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  • [APPLAUSE]

  • TIM KELLER: Hi, thanks for having me here.

  • It's always hard to convey a book,

  • especially one as dense as this one, quickly.

  • I'll try to think about half the time

  • conveying the book, what the book's about, and about half

  • the time questions and answers.

  • So the book is about how belief in God

  • or religious faith or Christian faith

  • can make sense to somebody today.

  • It's about how it's possible for that to make sense.

  • Now, I would like to make the case right now that

  • should be of some interest to you, no matter who you are.

  • Chapter one tries to make that case

  • that no matter who you are, you should at least care about how

  • people come to their faith positions,

  • how their beliefs come to make sense to them.

  • In chapter one, I make the case that there's actually

  • two trends that are marked in the world with regard

  • to religion.

  • Here's the one.

  • The one is-- and I know what I'm going

  • to say is going to sound counter-intuitive to you,

  • but the book explains it and there's really

  • not much doubt about this-- that in general, the world

  • is becoming more religious and will for the next 30

  • to 50 years at least.

  • It's getting more religious.

  • The reasons for that, which are laid out there-- everything

  • here is brief.

  • You can always ask more later-- is that both Christianity

  • and Islam are both converting people at a rate

  • faster than the population is growing.

  • And that's the reason why they're growing.

  • Secondly, it's also true that religious people

  • have a lot more children than secular people and unbelieving

  • people.

  • So you put all that together, all

  • of the demographic projections are

  • that actually the number of people today in the world

  • that say they're secular, no religious preference,

  • is close to 17%.

  • Over the next 35 years, that's going down to about 12%

  • because of these trends I've just mentioned.

  • So on the one hand, the world's becoming religious.

  • On the other hand, parts of the world

  • are becoming more secular than they've ever been before.

  • Parts of the world are going to be

  • marked by more and more people who say religion

  • doesn't make sense to me.

  • Belief in God doesn't make sense to me.

  • Now, what this means is that there's two kinds of slogans

  • that you should never believe.

  • One is that religion is going away.

  • It's just not.

  • I mean, I do hear it a lot that religion is dying out.

  • Younger people are less religious.

  • What younger people?

  • The people I know.

  • OK, we have to look at the world.

  • And it's not true that religion is dying out.

  • And it won't.

  • So the idea that religion is going away is just not true.

  • But the idea that in some triumphalistic sense

  • that religion will triumph or Christianity

  • will triumph in the world, that's

  • not going to happen either.

  • And since both these trends are true,

  • religion is not going away, and yet part of the world

  • are going to become less religious than they've ever

  • been, what that does mean is it should matter to us how people

  • come to their various positions.

  • Increasing numbers of people are finding

  • that belief in a universe without God

  • makes sense to them.

  • They believe in a universe without God.

  • And that makes sense to them.

  • And other people are finding that belief in God

  • and a universe filled with God makes sense to them.

  • How do they get to those positions?

  • We actually often do not really talk enough about

  • that because people don't want to say, how do you get there?

  • By the way, people who lose their religious faith usually

  • say, I just saw the truth.

  • And people who get converted usually

  • say, I just saw the light.

  • But that's not very illuminating.

  • Instead, I'm going to make the case

  • that the process by which we come to our beliefs,

  • to believe in a universe without God

  • or believe in a universe with God,

  • are actually more complicated than that.

  • So in chapter two what I do-- and I

  • want to spend a little time here with you

  • just for a moment to lay out what

  • I do there-- is I tackle this simplistic idea.

  • So for example, one of the things that people say a lot--

  • I see it on the internet all the time,

  • and I talk to people in New York all the time who say this.

  • And that is this.

  • It's a popular belief to say belief

  • that there is no God is arrived at mainly through using reason.

  • So if you come to the conclusion that there is no God,

  • that happened through reason.

  • But if you come to believe there is a God,

  • that's a leap of faith.

  • So belief that there is no God, through reason.

  • Belief that there is a God, through faith.

  • I'm here to tell you actually that is wrong.

  • It's naive.

  • It's simplistic.

  • The fact of the matter is both sides

  • use a combination of reason and faith.

  • So to press a little bit, here's a thesis

  • I put out in chapter two.

  • And I'll try to defend it in about four or five minutes

  • here.

  • And here's the thesis.

  • The move from religion to secularism,

  • the move from religious faith to a secular belief that there

  • is no God or maybe there is no God--

  • so to move from religious faith to secularism

  • is not so much a loss of faith as a shift

  • to a new set of beliefs, to a new community of faith

  • where the lines between orthodoxy and heresy

  • are just drawn in different places.

  • So if you're religious, you grew up

  • in a church, say, or a synagogue,

  • and then you move to being non-religious-- I'm a secular

  • person, I actually don't believe in God--

  • that's not so much a loss of faith

  • as actually a movement from one set

  • of beliefs to a new set of beliefs,

  • from one community of faith to another community of faith,

  • from one standard of orthodoxy and heresy

  • to another standard of orthodoxy and heresy.

  • I know that's kind of a provocative thesis

  • and not most people think that.

  • Let me show you, I think, how I can demonstrate that.

  • Secular people that I know-- I'm not saying all of you--

  • if you say, well, I consider myself

  • a person who doesn't really believe in God,

  • so I consider myself something of a secular

  • person-- I'm not saying this is true of everybody.

  • I'm saying plenty of people I've talked to who say I'm secular

  • or I'm a non-religious person actually

  • have two sets of beliefs.

  • And they are beliefs.

  • What are they?

  • I will call them proofism and humanism.

  • Now, what's proofism?

  • It's a coined word.

  • It's not the most felicitous phrase.

  • But I'm trying to get at this.

  • What many people will say to me is,

  • I'd be happy to believe in God if you could prove it to me.

  • I'd be happy to believe in Christianity

  • if you could prove it to me.

  • But since there isn't any evidence,

  • you can't prove it to me, therefore

  • I shouldn't believe it.

  • Now, that statement is wrong on a number of levels

  • and actually is a statement of faith.

  • Well, number one, when you say you shouldn't believe something

  • unless it can be empirically proven,

  • the problem is that that statement

  • can't be empirically proven.

  • For about 100 years, philosophers

  • have pointed that out.

  • To make a claim like that, to make a claim

  • that you shouldn't believe something unless it's proven,

  • is itself a statement that can't be proven.

  • It's an assertion.

