I think my best that I was a human yellow light.

Okay, at my best, it's a house of horrors.

When you when you got a lace them up against that guy faced each other 44 times, right?

Hey, 1 24 of those battles.

Your team won 20 of those battles.

What was your mindset?

Just going into a game, You know, I'll never forget.

When the schedule comes out in August, you circle the date where the Lakers come to town.

And when you go to L.

A.

Because you know, those were long nights those long nights.

I'll just never forget the feeling of driving a staple center in L.

A.

And it's heaven, those butterflies in your stomach.

Because this dude, he was different.

And you never knew this was the night he decided.

You know what?

I'm gonna try to embarrass the guy garden, which I think he tried to do a lot.

But of all the things I missed complain and the emotions and I missed my teammates and winning, But I missed that that anxiety I got one.

I had to stop try to stop Kobe.

He certainly took umbrage with anyone that was labeled a quote unquote Kobe stopper, and it feels like you kind of went out of your way to avoid that particular language.

And we're almost kind of like killing him with kindness.

Right when you were playing against that was my plan.

Look, Kobe took the smallest slight is motivation.

I tried Thio almost play like your and every time.

You know, I had a good game against Cohen and he missed a ton of shots.

I said, Man, he just missed shots.

I'm a lucky guy.

Kobe Bryant has 18 points, but he's getting nothing easy.

How are you able to make everything difficult for him tonight?

He's one of the greatest players of all time and trying to make good.

I tried to be a passive and docile to him as possible.

Inside I was I was, you know, a raging bull, and I wanted to beat him more than I wanted to be anybody.

But I never wanted him to see me be aggressive or or take that challenge.

I thought that was my best way off.

Trying to guard him trying to stop him and that was passing.

I had never read his book Mamba mentality, and he actually dedicated a page to me, which, you know, it gives me goose bumps just thinking about it and talk about that game within the game within the game.

And he knew that I was trying to be passed it, that I was trying toe downplay how bad I wanted to beat him.

And it makes that even that story from better that he knew that I knew that he knew, and I knew that he knew that I knew the mental, the mental gymnastics that we played the game of cat and mouse.

There was nothing like it from a physical standpoint, but even ah, higher level thinking mental game.

Was there anyone even remotely close that you had to guard it in your career that made you go through all of these things that you were going through to just try to match up with him?

Not on the mental level, you know, obviously guarded Tracy McGrady in his prime and Manu Ginobili, LeBron Carmelo Anthony guarded Iverson, you know, all like, physically, just unbelievable scores.

None of those guys had had had this like Kobe did, and that's what took every ounce of my concentration and my effort and encourage really Thio try to stop him.

How many times did you make him become mawr?

Inefficient than normally?

You already remember the ones that got away from, you know, 50 point games and SportsCenter.

But I like to think over the course of my career, I made him work.

And if you look at the shop profile that he took, I think it was a little different against against me, a pretty good job of trying to keep him off the line and and just making hit shots.

And so he had some big games.

He had some games where that's the great, you know, I'll never forget the game when I played for the Rockets, knew the 22 game winning street, and I knew Kobe was coming to Houston to end the street.

Pau Gasol was out that game, so I'm like, Oh Lord, this dude is going to shoot the ball 40 times and that was the famous hand in the face game.

And that's where you know, E had always done that my entire career.

But the hand of the face.

Or that's where I gained fame.

And you know, Kobe.

He left it all out there.

I've never been this tired after that game.

Azad was that day and I think he scored 20 something points.

We took a time on the shots.

We won the game and that's all I cared about and s.

So that was one day with the process.

It worked.

I try not to get caught up in the results, but I was happy with the results that day.

The hand in the face was certainly your patent and move.

How did he react to that the first time you implemented it against him?

Kobe was such an amazing competitors.

He did not think that anything could affect him, right.

And and so I tried to use that against him because, like I was, you know, I was just kind of black, the vision.

But for Kobe, I knew that the only way he could prove that the hand in the face wouldn't work was to take more dribble jumpers, which was, you know, statistically his his his weakest shot on the par it was still, you know, 44 45% shot.

I would just still like that.

Yeah, 10, A league, whatever.

But that is not like these other shots he takes at the rim in transition at the future.

A lion.

And so all I want to do is kind of just push that.

But enough to say, You know what, Kobe?

Without telling him we never talked trash.

I said, you know, try to beat the hand in the face and and he did, and he did.

And sometimes he didn't beat the hand of the face.

So you're telling me he never engaged with you As far as trash talk was concerned, we never talked.

I've never had a conversation with Kobe outside the arena.

And, um, it was, I think was part of that mental game.

Now, now, some Sundays, Kobe would come up to me before the game can get big hug and, like, smile and like, Like, tell a joke.

And the next day I play him.

He'd be cold as ice.

He wouldn't even look at me, wouldn't shake my hand before the game.

And that was the mental game that we play with each other s o I never I never engaged him.

I never tried to engage him.

I never tried to butter him up.

I never tried toe around him up.

I literally just, uh, tried to do the old rope a dope.

And that was my best technique.

Is there any story that you remember even though it wasn't you necessarily engaging with him?

That story I ever heard from Mike Miller when he played with T.

Mac and in Orlando Team Act was just torching coaching this game.

I think he had, like, like, 30 points through three quarters.

So in the fourth quarter, uh, they shouldn't three throw e think team AC three throw and Kobe turns to Mike Miller and says, You know what the difference between me and him is.

He's done.

I'm just getting started.

Kobe goes on to score like 20 in the quarter and, like, wins the game going away, and I'm just like, that's the greatest story ever heard of all time.

You know, that's type of dude.

Kobe was bad.

I mean, very few guys who could tell that story would pull it off.

What was it like to face him in the playoffs?

And how did your preparation, change if at all.

There was no better challenge.

There's no better challenge and and that's that's why you play as a competitor, er and trying to figure this this guy out.

Like I said, we took those guys seven games.

That was the art test team, right that he played with you that year.

So that was the elbow.

Siri's correct.

As much as I tried to be, be passive and and try to play the old, you know, rope a dope.

Ron was just the opposite.

Alright, Ron, like to get in there and stir things up and, you know, he's like Kobe.

No.

Like, Hey, I'm here, I'm here, We're not going anywhere.

And that's what I love about Iran.

He was afraid of anybody.

You saw enough after that.

Siri's that it compelled to go play the Lakers next year again.

I know you don't like the term Kobe stoppers, but the guys that defending him did you guys ever talk about?

He exchanges you had guarding him.

First of all, I would never call myself a Kobe stopper.

I think my best that I was a human yellow light.

Okay, at my best, it's a house of horrors when you when you got a lace him up against that guy.

And so unless you try to relive those memories, the better.

Thanks for watching ESPN on YouTube for live streaming sports and premium content.

Subscribe Thio, ESPN, plus.