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  • - Our Father, we thank you that you've gathered so many people here to learn how

  • to understand your word and learn of your word, learn how to communicate your word

  • here at this Gospel Coalition conference this year. Thanks for bringing us here

  • safely. Thanks for the innumerable interactions that strengthen our hearts,

  • strengthen our relationships, strengthen our ties with you and with each other.

  • Thanks for the instruction that's going on right now, especially. I pray not only for

  • us here, but for all the workshops, that you would help us to stir each other up to

  • love and good works, iron sharpening iron, learning, having the word of God dwell on

  • us richly. We pray that this would happen in all these various workshops and

  • classes. We ask it in Jesus' name. Amen.

  • Okay. I'm glad to be with you. This is supposed to be a workshop. Isn't that a

  • laugh, with this many people? However, I'm going to do this. I'm going to give you a

  • talk, a lecture, and then, even though only a very tiny percentage and probably

  • the most pathologically extroverted of you will have an opportunity to ask questions.

  • We will have some mics up front. There's quite a lot of you, and the ones who want

  • to ask questions should, because it's just so boring to listen to somebody talk for

  • an hour. I want you to be able to drill down on some things that you hear

  • and get a little more information.

  • So preaching to the heart, the subject. Alec Motyer, in his great little book,

  • "Preaching?" Alec Motyer is an Old Testament scholar and an expository

  • preacher. He's British or Irish, I think. He's, I think, in his 90s now and written

  • a great little book on expository preaching.

  • In the book, he says this. He says that "preachers have not one, but two

  • responsibilities, First to the truth, and secondly to the particular group of people

  • in front of you. How will they best hear the truth? How are we to shape and phrase

  • it, so it comes home to them in a way that is palatable, that gains the most

  • receptive hearing and avoids needless hurt?"

  • So what Motyer says is if you want to be- If you're a communicator of the

  • Bible, you've got two responsibilities. You've got a responsibility to the truth,

  • to hold it up, to present it accurately, to make sure you're expanding the text,

  • but you also have a responsibility to the people. You need to give them the truth in

  • a way that changes them, that, as he puts it, that you give them the truth in a way

  • they can best hear it, in a way that it can most shape and phrase. You can shape

  • and phrase it so that it comes home to them.

  • Now, if this is the case, and I think it is, most of our teaching and most of our

  • books on preaching and exposition are fairly unbalanced. Almost always, the

  • books give almost all the time is dedicated to how do you expound the text,

  • how do you understand the truth.

  • There might be a chapter on application or a chapter on preaching to the heart, but

  • even though Alec Motyer rightly says you basically have two tasks, be true to the

  • truth and be true to the people that are in front of you, we actually don't spend

  • that much time talking about how do you bring the truth home in a way that

  • actually changes lives.

  • It's one of the reasons why an awful lot of our expository preaching isn't very

  • life-changing. There's not a great deal of- There really isn't a lot of great

  • stuff written about how to preach to the heart.

  • Sinclair Ferguson has a chapter in the book, "Feed My Sheep." There's a book

  • called "Feed My Sheep: Passionate Plea for Preaching." It's an older book, good

  • book. Sinclair's got a chapter in there called "Preaching to the Heart."

  • Sam Logan has a book, pardon me, has a chapter in the book, "The Preacher and

  • Preaching." This is very confusing, by the way. Lloyd Jones wrote a book called

  • "Preaching and Preachers," but there was also a book put together by Westminster

  • Seminary faculty, back in the 1980s, called "The Preacher and Preaching." In

  • that book, Sam Logan wrote a chapter called "The Phenomenology of Preaching,"

  • which is basically on preaching to the heart.

  • There's a new book by Josh Moody and Robin Weeks, called "Preaching to the Heart, " I

  • think, or "Preaching to the Affections," I think it's called. But by and large, we

  • haven't spent much time on it.

  • Now, so I would like to give you an overview of why it's important to preach

  • to the heart and how you do it. I'm gonna probably constantly be thinking about,

  • because I am, I'm gonna be constantly thinking about working preachers who are

  • preaching every Sunday, but this is- What I'm about to tell you, I hope, is

  • gonna fit anybody who communicates the Bible, whether you teach the Bible, lead

  • Bible studies, teach, preach. I think this should be broadly applicable in many ways.

  • So just a couple ideas on why it's important to preach to the heart. The

  • biblical understanding of heart is just unique in human thought. The Greeks and

  • the Romans, the ancients, understood that the passions were connected to the body,

  • but the mind, the reason, and the will were connected to the soul.

  • Basically they believed that virtue was a matter of, literally, mind over matter.

  • That is, if you wanted to be a person of loyalty, if you wanted to be a person of

  • courage, if you wanted to have any virtue at all, what it meant was you stifled the

  • emotions. The reason needed to control the emotions, and that was a virtuous person.

  • So the ancients always pitted the thinking and the feelings against each other, and

  • the thinking needed to squelch and keep down the feelings. That's what produced a

  • virtuous person. However, on the other hand, modern thought has reversed that. We

  • live in what Charles Taylor calls the Age of Authenticity, and we believe that the

  • most important thing is that you look into your heart and see what your deepest

  • feelings are and your deepest desires and dreams, and you fulfill them.

  • So we do the same thing today, in our modern society. We now, however, have

  • reversed things. It's your feelings that are the true you. The ancient Greeks and

  • the Romans thought your feelings was the false you. They had to do with your body.

  • They weren't the true you. They weren't part of the spirit.

  • So they pitted mind versus the feelings. Modern people do that too, except they

  • reverse it. You have to let it go. You can't hold it back anymore. I've been told

  • all my life, I mustn't feel. I have to conceal. All right. Right? That would be a

  • great song. Wouldn't it? Three billion people would hear me sing that on YouTube.

  • In other words, we have always pitted, you might say, the mind and the emotions.

  • It used to be the mind was more important than emotions. Today, the emotions are

  • more important than the mind. The Bible's understanding of the heart is completely

  • different, and it's not halfway in the middle. It's off the charts.