  • It's not an argument.

  • It's just a sweeping statement.

  • And it can't be its own criteria.

  • Secondly, when people say to me, well, I

  • could be happy to believe in God if you could prove it to me,

  • But if you can't prove it to me, I can't believe in a god.

  • The problem is that everybody bases their lives on beliefs

  • that they can't prove.

  • If you believe in human rights, if you believe

  • we ought to take care of the poor and not trample the poor,

  • can you prove that?

  • Of course you can't.

  • Actually, everybody bases their lives on deep convictions.

  • They just can't be proven.

  • So it's quite wrong to say, for example to Christians,

  • you've got to prove your beliefs.

  • But then I don't have to prove my beliefs.

  • The fact is nobody, frankly, could

  • prove the most important beliefs on which their life is based.

  • And thirdly-- by the way, you probably would guess,

  • actually those of you with a philosophy background,

  • is there's not a lot of agreement on what the word

  • proof means.

  • It is true that I think most people agree

  • it's possible to prove that substance x boils

  • at temperature y at barometric pressure z.

  • And therefore, if I can demonstrate that,

  • then we could say that's been proven.

  • But beyond that, how do you prove historical claims?

  • When is a historical claim, that something

  • happened 300 years ago, when has that been proven?

  • Or how do you prove any moral values?

  • Again, how do you prove that human rights are important

  • or that they're there?

  • The answer is nobody actually agrees

  • on what proof is, because some people say, that was proven.

  • Other people say, well, how do you define proof?

  • So in the end, if you're a person who says,

  • because of my rationality, I cannot believe in God

  • or Christianity, what you're actually doing is

  • you're assuming a set of beliefs about how rationality operates

  • that are really a set of beliefs.

  • And they're not self-evident to everybody.

  • They're contested.

  • So they're really a set of beliefs.

  • To say I can't believe in Christianity

  • because you haven't proven it is a set of beliefs.

  • Then the other thing besides what

  • I call proofism, which is a set of beliefs about rationality,

  • which can't be proven.

  • Most secular people I know also are

  • what you might call a humanist.

  • Humanism means they believe it's important

  • that every human being be treated

  • with dignity, that people's rights not to be trampled upon,

  • that we not oppress people, that we

  • share our goods and our power with others

  • and not exploit them.

  • Right?

  • When you say most, I mean, let's put it this way--

  • most of the atheists and most of the secular

  • or non-religious people I know believe that.

  • But here's a question.

  • How do you prove that?

  • What is that?

  • Not only is that a set of beliefs,

  • but frankly, those beliefs take more faith to believe in.

  • See, if you're a Hindu, you believe

  • the world is such that you will get off

  • the cycle of reincarnation if you live a good life.

  • If you don't live a good life, you keep getting reincarnated.

  • If you live a good life, you can be taken off

  • the cycle of reincarnation and go into eternal bliss.

  • If you believe the bible, so if you are an Orthodox Jew

  • or you're a Christian believer, you

  • believe that God made the world, a loving God made the world,

  • and you should love your neighbor

  • so that you're like God, and you can know him,

  • and you can be saved.

  • In other words, to live a good life of humanistic values

  • fits in with the Hindu view of what the universe is like.

  • And it fits in with the Christian view

  • or the Jewish view of what the universe is like.

  • But what is the secular view of the world?

  • It's what's called a materialist view, which is

  • to say there's no supernatural.

  • There's only natural.

  • There's no soul.

  • There's no heaven.

  • It's just everything has a natural cause.

  • So just to show the problem with that,

  • or I'll just say the amount of faith

  • it takes that humanistic values with that view of the world,

  • last year I found this.

  • This was written in the "New York Times."

  • It was actually a letter.

  • It says there are 30,000 galaxies

  • of over 13 billion years old.

  • So there's 30,000 galaxies 13 billion years old

  • with many trillions of stars and many, many more trillions

  • of inferred planets.

  • So how significant are you?

  • He's talking to individual people.

  • How significant are you?

  • You are not special.

  • You're just another piece of decaying matter

  • on the compost pile of this world.

  • Nothing of who you are and what you do in the short time

  • you were here will ever matter.

  • Everything short of that realization is vanity.

  • Therefore, or he says "so," celebrate life.

  • In every moment, admire its wonders

  • and love people without reservation.

  • Now, the word "so," most of us think the word "so" means

  • this logically leads to that.

  • When you say "so," we think that somehow what

  • comes before the "so" should lead you to do what

  • comes after the "so," right?

  • Here's a question.

  • The first part of that statement is

  • a bracing, wonderfully honest look

  • at what it means to believe in a materialist universe.

  • You're not here for any purpose.

  • No one put you here.

  • You came up through evolution, red and tooth and claw.

  • You know, the strong eating the weak.

  • You're only here because your ancestors

  • killed weaker organisms.

  • And in the end, eventually, you're going to die.

  • Then the sun is going to die.

  • Then civilization will die.

  • And in the end, whether you're a genocidal maniac

  • or whether you're an altruist and philanthropist

  • will make no difference in the end.

  • There won't be anybody around to remember anything

  • that anyone's ever done.

  • So in the end, nothing you do will matter, right?

  • Therefore, he says, love one another.

  • See, here's the question.

  • If that's the case of the nature of the universe,

  • why should I love other people?

  • If my ancestors got here by destroying and eating

  • the weaker organisms, why should I now

  • suddenly become unselfish?

  • And the answer is if you want to believe in humanistic values--

  • I'm glad, by the way.

  • I am really glad.

  • The more people that believe in humanistic values,

  • I think the better the world will be.

  • But it doesn't follow from your view of the universe at all.

  • It's a huge leap of faith, unbelievable leap of faith.

  • It doesn't take huge faith to go from the Hindu

  • view of the universe to humanistic values,

  • or from the Christian view of the universe

  • to humanistic values.

  • But it does from the materialistic, the secular view

  • to humanistic value.

  • You can believe them.

  • But don't tell me that that's not a leap of faith.

  • It's an enormous leap of faith.

  • And you know who's going to tell you?

  • Nietzsche.

  • Friedrich Nietzsche is going to say--

  • and this is what he did say, and he argued incredibly--

  • I would say in an incredibly convincing way-- he would say,

  • if you say I'm an atheist, and then

  • you say but we should not starve the poor

  • and we should honor their equal rights,

  • he says you're still a Christian, whether you admit it

  • or not.

