Placeholder Image

Subtitles section Play video

  • In this episode of MarieTV, we do have some adult language, so if you have a little ones

  • around grab your headphones now.

  • Hey.

  • It's Marie Forleo, and you're listening to the Marie Forleo Podcast.

  • You know, today's culture is one that's filled with fear, scarcity, and uncertainty.

  • What we need most in times like these are people who are willing to step up, people

  • who are willing to be brave, to be courageous, and to lead with heart.

  • My guest today is here to show us how to do just that.

  • Dr. Brené Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston where she holds

  • the Huffington Foundation Brené Brown Endowed Chair at the Graduate College of Social Work.

  • She spent the past two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy, and is

  • the author of four number one New York Times bestsellers: Braving the Wilderness, Rising

  • Strong, Daring Greatly, and The Gifts of Imperfection.

  • Her TED Talk, The Power of Vulnerability, is one of the top five most viewed TED Talks

  • in the world––yes, in the world––with more than 35 million views.

  • Brené lives in Houston, Texas with her husband Steve and their children Ellen and Charlie.

  • Her latest book which we're going to talk about today, Dare to Lead: Brave Work, Tough

  • Conversations, Whole Hearts, is available now.

  • Brené, it is so great to have you on the Marie Forleo Podcast.

  • You're one of my favorite humans in the whole world.

  • I texted you this, but I need to say it right now: Dare to Lead, another one that you knocked

  • out of the park.

  • My book is filled with underlines and highlights and dog-eared pages and all of the good things,

  • but I need to ask you.

  • You're so prolific.

  • I am curious.

  • Why this topic and why right now?

  • First, I just...

  • Anywhere, anytime, doing anything, I'm yours.

  • I'm in.

  • Thank you for having me back.

  • Let me tell you.

  • The last time we did something together, you have amazing...

  • You have an amazing crew.

  • Not only the people who work with you, but your community is incredible.

  • So thank you for inviting me in again.

  • Anytime.

  • So why this book?

  • Oh, my god.

  • It's a really good question.

  • A couple years ago, we got super clear.

  • Like the name of our company is Brené Brown Education Research Group.

  • So we have this mission of making the world a greater place by sharing our research and

  • our work in a really accessible, relevant way with impact, looking for impact and scale.

  • I realized and I had already been studying leadership, but I didn't think I would do

  • a leadership book per se.

  • I thought I would just weave it in like I kind of did with Daring Greatly and Rising

  • Strong and weave it into other books.

  • I had this huge epiphany actually in New York.

  • I was working with an organization that has 25,000 employees and was really just struggling.

  • The leadership was not showing.

  • They weren't showing up like they wanted to show up.

  • People were just really in a dark place.

  • I thought "You know what?

  • You can't change the world.

  • You can't make the world a greater place if you don't change how we work because, as adults,

  • we spend more than half of our lives at work."

  • I think everyone listening will attest to the fact that if work is toxic, if work is

  • shaming, if work makes you question your value, everything in your life just goes to shit.

  • Yes.

  • That gets an amen on a Wednesday or Thursday from me.

  • Yeah.

  • So I just thought "You know what?

  • I'm going to do this."

  • I think it's a book for everyone.

  • We define...

  • I define a leader as anyone who takes responsibility for finding the potential in people and processes

  • and has the courage to develop that potential.

  • So this is not a book for people in the C-Suite or people with corner offices and big titles.

  • This is a book for every one of us that wants to show up, contribute, and lean into our

  • purpose.

  • So in the book, you talk a lot about armored leadership versus daring leadership.

  • Let's talk about what is underneath these different approaches.

  • I just want to underscore what you just said about this is for everyone because I feel

  • like, especially in my community for the folks listening right now from what I've read in

  • emails and just keeping in touch with our folks, one of the things that can plague us

  • is not thinking that our voice matters, not thinking that we have anything important to

  • say or that, as you said, if we're not in that corner office, we're not at that C-Suite

  • level, that we're not a leader.

  • But I do think, as you well know, now more than ever we need brave people to stand up

  • in every corner of every organization, of their families, of their friend groups, everything.

  • Let's think about this from that perspective.

  • Armored leadership versus daring leadership, what's that about?

  • So here's what was really...

  • I have to be honest with you.

  • This was the most...

  • This kind of blew my hypothesis out of the water.

  • I went in thinking that the biggest barrier to daring leadership is fear.

  • We're afraid.

  • There's a lot of new research in here including interviews with 150 leaders and a three-year

  • process of building and instrument to measure your daring leadership capacity.

  • I started looking at the data, and I was like "Oh, my god.

  • I don't think fear...

  • I don't think the greatest barrier to daring leadership is fear.

  • I'm wrong."

  • So I went back and started interviewing some of the bravest people I know, I mean bravest

  • leaders I know again from social justice movements to oil and gas companies, and they're like

  • "Fear?

  • No, I'm afraid all the time."

  • I was like "What do you mean?"

  • They're like "No, I'm afraid everyday."

  • I was like "It's not fear."

  • Then as we started digging, what we realized is the greatest barrier is not our fear.

  • It's our armor, how we show up when we're in fear.

  • Some of us, in fear, recognize the fear.

  • We're very aware of what kind of armor we depend on, how we self-protect, but most of

  • us, myself included, still to this day when we feel vulnerable or uncertain or at risk

  • or criticized, we armor up.

  • That armor, those different behaviors we use to self-protect, they corrode trust, they

  • move us into fear, they keep us away from courageous decision-making, and they really

  • are toxic to whatever our mission and purpose is.

  • So what it really came down to, the heart of the book, is the difference between.

  • If everyone's afraid, daring leadership is having the skills to lean into the fear and

  • figure out what the hell's going on and stay brave.

  • Armored leadership is those terrible behaviors that we lean into to protect.

  • What do some of those look like for you?

  • So I know for me, even mostly in a personal realm, right?

  • Yeah.

  • For me to armor up, I know it's like I shut down.

  • In the book, you were writing...

  • I actually have some friends that I joke with about this.

  • It's almost like I do turn into a Transformer.