  • Why? As you have often heard, and I mentioned this yesterday, the biblical

  • understanding of the heart is that the heart is the seat, not so much of the

  • emotions, but it is the seat of what you trust the most, what you are committed to

  • the most. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Proverbs 3. Where your treasure is,

  • there is your heart. Matthew 6.

  • What we're talking about is the thing or the things that you most trust in, hope

  • in, the things that most capture your imagination, that you face, the center of

  • your attention, the center of your commitments, your main commitments.

  • Whatever those things are affect your mind, your will, and your emotions. So

  • whatever your heart trusts in the most affects not only your emotions. It also

  • affects your thinking.

  • So in some ways, the heart is the seat of the mind, the will, and the emotions

  • because it's coming from the trusts. This is the reason why, when St. Augustine

  • wrote "The Confessions," it was like a bomb dropped. No one in history had ever

  • seen anything like the book of "The Confessions."

  • The reason is because St. Augustine was spending his time looking at his past and

  • figuring out his emotions. So in the past, in ancient times, nobody ever spent any

  • kind of time thinking about your emotions. Emotions were things to be ignored or to

  • be squelched. Here's Augustine, sifting them. Now many people have said Augustine,

  • therefore, was the first modern person, but yes and no. There's a long story

  • there. Because today, we don't do what Augustine

  • was doing either. Augustine was being biblical because he was saying, "No, you

  • don't squelch the emotions or ignore them. On the other hand, you don't just vent the

  • emotions and express them. You sift the emotions. You evaluate the emotions, and

  • then you redirect the emotions toward God."

  • It's not like the emotions and the heart. Because obviously, by the way, the heart

  • does include emotions. It's not less than the emotions. It's more, but it's not

  • less. Emotions are not great, and they're not terrible. They're not unimportant.

  • They're not all important. They need to be directed toward God.

  • What that means is what you really are is basically what you love the most. Using

  • the word love here is not just an emotion. Essentially it's not your beliefs, at

  • least not the beliefs you subscribe to, that actually makes you what you are. It's

  • what your heart trusts in, what your heart loves the most.

  • You can say, "I believe in God. God is this, and God is this, and God is this."

  • Yeah, your heart is basically based in your career. We all know how that works.

  • Your heart is actually trusting in career. Your mind is saying, "No, no, no. I trust

  • in Jesus for my salvation. I trust in Jesus for this and that and all. " But

  • where is your heart?

  • Jonathan Edwards, who was a great Augustinian, therefore, said that if

  • you're gonna be thoroughly biblical, you must not pit knowledge and feeling against

  • each other. If you say, "I know I should be generous with my money, but I'm just

  • not doing it," he would say, "Well, there's a sense in which you know what you

  • should do, but you're not doing it, but there's another sense in which you don't

  • really know what you should do." Let me give you an example. Excuse me. I'm

  • better than I was yesterday, but not as better as I'd like it to be. When I was a

  • pastor in Virginia, many years ago, I had a young girl in my church. She was about

  • 15 years old, I guess.

  • She was discouraged. She was depressed, often. At one point, the family was a

  • prominent family in the church. I tried to help the family with her. At one point,

  • she came into my study, and we were talking. Being a young minister, I was a

  • little bit naive, and I said, "How are you?" She was downcast.

  • I said, "Well, you're a Christian. Aren't you?" "Oh, yes. I'm a Christian."

  • "Christians have many blessings. Don't they?" "Oh, yes. We do." So we counted

  • the blessings a little bit, about the great things that, as a Christian, she

  • could count on and she knew was happening there and all those

  • great things in her life.

  • But at one point, I said, "So you're still depressed." She said... I tried to

  • encourage her, but here's what she said, almost literally, "Yes. I know that Jesus

  • loves me. I know he saved me, and I know he's gonna take me to Heaven. But what

  • good is all that when not a single boy at school will even look at you?"

  • I don't know why more of you aren't laughing at that. What she was saying was,

  • "Yeah, I'm saved. Yes, I'm going to Heaven forever. Yes, I'm a daughter of the king.

  • Yes, I'm gonna be glorified. I'm justified, sanctified, glorified, and all

  • that. But you know what? I'm in ninth grade, tenth grade, and there's not a

  • single boy will ask me out."

  • Now, here's what Jonathan Edwards would say. He would say she had the opinion that

  • God loved her, but she had no real knowledge that God loved her, because the

  • love of boys was more real to her heart than the love of God, or she wouldn't have

  • been depressed. So in one sense, you could say what she

  • just needed to be told... Well, what did she need to be told? See, what Edwards

  • would say is she needed to be shown the love of God in such a way that it began to

  • get more real to her heart, and it began to balance out how popular

  • she was or unpopular she was.

  • Some years ago . . . One more before I talk about how to do it. Some years ago,

  • I had a relative who never would wear a seat belt. Every time I

  • talked to him, he would get in the car, and he wouldn't wear his seat belt, and we

  • all would nag him about wearing a seat belt. All right. He put his seat belt on.

  • One day, we went to see him. He got in the car and put his seat belt on right away.

  • We said, "What happened to you?" He said, "Well, " he said, "I went to a friend of

  • mine. A couple weeks ago, I went to see a friend of mine in the hospital. He was in

  • a car crash, and he went through the windshield. He had like 200 stitches in

  • his face. For some strange reason, ever since then,

  • I've been having no problem buckling up."

  • I talked to him a little bit about that. What was interesting going on was I said,

  • "Well, did you get new information? What changed you? Did you not know that people

  • go through the windshield? What happened was an abstract proposition became

  • connected to an actual sensory experience, that is something he saw.

  • There's some place where Jonathan Edwards, the whole idea behind preaching to the

  • heart. At some point, where Jonathan Edwards says, "It's only when you attach.

  • It's only when you actually attach an abstract truth to some kind of sensory

  • experience that you've had, or at least the memory of a sensory experience that

  • you've had" I'm gonna show you how to do this in a second.

  • Something that you know is true becomes real to you. The point of preaching to the

  • heart is to take abstract truth and to make it real to people's heart,

  • so that they are changed.

