EVERYBODY.

HE IS AN EMMY AND PEABODY AWARD-WINNING DIRECTOR WHO HAS

BEEN MAKING DOCUMENTARY FILMS THAT YOU KNOW AND LOVE FOR OVER

40 YEARS.

HIS LATEST IS A THREE-PART SERIES ON ERNEST HEMINGWAY.

PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW," KEN BURNS!

KEN, IT'S GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> IT'S GREAT TO SEE YOU, STEPHEN.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> Stephen: I WANT TO GET INTO THIS HEMINGWAY THREE-PART

DOCUMENTARY.

I HAVE SEEN THE FIRST FOUR HOURS SO FAR, AND IT'S INCREDIBLY

MOVING AND BEAUTIFUL AND REMINDS YOU OF WHAT A GIANT THE MAN IS

ON PAGE AND IN HIS OWN MIND, IN MANY WAYS.

>> YES.

>> Stephen: I'VE BEEN FASCINATED WITH HEMINGWAY FOR

YEARS.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, ON THE OLD SHOW, I TRIED TO GET TO THE

HEART OF HIM RIGHT HERE.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THIS PORTRAIT OF ME.

PAPA COLBERT RIGHT THERE.

THIS IS, OF COURSE, THIS IS SORT OF THE MYTHOLOGIZED HEMINGWAY.

>> YES.

>> Stephen: HOW-- HOW DO YOU-- HOW DO YOU GET PAST THE

MYTHOLOGIZED VERSION OF HIM OF THE MAN'S MAN, BIG-GAME HUNTER,

SPORTSMAN, WARRIOR, LOVER?

AND WHEN YOU GET THROUGH TO IT, IS THAT GUY STILL REALLY IN

THERE?

>> YEAH, IT'S GOOD.

I MEAN, HE WAS ALL OF THOSE THINGS, AND IN OUR FILM, I

CODIRECT WITH LYNN NOVICK, HE WAS A DEEP SEA FISHERMAN, HE WAS

A BIG-GAME HUNTER.

HE LIKED TO BRAWL AND DRINK, AND HE LOVED NATURE.

HE WAS A GREAT OUTDOORSMAN, AND YET, WHEN HE BECAME THE MOST

FAMOUS WRITER SINCE MARK TWINE IN THE 19th CENTURY,

ARGUABLY THE GREATEST WRITER OF THE 20th CENTURY IN AMERICA,

HE HELPED ESTABLISH THIS UNBELIEVABLE PERSONA OF THAT

MACHO GUY, AND HE'S NOT.

IT IS MUCH MORE COMPLICATED.

IN THE LETTERS, YOU CAN HEAR VULNERABILITY.

YOU CAN HEAR ANGER.

YOU CAN HEAR CONFUSION.

YOU CAN HEAR A KIND OF ANXIETY ABOUT THINGS.

AND IF YOU LOOK AT HIS WRITING, HE IS OFTEN PARROTING THE VERY

PERSON THAT HE IS, WHETHER IT'S FRANCIS McCULL MER, IN THE

"SHORT HAPPY LIFE FRANCIS McCULLMER," HE IS OFTEN MAKING

FUN OF AND REOEALING IN STARTLING WAYS BOORISH BEHAVIOR

ON THE PART OF MEN.

IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO DISMISS ERNEST HEMINGWAY, BECAUSE THE

BODY OF WRITING IS SO GREAT.

HIS LIFE, HIS BIOGRAPHY IS THE SAME THING HE SAID IT SHOULD

BE-- AN ICEBERG, SEVEN-TENTHS BELOW THE SURFACE, ONE-EIGHTH

ABOVE.

THAT'S THE WAY HIS WRITING IS.

WHEN YOU READ IT IS, THERE IS SO MUCH UNSPOKEN.

IT IS SO STRIPPED BARE THAT YOU ARE INVITED INTO MYSTERIES AND

QUESTIONS AND UNDERTONE AND COMPLEXITY.