  • All of the metal, right?

  • Everything just comes up and it's like boom.

  • It all gets sucked inside and it's like you cannot penetrate.

  • My vision, my heart, everything closes down.

  • I'm curious what are some of the ways that it shows up for you.

  • Well 16 of them emerged from the research.

  • It was 16 different types of armor.

  • Our armories are very full, and 16 kind of daring leadership approaches to counter that

  • armor.

  • But I think some of the big ones that we face: driving perfectionism and fostering fear of

  • failure.

  • Yes.

  • Perfectionism is armor.

  • I mean perfectionism is the 20-ton shield.

  • Yes.

  • It's really...

  • All perfectionism...

  • I mean it's not striving for excellence or healthy striving.

  • That's completely different.

  • That's completely internally motivated.

  • Yes.

  • Perfectionism is "Oh, god.

  • What will people think?"

  • Yes.

  • So the daring leadership response to perfectionism is modeling and encouraging healthy striving,

  • empathy, and self-compassion.

  • So if you've got a team and I'm thinking about all the people I know who follow you in a

  • cult-like but great way and most of them are young entrepreneurs, they are people...

  • I mean they lean into your work so heavily as they're trying to build their own businesses.

  • Yes.

  • I can tell you...

  • And most of them are women.

  • Not all, but most.

  • I can tell you, from interviewing a lot of young entrepreneurs for this work, how many

  • times...

  • I mean I get teary-eyed every time I think about it.

  • I sat across from someone who sunk all their savings or borrowed money from their family

  • and really started this thing that they believed in and let their perfectionism completely

  • corrode it.

  • Yes.

  • Yes.

  • It breaks my heart.

  • I try to share as often as possible, Brené, A) how long it's taken me to get where I am

  • and how long––seven years––I had all these different side jobs because I didn't

  • know what I was doing.

  • And I still am the farthest thing from perfect.

  • We make mistakes all the time.

  • I love that we're talking about this.

  • I really, really do.

  • I think it's especially important in the time that we're in right now where Instagram is

  • obviously most of our favorite social media platforms and it's the place where everything

  • can look the shiniest and the prettiest and the most perfect which that's a whole other

  • conversation.

  • But I was having a talk with a girlfriend the other day and I said "Hey.

  • How are you?"

  • Because she's been experiencing a really tough, difficult time.

  • I said "I've been watching you on Instagram and I've been wanting to give you your space."

  • We were laughing because she's like "Instagram's mostly a lie."

  • Yeah.

  • I howled out loud, but to your point about daring leadership and perfectionism and that's

  • one of the ways that we armor up, I just really want to appreciate you for calling all of

  • this out because it's so, so important.

  • Another thing I highlighted in the book which I love this phrase, "Embrace the suck."[a]

  • I really want to drive home this point that courage and fear are not mutually exclusive.

  • We do not have to stop feeling afraid to do brave, courageous things.

  • Thank you.

  • Y'all, I mean people make up...

  • I could just spend the rest of my life reading a book of stories people make up about me

  • and what my life is like.

  • I'll be honest with you.

  • I texted my chief of staff like five minutes ago––who is my sister––and was like

  • "Oh, my god.

  • Is this shit with Marie audio or video?"

  • She goes "Audio.

  • I've already told you I'll give you a head up if it's video."

  • Right now, I'm sitting here.

  • My hair is wet and I've got like masks under my eye bags because I'm just getting over

  • being sick.

  • I threw my tennis shoes on.

  • I just came downstairs.

  • I've got one Adidas tennis shoe on and one Converse tennis shoe on.

  • I didn't realize I grabbed two different tennis shoes.

  • Yes.

  • Okay.

  • You want to trade stories?

  • Yeah.

  • So I came into my studio.

  • Right now, same thing.

  • It's like a little bit.

  • Today's one of those hot fall days in New York City.

  • Yeah.

  • My uniform when I'm not doing my show which I like to say "It's the Marie Forleo...

  • It's MarieTV.

  • It's a show."

  • But I run into people all the time on the street with no makeup.

  • My uniform is a really comfy v-neck tee-shirt and some form of jeans and flip flops.

  • That is my happy place.

  • So I come into my studio about to record this, right?

  • So I have a thing where if I have a lot of visual clutter around, I find it hard to concentrate.

  • That's just one of the things that helps me just stay focused.

  • So I think it was like a week or two ago.

  • We were here in the studio filming some stuff, and I just had a moment where there were so

  • many...

  • You know when you just look around, you're like "How did all this clutter get here?"

  • Like it just accumulates.

  • So my team helped me clear things out because they know how important it is to me, and I'm

  • getting ready for this podcast and guess what, Brené?

  • My podcast mike that we're on right now, the little plug, the USB that helps it plug in

  • is not fucking there.

  • So it's literally...

  • So I'm like "Oh, shit.

  • I got to talk to Brené in like 10 minutes."

  • So here's where grace comes in.

  • I knew I chose this particular location where I'm in in New York City for a reason.

  • First of all, it's around the corner from my favorite karaoke place ever, and it happens

  • to be down the street from a place called Adorama, which is a place that is all tech,

  • like cameras, audio equipment.

  • I am running down the street, Brené.

  • Everything is jingling.

  • This is like literally 10 minutes before you and I just hopped on to record this, and I'm

  • sweating bullets to get this USB port, begging these guys in the store.

  • I'm like "Hey, I'm about to record a podcast with one of my really dear friends.

  • I really need this USB port.

  • Can you help me?"

  • They ran, got the USB port.

  • I'm running back down in Manhattan on the street and get back in the studio.

  • For anyone thinking that we have our shit all together––

  • Yeah.

  • That's a lie.

  • Don't tell yourself that in order so you can snuggle up with your own self-doubt.

  • You don't...

  • Don't use me.

  • Yes.

  • Don't use me as your "I suck" snuggle toy.

  • Oh, my god.

  • I love you.

  • Yeah, because that's not going to work.

  • Okay.

  • So moving on, let's talk about shame and empathy.

  • I want to dive into shame first.

  • On page 126 of Dare to Lead, you write "Shame is the fear of disconnection."

