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  • PROFESSOR 1: Hello and welcome to week four.

  • This week we continue with works that

  • are written in the dialogic presentation.

  • And hope we get into something really fun here.

  • Gender and education in the Renaissance.

  • And How Should Men and Women Be Educated?

  • And we think this is a really fun topic,

  • and have been talking about it a lot

  • before we made this recording.

  • So we hope to bring you into the fun of the discussion, as well.

  • PROFESSOR 2: And this is a very hot topic

  • during the Renaissance.

  • I mean the roles of men and women are always a hot topic.

  • But especially in this time period when

  • education was taking on new importance.

  • Right?

  • You have the rediscovery of all these classical texts.

  • You have lots of people that are trying

  • to renew the glories of ancient Greece and Rome.

  • And one of the most important ways to do that

  • is through education.

  • You have this whole group of people called the Humanists who

  • want to revive classical education.

  • And so in doing that, they have some tough questions

  • to try to deal with about who should receive that education,

  • and how that education should fit

  • into the social structure that's already set up.

  • So one of the texts that we are looking at--

  • and we're looking at only a very small piece of each

  • of these three texts-- please keep

  • in mind that all three of these books-- Castiglione's

  • The Book of the Courtier, Bruto's Education of a Young

  • Noblewoman, and Christine de Pisan's City of Ladies

  • are all much larger, longer books.

  • We are just taking a tiny, tiny slice of them.

  • So please don't feel like you understand them all from this.

  • Because there's so much more.

  • And if you're interested, there's so much more.

  • So Castiglione's book, The Courtier--

  • as your head notes to the reading

  • tells you-- was published in the early 1520s,

  • well, in the 1520s.

  • 1528.

  • And it was supposedly the record of a conversation

  • that he had been part of-- or had witnessed at a court,

  • at a royal court back in Urbino, back when he was a diplomat.

  • And so we don't really know how much of this is made up,

  • or how much of this is actually true to what really happened.

  • But I don't think it really matters, actually,

  • because he captures these questions about courtly life

  • in the Renaissance, and specifically

  • about how to make it.

  • So in some ways this is like a political book

  • for aspiring government workers, aspiring presidents.

  • How do you become a perfect politician.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Aspiring philosopher kings, as it were.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Yes.

  • And so Castiglione's book of the courtier

  • was very, very famous during its own time.

  • Lots and lots of people read it as a sort of success manual.

  • How do I make it?

  • How do I become successful during this time?

  • So that the setup of this book is

  • that a bunch of courtly ladies and gentlemen

  • are hanging out together at a court in Urbino.

  • And they're trying to figure how to pass the time one evening.

  • And so they come up with all these ideas

  • of what we might do, what kind of party games we might play.

  • And they say, you know, maybe we should

  • have everybody tell jokes.

  • And they said, no, that doesn't sound so fun.

  • Maybe we should talk about this.

  • Aw no, that doesn't sound so fun.

  • And somebody says, hey, I have an idea.

  • Why don't we talk about what we think the perfect courtier--

  • the perfect courtly gentleman-- would be like.

  • And everybody says, that sounds like a great idea.

  • We'll all take turns.

  • And so it's very, very much not just a dialogue,

  • because there's more than two people talking.

  • It's very much a conversation in which tons of different ideas

  • are floated out.

  • But several of them-- the ones we've

  • given to you in this handout-- seem to recur over and over.

  • Or at least the conversation seems

  • to agree on some of these things-- specifically the ones

  • that we've given you.

  • PROFESSOR 1: And I guess it's my turn to talk now.

  • I think it's important to remember

  • is that we are talking about people

  • living a political life here.

  • So a very particular class of society.

  • They're not talking about education in general for men

  • and for women, but education for the noble elite of society,

  • whose job it is to lead the country,

  • or to lead the kingdom.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Yeah, and it's interesting

  • that we would even have to say that,

  • because for most of human history, that's

  • the only people that were educated.

  • Those were the only people who were educated anyway.

  • So I mean, they don't feel the need

  • to say we're not talking about the lower classes here,

  • because lower classes just weren't educated.