  • Because, he says, those ideas came historically

  • into the Western society when people believed

  • in the Christian understanding of the universe--

  • that you're here for a purpose and you're made by a loving God

  • and you're made the image of God and all human beings are

  • children of God.

  • He says those values made sense when

  • we believed the Christian view of the universe.

  • But we don't believe that anymore.

  • And therefore, if you hold on to those values,

  • you're actually being a Christian, and a very, very

  • inconsistent person even though you won't admit it.

  • I don't think you can answer Nietzsche.

  • So now here is what we are.

  • Fundamentally, there are no irreligious people.

  • At one level, absolutely everybody has a set of beliefs,

  • including secular people and irreligious people,

  • have a set of beliefs about the universe

  • that A, you can't prove empirically, B,

  • are not self-evident to most of the rest of the world.

  • See, even if you can't prove something,

  • sometimes you can say, but everybody knows that.

  • Well, you can't say that about any particular set

  • of beliefs about the universe.

  • So in other words, you can't prove it.

  • If you're a secular person, your beliefs you can't prove.

  • B, your beliefs are not self-evident to most people

  • in the world.

  • And C, as I'm going to show you here in a second,

  • is your beliefs have as many contradictions and problems

  • that attend to them as any religious faith does.

  • So what does that mean?

  • Does that mean, oh, there is no way to know the truth?

  • No, no, no, no.

  • See, I'm trying to say everybody gets

  • their position-- religious people and irreligious

  • people-- get to their beliefs-- because in the end, what

  • you hold is a belief-- by a combination of reason

  • and intuition.

  • So for example, how do you use a reason to come to a conclusion?

  • One is you look at the logical consistency of your beliefs.

  • That's using reason.

  • Another thing you ask-- do the things

  • I believe fit in with what's out there in the world?

  • Does it fit in with what I see happening in the world?

  • That's using reason.

  • But then there's also a part, frankly--

  • everybody to some degree or other

  • also uses their emotions when it comes

  • to believing what they believe.

  • And they also look socially.

  • They say, I see other people who have these beliefs.

  • And how is that affecting their life?

  • So basically, the way any particular set of beliefs

  • comes to make sense to you is for emotional,

  • cultural, and rational reasons.

  • It has to make sense to you emotionally.

  • It has to make sense to you socially, culturally.

  • You see how the belief fleshes out

  • in the lives of other people.

  • And then thirdly, it does have to be logically consistent.

  • And there doesn't need to be rational reasons too.

  • And so everybody uses those three things

  • to get to their beliefs.

  • Now, what I do in the rest of this book--

  • and the other book's already been mentioned--

  • The Reason for God-- is I lay out mainly in this book

  • the emotional and cultural reasons why

  • Christianity tends to make sense to a lot of people.

  • And then at the very end, I start

  • going into the rational reasons, the more traditional kind

  • of arguments for God and Christianity.

  • But I start it-- but on the other hand, I finish it,

  • you might say, in The Reason for God."

  • So somebody asked me, what's the relationship of Making

  • Sense of God to Reason for God?

  • They say, is Making Sense of God a sequel to Reason for God?

  • I said, no, it's a prequel.

  • Because basically, the way we get there is we

  • use our emotions.

  • We use our relationships.

  • And we use our reason to decide what

  • we think about the universe.

  • Now, what I'm going to do in only six,

  • seven minutes, I guess, is I'm going to actually tell you

  • what I say in these other books as the emotional and social and

  • rational reasons why Christianity does come to make

  • sense to a lot of people.

  • But I'm actually going to do it as a series of assertions.

  • So this can be infuriating to many people.

  • So I'm really hoping that here at Google, we're all civilized,

  • that you don't rush the podium snarling at me.

  • Because I'm not going to make the case for any one

  • of these assertions.

  • I'm going to say people who find Christianity making

  • sense come to believe this.

  • And in the books, I actually lay out all kinds of reasons

  • for why.

  • So there's nothing I'm about to tell you is really groundless.

  • In the end, if you read the books, you might disagree.

  • But what I'm saying is not arbitrary or groundless, OK?

  • They were all kind of worked out in the books.

  • But if I was going to make a case in five minutes, which

  • I am, for why Christianity can make sense for a lot of people

  • and how it makes sense for other people,

  • I would say Christianity comes to make sense for us when we

  • see three things-- when we see the faith that takes to doubt

  • it, that is Christianity, the faith it takes to doubt it,

  • the problems we have without it, and the beauty

  • we see within it.

  • Now what do I mean by that?

  • First of all, fast here, the faith it takes to doubt it.

  • One of the ways in which people who are doubting Christianity

  • come to embrace it is when they realize

  • that all their doubts, every one of their doubts,

  • is always based on a leap of faith,

  • which is harder to justify than the thing you're doubting.

  • Follow that?

  • Wasn't that easy?

  • No.

  • In other words, every time you say, I doubt Christianity,

  • your doubt is based on actually an assumption of faith which

  • itself needs to be justified, and very often can't be.

  • So let me give you three examples.

  • Number one, one of the objections

  • I hear to Christianity all the time

  • is there can't just be one true way to believe.

  • There can't be one true faith.

  • There can be one true way to God.

  • There just can't be one true way to believe.

  • And here's the problem with that.

  • How do you know that?

  • I mean, that's an assertion, not an argument.

  • How do you know that there's not one true way?

  • The only way to know that there is not one sure way to God

  • would be actually if you have the ultimate perspective

  • on truth that you just said nobody is allowed to have.

  • And actually, what that means is that your doubt

  • is based on an assessment of your perspective, which

  • actually is a major leap of faith,

  • and I think is hard to justify.

  • Here's the second one.

  • People say, I can't believe in a God who

  • allows such evil and suffering.

  • And by the way, I'm a pastor.

  • I'm not a scholar.

  • I'm not an academic.

  • I'm not a person who mainly does thinking.

  • I'm a pastor, so I've walked with plenty of people

  • through horrible suffering.

  • So what I'm saying here I do not mean to be so cursory.

  • I told you this is the problem with what I'm about to do.

  • But here's the point.

  • When someone says I can't believe in God because he

  • allows such evil and suffering, what you actually are saying

  • is this.

  • Because I can't think of any good reason

  • why God would allow evil and suffering,

  • therefore, there can't be any good reason.

  • Because I can't think of it, he can't possibly

  • have one that I can't think of.