  • A lot of us would like it if people took notes from our sermons or our talks, and

  • then went out into the world and started to change their life. But what I'm telling

  • you is, Jonathan Edwards never spoke that much about preaching. But in one of his

  • books, "Thoughts on Revival," he actually says about preaching that preaching does

  • not change you by giving people information, that then they go out and

  • practice as much as. It changes you through the impression

  • it's made during the sermon.

  • What he means is this. If that girl is sitting under preaching, that 16-year-old

  • girl who's, by the way, probably in her 50s now, but anyway, that 16-year-old girl

  • is sitting under preaching, and the love of God, through Jesus Christ, in a sermon,

  • becomes so vividly real to her and starts to affect her. We're talking about the

  • affections. It starts to penetrate to the heart.

  • She starts to say, "Why am I all that upset about whether this or that stupid

  • boy like me or not, when I've got this kind of love?" When that sort of thing

  • starts happening in her heart, she's being changed on the spot. She's being changed

  • during the sermon. She's being changed because the preaching

  • has reached her heart.

  • So as Alec Motyer said- I started the talk this way. What Alec Motyer is trying to

  • say, it's not enough for you to take a text and say, "Okay. I need to show that

  • this text teaches that Jesus Christ sacrificed for us and loved us with a

  • costly love." That's the text. It's not enough just to

  • say, "I need to expound that accurately. " I need to bring that home to people's

  • hearts in such a way that it changes them in the seats. So their hearts are affected

  • by it, and the other things that are more real to their heart than the love of Jesus

  • become. Jesus' love starts at this place.

  • So that's what I mean by preaching to the heart. How do you do it? Let me suggest,

  • believe it or not - Oh, boy. I'm gonna be fast. You can ask

  • questions. In fact, you're gonna complain afterwards because you need more

  • information about everything I'm about to tell you, but we only have an hour. This

  • is the best we can do.

  • But I would say, in order to preach to the heart, you need to preach culturally,

  • affectionately, imaginatively, practically, wondrously, and

  • Christocentrically. Okay. So there's two ways to go from here. One is to do an hour

  • on each of these, but probably I can't. So the other is to do just

  • a few minutes on each of these.

  • Okay. What do I mean by culturally?

  • Let's just say if you're evangelical parents,

  • and you've got a 14 or 15-year-old boy or girl, and one day, you're talking to them,

  • and suddenly the 15-year-old girls says to you this, says, "You know, I'm not really

  • sure there's anything really wrong with two people having sex if they really love

  • each other. I wouldn't do it, of course, mom or dad, but I just don't think there's

  • anything wrong with two people having sex if they love each other."

  • Now what are you gonna do?

  • You're probably- Your response is gonna be, "That's not what the Bible says, " and

  • go after them, go after the girl, also knowing that when she says, "I wouldn't do

  • it, but I don't think there's anything wrong with it," you know she's gonna do

  • it. If she says that, "I wouldn't do it, but

  • there's nothing wrong with it," she's gonna do it. So how do you do that? How do

  • you go after that? Now, if you say, :I'm gonna show you what the Bible says. "

  • Okay. Absolutely. Totally. Must do that.

  • But I can tell you, almost certainly, that 15-year-old girl will start to experience,

  • as you're talking about what the Bible says... The 15-year-old girl will start to

  • experience MEGO. Do you know what MEGO is? M-E-G-O? My eyes glaze over. No? MEGO is,

  • "My eyes glaze over." You can tell, as you're talking to her, she's tuning out.

  • You know why? Because there are cultural narratives that are deeply imbedded. They

  • have come into her life actually through songs and advertising.

  • Those cultural narratives are the reason why the statement, "If two people love

  • each other, they should be able to have sex. " Why does that statement make sense?

  • It makes sense because of the deeper narratives. I'll give you three.

  • There's the identity narrative. The identity narrative is you've got to be

  • yourself. In traditional cultures, identity is formed like this. You are a

  • good person if you sublimate your individual desires

  • for the good of the family.

  • But in our society, identity is formed exactly the opposite. You're not an

  • authentic person unless you look into your heart and decide what you want to be and

  • what you want to do, and you assert your individual interests over against what

  • anybody else says. That's the only heroic narrative left. That's in virtually every

  • single sitcom. It's every single movie. It's every cartoon. In other words, the

  • only heroic narrative left is you figure out who you want to be, and then you don't

  • let anybody tell you not to be that. Unless you go after that, unless you show

  • that Christianity has a better thing to offer than that, unless you show that

  • that's incoherent and unstable and a sham and doesn't really work, unless you do

  • that regularly in your preaching, then they are gonna think, "Hey, what's wrong

  • with actually two people loving each other and having sex?"

  • Another narrative.that's the identity narrative. The second narrative is the

  • truth narrative. Only I have the right to decide what is right or wrong for me and

  • what is true for me. A lot of, by the way, college students who are strong

  • evangelical college students are still gonna tell me, "Well, I believe in

  • Christianity. I believe in Jesus, but I have no right to tell

  • anybody else what they should believe."

  • Now when you say that, what is that? You want to look at them and say, "You just

  • said something to me that makes no sense at all, and yet you're saying it as if

  • it's a given, as if it's an unassailable, unquestionable truth." No one has the

  • right to tell anybody else how they should live.

  • First of all, you just did that to me, you hypocrite. You just did it to me, which

  • shows the very idea is self-contradictory. It doesn't work at all. You use it

  • selectively. In other words, unless you know how to go after these baseline

  • cultural narratives, these deeper cultural narratives, with the scripture, as well as

  • with common sense, in many cases, unless you know how to go after the cultural

  • narratives regularly, people's hearts aren't gonna be reached.

  • To a great degree, our hearts are shaped by what the culture tells us, and we don't

  • understand that. A thousand years ago, if you're an Anglo-Saxon warrior, and you

  • walk around, and you see, deep in your heart, an impulse, you know what that

  • impulse is? Let's just say 1000 years, ago, there's

  • this Anglo-Saxon warrior. He's walking around, and he notices, in his heart, a

  • really deep impulse. You know what the impulse is? He just likes to kill people.