  • But even their discussion is not so much about formal education

  • as it is about what-- it's about learning objectives.

  • About the skills and knowledge that someone

  • would need to develop in order to have

  • a successful career-- specifically

  • a successful career in the courts

  • and government of Renaissance Italy.

  • And so we have in the handout that you have, in the reading,

  • there are lots of different skills.

  • We could make a whole list of the different skill

  • that he thinks that a courtier should have,

  • all the way from the ability to use weapons,

  • to painting, to writing, speaking, to dancing, to music.

  • There's quite a list of general education requirements.

  • But the part that I would like to focus on, or draw

  • your attention to, is at the bottom

  • of page one, which talks about the method of education,

  • the way that this courtier gains his education.

  • It says, "Therefore, he who wishes

  • to be a good pupil, besides performing his tasks well,

  • must put forth every effort to resemble his master,

  • and if it were possible, to transform himself

  • into his master.

  • And when he feels that he's made some progress,

  • it will be very profitable to serve

  • different men of the same calling,

  • and governing himself with that good judgment which must ever

  • be disguised, to go about selecting now

  • this thing from one, and that thing from another."

  • And so this process of education is not

  • formal schooling in the sense of sitting down in a classroom

  • and having someone teach you these things,

  • so much it is finding people who know how to do what you want

  • to do, and watching them, imitating them, looking

  • at a bunch of different people, and learning

  • from a variety of teachers to cobble together the skills that

  • are going to be most necessary for your situation.

  • PROFESSOR 1: And these are social skills, too,

  • which I think are learned by imitation.

  • Think about high school.

  • When you were a freshman-- or any social situation.

  • But what came to my mind is we were just talking about that,

  • is a social hierarchy where you come in.

  • Let's say you're a freshman in high school,

  • and you're kind of geeky and don't really know what to do.

  • And you see the big, cool seniors and what they're doing.

  • I think this is something very important that humans do well.

  • We watch.

  • We see what somebody's doing.

  • We try on these personas.

  • How many different ways did you try to act, or dress,

  • or be when you were an adolescent?

  • We're glad we don't have pictures with us now.

  • But those are the things that people

  • do to try to rise in the social hierarchy.

  • And that's exactly what's being taught here--

  • rising in the social hierarchy within this particular

  • political class.

  • PROFESSOR 2: And it reminds me of [INAUDIBLE] second theory

  • about those intangible skills that you learned during college

  • that you might not learn anywhere else.

  • And I think about as a teacher how often

  • the things that my students learn from me

  • go way beyond content knowledge to how to manage their time,

  • how to write an email to a teacher that isn't insulting,

  • how to ask for help when necessary,

  • how to work with a team.

  • All these kinds of things that go

  • beyond learning calculus or learning American history.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Right.

  • We don't see the same sorts of discussion

  • and, I want to say justification,

  • for the subject matter here in the Renaissance

  • that we saw Socrates spelling out in the Glaucon

  • in The Republic.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Right.

  • PROFESSOR 1: There's certainly some similarities.

  • And I think it's fascinating to look at--

  • to do a little comparing and contrasting between what Plato

  • was presenting his ruling class in an ideal world

  • would be taught, and what Castiglione here is presenting

  • the ideal ruling class be taught.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Yeah.

  • Yeah, because there's a lot in common.

  • And Castiglione and his cronies here had certainly read Plato.

  • There was a big resurgence of Plato during this time.

  • But it is interesting that there isn't that same sort

  • of practical application of all these things.

  • I mean, you do have to learn how to use weapons

  • because you might duel.

  • I guess that's kind of practical.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Yes.

  • You need to know how to defend yourself

  • with both a rapier, a dagger, and a pistol.

  • PROFESSOR 2: One other thing that I want to point out

  • is at the top of page two.

  • One of the most famous parts of this particular discussion

  • is Castiglione's emphasis on doing things naturally, doing

  • things with a sort of-- he called it nonchalance.

  • And the Italian word that he uses is a new word.

  • It's called sprezzatura.

  • I love that word.

  • Sprezzatura.