IT'S THE SAME WITH HIS PRIVATE LIFE.

>> Stephen: WE FORGET THAT HEMINGWAY, BECAUSE WE THINK OF

HIS WRITING AS SO SPARE, WE THINK OF IT AS BEING SIMPLE.

AND WE FORGET HE WAS A MODERNIST WHO CHANGED THE WAY PEOPLE WROTE

IN THE 20th CENTURY, AS TOBIAS WOLF SAYS, HEMINGWAY, WHETHER

YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, HEMINGWAY REARRANGED ALL THE FURNITURE.

WE'RE LIVING IN HIS LIVING ROOM OF MODERN AMERICAN LITERATURE

RIGHT NOW.

WHAT IS IT ABOUT HIS WRITING THAT PUTS HIM IN THE SAME

TRANSFORMATIVE CLASS AS SOMEONE LIE JAMES JOYCE AND E.E.

CUMMINGS.

>> JOYCE AND CUMMINGS AND FAULKNER, THEY'RE MODERNISTS IN

THE SENSE AND THEY'RE VERY COMPLICATED, DIFFICULT TO READ.

BUT HEMINGWAY WENT IN THE OTHER DIRECTION AND WAS THE SAME

THING.

THERE WAS SO MUCH MEANING IN WHAT HE SAID.

THE SPARENESS OF THE WORDS, THE REPETITION.

HIS MOTHER HAD INSISTED ON HIM LEARNING MUSIC, AND PARTICULARLY

BAWK, AND THE REPETITION AND COUNTER-POINT, THE COUNTER-POINT

AND REPETITION IN HIM IS ABOUT THE RHYTHMIC SPEAKING OF MUSIC.

AND HE MADE HIS PROAZ A KIND OF MUSIC THAT ALMOST ANYBODY COULD

READ.

AND IT OPENS UP LAYERS OF MEANING, JUST LIKE HIS OWN

PERSONAL LIFE.

I MEAN, THIS IS A MACHO GUY WHO IS CURIOUS ABOUT GENDER REVERSAL

ROLES AND IDENTITY.

IT'S FASCINATING, YOU KNOW.

HE HAS HIS WIVES, ALL FOUR OF THEM, CUT THEIR HAIR SHORT.

HE WILL GROW HIS LONG.

YOU BE THE GUY.

I'LL BE THE GIRL.

IT IS, YOU KNOW, THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT WE INHERIT.

AND YOU BEGIN TO REALIZE THAT THAT SUPERFICIAL AND

CONVENTIONAL WISDOM DOESN'T DO HIM OR US ANY GOOD.

THE LITERATURE IS THERE AND IS SPECTACULAR AND WILL ENDURE

BECAUSE HE SEEMED TO UNDERSTAND-- HE WAS AN ENORMOUS

NOTICER OF THINGS, WHETHER IT WAS NATURE, THE AFFAIRS OF HUMAN

BEINGS-- PARTICULARLY HOW MEN AND WOMEN GET ALONG OR DON'T.

AND OF COURSE WAR.

HE'S WRITTEN SO BEAUTIFULLY AND POWERFULLY ABOUT IT STRIPPING

AWAY ALL THE BARNICLES OF SENTIMENTALITY THAT ALWAYS

ENCRUST WARS AFTER WE'RE DONE, AS IF WE CAN'T-- WE CAN'T

REMEMBER THE HORROR, SO WE HAVE TO TURN IT INTO THIS TRICKLY

KIND OF EVENT.

WHEN,SH, IT ISN'T.

AND SOME OF HIS STATEMENTS IN "A FAREWELL TO ARMS" OR IN "FOR

WHOM THE BELL TOLLS" ARE STUNNING IN THEIR EVOCATION OF

WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE IN WAR AND WHAT WAR IS.

>> Stephen: KEN, WE HAVE TO TAKE A QUICK BREAK, BUT STICK

AROUND, EVERYBODY.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH MORE DOCUMENTARIAN KEN BURNS.