  • If they get in his way, he just likes to smash them. Okay. He looks at that, and he

  • says, "That's great," because he's living in a shame-and-honor culture.

  • He's living in a warrior culture.

  • But if you're walking around Orlando, if you're a young man and walking around

  • Orlando, and you look in your heart, and you happen to see this desire to kill

  • people, you go to therapy. You go to anger management, or you go to prison.

  • Basically your culture tells you that's a bad feeling. Whereas 1000 years ago, the

  • culture told you that was a good feeling. So we tend to think we're looking at our

  • feelings, and we're just expressing our feelings. No, no, no. We're taking grids

  • that our culture tells us that we have to bring down on our hearts, through which

  • we're evaluating our feelings as good or bad.

  • You have to show people. Let the Bible do that. Otherwise, you're a slave to your

  • culture, and you think you're free. That's how this culture operates. It makes you a

  • slave to its ideals, under the heading that you're free. Do you know how to do

  • that? In your preaching, you have to do that, or you're not gonna reach hearts.

  • They're just gonna go MEGO. My eyes are gonna glaze over. That's culturally.

  • Secondly, affectionately. If you want to preach to the heart, you have to preach

  • from the heart. If you want to preach to the heart, you have to preach from the

  • heart. That's not as easy as you think. What I mean by that is to reach the heart,

  • to preach from the heart, means - I'll call it this. There needs to be a

  • non-deliberate transparency about you. People need to be able to see, as you're

  • speaking, that somehow the very trues that you're talking about have repaired you,

  • have mended you, mean the world to you. Now one of the problems I see is the

  • alternatives to non-deliberate transparency are three. One is flat

  • affect. Some people just speak with flat affect. They're just going through their

  • notes, and that's certainly not gonna reach anybody's heart. We all know that.

  • But there's a lot of other people who are just excitable. You know? They're just

  • excitable. They start off talking like this, and all the way through, they're

  • just like this. They're just passionate about everything, and it's not

  • transparent. It is. It literally is. It's excitability. It's like you're psyching

  • yourself up. You're putting on your game face.

  • People do not sense they're looking into your heart and seeing a person who's a

  • trophy of grace, someone who's been repaired by grace, someone who's been

  • wounded and humbled and no longer has any need to put on a show. That's what people

  • are. That's what moves people.

  • I'm afraid a lot of us are too, frankly, too afraid, too aware of what kind of

  • impression we're making, working too hard at trying to really be good, in fact,

  • working too hard at trying to be passionate. If you're trying to be

  • passionate, almost always, that means that through the whole sermon, you're just

  • like, It's the same level of excitability. You're just

  • like this the whole way through.

  • I remember some years ago. I remember the first time I went to visit a friend of

  • mine. He became an elder of my church. He lived in a house that literally was 10

  • feet from the railroad track, literally. I knew that, but it didn't occur to me.

  • Anyway, we went, and we were sitting in the living room. All of a sudden, the

  • train came by. It really, literally, felt like it was coming through the roof. It

  • was just scary. I remember I went like this. He laughed, and he said, "We've

  • lived here for 20 years, and we don't even hear the train anymore. We don't even hear

  • it." Well, that's what's gonna happen. If you

  • try to be passionate, whenever you speak, you're passionate. From the beginning,

  • from the opening bell to the end, you're passionate. Maybe at the end, you get a

  • little more passionate. It's just gonna be like a train coming through. They're just-

  • If every single time, you're passionate all the way through, basically people have

  • got to see that when you get to certain places, where the text is saying things

  • that have really, really, really changed your life, I don't know. You slow down.

  • You just show it. That's non-deliberate transparency.

  • Well, I've spent too much time on this.

  • If you're gonna preach to the heart, you got to preach from the heart. By the way,

  • there's two things you need if you're gonna preach like that. Number one, you

  • got to know your material. One of the reasons why we aren't able to be

  • transparent is that we're worried about what's coming next. You got to know your

  • material cold, so that you can have emotional transparency. Otherwise, you are

  • excitable, because you're just trying to keep the ball rolling.

  • You're trying to remember what comes next.

  • You need to know your material cold, and you need to have incredibly good prayer

  • life, and you need to actually have the gospel repair you. A lot of you are gonna

  • say, "Well, this is no good. I was hoping for something practical, something I could

  • put into practice this week." You can put this into practice, this lifetime,

  • but not this week.

  • Second, imaginatively. No, third. Are we third? Yes, third, imaginatively. Now,

  • I've already referred to this, but I'll just give you some quick examples.

  • Jonathan Edwards is the master here. Jonathan Edwards believed in the

  • importance of what he would call the image. That's what you and I call

  • illustration. See, a story is an illustration, and many people say, "Use

  • stories in your sermon. That'll help." By the way, stories are good, but a story

  • is only one version of an illustration. Let me give you another example of an

  • illustration. I'll give you four, actually, real quick.

  • When Jonathan Edwards says, in "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God," when he says,

  • "All your righteousness would have no influence to uphold you and keep you out

  • of hell." Let me say that again. All of your righteousness has no influence to

  • uphold you or keep you out of hell.

  • What is he saying? That's a very important doctrinal statement. He is saying,

  • basically, there's no salvation through works. He says all of your righteousness

  • could not uphold you or keep you out of hell, no matter how hard you try. Your

  • best deeds will not keep you out of hell. Right? But it's an abstraction,

  • but it doesn't stop there.

  • This is what he says. "All your righteousness would have no influence to

  • keep you out of hell, anymore than a spider's web could stop a falling rock."

  • That's how he ends the sentence,

  • "Anymore than a spider web can stop a falling rock."

  • Now the point is we all know something about a spider web. If a rock comes down

  • and hits a spider web, it doesn't bounce. You know? Here's a spider web. The rock

  • comes through. It doesn't go- No. It goes, it's as if the spider web is not there. If

  • a rock is coming down through a spider web, it's like the spider web is not even

  • there. The rock doesn't stop at all. What a very interesting illustration.