  • And It means doing things as if they were easy,

  • or making them look easy.

  • And I think about how we value that in our own society

  • still, then when we watch Olympic athletes,

  • or when we watch ballet dancers, or singers,

  • that we want to think that it happens very naturally, that we

  • don't want to see the evidence of all the hard work.

  • When someone makes a mistake-- [GASP]

  • Oh, that's not supposed to happen.

  • It's supposed to be effortless somehow.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Right.

  • Effortless.

  • Natural.

  • Although we still value the hard work that's put in,

  • we don't want it to look that way.

  • Think, for example, how upset people were when like,

  • you learn somebody's been lip syncing.

  • If we want to go back to my childhood, when I learned

  • that Donnie and Marie lip sync--

  • PROFESSOR 2: And then Milli Vanilli.

  • PROFESSOR 1: OK.

  • Milli Vanilli.

  • And more recently the orchestra that

  • played during the presidential inauguration, Obama's

  • presidential inauguration.

  • It was so cold, their instruments

  • literally would not stay in tune.

  • And anyone who knows the fine instruments knows that.

  • But the people were just outraged

  • that they were playing along and faking it to a recording.

  • Because we want things to be natural.

  • Theses are talented musicians.

  • They should be able to play without-- regardless

  • of the weather.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Right.

  • And I think about even in school now-- I have a fourth grade

  • son-- and it's not enough that he know the times tables,

  • he has to be able to do them very quickly.

  • And so, I mean, surely that has practical application.

  • But you know, the ACT test, and SAT test,

  • it's not just that you can get the answer,

  • you have to be able to do it quickly.

  • This has to be something natural and innate to you.

  • It can't take too much work on your part,

  • or it doesn't have the same kind of value for our society.

  • Which I think is very interesting.

  • PROFESSOR 1: And we could talk about this for a lot longer,

  • but we better move on.

  • PROFESSOR 2: So hopefully, you'll

  • get a chance to read this very carefully to look at the things

  • that he requires of his courtier-

  • or that the conversationalist-- I guess not Castiglione

  • necessarily, asks for them to do.

  • One of the things that Steph and I were talking about before we

  • started this video was the fact that he isn't learning law,

  • he's not learning medicine, he's not learning accounting,

  • he's not learning any of the trades,

  • I guess, that have become prestigious in our own time,

  • when you talk about someone's education.

  • He doesn't seem to be training for any kind of career

  • at all, although the men in these conversations

  • did go on to become really important people

  • in Italian politics, Italian church leadership.

  • And so this is a broad-based liberal education in many ways.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Or the leaders who aren't

  • going to make a living-- their living

  • is taken care of for them.

  • So they don't have to worry about that.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Their living is taken care of for them

  • as long as they continue to please the right people.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Oh, that's right.

  • As long as they are in favor.

  • That's right.

  • So did you say this already, that we're

  • talking about the second tier?

  • PROFESSOR 2: I didn't say that.

  • PROFESSOR 1: We're talking about the people who have to please--

  • and this is mentioned-- you must please your Master,

  • you must please your Mistress.

  • And that's not in terms of one as a servant,

  • but they are courtiers who are loyal to the ruler.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Yeah.

  • They're trying to move into those positions of power.

  • And most of these guys eventually do.

  • And women, eventually do.

  • But right now they are in a place

  • where they have to impress the right people.

  • They have to balance their desire

  • to be reformers, of course, at the same time

  • that they have to kind of kowtow to the people in charge.

  • And so they're walking a very fine line,

  • just as most people entering a new career are.

  • When you come in, and you say, I've got a college education.

  • And your company is doing everything wrong.

  • And I'm gonna fix it.

  • You're not gonna last very long, probably.

  • So the soft skills that are so important.

  • So I guess although the specific job training is missing,

  • that the focus on effective communication,

  • things that we talked about in class, are there.

  • PROFESSOR 1: For your career as a politician.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Yeah.

  • All right.

  • And so then in the book, in Castiglione's Book

  • of the Courtier, it's actually separated

  • into four separate books.

  • The first two books talk about the courtly gentleman.

