  • This is a question about whether we would leave Europe, not whether we

  • join. If we were in a situation where we weren't in the European

  • Union, that is a debate. We have these interlocking economic

  • relationships. You break that up and how can anyone argue you won't have

  • a problem afterwards economically? These people say they care about

  • people's living standards, and those in the poorest members of our

  • society, they are the people who will suffer. Many of those people

  • feel strongly about immigration and do feel it is too high and feel no

  • reassurance because you cannot tell them anything that will change if we

  • stay in. Lots of things will change in the way that we handle the

  • immigration question. Yes, lots of things will change, but no, it is

  • true, if you are ports of Europe there is this free movement of

  • people and it works both ways. When David Cameron said he would get

  • immigration down to the tens of thousands, that must have been

  • nonsense. No because the majority of immigration into this country is

  • non-EU. But if you can't deal with the numbers coming into this

  • country, you cannot say tens of thousands, can you? He has

  • negotiated an arrangement on benefits and so on. The evidence is

  • that people who come in from the EU contribute far more in taxes than

  • they take on benefits. You told us it was in our national interest not

  • to join the euro. Wow, you were wrong about that. We never put the

  • issue to the British people because the economic place was ambiguous.

  • You guys said all of this is about the euro, well I went back and

  • checked, no we didn't. I said unless there is a clear economic case to

  • join the EU euro, we will do it. But all those people who said this is a

  • politically driven and eventually catastrophic system have been proved

  • right, and look what has happened across the south of Europe. Greece,

  • Italy and Spain. This has been a disaster of policy. My point is

  • people like you were in favour of it. We were never in favour of

  • Britain joining the euro because in the end the economics didn't stack

  • up. Politically I said it was always important to position ourselves as

  • if in principle you were in favour but the economics weren't right. You

  • said it was in our national interest to join. I never said that, I always

  • said we shouldn't join unless the economics were right. The case for

  • leaving Europe is a different case because even if you disagree with

  • the euro, you surely don't disagree with Britain being part of the

  • single market, because the single market, which was a British

  • achievement under Thatcher, is essential for British jobs and

  • industry. Should Britain never join the

  • eurozone? There is no reason to take a position for the next 100 years

  • but there is no remote possibility of Britain joining in the

  • foreseeable future. In a few weeks, if we vote to leave the EU, what is

  • the future for Britain five or ten years out? If we voted to leave, we

  • would suffer an immediate shock to our economy. We would create years

  • of uncertainty, because we would have to renegotiate all the

  • complicated trading arrangements we have with the rest of Europe. That

  • is not some hypothetical risk, it is something that you can and will see

  • directly in people's jobs and living standards and in business's ability

  • to work with confidence. It is an enormous economic problem. I don't

  • think anyone can really dispute that. The question is whether that

  • pain is worth the gain. What is very difficult to see is what the gain is

  • that people say is so important. I know you can't talk about the

  • Chilcot Inquiry and all of that, but after the ghastly episode of the

  • Iraq war, are you seriously in favour of us going into Syria to

  • confront Isis in Syria on the ground? I am in favour of

  • confronting Isis on the ground but we don't need to do it with our own

  • troops and boots on the ground. What the Americans have been doing with

  • the support they have been given has had a huge impact on the fight

  • against Isis. This is a global problem today. It is not just Isis

  • in Syria. You have got Isis in Libya, Boko Haram, Al-Shabab, groups

  • in the Philippines and Thailand. At the core of this problem we have got

  • Isis, the so-called Islamic State, in Syria and Iraq, moving into a

  • hideous vacuum created by the Iraqi war, created by the civil war, and

  • ultimately created by decisions that you talk. If you take the countries

  • on the critical list today, Syria, Iraq, Libya and Yemen, in only one

  • of those cases have you got a government that is capable of

  • fighting terrorism and is, that is recognised as internationally

  • legitimate, including by both Saudi Arabia and Iran, and whose Prime

  • Minister turns up in the White House. That is Iraq. I understand

  • the issues and we will debate them when we get to Chilcot, but the idea

  • that this all comes from the decision to remove Saddam Hussein,

  • you have got to go back into this and look at the roots of it. The

  • problem is that you plan and thought you were going to war but you didn't

  • tell us. Chilcot will deal with all of these things. Will you accept

  • Chilcot's verdict on this as a fair assessment after all this time? It

  • is hard to say that when I haven't seen it. Of course you don't see the

  • report until it comes out, so let's wait for that point. When you go

  • back and you look at what was said, I don't think anyone can fiercely

  • dispute that I was making it very clear what my position was. What

  • makes it important when it does happen is that we have a full debate

  • and I look forward to participating in that. Make no mistake about that.

  • It is really important that we debate these issues, because we have

  • got huge problems. People want to focus in Iraq, but look at all of

  • the Middle East and all over the world and debate the right policy to

  • deal with it. I hope we can persuade you to come back and sit in that

  • chair and debate it at length when the Chilcot Inquiry report comes

  • out. You said it would be a terrible risk for the British people to elect

  • an extreme government, and you seem to be talking about Jeremy Corbyn.