  • See, the only way to walk away from God

  • is to assume there can't be a good reason.

  • And why can't there be a good reason?

  • Because you can't think of it.

  • But why in the world, if there is a God,

  • couldn't he might maybe-- maybe he's

  • got an idea that you don't have.

  • And you see, ancient people, philosophers

  • will point out the ancient people,

  • though they struggled with evil and suffering,

  • never thought evil and suffering was a reason

  • not to believe in God.

  • You know why?

  • Because they were humbler about the human reason.

  • We are not so humble.

  • We have an assumption that we have

  • the powers of exhaustive surveillance,

  • that we should be able to look at the universe.

  • And if we can't think of anything, I mean,

  • our ancestors would never have been this arrogant.

  • Because we can't think of any good reason for evil

  • and suffering, therefore there can't be any.

  • So you see, you're actually assuming something.

  • You have a doubt, but it's based on a faith in yourself,

  • which how justifiable is it?

  • Here I'll give you one more.

  • There are lots and lots and lots of objections

  • to various parts of the bible.

  • And you need to realize that virtually all the objections

  • you might have to things the bible teaches

  • are based on high faith in your culture

  • and the superiority of your culture.

  • So for example, years ago, not too long ago,

  • I once talked about Christianity to a Chinese graduate student--

  • brilliant young man.

  • I was in Britain when I was at the time.

  • And you know what?

  • He had no problem with the idea that God would send people

  • to hell, no problem at all.

  • Because, he says, I'm not a Westerner.

  • And so the idea that God might have the authority

  • to send people to hell doesn't bother me.

  • I have no problem with that exercise of authority.

  • But he says, what I can't accept is this--

  • the individualistic nature of Christian salvation

  • means that if I believe in Jesus Christ,

  • I would not be with my ancestors.

  • And I don't want to believe anything that would separate me

  • from my ancestors.

  • And my guess is the average Manhattan young professional,

  • that's not the main problem they have with the bible. c

  • OK, I talked to a Middle Eastern intellectual over there.

  • And what she believed, interestingly enough,

  • what she says, I have no problem with the idea

  • that God would send people to hell, no problem at all.

  • If there is a God, why couldn't he do that?

  • He created us.

  • Doesn't he own us?

  • But then, she said, but she cannot accept what the bible

  • says about forgiveness, this idea that we are obligated

  • to forgive no matter what the other person has done,

  • that we have to forgive.

  • And even though most young Manhattanites

  • don't think about the difficulty of that, generally speaking,

  • that's another reason why it's probably

  • not the average New Yorker's problem with the bible

  • that it talks about forgiveness too much.

  • However, the average New Yorker is going to say,

  • I just can't accept a God who would send people to hell.

  • You know why?

  • Because at that moment, what you're saying

  • is my cultural location is superior to theirs.

  • My culture is absolutely right.

  • And it's never going to change.

  • For all you know, 100 years from now,

  • your great-grandchildren will think

  • that your approach to things is stupid.

  • In fact, inevitably they will, by the way.

  • If the record of your political views is somehow preserved,

  • your great-grandchildren will think you are horrible.

  • And yet on the basis of your cultural location, which you're

  • kind of absolutizing on the basis of your historical moment

  • which your kind of absolutizing, you're

  • going to throw the whole bible over.

  • See, every doubt of the bible is based on incredible faith

  • in something else which is really hard to justify--

  • the faith it takes to doubt it.

  • Do you see that?

  • Virtually always, Christianity starts

  • to make sense when you begin to see what incredible faith it

  • takes to doubt it.

  • Secondly, the problems you have without it.

  • Now, I'm really going to be fast.

  • But here's the point.

  • There are emotional, cultural, and rational problems

  • with not believing in God.

  • Now here, I'm kind of going at secularism.

  • And of course, you do have to weigh

  • Christianity and other religions to secularism.

  • But I don't have time for that unless you

  • want to ask me about it.

  • But here's the problems.

  • Number one, if you don't believe in God,

  • there is a problem with meaning.

  • Because the meaning that you create for

  • yourself will be too thin for you to handle suffering.

  • The secular culture, unlike religious cultures,

  • make you find your meaning and life

  • in something here, which means suffering can take it away.

  • And every other culture, whether it's

  • Hindu or Islam or Christian, every other kind of religion

  • helps you locate your meaning and life outside of this life

  • so that suffering can actually help you accomplish

  • your meaning in life.

  • But if you're a secular person, suffering

  • will destroy your meaning in life.

  • And secular culture gives its members

  • less resources to deal with suffering

  • than any culture in the history of the world.

  • And we are much more traumatized by it.

  • Number two, just these.

  • Secularism, the idea there is no God,

  • gives you a view of identity which is incredibly fragile.

  • Every other religion says you find

  • who you are by connecting to something more important

  • than you.

  • The secular culture says you find your identity

  • by looking inside and doing whatever

  • you think you want to do most.

  • And you assert it over and against everybody else.

  • And lots and lots of studies have

  • shown that kind of identity, which is really unique-- it's

  • not the way it works in the rest of the world or in history--

  • makes you incredibly fragile because you desperately

  • need a kind of recognition that it actually can enslave you.

  • Thirdly, it's not just the problem of meaning

  • and a problem of identity, it's also the problem of freedom.

  • Modern culture defines freedom as the absence of restrictions.

  • Isaiah Berlin, the philosopher Isaiah Berlin,

  • said there's two kinds of freedom.

  • There is negative freedom and there's positive freedom.

  • Negative freedom is freedom from.

  • Positive freedom is freedom for.

  • Negative freedom simply says, I'm

  • only free if I have no restrictions.

  • And I hope you all know if that's really

  • what freedom is, then that is antithetical to love.

  • Because the more committed your love relationship is,

  • the less free you are.

  • And yet, by the way, the more you

  • are in a wonderful committed love relationship,

  • generally the happier you are.

  • The fact is we've got a culture and a belief set that doesn't

  • support positive freedom.

  • It only supports negative freedom.

  • As a result, freedom actually tends

  • to eat up love relationships.

  • It's one of the reasons why we have fewer and fewer lifetime

  • committed love relationships because the view of freedom

  • that comes from highly individualistic view that

  • goes along with the secular view undermines that.

  • There's a whole lot of emotional problems.

  • But then there's the rational problems.

  • And I'll just simply mention them.