  • And the third book talks about the courtly lady.

  • And you have some passages about that here.

  • PROFESSOR 1: And so one of my favorites--

  • because I just love to take varying views on what

  • the gender roles are-- as I read through this on page four,

  • after we've gone through how women in many ways

  • should have a similar education to men,

  • but they need to be dainty.

  • They need to be very unlike a man physically.

  • They need to always be sweet and soft,

  • and must, above all, be beautiful,

  • because if you're not beautiful, you've

  • pretty much lost all your credibility.

  • Is this paragraph on page four that

  • starts with the brackets, the court lady saying

  • that she must have not only the good sense to discern

  • the quality of him with whom she is speaking, but knowledge

  • of many things in order to entertain him graciously.

  • And in her talks she should come to know

  • how to choose those things that are adapted

  • to the quality of him with whom she is speaking,

  • and should be cautious, lest occasionally,

  • without intending it, she utter words that may offend him.

  • And it goes on.

  • And so my first reaction as someone

  • who teaches freshman writing, is, well

  • she has to know her audience.

  • She's supposed to know how to speak to this man.

  • But then she must please him.

  • And I'm like, oh, I put up with having

  • to listen to enough bores in my life, that at this point

  • I'm thinking, oh really?

  • But then as we were talking here over lunch,

  • we realized that we're talking about someone

  • who must play the role of a diplomat.

  • She is a hostess.

  • She is in court where there are probably

  • people with a lot of competing interests.

  • There are men who may break into a duel

  • with their various weapons with which they're skilled to use.

  • But she has to find a way to maintain the peace,

  • maintain the conversation, maintain

  • the facade of the social gathering, whatever's

  • going on at that time.

  • And so this is a really important skill.

  • And we made a joke about, well, how many times

  • does Hillary Clinton have to do this as the Secretary of State?

  • Does she have to put up with someone that she doesn't really

  • want to talk nicely to, but she does.

  • And you I think, see this in diplomatic circles

  • as an important skill for maintaining the peace.

  • PROFESSOR 2: And in fact, during the Renaissance,

  • often educated women were used in this diplomatic role.

  • For instance, at one point the King of France

  • came to Venice to visit.

  • And they found one of the educated ladies of the town,

  • and brought her to talk with him as proof

  • of their civilization in Venice, as proof

  • that they were worthy of being allies.

  • And I think it's especially interesting

  • that they would choose a woman for a role like that,

  • because of these exact skills that Castiglione's

  • talking about here.

  • Knowing how to talk to the person in the right terms.

  • I mean, these are networking skills.

  • And this is still essential.

  • And it makes me think where's the class where

  • we learn this in school?

  • I'm not sure.

  • Do we learn that in Communications?

  • PROFESSOR 1: Perhaps.

  • It isn't oral communication still, though.

  • So perhaps UF100 is the place for it now.

  • PROFESSOR 2: As least we can start talking about it.

  • And I think it's Interesting.

  • I think the first time I read Castiglione's book,

  • I got my myself all offended, because he

  • said that a women should be very unlike a man in all

  • these things.

  • But as I read through it, I think

  • that he's very shrewd in talking about the ways

  • that a women, especially in this time period,

  • could leverage her position and her abilities

  • to also be in a position of power, a position

  • to gain power.

  • And at the end of that paragraph that Steph was reading,

  • it says, "And perhaps should be worthy to be placed side

  • by side with this great courtier as well in qualities

  • of the mind as in those of the body."

  • And that's a very progressive thought,

  • that he's not saying that it's just her beauty that

  • is valuable, or even just her conversational skills.

  • But this is a mental-- this is mental training

  • to be able to judge audience, to be able to speak correctly

  • based on the audience.

  • I mean, this kind of good judgment that he talks about

  • with the courtier is also central to the lady.

  • And also something that I hope that a college education helps

  • to foster is that critical thinking, that judgment.

  • So we talked a little bit about how

  • she's both different and similar.

  • He really emphasizes that a women should act womanly.

  • And a man should act manly, whatever that means.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Women can't play drums, fifes, or trumpets.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Right.

