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  • J: So, I'm going to teach you how to say 'hello lovely people,'

  • J: which is how I start my videos. A: OK... OK.

  • J: So you go "Hello,"

  • J: and then "lovely" A: "Lovely"?

  • J: "People" A: "People..."

  • A: Did I do it? J: Yes.

  • A: Hello... J: Hello, lovely people

  • A: I messed up! There's too much pressure! OK.

  • J: Hello, lovely people.

  • A: I did it! Both: Yay!

  • J: I am joined by the amazing Ash Hardell

  • who has been one of my faves for a while

  • A: Ohh, likewise!

  • J: So I'm fangirling a bit inside A: I'm fanpersoning

  • A: A lot! It's mutual.

  • J: Also, you have some of the best eyebrows I've ever seen.

  • A: I don't do anything to 'em!

  • J: And we're gonna talk today about

  • people not being too afraid to talk to us.

  • J: People are so afraid that they'll say the wrong things

  • about disabilities, deafness,

  • and trans issues

  • that they just don't say anything

  • A: It's an issue J: And so we're gonna try and help

  • J: And be like, "Here's something you could say instead, maybe?"

  • A: Yeah!

  • A: And hopefully build your confidence a little bit J: Yes.

  • And make it seem less scary to talk to us, 'cause I really like questions

  • A: Even if there're some faux pas in the questions.

  • A: I like curiosity, I like questions, and I

  • I like those way more than, like, uncomfortable avoidance

  • A: That's what makes me uncomfortable.

  • I'd rather have you ask your awkward question, than just--

  • I'm not silly, I can pick up on when you're like

  • 'Ooo, you freak me out, I'm just gonna walk away!'

  • Also! I don't know everything

  • about deafness and disability, so I might accidentally,

  • like, make a mistake in this video

  • J: No, and I know like this--everything I know about trans issues comes from your videos.

  • J: And Chase A: Yeah, and if you mess up, I'm gonna expose you

  • and ruin your YouTube career, but...

  • I'm just kidding! No!

  • J: Thanks hun, thanks!

  • A: We're gonna extend each other some compassion J: Yes

  • A: and we've like set that as an expectation before entering this conversation.

  • J: Yes.

  • J: I would rather someone had really good intentions

  • and wanted to say something nice to me, but accidentally used some bad words

  • Than if they are using incredibly, wonderfully PC language,

  • and they're just being a bit of a dick.

  • A: Yes, I... Have you ever heard of...there's political correctness and then there's emotional correctness.

  • J: Oo, no.

  • A: So, emotional correctness is kind of what you're just explaining.

  • It's just like having good intentions and like

  • tapping into the other person's humanity.

  • A: So, yeah, I also value emotional correctness over like

  • some asshole being 'politically correct'

  • J: The thing that comes up for me a lot is...it happens a lot with older people.

  • A: OK. J: The way that I dress is very old fashioned,

  • A: Sure! J: which older people like, a lot.

  • A: OK. J: So they love to come over and talk to me about it...

  • It's really heartbreaking when old men come over and they're like,

  • "You look just like my wife did."

  • A: Oohh, no!

  • J: "I lost her..." "Oh, sir!" A: Yeah!

  • J: Generally, people will come over and they'll say things along the lines of like...

  • "Oh, you're too beautiful to be in a wheelchair!" [drum rimshot]

  • And you're like, "..."

  • A: I'm having trouble even processing how those two things go together

  • J: Mmm. I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  • A: I'm actually at a loss for words for this

  • J: It's slightly similar to the, 'you're too beautiful to be gay...'

  • A: Right. J: But that's kind of more of an insult.

  • J: "You're too beautiful to be disabled," they think is a compliment.

  • A: Yeah, it's not a compliment, though... J: No.

  • A: If we strip out all the awkwardness

  • and just the parts that aren't great

  • what were they trying to communicate to you?

  • J: They're just trying to tell me that I'm pretty. A: OK!

  • J: In some way sympathise with the fact that I have a disability

  • J: So, the intention is just...

  • 'You look lovely! Having a disability must be hard, though.'

  • A: Right. J: So I try to hear that.

  • A: What's the right thing they should have said?

  • J: Maybe...just that I'm pretty? A: Yeah? Right? Yeah!

  • A: You could stop it there like...

  • J: Just a--just a...

  • A: "I like your dress!"

  • J: Or, equally, "It's a shame."

  • J: Hear that one a lot.

  • A: Not a shame, though!

  • J: So, like, "Aww, you're so beautiful! It's a shame about those crutches, though."

  • A: You could just leave that one off?

  • J: I mean, it's not a shame

  • J: because they help me to get somewhere! A: Right!

  • A: Do you ever take those moments and like...

  • make them teachable moments?

  • J: No. Never. A: Hahaha!

  • J: I know! Do you feel like I should?

  • A: Um - oh, I think that's totally up to you.