  • There's the problem, by the way, of existence itself.

  • There are really good arguments that

  • say it's difficult to understand if there is no God why there's

  • something rather than nothing.

  • If you want ask me about that, we can go into it.

  • But it's one of the problems you have

  • if you don't believe in God.

  • Another problem you have if you don't believe in God

  • is the problem of moral obligation.

  • If you don't believe in God, no trouble

  • accounting for moral feelings.

  • You have moral feelings, right?

  • Everybody in this room has some things you feel.

  • I feel this is right.

  • I feel this is wrong.

  • And if you don't believe in God, no problem explaining it.

  • It could be evolution.

  • That's why we have those feelings.

  • Or it could be your culture has taught you those things.

  • Or it could be an existential choice of yours.

  • Whatever.

  • But if there is no God, it's hard to see how there

  • could be moral obligation.

  • See, a moral feeling says, I feel this is wrong.

  • A moral obligation is to say you must stop doing that,

  • whether you feel it's wrong or not.

  • See?

  • How can you say to another person even though you

  • feel it's OK, it's wrong.

  • And you ought to-- obligation-- stop doing it.

  • See, why should your feeling trump that person's feeling?

  • Well, the only way to say that is to say there's a higher law.

  • There's something outside.

  • There's a moral source outside of both of us.

  • We all have to honor that.

  • But what can that be if there is no God?

  • You know, Martin Luther King, Jr.,

  • in his famous letter at Birmingham jail,

  • put it like this.

  • He said, if there is no higher divine law,

  • if there is no God, no higher divine law,

  • there will be no way to tell if a particular human law was

  • unjust or not because it would just

  • be my feelings versus your feelings.

  • Big problem.

  • Lastly, the beauty.

  • The beauty that we find within it.

  • Christianity has a beauty to it.

  • I mean, first of all, there's the idea--

  • the Christian idea of God is that God is not an individual.

  • But God is a trinity of three persons

  • who have known and loved each other from all eternity.

  • And you all know, if you're into a real love relationship,

  • that's when you're really the happiest.

  • So if you have Father, Son, and Holy Spirit

  • according to Christian teaching having perfect love

  • relationships for all eternity, we're

  • utterly happy-- totally happy, you might say.

  • Why would you create a world filled

  • with other personal beings if you're already perfectly happy?

  • And the answer is to share your happiness with them.

  • There's no other good reason.

  • You already have everything.

  • So the Christian idea is that God actually

  • created us to share his happiness and love.

  • Then secondly, the Christian story

  • is that we turned away from him.

  • And that's the reason why things fall apart.

  • The center cannot hold.

  • Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world.

  • Christianity has a story of what happened

  • to the universe that explains both the ruin

  • and the glory of the human race.

  • Any story that just looks at human beings as trash

  • or any story that looks at human beings as basically good

  • and does not recognize the good and the evil in them

  • doesn't really account for how things

  • are, doesn't lead you to expect what's

  • going to happen tomorrow.

  • And so Christianity, the beauty of the story

  • is, God, who wants to share his love and unhappiness with us,

  • an account of what's wrong with us, then thirdly, a love story.

  • He comes into the world as Jesus Christ.

  • Dorothy Sayers-- one of the first women who

  • ever went to Oxford, and she wrote detective novels.

  • And one of her detectives was Lord Peter Wimsey,

  • and she wrote a series of stories and novels about him.

  • He solves mysteries.

  • And halfway through the stories, suddenly a woman

  • shows up to him, Harriet Vane.

  • She's one of the very first women who went to Oxford,

  • and she also wrote mystery stories.

  • So Harriet Vane character shows up in the Peter Wimsey stories.

  • She's one of the first women graduates of Oxford.

  • She writes mystery stories.

  • And she's not particularly good-looking.

  • Wait a minute.

  • Who is this?

  • Dorothy Sayers, many people believe,

  • looked at this character that she had created,

  • saw how lonely he was, and wrote herself

  • into the story out of love.

  • And Harriet Vane saves him.

  • And of course, the Christian story--

  • you might say, oh, that's sweet.

  • What a sweet idea.

  • The Christian story, that's exactly what God did.

  • He looks into the world he created.

  • He sees us harming each other, ruining each other.

  • And he writes himself in the story.

  • And in Jesus Christ, he goes to the cross

  • and dies to pay for our sins so that God can forgive

  • us and still be a just God.

  • If you're a judge, you can't just forgive people.

  • You know, the law needs to be paid.

  • You can't just say, oh, it doesn't

  • matter what you've done.

  • Go off.

  • Well then, justice falls apart.

  • But how could God be both just and forgive us?

  • And the answer was Jesus Christ.

  • God, in a sense, writes himself into the story

  • because he loves us and does all that for us.

  • And that's the reason why, in the end, by the way,

  • if you read the gospels, one of the main reasons that people

  • come to believe in Jesus Christ is they read the gospels,

  • and they see Jesus.

  • They see his claims.

  • They see his humility.

  • They see his grace.

  • They see his courage.

  • And you read through the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke,

  • and John.

  • And you're amazed at this.

  • And some years ago, there was a pastor

  • I knew who was confronted by a non-believer who said,

  • I would believe in God if you can give me

  • a watertight argument.

  • And the minister said, read the New Testament.

  • And he said, you mean, there's a watertight argument there?

  • He says, well, not exactly.

  • There's Jesus Christ.

  • And he says, you know, what if God

  • didn't give us a watertight argument to lead us to himself?

  • What if he gave us a watertight person

  • against whom, in the end, there is no argument?

  • Read him, and you'll see there's almost no way to account

  • for the beauty of this person unless maybe he

  • is who he said he is.

  • OK, slightly longer than I wanted

  • to go and also slightly faster than I wanted to go.

  • So I'm just an unhappy guy.

  • So let's see what we can do.

  • So those are some ways why we need

  • to worry about and be concerned about how people come

  • to their beliefs, and how it's possible for Christians

  • to make sense even today.

  • Questions?

  • The best way to do it would be to go to your mic

  • because otherwise, you will not be picked up for the recording.

  • Yes, go ahead.

  • AUDIENCE: Well, first of all, thank you so much for coming.

  • This has been really interesting and a great opportunity.

  • And I wanted to ask.

  • I know you talked a lot about the arguments for religion

  • and the arguments against secularism,

  • but I wanted to ask you about spirituality,

  • in that I and some of my peers very much do believe

  • that there is a higher power.