  • It's a sensory experience. That is, it's something we've actually seen and felt,

  • connected to the abstract doctrine. So what it does is it gets across very

  • vividly, the fact that your good deeds will in no way keep you out of hell. What

  • he's doing is he's bringing two fields of discourse together, or he's connecting an

  • abstract doctrine with something that you experience through your body, through your

  • senses, through your eyes or your fingers. Basically that's what an illustration

  • does. It takes something that you may know is true, but by connecting it to the

  • memory of a sense experience, it makes it feel more real. God himself-

  • I won't give you four examples, but God himself gives us an example when he says,

  • for example, in Genesis 4:7. He comes to Cain. God comes to Cain, and he says-

  • Well, basically in chapter four, God comes to Cain because he sees Cain depressed.

  • His face has fallen, and he sees the murderous thoughts

  • in his heart toward Abel.

  • He comes to him, and he basically is saying to Cain, "Sin is gonna get you into

  • trouble." That's not what God says. Here's what God says. "Sin is crouching at

  • your door. It desires to have you, but you must master it." Interesting?

  • What God is doing is he's likening sin to a crouching tiger, hidden dragon. He's

  • likening sin to an animal. He says, "Sin is crouching at your door. It's desires

  • to have you." It's very interesting.

  • What he's trying to say is sin is a dark reality in our lives. If you sin, it means

  • that you bring something that's going to eat you, into your life. It's gonna

  • distort your emotions. It's gonna darken your eyes. It's gonna create patterns of

  • habit that you can't break.

  • It's remarkable because, of course, what God is doing is he's taking- The idea of a

  • crouching panther or a leopard or a predatory animal. Have you ever seen- We

  • all probably, at certain points in our lives, have seen a predatory animal pounce

  • on a little bird or something like that and destroy it. God is saying sin is like

  • that. You give sin an inch in your life, and

  • that's what- That's God doing it. God's using a sermon illustration.

  • So you better do it.

  • See, unless you do that, the heart is not reached. What's important here is, yeah,

  • stories are important, but word pictures are just as important. To say, "Your good

  • deeds cannot keep you out of hell, any more than a spider web can stop a falling

  • rock," that's not a story, but it is a powerful illustration.

  • If you read Edwards, you'll see that Edwards actually, at least when he was in

  • North Hampton, didn't do much in the way of stories, but his word pictures are

  • astounding. Go read "Heaven is a World of Love, " by Jonathan Edwards.

  • The way he uses the images of light and of fountains and of water, it gives you-

  • Essentially the love of God is not an abstraction. When you're done reading that

  • sermon, he's drawing you back into all kinds of other experiences, sensory

  • experiences you've had, and connecting God and his love and his grace to those

  • experiences. You sense the reality of it. That's preaching to the heart.

  • Fourth, preaching specifically, I mean practically. I'm not gonna say much on

  • this because I really would like to get to questions and answers. This is the one

  • area where most books- I've done a lot of reading of preaching books recently, and

  • I've been very unhappy with preaching books on the subject

  • of preaching to the heart.

  • However, when it comes to application, there are books out there, talking about

  • application. That's important. The main point is application should be very, very

  • specific. You need to try very hard not to get to the end of the sermon and say,

  • "Well, you can think of some practical implications. " No, help the people think

  • about practical implications. Application should, in some ways, be

  • dialogical. You should look to people and say, "Look. Maybe you agree that pride is

  • a problem, that pride is good, bad, and humility is good, but maybe you think you

  • don't got a problem with pride."

  • But if you don't have a problem with pride, let me ask you a question,

  • Christians. Do you have any problem talking to your non-Christian neighbors

  • about Jesus? Oh, you do. Why? What are you afraid of? Maybe that is pride.

  • So what am I doing at that point? You need to not only be specific, but you need to

  • give people questions. You need to dialogue with them. You need to enter into

  • conversation with them. You need to give them some tests.

  • It's extraordinarily important. You almost need to turn some parts of the sermon into

  • counseling, where you say, "Look. I know that this hasn't been easy. But if you

  • understand this..." Get very- Talk directly to them about how, imagine you're

  • in a pastoral setting, and the person is saying, "How do I apply this to my life?"

  • Just do it. Do it right there in the sermon, to everybody.

  • Okay. I said wondrously and Christocentrically. Then we're done. I

  • think I can do this quick. We have 20 minutes for questions. Wondrously just

  • means this. I think I can do this in one minute.

  • J. R. R. Tolken, in his famous essay on fairy stories, says that fairy tales

  • continue to be popular because fairy tales give you stories in which people escape

  • time, escape death, hold communion with non-human beings, find perfect love from

  • which they are never parted, and triumph over evil. Fairy tales.

  • Escape from time, get outside of time, escape from death, hold communion with

  • non-human beings, find perfect love from which you're never parted, and triumph

  • finally over evil. Right?

  • People buy fairy tales and read them, and we're making them into blockbuster movies

  • all the time. Why? Because it's a deep desire of the human heart. Well, you say,

  • "That's not reality." But if Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead, if he

  • really has been raised from the dead, and you believe in him, all those things are

  • gonna come true for you.

  • You will step outside of time. You will escape death. You will communicate with

  • non-human beings, at least angels. Who knows? Maybe there are elves. You will

  • have a love that never parts. You're never parted from it,

  • and you will triumph over evil.

  • Look. Do you preach- Isn't that amazing? Do you preach like that? Is there that

  • note of wonder in your preaching? Do you ever lift that up and let people know? Do

  • you have any idea? If Christianity is true, all this stuff that most of you

  • just, you pay all this money. Wouldn't it be great if all these things were true?

  • No, it's not. Let's go home. Yet, you keep spending the money to go see.

  • Why do you watch the movie? Why do you read the fairy tale? Because it lifts you

  • up. Frankly because deep in your heart, you know that that's how human beings were

  • supposed to live, and it's a memory trace of the Garden of Eden, I guess. But the

  • point is do you preach with that kind of wonder?