  • You also write that the fear of being irrelevant––and my goodness, girl, I highlighted this so many

  • times.

  • "The fear of being irrelevant is a huge shame trigger that we are not addressing at work."

  • I threw my hands up when I read that.

  • I think this is so true for employees in this time right now.

  • I think it's true for CEOs.

  • I think it's true for startups, for anyone who is looking to make a difference and make

  • a positive impact in this world.

  • This is one of the things in the room that we're not talking about, this fear and the

  • same of being irrelevant because things are moving so fast.

  • So I'm curious to hear more of your take on this.

  • I think it's one of the biggest shame triggers at work that we face.

  • I've got to tell you that comparison is the devil here.

  • Yes.

  • Yes.

  • Whether you've got your own side hustle and you're trying to do something or you've got...

  • You're in a really steady job that you're trying to climb up the ladder, whatever it

  • is.

  • We just spend so much time and energy checking the other lanes.

  • Yes.

  • There's nothing that kills you in a race like looking over and checking lanes.[b] I think

  • it's interesting because going back to the armored leadership versus daring leadership,

  • one of the comparisons of the two and how they show up is one is hustling for your worth.

  • Yes.

  • And the other is knowing... daring leadership is knowing your value.

  • When I say knowing your value, I don't mean like looking in the mirror and saying "I value

  • you and I love you and you're awesome, Brené.

  • Let's go kick some ass."

  • I mean if you do that, that's rock on.

  • That's great.

  • What I'm talking about is a sit-down with the people, with your supervisor, with whoever

  • you work with, with the people, the family members that lent you $10000 to start your

  • Etsy business, whoever that you trust.

  • Sit down and say "Help me explore and name the value I bring.

  • Help me know what it is that I do uniquely well.

  • Tell me what it is that you think the strengths that I bring."

  • We have to understand our value because for one thing, it's really hard for shame.

  • Shame will pick somebody else.

  • They'll pick on someone else.

  • They don't choose the people who are very clear with their value because it's harder

  • to stick to us sometimes.

  • So I think...

  • I know my value.

  • I know what it is and I know what it isn't.

  • I know that the budget work and doing proformas and projecting things is not my strength so

  • I have a CFO that's amazing at doing that.

  • What I know is my strength is...

  • It's really weird and it's tied to my purpose.

  • I'm really good at seeing connections between things that most people don't see and then

  • wrapping language around it in a way that makes it accessible and makes people feel

  • less alone.

  • I know that's my thing.

  • Absolutely.

  • So yeah, when I come out of a week where I've done none of that work and I'll I've done

  • is stared at spreadsheets, which I'm not good at things like that, I'm just not, unless

  • someone...

  • My CFO is really good with me because he wraps a narrative and he tells me a story about

  • the numbers.

  • I'm like, I tell him, "That makes sense to me."

  • But when we don't know our value and there are changes at work or there's turmoil or

  • whatever, we're the first to go.

  • Then we start hustling.

  • Then we start "I don't know my value.

  • I don't know if I'm relevant.

  • Look at me.

  • Look at me.

  • Look at me over here.

  • I've got the answers to everything.

  • I'm the best."

  • Then we go into comparison.

  • Then it's just a shit show from that point forward.

  • Totally.

  • I think you hit on something that I really want to go back to because I think it's huge.

  • I felt it in my heart when you said it.

  • I recognized it in myself.

  • Sometimes...

  • We have a program named B-School, right?

  • Yeah.

  • Of course.

  • I work with people every year and I have so much fun.

  • One of the things that I often do is I just go live.

  • In that particular case, it's been in our Facebook group where I just pop up, I throw

  • on...

  • That's actually really fun for me because I just do it in my kitchen or wherever the

  • hell I am.

  • I'm just like "Yeah.

  • All right.

  • Let's do this, guys.

  • Let's throw down.

  • Let's talk.

  • What are your questions?

  • What's happening?"

  • I am so alive when I get to work with people, when I'm dealing with them one-on-one.

  • I have started to recognize in myself if I don't have enough of that, when I am not flexing

  • my strengths...

  • When you were saying, right, if I haven't done this, kind of seeing the patterns and

  • wrapping language around, and making it accessible for people and helping them feel like they're

  • not alone.

  • If you haven't flexed those muscles enough, that's almost when we pull out of our strengths

  • and then all of a sudden, we start looking around to the left and to the right.

  • Comparison hits in and I call it compareschlager.

  • I feel like it's–– Totally.

  • Do you remember...

  • You may not remember this, but maybe for me, it was like Goldschlager, it was like that

  • terrible liquor way, way back in the day.

  • Oh, yeah.

  • Oh, with the gold flakes.

  • It's like once you do a few shots of that, you're down for days if not weeks.

  • It's really hard.

  • So I do want to underscore for anyone listening, if you're thinking like "Oh, god.

  • Yes, comparison is one of my habits," Brené gave you a huge, huge hint.

  • The more that you understand and know your strengths, what value you bring, and you make

  • sure you're practicing that, exercising that, flexing that, serving through that, the less

  • space and time we kind of pull back and go into that comparison zone.

  • I love it.

  • One of the things that made me really proud as a leader because it's something I work

  • on a lot was getting some 360 feedback about my own leadership which was hard because not

  • everything was great.

  • It was a pretty mixed bag, but one thing that I was proud of is that everyone reported to

  • me could almost recite verbatim what they thought their value was in a conversation

  • that we had about their value.

  • That's awesome.

  • Yeah.

  • It's...

  • I think one of the most dangerous things I've seen even in my own leadership and then working

  • with other leaders is when we're leading a team...

  • Let's just stick with value for a second because there's two types.

  • There's value, like what value do you bring and what are your values.

  • So this is, to me, one of the biggest hacks in the book, that is the most tremendous game

  • changer.

  • And we've done this work everywhere from the Gates Foundation to Shell Oil, across the

  • board, and it has changed teams.

  • It's this.

  • One, make sure the people who work with you, and especially if they report to you, make

  • sure they understand their value.

  • Have an explicit conversation about it.