  • And we don't believe in secularism.

  • There is something that connects us all

  • that created us on this Earth.

  • But that doesn't necessarily translate into religion.

  • And there's a lot of the dogma.

  • And Christianity and other religions

  • don't necessarily appeal.

  • They make us uncomfortable, especially the way

  • it can be used sometimes for hate today.

  • TIM KELLER: Yes.

  • AUDIENCE: And also, necessarily kind of figuring out

  • the differences between them.

  • Why would one choose Christianity over Judaism,

  • over Hinduism, when they all have

  • these different beautiful ways of bringing people together?

  • TIM KELLER: They do.

  • AUDIENCE: But you're obviously a pastor

  • and of the Christian faith.

  • So you made a choice.

  • TIM KELLER: Well, yeah.

  • AUDIENCE: So if you have any thoughts on that.

  • TIM KELLER: You only have-- generally speaking,

  • it's hard to have more than one career.

  • It's hard to be both Muslim and a Buddhist

  • and a Christian cleric, five years of each.

  • It doesn't work.

  • I'll tell you what.

  • I would suggest two things.

  • I'm going to read you something out of the book,

  • believe it or not.

  • Thank you, actually.

  • You asked a question that gets me to the book.

  • Oh, were you finished with the question?

  • AUDIENCE: Yeah.

  • TIM KELLER: OK, I would suggest on the multiple faiths,

  • there is a book by John Dixon-- he's Australian--

  • who wrote a book called The Spectator's Guide to World

  • Religions.

  • Now, like me, he's a Christian minister.

  • But I read the book recently.

  • And he said, I'm trying to create five small vignettes.

  • He did Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity,

  • and Judaism.

  • And he lays it out very, very as objectively as he possibly can.

  • He does everything he possibly can.

  • He says, I'm sure critics will say

  • it's obvious to see even the way you handle Buddhism

  • that you're a Christian.

  • But he said, I tried real hard.

  • Besides that, everybody who would write a book like that

  • would have to come from some position generally.

  • And it's a really, really helpful book.

  • Because what it does is it just lays out the differences

  • and tries very hard to say, now, you make the decision

  • rather than him doing it.

  • That's one side.

  • Here's the other side though.

  • The last part of this book is actually the story

  • of a guy named Langdon Gilkey.

  • Langdon Gilkey was a young man who

  • graduated from Harvard with a philosophy degree

  • with honors in the 1930s and went to China

  • to teach at a university there.

  • And when the Japanese overran that part of China,

  • he was put into a detention camp.

  • It was a really, really, really difficult place.

  • 2,000 people in less than a city block.

  • Everybody had something like-- there was

  • 20 toilets for 2,000 people.

  • It was a very, very difficult situation.

  • And when he went there, growing up,

  • he had lost his church faith.

  • He had actually believed in the goodness of human beings,

  • and rationality is the way to overcome our problems,

  • and that religion actually wouldn't help much.

  • When he was there, he basically came

  • to see that there is absolutely no way.

  • Human beings are basically selfish.

  • He actually says at one point-- I marked this in case somebody

  • asked this question.

  • He says he came to believe what the bible said about sin.

  • He said self-interest seemed almost

  • omnipotent next to the weak claims of logic and fair play.

  • As the months went by, he constantly

  • faced intractable self-centeredness.

  • And he actually said, he says, the fundamental bent

  • of the whole human self in all of us

  • was inward toward our own welfare.

  • And we're so immersed in it that we hardly are ever

  • able to see this in ourselves, much less extricate ourselves

  • from our dilemma.

  • He says everybody he saw who were really being cruel,

  • they always gave rational and moral reasons

  • for what they were already determined to do.

  • He says even the most moral and religious people--

  • because there were a lot of priests and missionaries

  • there who had been working in China who were thrown

  • in with everybody else-- he says the most religious people found

  • it incredibly difficult, not to say impossible,

  • to will the good and to be objective

  • and to be generous and fair.

  • And what they actually did, though,

  • was they always gave religious reasons

  • for what they were doing.

  • So he got incredibly disillusioned.

  • Because here was the secular people.

  • They were being incredibly selfish.

  • And here were the religious people.

  • And they were being every bit as selfish.

  • The secular people were using rational reasons

  • for why they were being selfish and cruel

  • to the other neighbors.

  • They were just trying to survive.

  • And he says, the religious people

  • were using religious reasons.

  • So he started being pushed back toward belief in sin.

  • But then, there's one guy-- now the guy in the book,

  • the guy's name is Eric Ridley.

  • But it's actually Eric Liddell that you might

  • know was in "Chariots Of Fire."

  • He was a Presbyterian Scottish guy who wouldn't run on Sunday,

  • but then did win the 400-meter gold

  • medal in the 1921 Olympics.

  • He went to China as a missionary.

  • And he was put in the camp.

  • And he died of a brain tumor in there at the age of 43.

  • But he had an amazing impact.

  • And this is actually, believe it or not,

  • is answering your question.

  • [LAUGHTER]

  • He had an amazing impact on Gilkey.

  • Gilkey said, it's rare indeed when

  • a person has the good fortune to meet a saint.

  • But he came as close as anyone I had ever known.

  • Eric Liddell was concerned to minister

  • to the teenagers of the camp.

  • He cooked for them.

  • He supervised recreation for them.

  • He poured himself out for them.

  • He was about the only person that Gilkey

  • saw in the whole camp who was always overflowing with humor,

  • love of life, sacrificial kindness for others,

  • and inward peace.

  • And when he died of a brain tumor suddenly,

  • the entire camp was stunned.

  • So he was trying to say, what made this guy different?

  • I mean, there were a lot of missionaries.

  • There were a lot of religions.

  • What made him different?

  • And this is what he said.

  • Liddell-- this is what Gilkey says--

  • was a committed Presbyterian missionary who believed

  • in Christ, but that his salvation was accomplished

  • by God's sheer and free grace.

  • He did not believe-- and this is a Christian teaching--

  • you do not believe that that God loves you

  • because you are living a good life, because you

  • are surrendering your will, because you're

  • charitable to people.

  • Believes it's totally sheer grace

  • because of what Jesus did.

  • And Gilkey then points out that religion all by

  • itself does not necessarily produce the changed heart

  • capable of moral selflessness.