  • And they shouldn't dance with wild, jerky movements,

  • apparently.

  • But the gracefulness that he requires of her

  • is similar to the gracefulness that he

  • requires of the courtier.

  • So it's not so different in that way.

  • Now in contrast to this progressive view,

  • we have this passage from Giovanni Michele Bruto's

  • Education of a Young Noblewoman.

  • And this is not a dialogue.

  • This is more of a self-help book,

  • guess for parents of young noblewomen,

  • to try to decide what kind of education they should have.

  • Should they educated like their brothers?

  • Should the same tutors that come in and teach their brothers

  • Latin, and Greek, and poetry teach the young women as well?

  • Or is that kind of education-- well

  • he claims, of course, that it's inappropriate.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Wasted on them.

  • Well, it might make you virtueless.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Yes.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Is that a word?

  • PROFESSOR 2: It is now.

  • I think it's interesting that in this passage-- and this

  • is the most often quoted passage from his much, much, much

  • longer book.

  • But in this passage he says that it is not

  • meet-- so not appropriate-- nor convenient.

  • And I interpret that to mean helpful, that it really

  • doesn't do women any good, according to Bruto,

  • to have this kind of humanist, liberal arts education

  • because, first of all, only reasons he could think

  • of for it would be one-- to make money.

  • Profit.

  • And women aren't supposed to be making

  • money in this time period.

  • At least not women of the noble classes.

  • And then second-- for recreation.

  • And he worried that the kind of recreation

  • that this kind of education would give the woman

  • would-- like you said-- would corrupt her.

  • PROFESSOR 1: They're afraid that--

  • I'm trying to find the line here where basically he says that

  • she would--

  • PROFESSOR 2: The subtle and shameless lovers?

  • PROFESSOR 1: Yes.

  • Subtle and shameless lovers.

  • Cunning and skillful writers.

  • And something-- we've decided that these people are all

  • poets.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Well it's interesting

  • that he connects poetry and loose women.

  • And he was not the only one during this time to do that.

  • That when a woman was sharing her education

  • with other people, it was like sharing her body

  • with other people.

  • And that was considered to be a bad thing.

  • Just like we consider that, in general,

  • in our society to be a bad thing.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Not the sharing of your poetry.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Yeah.

  • Exactly.

  • But it's interesting that he sees

  • those things going together.

  • And this was not just Bruto.

  • He is not an isolated case of people

  • who were concerned that if a woman received

  • the same education as a man, not only would she

  • become dissatisfied with her life, with her lot in life,

  • with her assigned role of being the mistress of-- what's

  • he talk about?

  • PROFESSOR 1: A household?

  • PROFESSOR 2: Of a household.

  • Yeah.

  • The government of her household and family.

  • She would be dissatisfied with that,

  • but also that she would lose her morals.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Yes.

  • She would become morally corrupt.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Right.

  • PROFESSOR 1: That great hurt and damage would be done to them.

  • And it's more convenient to be using

  • the distaff, and the spindle, and the needle,

  • and the thimble, if you want a good and honest reputation.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Right.

  • And it's interesting that he even qualifies this last part,

  • that writing versus is not a good thing if it's

  • more about beautiful speech then about virtue.

  • And hopefully by now in the semester virtue

  • is a very loaded word for you.

  • But you could read this in the platonic sense too.

  • Right?

  • That he's afraid she'll get so caught up

  • in the fun of writing and writing beautiful things that

  • is won't be about being good anymore.

  • And I don't know what he would have

  • said about men's education, because we don't have

  • the book that he wrote about that.

  • But I don't know if there was a similar emphasis on good,

  • on being good.

  • But there was certainly-- well I guess back to Castiglione,

  • he said it's not just about speaking well.

  • It's about saying things that are worthy of being said.

  • And so there's the emphasis on-- but the word virtue doesn't

  • really come up there.

  • OK.

  • And then our last contrast here is

  • the writing of Christine de Pisan.

  • And Christine de Pisan is a century before these other two

  • writers.

  • So we're doing this a little bit out of chronological order.