  • Then, I don't think you can really know people unless you understand their values.

  • Not the value they bring, but the ideas and beliefs they hold most precious.

  • One of the exercises we do, and it's so great, is we just get a large post it poster and

  • we hang it up.

  • And everyone writes down their two values.

  • Mine are faith and courage.

  • And then we spend, we leave them up for a week, and then over the course of the week,

  • everyone on our team puts a sticky note up for that person, anonymously, about how their

  • behaviors really show those values and what they appreciate about those values in that

  • person.

  • And when you're sitting with a team during a hard-as-shit rumble, because there's been

  • a failure, or we made a consumer facing mistake, or something's happening, and you're sitting

  • across from someone and you're pissed and you feel blaming, but you know that their

  • values are connection and learning.

  • You know how to lean into the conversation with them.

  • You know it's going to hurt, you know what they can hear and what's really hard to hear

  • when things are tough.

  • We're just not having enough of these conversations about the value we bring, and the value we

  • stand for.

  • I'm so excited about this, because you just gave me a perfect idea.

  • I was just thinking, as I'm listening to you, and I loved that part in the book, it's going

  • to be fun for us to do because we have a virtual company.

  • Our entire team is distributed.

  • Yeah.

  • There's about 30 of us, and we do very, very well.

  • We get together, periodically.

  • We went on vacation together in Mexico, I think it was a year and a half or two years

  • ago, but this is going to be fun for us to do, because we love it.

  • And we love each other.

  • Thank you for highlighting that because we're not talking about those things enough.

  • In my personal life, Love Languages, one of the simple tools that has made a huge difference

  • in my relationship with Josh, and even frankly on our team, we use Love Languages on our

  • team so that we understand each other, and we can therefore offer appreciation, and love,

  • to one another in a way that's going to be well-received.

  • This value conversation is top-notch.

  • I also want to talk about empathy.

  • Again, this was another section in the book, highlighted a ton.

  • You write, "In those bad moments, it's not our job to make things better, it's just not.

  • Our job is to connect.

  • It's to take the perspective of someone else.

  • Empathy is not connecting to an experience, it's connecting to the emotions that underpin

  • an experience.

  • Empathy isn't about fixing, it's the brave choice to be with someone in their darkness."

  • Let's talk about this distinction, because I think it's really important to get the nuance

  • here between empathy and sympathy.

  • Yeah.

  • I think one of the issues, every now and then, we're in the middle of this right now.

  • Every now and then, social scientists will find a word that we've all come to understand,

  • accept, feel encouraged by, and they'll go under attack about it.

  • A couple of years ago, people took on authenticity.

  • Now there's a couple people taking on empathy and saying, "No, empathy is not the answer.

  • It's too exhausting.

  • It's too hard.

  • We just need to be compassionate."

  • Well, I call bullshit, to be honest with.

  • Because as someone whose studied empathy for 20 years, and has studied compassion, they're

  • different things.

  • The deal with empathy is this, if you call me and say––I'm gonna make up something.

  • "Hey, it's me.

  • Josh and I just had a really big argument, and..."

  • I don't know, I can't use this example because I would relate to that personally.

  • Here's the thing.

  • As a social worker, I've heard stories about––and as a research, I've heard about your sexual

  • assault, the death of a child.

  • I've heard everything you can imagine from people.

  • I have a great capacity for empathy in those things.

  • Not because I've had those experiences.

  • That has nothing to do with having those experiences.

  • It's the fact that I understand some of the emotion underneath those experiences, and

  • can connect with it.

  • I always give people, we'll give people a test, Marie, right now, who are listening.

  • We're going to give you an empathy capacity test.

  • Number one, have you ever felt grief?

  • Yes.

  • Loneliness?

  • Anger?

  • Yes.

  • Joy?

  • Resentment?

  • Contempt?

  • Okay, you pass.

  • Because I can say to someone, "No, I don't.

  • I've never had that experience.

  • But I can hear you and hold space for you, and be with you, because I do know rage.

  • And I do know grief.

  • And I do know sorrow.

  • I do know longing for something that doesn't exist anymore.

  • I do know those things."

  • The danger...

  • Let me just say this because this is where people get...

  • This is tricky.

  • Yeah.

  • Empathic failure is more likely to happen sometimes with people who've had the exact

  • experience, because even if I've had the exact experience, even if I've been fired in front

  • of my colleagues, that doesn't mean it was the same for me.

  • Empathy is about connecting with an emotion that someone is experiencing.

  • And conveying back, or understanding of that emotion.

  • "I feel that with you.

  • I understand."

  • It's not that I went through it, but I understand what this feels like and I can hold space

  • for it.

  • Sympathy is, "You know what, that never really happened to me, I feel sorry for you.

  • I'm sad for you."

  • It's feeling for someone, not with them.

  • I can even, you know it's funny.

  • You're

  • Obviously we're having a discussion right now, and your role playing, you're demonstrating

  • for us just a few words, but even listening to you, even though this is all made up, I

  • can feel the difference.

  • I can feel the difference just with those two statements.

  • I also want to share something that you wrote in the book, which I think will be incredibly

  • helpful for our listeners, because sometimes when hard things happen, folks are afraid

  • to say the wrong thing to a friend or colleague.

  • They just don't know, should they call, should they email, should they text?

  • And one of the things I underlined, that you wrote, was a quote.

  • You say, "I don't even know what to say right now, I'm just so glad you told me."

  • Something so simple.

  • Something so easy to communicate.

  • I just wanted to thank you for even giving language to that, because we've heard from

  • people, I know I've experienced this in my own life, when something horrendous happens,

  • you can freeze up because you don't want to make a mistake or say the wrong thing.

  • Perfectionism rising its head again.

  • I just wanted to share that because people need to know.

  • Dare to Lead is filled with all of these incredible tools and starters, and sentence stems that

  • all of us can use.

  • I do want to ask you this, and I want to acknowledge this right now, because I read this in the

  • book, Brené.

  • That you still, after 20 years of doing this incredible work, when you are learning new

  • tools, that you take notes.