  • Here's the last thing. I don't think I need to talk. I've talked to many other

  • places of what it means to preach Christ from every text, but what my wife used to

  • say- What Cathy said, in the first five or 10 years in which I was trying to learn

  • how to preach . . . She used to put it like this. She says, "You know, in the

  • first part of your sermon, in which you're laying out the biblical truth, you're

  • laying out how people should be living and all this sort of thing," she says, "It's

  • really good. It's like a really, really, really, really good Sunday School lesson.

  • But she says, "Until you get to Jesus,

  • it's not a sermon." She says, "Everybody is taking notes. They're learning, and

  • they're saying, 'Oh, that's good theology, and that's good practical, and that's good

  • this" She says, "When you get to Jesus, suddenly everybody puts their pencils

  • down, and they start to- " She said, "Suddenly the Sunday School lesson becomes

  • a sermon. Suddenly, instead of feeling like we're walking,

  • sometimes we're flying."

  • She says, "It's really- Because when you get to Jesus, and when you say, 'This is

  • really about Jesus, ' people start to worship. Before that, they're just

  • thinking. " Another way to put it now would be, "Before that, in a sense, you

  • were working on the head. But when you get to Jesus, it goes to the heart. "

  • Okay. We got 19 minutes to answer some questions if you got them. So I just took

  • 40 out of the 60 minutes. So we got a couple of people who are gonna be living

  • mic stands. Right? Don't we have a couple of- Yeah, okay. So we've got a couple of

  • volunteers who are going to stand where they are, and you got to come to them. If

  • you've got a question, go to them. Ask the question. I promise to give you a

  • response. Okay. - Could you speak a little bit about the

  • difference between good and great preaching?

  • - The difference between good and great preaching?

  • = Good and great preaching, RTS lecture I saw online.

  • - Oh, you mean you'd like me to say what you heard me say before.

  • - Well, a little bit. Yeah. Now that I'm in person.

  • - Yeah, no, no. I hope this is what you remember. I don't know. Anyway. This is an

  • oversimplification, honestly. It's an oversimplification. But to me, the

  • difference between a bad sermon and a good sermon has, largely speaking, got to do

  • with you, the speaker. Have you done your job? Have you studied

  • the passage? A minute ago, I tried to say have you mastered the material, so you

  • know the material well enough that you- If I don't know my material, when I get up

  • there, I won't have the freedom, a kind of spiritual and emotional freedom to think

  • about the wonderful truth. I'll be thinking about what's coming next, and I

  • don't want to be having to say, "Okay. That was point two. Now what's point three

  • again? What's point 3A? What's point 3B?"

  • I want the emotional freedom. So I need to know my material. I need to have done all

  • the study. I need all that stuff. So the difference between a bad sermon and a good

  • sermon, generally speaking, has got to do with you.

  • The difference between a good sermon and a great sermon is almost completely the Holy

  • Spirit. That's probably what you heard me say. I have often put together- I've often

  • preached sermons that were just okay, but seemed to have changed a heck of a lot of

  • lives because God just decided to use it that way.

  • I've preached other sermons that were actually fairly good, really tight. I

  • liked it, and it didn't have the same impact. See. So you can get in the realm

  • of good/okay sermon. That's up to you. This is an oversimplification. Obviously

  • God helps you in this study too, but I'm trying to say. To get yourself up to the

  • good or okay sermon, it's got mainly to do with you.

  • But that which gets you into the realm where the revival breaks out, that's just

  • the Holy Spirit. One last thing. There was an older man who heard both Daniel Roland

  • and George Woodfield preach. Daniel Roland was a Welsh preacher. George Woodfield, of

  • course, is the famous Anglican preacher. They both preached a lot in the 1730s,

  • '40s, '50s. Many years later, there was a guy who was interviewed, who had heard

  • both of them preach. He was asked, "Which preacher was the

  • better preacher?" He said that both of them were equally- Their sermons were

  • equally powerful, but with Daniel Roland, you always got a good sermon, whereas with

  • George Woodfield, you didn't always get a good sermon, but sermons were always

  • equally as powerful.

  • That makes no sense unless you understand what I just said. Woodfield always, for

  • whatever reason, whether Woodfield's sermons were well-written or not, God

  • always seemed to work through them. So anyway, the difference between bad and

  • good is mainly you. The difference between good and great is mainly that God's

  • working and deciding to work sovereignly at the moment. Okay. Let's go back and

  • forth until time is up.

  • - Thank you for your laboring love for us. My question has a bit of overlap with the

  • previous one. What are some things you can give to help hold the tension, on the one

  • hand, in preaching, that we are standing like Ezekiel in a valley of dry bones,

  • unable to do anything, and on the other hand, being like Paul, becoming all things

  • to all man, pleading with men to be saved, that tension of the impossible, but the

  • responsibility to labor for what we can't do?

  • - That's actually pretty easy, believe it or not. You're absolutely right. Those are

  • the two things. The one is, on the one hand, you're supposed to be becoming all

  • things to all people that, by all means, I might win some, which means Paul clearly

  • is trying to be as ingenious as possible in the way which he preaches.

  • You can see it in the book of Acts. Every single time he preaches, he preaches to

  • Jews who believe the Bible, uneducated pagans, educated pagans. He changes it up.

  • Yet, it's all up to God because they're all dry bones. Right?

  • The answer is how you respond to what happens after you preach. In other words,

  • you work like crazy to preach the best sermon possible. But then when you find

  • you're not getting much in the way of response, that should not bother you the

  • way it does, because we . . . To really say, "I'm trusting God's sovereignty,"

  • means that when you don't see a lot of fruit, it doesn't eat you alive. When you

  • don't see people showing up and your church growing,

  • it just doesn't totally eat you alive.

  • Now you got to be careful here, because on the one hand, you have to be careful that

  • you are- you should be open to the possibility that maybe you haven't

  • preached as well as you could, and you don't want to say, "Well, nobody is coming

  • because God is just not working." So you have to be careful about that.

  • By and large, the way that you show that you believe in God's sovereignty is you

  • work like crazy to preach the best sermon possible, and then you really do leave it

  • up to God, and you don't judge yourself. You don't judge. You don't judge yourself,

  • frankly, by the results. We just get eaten up by whether people tell us we're good,

  • whether it's a good buzz, whether we see conversions, whether we see the church

  • growing, whether we see the attendance growing. It just shouldn't eat you up if

  • you believe in the sovereignty of God. Let's go back and forth, over here.