  • Technically, she's a late medieval--

  • in the late Middle Ages.

  • She's not considered to be Renaissance writer.

  • Her book takes place a century before Castiglione's book.

  • And again, it's a dialogue with her talking with reason.

  • PROFESSOR 1: And she's talking not with real people,

  • as in Castiglione, but she brought

  • in the Lady Reason, Lady Rectitude, and Lady Justice.

  • So these are goddesses?

  • Do I want to call them that?

  • PROFESSOR 2: You could call them that.

  • That's what our headnote calls them.

  • Yeah.

  • PROFESSOR 1: So they're divine beings of some sort.

  • Well, we still see Lady Justice and Lady Liberty.

  • We still see them as feminine embodiments.

  • We have the Statue of Liberty.

  • We have the statues of Justice, blindfolded,

  • holding the scales.

  • They're all women.

  • And so it's a very interesting situation

  • to set up, to have a dialogue with.

  • And I like the exploratory nature of it.

  • It does seem much more Socratic to me.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Although she does set these goddesses up

  • as spokespeople for God.

  • Right?

  • PROFESSOR 1: That's true.

  • PROFESSOR 2: She's asking them what God thinks.

  • And these women are able to speak for God.

  • So I guess that's a sort of religious tradition

  • as well, having these sort of intercessory figures

  • that are often women, like the Virgin Mary,

  • or something, that can speak on behalf of God, about what God

  • thinks about stuff.

  • PROFESSOR 1: So God must trust them a lot.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Sounds like it.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Trust them to get it right.

  • OK.

  • So we're going to the highest authority here.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Right.

  • And I think it's interesting that this format allows

  • Christine to just be the humble seeker of answers.

  • I mean, she's not being this strident feminist and saying,

  • women should do this.

  • And women should do this.

  • She says, can you tell me why?

  • Can you tell me whether this is a good idea?

  • PROFESSOR 1: So she's speaking gracefully,

  • and with sweetness and softness.

  • PROFESSOR 2: And appropriate to her audience.

  • So she starts out in the section that we

  • have asking Lady Reason, "Please enlighten me again. [INAUDIBLE]

  • ever please this God who has bestowed so many

  • favors on women to honor the feminine sex with the privilege

  • of the virtue of high understanding

  • and great learning, and whether women ever

  • have a clever enough mind for this.

  • I wish very much to know this, because men maintain

  • that the mind of women can only learn a little."

  • And so I think it's interesting she

  • actually two things going on.

  • First of all, is it OK for women to be educated?

  • And then, can women handle it?

  • Is it going to be too much for them?

  • PROFESSOR 1: And the answer is quickly, well of course

  • they can handle it.

  • The opposite of those men's opinion is true.

  • And then Lady Reason says, "I will give you proof

  • through examples.

  • If it were customary to send daughters to school like sons,

  • and if they were taught the natural sciences,

  • they would learn as thoroughly and understand the subtleties

  • of all the arts and sciences as well as sons."

  • So basically saying, if the education is the same,

  • women are as capable of learning things as men.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Yeah.

  • And she goes even a little farther than that though,

  • to say that because women's bodies are

  • more delicate and weak, then their minds

  • are sharper and freer when they get the opportunity.

  • So there's sort of nature-- she's

  • suggesting at least, that nature makes up for women's weaker

  • bodies by giving them sharper minds.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Which is interesting,

  • because we see a tradition going even back to Plato that you

  • must have sound bodies to be evidence of your sound mind.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Right.

  • She sets up a little contrast here.

  • But certainly talks about women's

  • lack of education in her time being a matter of custom--

  • misguided custom-- not a matter of biological inability.

  • Right.

  • There were certainly people during this time,

  • and during other times, that thought that women were

  • incapable of learning, that their brains

  • would become overheated.

  • That it would affect their ability to have children.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Yes I remember-- my great grandmother, who

  • was going to high school in the early part of the 20th century,

  • was told at her high school, women

  • were not allowed to take physics.

  • She enrolled anyway.

  • But they were not allowed to take physics,

  • because that was bad for their body.