  • You have notes about the things that you'd like to say or communicate, and the way that

  • you want to do it.

  • It's something I do, too, especially when I'm having hard conversations.

  • If I have to let someone go, or it's just a really tough thing that we need to get into,

  • that's not going to be comfortable.

  • You still do that, too?

  • I always take notes.

  • I always take notes, I role play a lot, and sometimes I'll ask, I'll say, "Hey, Marie.

  • I have to have a really hard conversation."

  • Let's just say, I have to have a really hard conversation about a partner that we're working

  • with, whose deliverables are, over the last month, consistently not up to par.

  • And would you be willing to play me in this role play, and I'm going to play the person

  • I have to talk to, because I'm gonna come back...

  • I'm going to come at you with everything I'm afraid they're going to say.

  • So good.

  • So good.

  • Marie will say, "Sure, what do you want me to say?"

  • And then...

  • Let's just do it, Marie.

  • Yeah.

  • I want you to say, "Over the last month, there's been a decline in the quality of the deliverables.

  • And we need to rumble on what's happening."

  • Okay.

  • Over the last month, there has been a decline in the quality of the deliverables, and we

  • need to rumble on this.

  • Your team is so hard to work with.

  • And you're never around.

  • What do you expect?

  • That is interesting information.

  • I want to take that, we should talk about that because I'd like to hear the specifics.

  • More about what you mean that they're not around, so that we can really find some common

  • ground here to get it to where you feel it's a great working relationship, and also that

  • we get the quality that we need.

  • Okay.

  • Fucking nailed it.

  • Oh, did I?

  • Shit.

  • You totally nailed it.

  • No, you totally nailed it because I can give you the whole, the biggest hack in the book

  • is, when you have to lean into vulnerability, and embrace the suck during a hard conversation,

  • we have to take off the armor and that's scary because then we're just left standing there.

  • What do we use if we don't have the armor?

  • And curiosity is the leaders tool.

  • Stay curious.

  • You just stayed curious.

  • I want to hear more about that, give me some examples.

  • What does that never around look like?

  • What does...

  • Tell me, you say my team is hard to work with, I want to understand.

  • Tell me what that looks like specifically?

  • That is how you stay in the hard conversation.

  • Get curious.

  • If I, literally you and I work together and I did this role play with you, and you came

  • back ... I have goose bumps right now, literally, because...

  • Okay.

  • Got it.

  • If they come at me about how shitty we are, don't defend, don't transform her up, stay

  • open and get curious.

  • Stay open, get curious.

  • This is the way we work, every day in our organization, because we have a lot of hard

  • conversations.

  • It just works.

  • I don't know what to tell you.

  • It just works.

  • Yes, it does just work.

  • When, for me, our team, again, even in my personal life, when I can remember these things,

  • it's miraculous what happens to our connections, to our intimacy, to our ability to trust one

  • another.

  • It really does all come back to vulnerability.

  • Let's go into that more, for a moment.

  • You share in the book that vulnerability is not winning or losing, it's having the courage

  • to show up when you can't control the outcomes.

  • And I happen to know this about my listeners, because sometimes folks who are inspired by

  • our work, we tend to share some DNA.

  • The desire to control outcomes, right?

  • Yeah.

  • That's something that a lot of us can relate to.

  • How can we...

  • Tell us more about vulnerability.

  • And I want to move on to, also, and take this however you want, wherever we want to go,

  • making the distinction between vulnerability, and oversharing.

  • Discerning what's appropriate and healthy, and what's not.

  • Okay.

  • Great question.

  • Let me tell you, here's...

  • One big idea coming from the book that surprised me was that it's not our fear that gets in

  • the way, it's our armor.

  • Another big idea that I think came from the book is courage is teachable.

  • It's a collection of four skill sets that are 100% teachable, measurable, and observable.

  • We can learn to be braver.

  • We can teach others to do it.

  • We've done it in now 50 organizations, with over 10,000 people.

  • You can learn to be brave, and braver.

  • When we looked into what are these skill sets?

  • What does courage look like?

  • What is...

  • How does it show up?

  • What we realized is, out of the four skill sets, vulnerability is the foundational skill.

  • The capacity to rumble with vulnerability.

  • Vulnerability is the emotion that we experience when we feel uncertain, at risk, or emotionally

  • exposed.

  • When we put up that honest blog post, when we have to have a hard conversation like we

  • just modeled.

  • When we have to ask for feedback, when we get feedback, whether we ask for it or not.

  • When we have to give feedback.

  • When things are messy in the middle, and we just want a quick fix, because we don't like

  • staying in the uncertainty.

  • Your capacity for courage, our capacity for courage, as leaders, will never be greater

  • than our capacity and ability to rumble with vulnerability.

  • Who are you when you're awash in that emotion of uncertainty and risk, and emotional exposure?

  • I'll give y'all an indicator.

  • It's four skill sets, half the book is the first skillset, vulnerability.

  • Vulnerability is...

  • Let's go back to the role play that you just fricking nailed.

  • Again, I promise y'all we didn't actually role play the role play, she just nailed it

  • like a mother.

  • Do you, if you are working with a partner, a collaborator, and everything they're giving

  • you has just, you feel like has just gone to hell.

  • And you have to have that hard conversation.

  • A daring leader talks to those people directly.

  • Armored leader, talks about those people to other people.

  • That's not brave.

  • Vulnerability is that phone call.

  • Having to pick up the phone, or get on Skype, or Zoom, or Slack, or whatever you're using,

  • and say, "Somethings not working."

  • That's a moment of vulnerability.

  • People always, I just did an interview for Ink magazine, and they said, "How much, if

  • you want to be a daring leader, how much personal stuff should you share with people?"

  • And I'm like, when I get asked that question, I know you don't understand what I'm talking

  • about.

  • Because I have interview daring leaders who share very little and are incredibly vulnerable,

  • but they disclose very little personally.

  • And then I've worked with leaders who disclose everything and they're not vulnerable at all.

  • Yes.

  • It's not about how much you share, it's about can you stay in the discomfort?

  • Can you embrace the suck?