  • Do you think Jeremy Corbyn is a risk and do you want to see him

  • as Prime Minister? I wasn't talking about Jeremy Corbyn, by the way. I

  • was talking about the general populace in the world today. The

  • word Jeremy Corbyn had been in the question so it was associated with

  • it. That is the way it goes. But what I was talking about, and this

  • is a whole other interview, was the insurgent movements of left and

  • right. I think they are driven by a great deal of anger and populism

  • that is able to ride that anger but they don't really provide answers to

  • the problems that we face. Let me ask you about Jeremy Corbyn

  • directly. I know there is history here but nonetheless, somebody

  • trying to create a new economic policy for new times, trying to

  • address the angry, trying to think of new Labour policies, not policies

  • for New Labour. Are you being disloyal to him? I am not being

  • disloyal. Let's see what the policies are. I don't disrespect him

  • as a person or his views. Will you vote Labour with him? I will always

  • vote Labour because that is just the way I am. In the end, what is always

  • important in today's world, which is so uncertain and predictable, is

  • that I understand how these movements are moving politics in an

  • extraordinary way today and you can see it across the Atlantic and here

  • and across Europe. Personally I would like to see the centre, and by

  • that I mean the centre-left and the centre-right, get its grip back and

  • its traction back on the political scene because I believe lots of the

  • solutions to the problems we face today are less about ideology and

  • far more to do with practicality and understanding modernity and the way

  • the modern world works. Very last question. Many of the people who

  • supported you all the way through feel you have become too rich and

  • disconnected and you have trashed the brand. If you are reading stuff

  • in the press about what I do nowadays, don't read and believe it.

  • Look at my website and see what I actually do. I spent 80% of my time

  • on unpaid work. I have literally spent weeks in the Middle East on a

  • Middle East peace process. I have two foundations and I employ 200

  • people and I have to raise and make the money for all of them. What we

  • do is good and exciting work around the world but you will not read a

  • bit of it here. If you want to know what I do, go and read the facts.

  • Tony Blair, thank you very much. That was Tony Blair talking to me

  • earlier this morning. Before we go on, let's hear

  • from Nicky Campbell and what's coming up immediately

  • after this programme. Join us from Oxford at ten o'clock

  • by Wilt be asking one big question, did man create God? We have gathered

  • together the various theologians and writers, people of various faiths

  • and none. Join us at ten o'clock on BBC One. Interesting question.

  • And I'm joined once more by Liam Fox and Yanis Varoufakis.

  • You describe Tony Blair as a pot of poison, and having watched that

  • interview, what do you make of it? It was very hesitant. He made some

  • good points. I agree that exiting the EU is not the same thing as

  • entering. As a young man, I campaigned against Greece entering

  • the European Union and the eurozone in particular of course. But to get

  • out would not necessarily get you to where you would have been if you had

  • not entered. That is a good point. But everything else, coming from

  • Tony Blair as supportive of my side of politics, it is a kind of

  • poisoned chalice, a kind of poison. People wonder about you, because you

  • have seen the misery caused by the Euro in your own country and by

  • migration, but you are telling us to stay in. That seems odd. Nobody can

  • accuse me of being a lackey of Brussels or a European loyalist. The

  • reason I am doing this, just to be sick thing is that I do not buy the

  • scare campaign of Remain, that if you get out, there will be

  • Armageddon the next day. That is nonsense. What I do fear is that the

  • European Union as it is, under the weight of its hubris and malignancy

  • and democratic vacuum, is disintegrating. Brexit would cause

  • an exhilaration of this disintegration, and you cannot

  • escape it. This situation will create a deflationary vortex and a

  • toxicity that will consume your country, even if you vote to leave.

  • This is why I am imploring you to stay in, and fight with us to change

  • the European Union, because you can vote to check out but you can not

  • change it afterwards. I said in the European elections one third of

  • citizens will vote for parties that want to leave or destroy the

  • European Union. I said what do you say to that and he said to me that

  • if one third want to destroy than two thirds don't and we will

  • continue as we are. That is my problem. Those in control of the

  • European project are set on a course that they set in the 1950s and they

  • are not changing trajectory. One of the things that I hope for is that

  • if Britain chooses to leave, it will deliver such a shock to those

  • controlling the European system that they understand they must change

  • direction for their citizens. They will double down and they will

  • collapse in the same way they did in the 1920s and 30s, and that collapse

  • will drag you down with them because Britain is so intertwined with the

  • European Union. A Brexit vote is not going to create a cushion between

  • you and a deflationary Europe that is necessary, to shield you from it.

  • You mentioned ever closer union, Liam Fox, and we have a message from

  • Number 10 to say that Samantha Cameron had flunked the remote

  • control at the television set because David Cameron has got us out

  • of that. Ever closer union will continue. The eurozone needs to

  • integrate to diminish the risk that the Euro poses to monetary

  • stability. They are going to go down that road. It doesn't matter what we

  • think will stop that is the direction they have chosen. Ever

  • since I came into the House of Commons 24 years ago, I have been

  • told Europe is coming in our direction. It isn't. It is

  • continuing the path of integration that I think is foolish and

  • dangerous. Until the European Union is run for its citizens and not a

  • self-serving elite, the danger will be to us and to the continent and to

  • wider stability. We have to get control and we have to leave. We are

  • completely out of time. Thank you both very much indeed. That is all

  • we have time for. Next Sunday Boris Johnson will be here to argue the

  • case for Britain to leave the EU. But we leave you now

  • with some fine music. The late great John Peel once said

  • that Laura Cantrell's debut album in 2000 was his favourite record

  • of the last ten years From that album, here

  • is Laura Cantrell Enjoy the rest of the Bank

  • Holiday weekend! # I met a guy in a west coast town

  • Had four walls to bring him down # And he sometimes speaks

  • of you # Late at night he'd reminisce over

  • the lips he used to kiss # Two seconds of your love

  • is all I need from you # Two seconds of your time,

  • that's enough to say we're through # Two beats of your heart,

  • enough to know we'll never part # Two seconds of your love,

  • that's all I ever want # Two seconds of your time,

  • that's enough to say we're through # Two seconds of your love

  • enough to know we'll never part

Through most of this campaign on our European

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