  • - Any thoughts on the length of a sermon?

  • - Any thoughts on the length of the sermon? I think I'm all for adapting to

  • your audience. That does mean, I think, for example I found- Well, I'll give you

  • one example. Okay.

  • By and large, I would say that if you have an audience that are pretty mature

  • Christians, and they expect robust teaching, you can go longer if you're good

  • enough. Even with a mature audience, you have to be pretty good to be able to get

  • past about 35 minutes and not be tedious, I would say, today.

  • But by and large, it depends on the audience. Some people- The shorter, It's

  • better for people with shorter attention spans. I do see people's attention spans

  • getting shorter. Social media and the Internet is part of that.

  • So no, I'm not real doctrinaire about it. Generally if I'm actually evaluating

  • preachers, Today, most places in America, in America, and generally I'm thinking

  • also about multiethnic or Anglo churches, in America, multiethnic or Anglo churches.

  • See, with multiethnic churches, you got to split the difference a bit. People have

  • very different ideas about what is a long sermon. Generally you have to- The people

  • who will think it's going on too long have to be not tested or taxed. So generally

  • speaking, I say 30 minutes. I'm not doctrinaire about that, but an awful lot

  • of people think that they're better preachers than they are.

  • I would say that when I was a younger man, I needed to preach 20 to 25 minutes

  • because I wasn't good enough to keep people's attention any longer. As I've

  • gotten older, and I've gotten better, I can stretch that a little bit, not a lot,

  • but I can stretch that a bit. Here.

  • - Yeah, what are some ways you can practically grow in preaching

  • imaginatively?

  • - It does help to read fiction, and that's a shame because I'm not a real good

  • fiction reader. My wife is better. We are very gender-stereotyped. I read

  • nonfiction. She reads fiction. I said, "Come on. " You know? But anyway.

  • Neil Plantinga, Cornelius Planting, has a book on reading for preachers. I would

  • say- Remember, don't forget what I said about culturally. I would say that,

  • generally, most expository preachers read too much in just Bible and theology. They

  • don't read philosophy. They don't read cultural analysis. They

  • don't read history. They don't read biography. They don't read novels. They

  • don't read poetry. To preach imaginatively, you need to read very,

  • very, very widely.

  • If somebody says to me, "You read an awful lot. Why do you read?" I think I did this

  • also at the RTS at Jackson lectures this year. Somebody says, "You read so much.

  • Why do you read so much?" My answer is I'm desperate. I'm desperate to reach people.

  • If you're desperate to reach people, you will read very, very widely and not just

  • Bible and theology. You just got to read across the spectrum. We only got 10

  • minutes left. Sorry these are kind of short answers, but it's better than three

  • or four really long ones. Go ahead.

  • - I tend to be a pretty passionate person. When I do preach or get to teach, I can

  • preach affectionately, if you will. But where do you draw the line between

  • preaching affectionately and then just shameless emotionalism? Because that's

  • also my fear, is that people will be moved, not by what is being said, not by

  • certain truths, but just by my demeanor.

  • - Well, you know what? That's actually good. I guess what I most want to see is

  • variation. I guess I didn't quite say that. Did I? So thank you for giving me

  • the opportunity to say it this way.

  • If I see a person who is preaching and Cathy, my wife, does say to me, "I know

  • when you're trying to be the Holy Spirit." She says, "I feel like you're trying-

  • You see the people out there. They seem to be kind of impassive. So you start to do

  • what you can. You get louder. You can start to show more emotion."

  • She feels like, at some points, you're forcing it. You're pushing. You're trying

  • to get a rise out of them. That's always been very convicting to me. So by and

  • large, I guess, I want to make sure that the emotion I show is not planned,

  • certainly not planned. It's not real, real, real regular. If it happens a lot or

  • all the time or the same point at every single sermon . . .

  • In other words, if the pastor breaks down into tears every week at 18 minutes after

  • he starts, I actually know there's people like that, that are actually pretty

  • genuine. They still probably shouldn't do it, because it doesn't feel genuine.

  • So I guess I would say if I see variation, if I see it doesn't happen all the time,

  • if I see it happens- Also, if it seems to fit the shape of the truth itself.

  • Sometimes some texts are not particularly- Some texts are what my wife would call

  • meat-and-potatoes texts. They're meat and potatoes. They're good, solid stuff.

  • There's nothing particularly interesting or unusual, just good to remind us.

  • At that point, you probably shouldn't have some emotional experience. It's not

  • appropriate. There are other texts that are remarkable, that are insightful. So as

  • long as I think that the expression of emotion is not constant, it's varied, it

  • seems to fit the truth you've got out there, that you're talking about,

  • that's all right.

  • What worries me the most are people that are constantly always emotional, all the

  • time. I do know in my- I think, in some ways, it may be sincere, but it is a

  • way of actually trying to manipulate people. My own wife has called me on it

  • over the years, at various times. Okay. Over here.

  • - You mentioned preaching dialogically, in terms of the application. How do you

  • choose what to dialogue with in such a diverse congregation, like you have?

  • - Well, that's a good question. Of course, the text itself sometimes is giving you-

  • Sometimes the text- This is another subject. There's too much stuff in the

  • text to ever bring out. I know that it's traditional to say, and I would say this

  • too, that an expository sermon is one in which the point of the text is the point

  • of the sermon. You've heard that.

  • That's a way of trying to make sure you major in the majors. That is, you find the

  • main point of the text. You don't read into the- You don't use the text as a way

  • of talking about whatever you feel like talking about. Make sure you understand

  • the author of the text, what the biblical author's main point is,

  • and you preach that.

  • Having said that, the reality is that it's not always that easy to just find one

  • point in a text. What's the point of Jacob wrestling with the Angel of the Lord in

  • Genesis 32? What's the point of that text? The point? There's a number of points, a

  • number of implications.