  • For me, you mentioned having to let somebody go.

  • Yes.

  • How many of you listening have stayed in a working relationship, any kind of relationship,

  • way too long because you're afraid of the discomfort of having the brave or hard conversation?

  • It's something, Brené, that we've learned in our company.

  • When we discover that someone is not the right fit, we strive to move as quickly as possible,

  • because we feel like it is the most loving thing to do.

  • For sure.

  • And it's never easy.

  • I know the last time that I did it, it was not long ago, and it was very, very difficult.

  • There were tears, and it really took everything in me to stay open and to keep my heart open,

  • and to hear and to listen, and to let this person know about their value and their gifts,

  • and the truth was, for me, that I wanted them to keep going.

  • It was, became clear that we weren't the right environment to have them ultimately thrive

  • to their fullest potential.

  • There wasn't that match.

  • Even though it was difficult, it was like, "Now that person has an opportunity to take

  • their gifts and to have them fly in an environment where it is the right fit."

  • I want to talk about rumble starters, and shitty first drafts, if we may, from the Learning

  • to Rise section.

  • Yep.

  • The one on page 172 that you said, "By far, is the most powerful rumble starter in the

  • free world."

  • You said, "It's changed every facet of your life."

  • What is it, and how can it help us stay on the path to braver leadership?

  • By the way, before you answer that, I made a little note.

  • I feel like, you know how my book is Everything is Figureoutable?

  • Yeah.

  • When you were talking about courage, I was like courage is figureoutable.

  • I wrote it down on my little note pad, because it is.

  • Anyone listening, courage is figureoutable.

  • Brené has the steps.

  • She has the skills.

  • She has what you can practice, and it's all in Dare to Lead.

  • Okay, back to rumble starters.

  • It is so figureoutable.

  • I have thought about you so many times.

  • Sometimes my team will say to me, "You know?

  • Your problem and your gift is you believe that everything can be figured out."

  • And I'm like, "I just, Marie Forleo'ed your ass right now.

  • Yes."

  • I think it is.

  • I was just reading Neil Degrasse Tyson's, a book about astrophysics.

  • He has this great quote that I highlighted.

  • I'm like, "Oh, that's going in my book."

  • He's like, "We are a part of the universe."

  • I'm going to mangle this quote, you guys, so please...

  • Because I haven't memorized it yet.

  • It's like, "We are a part of the universe, and inherent in it, that is our ability to

  • figure it all out."

  • I was like, "Yes."

  • I'm with you, Brené.

  • That gave me goosebumps.

  • Yes.

  • Even if people think, even if they do think it's our Achilles heel, I'm fine with it.

  • I will retain my position as an optimist, and I love the spirit of adventure that, again,

  • like courage and bravery, that we can figure it out, that it is learnable.

  • That we can dig in and do the work, and become who were meant to be.

  • Okay, on to rumble starters.

  • Okay.

  • The number one rumble starters...

  • If you just came into our office as a fly on the wall, you would hear all of us say

  • it, I bet, 10 times a day.

  • And it's, the story I'm making up.

  • Because when hard things happen, neurobiologically, the brain wants a story, because the brain's

  • job is to protect us.

  • It senses that we're anxious or fearful, or feel vulnerable.

  • The brain's like, "Give me a story.

  • Help me understand what's going on so I can protect you.

  • Who are the bad guys here?

  • Who are the good guys?"

  • Let me tell you, we make up this story.

  • How many of you have ever gotten conflict at work?

  • Or at home?

  • Or with a parent or a partner?

  • And walked out of the room with this entire story made up about what's happening.

  • Here's the thing.

  • You make up a story with bad guys and good guys, you put yourself in a "they're out to

  • get you," place, the brain loves a story with bad guys and dangerous things.

  • In fact, if you give it a really good one, it'll reward you chemically.

  • The brain is not interested in an, "I'm not sure what happened in that meeting.

  • Something felt off, I could have had a part."

  • The brain's like, "That's a bullshit story.

  • Who's the enemy?"

  • And the more we give that, the brain what they want, the more the brain rewards us.

  • Men and women with the highest levels of resilience, who we've interviewed over the past decades,

  • use this sentence, "The story I'm telling myself."

  • I probably have done this, I bet...

  • It's 11 o'clock here, I bet I've already done it twice today with my team.

  • We're launching a new Dare to Lead hub, along with the book.

  • This morning I was looking at something, and I was like, "You know?

  • This is still not changed.

  • And we've talked about it three or four times.

  • I'm starting to make up either someone on the team disagrees, and so is not changing

  • it, we need to have a conversation about it.

  • Or, it's just not the same priority for you as it is for me.

  • Yes.

  • And we have these conversations all the time.

  • So, Murdock, my manager, he's “What's going on?”

  • “I just want to check in, I'm making up that you're not concerned about these deliverables."

  • Or, "I'm making it that you're pissed off about what happened in the meeting."

  • No, I'm not pissed off at all.

  • My foot fell asleep and I'm grumpy.”

  • Just that story.

  • Help me understand, the story I make up is we handled it this way, because we thought

  • it was the fastest way to get out of it, not necessarily the best way to get out of it.

  • And then someone might come back and say, "That story's not true.

  • I sat this for two days trying to figure it out.

  • This was my idea, because I thought it was the best way and here's why.”

  • It's such an open-hearted, honest, vulnerable way to say, we got to rumble about something

  • hard.

  • And let me be brave and upfront about the stories I'm coming to the table with.

  • I love it.

  • I'm so excited to use this.

  • I'm going to use it, I can promise you.

  • Our team is going to adopt this.

  • It's brilliant.

  • Josh, and I actually do this quite a bit.

  • And it really works magic.

  • Again, I feel like so much of what we do in our personal lives can be translated frankly

  • to the workplace.

  • I'm curious about the time that we're in right now, right?

  • Which is obviously challenging, externally very divisive politically.

  • What about your experience being a brave leader?

  • This is a question that we get a lot, Brené.

  • I know this has happened for you, it's actually just happened for me recently, where people

  • want to kind of shout me down, tell me to sit down and be quiet.