  • Often, religion can just make our self-centeredness worse,

  • especially if it leads us to pride

  • in our moral accomplishments.

  • So he came to see religious people were

  • kind of self-centered in their religiosity

  • because they thought, my religiosity makes

  • me a good person.

  • That's why God loves me.

  • And he says, it actually didn't make them less selfish.

  • It made them part of the problem, people

  • just scrambling and trampling other people so they

  • can survive.

  • Gilkey says, in Liddell, we have a picture

  • of what a human being could be if he was both humbled and yet

  • profoundly affirmed and filled with the knowledge of God's

  • unconditional love through undeserved grace.

  • And this is the last thing Gilkey says.

  • He's quoting Reinhold Niebuhr here.

  • He says, religion is not the place

  • where the problem of man's egotism

  • is automatically solved.

  • Rather, it is there that the ultimate battle

  • between human pride and God's grace takes place.

  • If human pride wins the battle-- that is to say,

  • if you adopt a religion that makes

  • you more proud of your goodness-- he says,

  • if human pride wins the battle, religion can and does

  • become one of the instruments of human sin.

  • And this is what you're talking about.

  • But if there is a self that does meet God and surrenders

  • to something beyond its own self-interest, the grace

  • of God, religion may provide the one possibility

  • for a much needed and very rare release

  • from our common self-concern.

  • So I would say check out all the different religions.

  • But the genius of Christianity, even though many people

  • who are professing Christians don't see it,

  • is that religion by itself actually makes

  • you as bad as everybody else.

  • In fact, it can make you worse because it

  • makes you a Pharisee.

  • But the doctrine of the grace of God

  • that you're saved by sheer grace humbles you, and yet affirms

  • you at the same time.

  • You're so bad Jesus had to die for you.

  • But you're so loved that Jesus was willing to die for you.

  • And so Gilkey saw, here's a guy who actually got it.

  • And he was different.

  • So that would be my answer.

  • The reason it was long was because it

  • was a great question, my answer, and also

  • because I wanted to say it.

  • Anyway, yes, sir.

  • Thank you.

  • AUDIENCE: Hey, thank you for speaking.

  • It seemed to me like a lot of your argument

  • against secularism or humanism was predicated on this idea

  • that human evolution and evolution in general

  • is sort of Hobbesian and ruthless.

  • And I'm wondering how you would respond

  • to an alternative hypothesis, which

  • is that humans, like some other species,

  • actually evolved having a lot of benefit of social cooperation

  • and in group goal-setting.

  • And nested within that, there's actually a huge benefit for us

  • to tell stories and have beliefs in order

  • to get us to work together as a group.

  • And if that's plausible, why it wouldn't actually

  • make more sense for us to by some democratic process

  • come up with a new form of philosophy, rules, governance,

  • social norms that lead us to collaborate

  • and have a lot of the humanist ideals

  • that I think many religious people and many secular people

  • would find advantageous to us as a species.

  • TIM KELLER: Right.

  • Three things by which I will defend myself.

  • That's a great idea.

  • Great thoughts there.

  • Number one, I would say that wouldn't be most of it.

  • Yes, you're right in saying that's part

  • of my argument against secularism.

  • But it's not the whole thing.

  • So number one.

  • That's a minor one.

  • Number two, as you know, not everybody

  • believes that groups survive because they

  • learned to be altruistic and to take care of each other.

  • There is a huge amount of debate about that.

  • You say, if it could be shown, well, it hasn't been yet.

  • It might be.

  • But even there, by the way, you do know, do you

  • not, you might be able to make the case,

  • for example, that people in your clan or tribe

  • survive because they were unselfish with each other.

  • It is hard to know how we came to the place

  • where, through evolution, we actually

  • believe that it is good to take care of anybody at all.

  • In other words, my feeling that it would be not only

  • good to take care of my own kind,

  • but to be kind to somebody who's not my own kind, how could

  • that have ever allowed somebody to survive in the past?

  • That's part of the debate that white people are saying maybe

  • what you're saying isn't provable.

  • But here's the third thing.

  • Even if it was true, even if it comes to be proven,

  • all that proves is that it's selfish to be unselfish.

  • All that proves is not that it's wrong to be unselfish,

  • but that it benefits you to be unselfish.

  • So in the end, it's a selfish, pragmatic argument

  • that doesn't say that it's wrong to be unselfish, just that it

  • would be in your benefit.

  • See, I think most of us believe not

  • that killing an innocent person is practical.

  • It's impractical.

  • In other words, the best that you could argue for

  • is that killing somebody else or being unkind is impractical.

  • We don't believe that.

  • We believe it's wrong whether it's practical or not.

  • So in other words, evolution can never give you an ought.

  • It can only give you a what would work.

  • In the end, it can only support pragmatism,

  • and not the moral intuitions that all the religions have,

  • that something's wrong whether it's impractical or not.

  • All you could do is to say it would

  • be impractical to be unselfish.

  • But in the end, weirdly enough, you're

  • appealing to selfishness, selfish motives,

  • to be unselfish.

  • And this, by the way, Nietzsche also took that idea apart.

  • He takes apart the idea that you can

  • appeal to someone's self-interest

  • to make them unselfish.

  • You can appeal to their desire to survive to teach

  • them to care for other people.

  • In the end, it doesn't really work.

  • So I've got three objections.

  • And yet, I want people to have humanistic values

  • for any reason at all, frankly, because it does make the world

  • a better place.

  • So in the end, would religious people like this approach?

  • Yeah, I would.

  • But I just try to show you where I thought

  • there's still some holes in it.

  • AUDIENCE: Well, we can agree on that last part.

  • Thank you.

  • TIM KELLER: OK.

  • Yeah?

  • AUDIENCE: So again, thank you for being here.

  • In addition to filling out this room,

  • we actually have crowds in California

  • and a number of our other global offices that are tuning in.

  • And so I just wanted to take a minute.

  • There's actually several questions

  • that came in in [INAUDIBLE].

  • TIM KELLER: Good.

  • AUDIENCE: I wanted to write one that came

  • from Ambrose in California.

  • And he asks about technology and faith,

  • which I believe your church has a initiative going on

  • in this area.

  • He said, technology has an immense power

  • to improve people's lives and make a positive difference

  • in the world, which is why many of us are here at Google.

  • Does the Christian world view have

  • an opinion about how technology should be used?

  • Are there categories or problems that technology can't solve,

  • or at least improve?