  • Or what's the point of the text where they throw the man, the dead man, into the

  • grave? They throw him into the tomb, and he touches the bones of Elijah

  • and he comes to life and leaves. Remember that? What's the point of that text,

  • everybody? I don't know.

  • But I guess when you- Narratives are very- It's very hard to identify one single

  • point that the narrative is about. Usually there's a number of implications. So what

  • you can do is you can keep a record. If you've got diverse groups of people in

  • your church, if you've got five or six main groups, different racial groups,

  • different age groups, that sort of thing, you can keep a record. Sometimes even

  • though there's four or five things you could bring out of a text, you can just

  • choose the one for the group that you haven't really spoken to recently.

  • Just keep a record.

  • So in other words, there's more dimensions in almost every Bible passage than you can

  • ever bring out in a single sermon. So keep a record and say, "Well, I could hit those

  • people again with this text, but I'm not going to. I haven't talked to this group

  • over here." That's how. Just keep a record. Be a good pastor. Over here.

  • - Aside from yourself, who else would you say characterizes

  • these characteristics in preaching?

  • - Oh, my goodness. Any good preacher preaches to the heart. I'm glad you think

  • I'm a good preacher. I appreciate that.

  • - Well, I meant more like who uses those characteristics

  • and preaching Christ at the end.

  • - Who uses which?

  • - So who goes through, speaks culturally, affectionately,

  • passionately, and embodies all of them.

  • - Look. I would say everybody. I do think that the culturally thing is a place where

  • we're not very good. I would say almost all the preachers you hear at a gospel

  • coalition conference know how to preach to the heart. Most of them do. Some of them

  • aren't necessarily ss you know, sometimes they're not preachers. Sometimes they're

  • professors or something like that, and they're not ordinarily preachers. So when

  • they give you their exposition, it's a little more like a

  • lecture than a sermon, which is fine.

  • But by and large, I would say that preaching to the heart is not- Preaching

  • to the heart is instinctive. The reason I'm trying to break it out is I feel like

  • people who are trying to learn how to preach don't know how to do it. The

  • instinctively gifted preachers just do it. My job was to try to break it out a little

  • bit for you, so you had some way of testing yourself and also avoiding the

  • danger of putting all your time on the exit Jesus and not thinking about how to

  • preach to the heart. Having said that, of all the things I

  • mentioned, the culturally, learning how to preach to the culture is something that

  • we're mainly behind on, and I don't see a lot of good models out there. I am trying

  • to- The book on preaching, that's coming out, at least has a chapter on this, which

  • I do think is very unusual for preaching books.

  • I'm trying to write another book, in which I show people how to do that. So in that

  • sense, I might be- I would say I'm trying to be a little more of a pioneer. In all

  • the other areas, lots of people are quite good. All good preachers know how to

  • preach to the heart. I got time for one or two more, at the most.

  • - So I thought the panel discussion was actually the most enriching session, and

  • part of that was just because there's a community. Even you asking for people to

  • ask questions is another reflection of the dialogue. In our church, we've actually

  • tried- When I preach, I try to actually ask the questions of the people while the

  • preaching is going on, to get some feedback, to hear what people are

  • thinking, to try to even maybe nuance while I'm preaching. But also, I realized

  • there's grace in the congregation. Maybe even having a faith story that lines up

  • with the point of the text or maybe a manifestation. So I kind of want to hear

  • maybe your thoughts on the different variations of doing that.

  • Then also, since so many preachers can be bad, or they're maybe not aware of how

  • they could get better, what do you do in your church, besides maybe the

  • plurality of elders

  • to open up your preaching to feedback from the congregation or other

  • people? - Okay. That's great. By the way, you're

  • gonna have to sit down because I've got like 30 seconds. I have to answer this,

  • and then I'm gonna dismiss everybody. Sorry, those of you in line.

  • Good question.

  • Let me tell you something I did originally. For 10 years, at the end of

  • every service, I said, the minute the postlude is over, the minute that the

  • music is over, just come down front. I'm standing down there, and you can ask me

  • questions about the sermon or anything that happened in the worship service.

  • So my wife still thinks, Cathy still thinks that was crucial to the success of

  • Redeemer because, probably, anywhere from 50 to 200 people stayed every single week

  • and pushed questions to me about the sermon. I was able to not only give people

  • a lot more information than I could just in the sermon.

  • You're absolutely right in saying that, very often, the questions help- The

  • questions are wonderful because they give me an opportunity to bring out things that

  • I didn't have a chance to bring out in the sermon or even think

  • about as I was preaching.

  • It also gave me an opportunity to model for people. How do you pastorally deal

  • with people who are hurting or who are angry at you? That was really, really,

  • really good. We do something right now called "Questioning Christianity, " where

  • non-Christians are invited with their Christian friends. I speak for 30 minutes.

  • They ask questions for 30 minutes. Then we have refreshments, and people can come up

  • and talk to me about it.

  • So I've always felt that the idea of having questions and answers very, very

  • closely connected to the preaching is really helpful. However, by the way, in a

  • small setting, I actually think that the dialogical approach is a perfectly fine

  • way to do a sermon. If you're a house church, it's really a great idea.

  • I think if it gets big, it's difficult, even here. You did a really good job, but

  • there's over 1000 of you or something like that. So I couldn't do it. There is also

  • something about a sermon, in which there is no ability to answer back. In other

  • words, the sermon is also authoritative. I don't mind the dialogue stuff. I don't

  • mind the question-and-answer stuff, but it's also true that the sermon is from the

  • word of God. If it's done well, it's very authoritative. You also want to guard that

  • as well. That's why I always liked the idea of not

  • doing the Q&A inside the service, but to do it immediately afterwards. I did that

  • for a good 10 years, until I was forced to stop doing it because we started having

  • services at another site, and I had to leave after finishing the sermon at one

  • site to go preach at another site. I always missed that loss.

  • The Q&A after the sermons was extremely important. Okay. I'm two minutes over. So

  • I'm gonna just say time's up. You need to go to your next workshop. Bye.

- Our Father, we thank you that you've gathered so many people here to learn how

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