  • You're only supposed to motivate me, you're only supposed to talk to me about this narrow

  • little array of topics, and should I express an opinion or a belief in anything, otherwise,

  • all hell fucking breaks loose, right?

  • I'm curious if you have anything to share, because some of my folks have gone like, "Oh,

  • my goodness, Marie, thank you for saying something.

  • You actually just gave me courage to say something.

  • How does the fear of public shaming play in to someone who's listening, right, who wants

  • to be more brave and open-hearted as a leader?

  • I am still in recovery mode from...

  • I posted a picture of Anita Hill and Professor Ford, and said, "I think courage is contagious

  • and this is what vulnerability looks like."

  • And thousands of people unfollowed.

  • It was my most circulated, shared and liked post in my history on social media.

  • So, that just points to the absolute divisiveness.

  • It's a war zone.

  • Yeah.

  • I want to keep talking about this.

  • I want to say two things.

  • One, is one of the other key things that I underlined in your book was the research that

  • points to how painful this can be.

  • You'll have the science better than I will, but this might be of a trigger for you, is

  • how getting emotionally attacked, and how that's analogous to physical pain.

  • Oh, yeah.

  • Our brain, literally, we feel social pain in the exact same way we feel physical pain.

  • Same part of the brain, same part of everything.

  • It is real.

  • I have to say, before I usually go out with something like that, Steve and I will have

  • a conversation, my husband.

  • Because it affects me.

  • It doesn't affect me, to be honest with you, I don't give a shit if you unfollow me.

  • I have to be really honest.

  • My job is to be myself.

  • I don't owe you anything.

  • Follow me, don't follow me, it doesn't matter to me.

  • Because if a condition of you following me is to stay quiet on things I believe in, you're

  • following the wrong person.

  • That's right.

  • But, the shout outs, just the––not the shout outs, the shout downs.

  • What hurt me, I think, the most with how many people said, one person said, "You're a spiritual

  • columnist.

  • Your work has changed my life.

  • Why are you weighing into politics?"

  • I'm like, "Did you read my books?

  • How did I change your life without you seeing me?"

  • Yes.

  • I'm so happy we're talking about this because I, as well, I had posted a just an image of

  • Dr. Ford.

  • Just saying, "I believe you."

  • Because that is the truth.

  • That's how I felt.

  • And similarly, first of all, I think it's interesting that you talk to Steve about it.

  • I actually did not talk with Josh before I posted, and I did a lot of commenting, frankly,

  • when I was buying shoes.

  • I don't shop very often.

  • But Josh was working on a role, and I needed to give him some space.

  • So, I was like, "You know what?

  • I'm going to go shoe shopping, because I'm going to go see J.Lo."

  • That's when everything kind of went down.

  • And I was like, "Wow."

  • Similarly, people were like, "That's it.

  • I'm unfollowing you."

  • I'm like, "How did you not know who I...

  • How did you've been following me and not really get who I am?"

  • It's fascinating.

  • I know that this conversation is going to be extremely valuable for our listeners.

  • Because a lot of folks, frankly, they don't get to hear someone like you talk about this

  • side of it very often.

  • So, I just want to thank you for being transparent, because it's not easy.

  • And I also–– It hurts, it's real.

  • The reason I have to talk to Steve about it is the bandwidth it takes for me sometimes

  • to not go under is tremendous.

  • I've been sick.

  • I'm just now getting over being sick for like two weeks.

  • They thought that I had mono, then strep throat, and now they realize I have a sinus infection.

  • But I just felt like just terrible.

  • And I'm not a good sick person.

  • So, all this on top of it.

  • It's not that I go under.

  • It's like when I drive on the freeway.

  • It's like if I keep going straight on 59, and someone pulls off on 610 because they're

  • headed a different way, no one's lean out of their fucking car screaming, "I'm not following

  • you anymore."

  • They're just turning off.

  • Good.

  • I don't need the announcement that you're unfollowing me.

  • Unfollow me.

  • That's not what takes the bandwidth.

  • Sometimes I think these posts are great filters.

  • What takes the bandwidth for me is my grief about the state that the world is in, and

  • that people use my work to be brave and speak their truth, and then punish me for doing

  • the same, and it's almost all women.

  • That's what makes me sick.

  • Because let me tell you, for sure.

  • I think I actually don't read comments anymore, but I did read a comment when I posted about

  • the family separation stuff at the border.

  • Yes.

  • And people saying, "They deserve it.

  • They brought their kids.

  • They knew the risks."

  • Finally, I just said, "Look, here's the thing,”––this is how I feel about all the social justice

  • work that I do, and that I have done for 30 years––”I hope to God, you're never

  • faced with a situation where you have to escape violence or persecution with your children.

  • But if you do, and they're taken away from you at the border, no matter how shitty you

  • are me on my social media, I will be there screaming and fighting for your rights too.

  • I'll be pissed, but I will be there.

  • So, don't suck what you need out of my work, and leave some vague memory of who I am behind,

  • and then be pissed off when I'm myself."

  • Amen.

  • Miss Brené Brown.

  • I'm just going to clap.

  • I'm by myself in my studio, but I am clapping.

  • I know there are a lot of people listening right now who are clapping.

  • I ran into some guy in Adorama.

  • He's like, "What's your podcast?"

  • And I told him.

  • So, I hope hey, Mr. Dude from Adorama, you're listening to this too.

  • Brené, I love you.

  • Okay.

  • Only two more question before we wrap up.

  • As a CEO and founder, how has this research impacted the way that you lead your team?

  • Every day.

  • It's changed everything.

  • It's changed...

  • I think one of the two findings that I write about in the book, and I tried to write the

  • book like a playbook.

  • We even have a downloadable glossary and key terms, because we bolded key terms and words

  • and hacks in the book.

  • But two of the things that changed that I'm more mindful now of.

  • One is that you must care for and be connected to the people you lead.

  • That is an irreducible need.

  • This idea from the old command and control type of leadership where I don't have to like

  • you, I don't have to respect you, I don't have to do anything like that, I just need

  • to lead you and be fair, that's bullshit.