  • You might not be able to have children.

  • PROFESSOR 2: And here you are.

  • PROFESSOR 1: I know.

  • She did only have one child.

  • And that child was prevented from taking physical education,

  • because 20 years later, with the next generation,

  • well, they didn't want women's frail bodies

  • out there hardening themselves, because that might make it hard

  • for them to have children.

  • And yet the species manages to persevere.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Somehow.

  • Although, like Steph and I were talking before about how

  • this gets really complicated, these

  • issues about education, and women having children,

  • and the fact that the more educated women are, the fewer

  • children they tend to have, and whether that's a good thing

  • or not.

  • And we don't know.

  • PROFESSOR 1: It probably depends on which country you live in.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Certainly.

  • And the circumstances under which you're living.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Absolutely.

  • There's just not a clear, easy answer for anything, is there?

  • PROFESSOR 2: But like Plato says,

  • I think that the opportunity to ask these questions,

  • and to deal with them-- oh.

  • Sorry.

  • My phone's ringing in the background.

  • But to talk about these thins is of value in itself.

  • PROFESSOR 1: OK.

  • And I guess while Jen is shutting of her answering

  • machine, I'll talk a little bit more.

  • What I think is fun is to look at the issues

  • that we're addressing now.

  • They're hundreds of years old, and they still

  • provoke a lot of conversation.

  • And there's issues that we still try to wrestle with.

  • I mean, it's easy to come down and say yes, absolutely.

  • Women and men should be educated exactly the same.

  • Or it's easy to say, no.

  • There's some really important differences.

  • And this is what they are.

  • And there should be some differences

  • in the way people are educated in order

  • to the way they should act in society.

  • But the question that we keep going back

  • to here in both the Renaissance and medieval

  • readings we're reading for this week,

  • and then also the week before in The Republic,

  • are these questions of how society

  • is supposed to function.

  • And especially we're looking at the ruling levels of society.

  • So it's these questions move beyond individual fulfillment

  • and into your role as a citizen in a larger society.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Yeah.

  • And that's a really excellent point, partly

  • for a bunch of reasons, but I think

  • partly because when Bruto is talking

  • about his reasons for women not to be educated,

  • it's not about what necessarily will make her happy.

  • PROFESSOR 1: No.

  • PROFESSOR 2: It's about what's going to be good, right?

  • How we want things to run.

  • And that, in his time, women do not govern.

  • They do not run society.

  • So why would she learn about law and government?

  • And then even the examples that Christine de Pisan

  • gives here, I think it's interesting that she really

  • takes into account that they are women.

  • For instance, the story about Hortensia,

  • and the fact that she uses her legal knowledge

  • and her argumentative skills in order to fight against a law

  • that would harm women, or a tax on jewelry.

  • I think, oh, well, that's interesting

  • that it becomes a feminine concern

  • that she's fighting for.

  • And the other story, that the woman

  • has to be concerned about the effect of her beauty

  • on the students, and draw that veil behind them, because maybe

  • that would be distracting.

  • Maybe it would make it harder for them to learn.

  • if they have this beautiful woman in front of them

  • in a class full of young men, perhaps.

  • PROFESSOR 1: With no self-control, apparently.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Well, and that goes to this discussion

  • we were having about are the terms of the argument still

  • the same in our day and age?

  • Do we argue about what subjects boys and girls should

  • be learning?

  • Or do we argue about the method?

  • Because it does seem that there's

  • been quite a bit of research that's come out lately

  • that suggests that boys and girls do not learn the same.

  • And that the learning styles in classrooms

  • often benefit girls more than boys.

  • And so maybe we're having a similar discussion,

  • but it's not about subject matter so much as more

  • about methods.

  • PROFESSOR 1: Yeah.

  • Yeah.

  • And I suppose I should have something

  • really smart to say right now.

  • But I don't.

  • PROFESSOR 2: Well that's the end of our thing.

  • So you can think about it.

  • So we don't have answers for you.

  • We have just a lot of questions, as usual.

  • Have fun thinking about them.

PROFESSOR 1: Hello and welcome to week four.

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