  • TIM KELLER: Well, I think Langdon Gilkey--

  • I'd say Langdon Gilkey would say--

  • that the basic selfishness of the human heart, which

  • most of us don't see.

  • It hides.

  • He says, when you get into a place like the Shantung

  • Compund-- when he was in that compound,

  • and everybody was in close, he says when it's about survival,

  • he says, very, very few people are kind and open.

  • And he says, human beings are so selfish and so out

  • for themselves, they hide it from themselves

  • till push comes to shove.

  • I don't know how this technology changes that.

  • In fact, what Gilkey actually says-- what he actually says

  • is if you love yourself, if your highest good is your own self,

  • then it's going to make you selfish.

  • If your highest good is your people,

  • it'll make you a racist.

  • If your highest good is your family,

  • it'll create patriarchy and paternalism.

  • He says really the only way that you can make decisions

  • about right or wrong is what is your highest good?

  • And if your highest good isn't God,

  • it's got to be one of these other things.

  • And you're going to turn that into an absolute.

  • And that's going to actually be another vehicle

  • for self-interest.

  • But not only belief in God, but an experience

  • of the grace of God can actually change

  • that inner self-absorption, self-centered,

  • which is the reason for all of the problems in the world.

  • And my friend, just a minute ago,

  • I was trying to make the cases that if the best thing you can

  • do is sort of harness it by appealing to selfishness,

  • then you're really still not going after the root.

  • What you're doing is you're trimming it.

  • In fact, that's what we do with our kids.

  • Generally out of selfishness, we teach

  • them to be unselfish because frankly, it'll

  • get them where they want to go.

  • I mean, I'm afraid a lot of that happens.

  • To really get at the root, according I

  • think as a Christian minister, you're

  • going to need spiritual reasons.

  • Spiritual resources, not just technology.

  • Technology, ultimately, is a tool.

  • But it's an instrument.

  • It's a means.

  • But it's not an end.

  • You're going have to decide what your end is.

  • Yes, sir?

  • Were you going to do some others?

  • Or was that?

  • OK, go ahead.

  • AUDIENCE: We have two minutes.

  • TIM KELLER: OK.

  • AUDIENCE: OK, I'll be fast.

  • Dr. Keller, I like the way that you

  • talked about those who are religious and those who

  • are secular and the things that are actually

  • very similar between them, even though they might not

  • recognize it.

  • TIM KELLER: Oh yeah.

  • AUDIENCE: One of the things that the tech community

  • in particular and the broader community in general

  • has been focused on is gender equality and gender balance.

  • And it's been a big struggle in the tech community.

  • And I don't have a perspective on this

  • from the Christian perspective.

  • From an outside point of view, a text

  • that talks about God the father and Jesus

  • the son and the twelve apostles has a very male perspective

  • on it.

  • And I was kind of curious if you could

  • talk about how you see the Christian community

  • and your fellowship struggling with some of these things that

  • are interesting both to seculars and people who are religious.

  • TIM KELLER: Did you hear the lady?

  • Two minutes.

  • AUDIENCE: In the remaining 60 seconds.

  • TIM KELLER: You're not helping.

  • [LAUGHING]

  • Gee.

  • Look, at the very beginning of the bible,

  • it says God made humanity in his own image.

  • And then it says, male and female, he created them.

  • And there is indications not only

  • that obviously male and female are both equally

  • made in the image of God.

  • But there's even maybe a hint-- though this is debatable--

  • there's even a hint that male and female together

  • reflect all the glories of God better

  • than either male or female.

  • What that would argue for-- and this is basically

  • what I think Christianity-- not all,

  • I mean, there's great differences.

  • I'm making this a short answer so I

  • can take one more question.

  • But basically, I think the Christian approach would

  • be to say male and female are equal, and not absolutely

  • interchangeable.

  • In fact, a lot of feminism would say, no, they're not.

  • There is a female way to lead that is going to be different.

  • That they are equal, but they're not interchangeable.

  • And yet, at the same time, frankly, they

  • should be, they're irreplaceable for each other.

  • In other words, each one brings certain of God's glories

  • and strengths into a process, into an event,

  • into a community the other one can't bring.

  • And because of that, we desperately need each other.

  • So they're equal, not interchangeable,

  • but equally important.

  • And actually, we're interdependent.

  • We really can't live without each other.

  • And that's whether we're married or not.

  • We need to be into communities where

  • both male and female are using their gifts

  • and their abilities.

  • That's about it.

  • Do you want to do that one more question?

  • Or Barbara, do we feel like we don't?

  • Yeah, do we have one more from outside of the-- yeah,

  • and that'll be it.

  • AUDIENCE: This is also coming from Mountain View.

  • It says, I'm a twentysomething Christian and an American.

  • I'm often told by older Christian friends and family

  • that America is becoming increasingly secular.

  • Christian morality is disappearing.

  • Society is degradating.

  • And we're at a perilous point in history.

  • Do you think that's a valid assessment?

  • Or should Christians be concerned?

  • How do you think Christians should

  • respond to cultural shifts toward secularism?

  • TIM KELLER: Well, we're in luck, because that's an easy question

  • to answer, believe it or not.

  • The point is that it's both good and bad news.

  • The answer is I don't like the full decline narrative.

  • If God is in charge, and America is getting more secular, then

  • God's got some good purpose for that, OK?

  • And one of which I think is to humble Christians

  • and say to some degree, when we were more in power,

  • we didn't use our power very well.

  • So it's time to really rethink who we are

  • and what it means to relate in the world.

  • So it's just not all bad news.

  • But on the other hand, it is getting more secular, yes.

  • And the future will be, I think, difficult for Christians

  • to adjust-- American Christians--

  • I'm so glad he said, I'm an American and a Christian.

  • Because frankly, there's almost nowhere else in the world

  • where Christians have this memory

  • of a sort of past influence.

  • Because most everywhere else, Christians are a minority.

  • And they learn how to be good neighbors

  • and still to lift up what they believe and still serve others.

  • American Christians are going to have

  • to humble themselves and become, frankly,

  • better neighbors than they have been in the past.

  • And that's not bad news.

  • But there will be some sad things happen too.

  • There will be some things lost in our culture too.

  • OK.

  • BARBARA: All right, thank you, Dr. Keller.

  • [APPLAUSE]

  • Thank you all.

  • Awesome.

  • [APPLAUSE]

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