  • You have to care for and be connected with the people you lead, period.

  • And so, one on one time with everyone.

  • because the people I lead are all the senior leaders that run the business.

  • I have to and I want to be connected heart to heart, human to human.

  • The second thing that was really...

  • God, if you don't hear anything but this, hear this.

  • We must invest a reasonable amount of time attending to people's fears and their feelings,

  • or squander an unreasonable amount of time dealing with problematic behaviors.

  • [c]People don't want to talk about fear and feelings at work.

  • But when there's massive change and churn and things are hard, we have to stop and make

  • time, even if we're just busy as hell, to attend to people's fears and feelings.

  • Let me check in with you.

  • And then one of my favorite lines, and you can use this anywhere in your life, is what

  • does support look like right now?

  • What does support look like right now?

  • Yeah.

  • Not, hey, can I help you?

  • I've got a friend who's got a very sick parent.

  • That whole, "If there's anything I can do, let me know."

  • No one is going to come back and say, "There are things you can do."

  • Very few of us are going to do that.

  • But if you say, "Hey, what does support look like right now?"

  • And I actually texted her that and she just texted back this morning.

  • Just stay open for the rants and screams and cussing and yelling, because I'm in so much

  • grief and pain right now.

  • I'm like, "I'm here, text, in person, whatever you need."

  • Genius.

  • What does support look like right now?

  • Even if we're letting someone go, we will say.

  • We try to do what, we write about in the book.

  • We try to do it with dignity.

  • Can we let them resign instead of being fired?

  • What's the maximum financial thing that we can do even if it's a little uncomfortable

  • for us to make sure they have some lead time to recover, get back out there?

  • And then even ask, "What does support look like from us right now?

  • Would you like to come back and say goodbye to everyone?"

  • What does support look like?

  • It also gives other people the responsibility of asking for what they need, instead of not

  • asking and then being resentful because they don't get it.

  • Yes, genius.

  • I'm taking notes, mama.

  • I'm taking notes.

  • I got all my notes in the book, and I'm still taking notes on my notes right now.

  • Tell us about the other incredible things about this book that you want to make sure

  • people know.

  • Oh, yeah, I'm so excited about this part.

  • We have built a Dare to Lead hub on brenebrown.com where you can take a free daring leadership

  • assessment, you can email yourself or print the results.

  • We're starting a global read-along of the book on October 12th on LinkedIn.

  • So, you can go to my LinkedIn page, and we're going to take a chapter a week right before

  • Thanksgiving, I think November 19th.

  • We're going to take your questions and I'm going to answer them on video.

  • There's also a way to learn about our daring leadership facilitator program.

  • Just a bunch of different ways to engage with Dear to Lead.

  • So, check it out at brenebrown.com and just click on where it says, Dare to Lead hub.

  • Yay.

  • I can't wait.

  • I'm going to be there.

  • I want to follow along with all of this.

  • I love this book so much.

  • It's so great that you're giving people other ways to engage.

  • I think one of the challenges, and thank you, by the way, you're actually giving me all

  • these great ideas.

  • Because you spend so much time writing a book, you don't want folks to just read it and go,

  • "Oh, well, that was a great idea."

  • We want them to build skills and really use this and embed it, so it becomes part of their

  • life.

  • So, thank you for creating these incredible resources and mentioning it.

  • Everyone listening, make sure you go brenebrown.com, follow her.

  • You'll get all the information for the hub, the assessment, the global read-along.

  • It's going to be incredible.

  • [d]As we wrap, well, first of all, I want to say this.

  • I said this in our last interview, and I will say it again.

  • My friend, you truly are a national treasure.

  • I feel that with every cell in my body.

  • I adore you so much.

  • I'm wondering, one of the things that––a gajillion things––that you do so brilliantly

  • is your ending to your books.

  • I always get goosebumps at the end to your book.

  • So, I'm curious if you would be willing to read the last few lines of your book as we

  • wrap up this conversation.

  • I would love to, and thank you so much.

  • Thank you for being so brave with your life, Marie.

  • It matters, and it matters to a lot of people who probably don't know you.

  • I know you up close, and it matters to me all the time.

  • Because courage is contagious.

  • Yes, it is, mama.

  • And it's figureoutable.

  • And it's figureoutable.

  • Okay.

  • Last paragraph of the book.

  • As you think about your own path to daring leadership, remember Joseph Campbell's wisdom.

  • The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek.

  • Own the fear, find the cave, and write a new ending for yourself, for the people you're

  • meant to serve and support, and for your culture.

  • Choose courage over comfort, choose whole hearts over armor, and choose the great adventure

  • being brave and afraid, at the exact same time.

  • Yes, I love it so much.

  • I love you.

  • Congratulations on this book.

  • For everyone listening, go get multiple copies of Dare to Lead.

  • You will not want to put it down.

  • You will want to have everyone that you love, that you work with, that you live with read

  • this book because it is filled with actionable tools and practices, and all of the different

  • things that we need as humans to be our bravest and our most courageous.

  • Brené Brown, you are a gem.

  • Thank you so very much.

  • And for everyone listening, thanks for being here on the Marie Forleo Podcast.

  • Thank you, Marie.

  • Now, Brené and I would love to hear from you.

  • We talked about a lot of different things today.

  • And I'm curious, what is the insight that really resonated with you the most, and how

  • can you put that insight into action starting right now?

  • Now the best conversations happen after––even podcasts––over at marieforleo.com so head

  • on over there and leave a comment now.

  • While you're there, be sure to sign up for our email list and become an MF insider.

  • You'll get instant access to an audio I created called How to Get Anything You Want.

  • Plus, you'll get some exclusive content, special giveaways, and some insights from me that

  • frankly, I don't share anywhere else.

  • So, stay on your game and keep going for your dreams, because the world needs that very

  • special gift that only you have.

  • Thank you so much for listening today.

  • I'll catch you next time on the Marie Forleo Podcast.

In this episode of MarieTV, we do have some adult language, so if you have a little ones

Subtitles and vocabulary

Click the word to look it up Click the word to find further inforamtion about it