  • I don't wanna give anybody a responsibility, like,

  • "You are responsible to teach these people who clearly don't know how to speak"

  • A: That's like a thing that

  • A: I am kind of trying to navigate right now. J: OK

  • A: When someone says something to me

  • that isn't great, I'm trying to speak up more

  • and kind of make it a teachable moment

  • because....

  • for a few reasons:

  • A: 1. I'm just getting tired of like letting it happen

  • 2. Maybe they can learn something

  • A: Maybe they'll walk away from it better

  • J: And then the next non-binary person that they meet, they'll not say that

  • A: Right

  • [Jessica's voice]

  • A: I want to acknowledge that

  • A: not everyone has the energy to educate and teach. J: Yes.

  • A: So, if you don't want to,

  • that's totally on you and you don't have to do it!

  • J: What are the comments that you get quite often?

  • A: So for like...top surgery,

  • I get, like, "Why would you wanna do that to yourself?"

  • A: What I think they're asking, if I'm being nice, is like...

  • 'I've never met anyone like this before, and I don't quite understand it...

  • Would you help me understand why you feel this way?'

  • J: They're trying to be nice by going, 'But you're lovely just the way you are, dear.'

  • A: Yeah. Uh huh. And then they don't realise that

  • when they say that, it, y'know, pressures me into doing something I don't wanna do

  • and they're kind of taking away agency of my body.

  • [Jessica's voice]

  • A: Just because it doesn't make sense for you

  • for me to get top surgery doesn't mean I'm not allowed to do it.

  • This is my body!

  • J: And they're potentially not connecting that this part of your body

  • has to do with your mental health.

  • A: Yeah, they definitely view it as like cosmetic,

  • when it's not.

  • A: So, when I tell people who I am,

  • or when they ask a question and then I kind of have to out myself as non-binary,

  • I get a lot of

  • "Oh, I just don't get that. I just--I don't... I just don't."

  • A: It becomes apparent that

  • it's too much for them; they're uncomfortable, and they kind of wanna just move on.

  • J: People are rude.

  • A: Yeah...

  • A: Yeah.

  • J: But then do you also get-- [laughing]

  • do you also get people who have absolutely the best intentions,

  • but are a bit like, "Um...'she,' 'her,' 'they,' er, 'he,' er..."?

  • A: I'm cis-passing.

  • A: So, 'cis-passing' means, like...

  • It just means like not visibly trans.

  • A: So, the only time that somebody, like, makes a mistake

  • is when we're actually having a conversation about being non-binary.

  • J: Oh, OK.

  • A: Nobody just comes up to me and says, like, "You look androgynous, what's that about?"

  • A: Or anything like that...

  • [Jessica's voice]

  • J: When I was...first got really ill, when I was seventeen,

  • and a few weeks after I got diagnosed,

  • I went to a fair,

  • and I went to go and use the toilet

  • J: I don't need to qualify that...

  • J: I'm allowed to use the disabled toilets. A: Yeah.

  • J: And I came out and there was a lady standing there with children.

  • And she went, "Ugh!"

  • "Not disabled OR with children, then?!"

  • J: And it just like cut me to my core.

  • A: Sure. Mmhm.

  • J: I think I just like

  • cried and walked away.

  • It sounds weird but I kind of hope someone does that again to me one day.

  • A: Yeah, yeah, yeah! What would you say? J: So I can be like, "Well, actually...!"

  • "I have an invisible disability; it's like this, this, and this..."

  • "Did you know there are a variety of people who have a variety of conditions that may need to use this toilet?"

  • "It isn't always immediately obvious."

  • "You shouldn't be teaching your children to be so prejudiced."

  • A: Yeah!

  • A: Actually, though, that's what I was saying when I was trying to talk about those teachable moments.

  • A: They're scary, right?

  • A: Because you're, like--you feel horrible. That person just ripped you down.

  • Now that I'm a little bit of a stronger person

  • and I've been dealing with some like transphobic things more and more.

  • I feel like I have a thicker skin.

  • A: And I'm trying to take those moments, and be brave and be like,

  • "Well...meow, meow, meow, meow, meow."

  • That way they can learn and grow and be different

  • And I think that if anybody has the strength to do that, it makes a difference and they should.

  • J: You obviously have that a lot on the internet, as well.

  • A: Yeah.

  • J: So, the other day, I made this video about LGBTQ+ Sign Language.

  • British Sign Language.

  • And then I made some GIFs from it and then I put it on Twitter

  • A: Right.

  • J: And oh, my God! I had included gender non-binary

  • J: and just the hate... A: Yeah.

  • J: that that got!

  • J: I got so, so upset that people think they can come in

  • and take away someone's identity

  • and try and invalidate a part of someone.

  • A: If you've never talked about non-binary things on your channel before - have you?

  • J: No. A: OK, well...

  • J: This video's gonna be fun.

  • A: It can be hit or miss

  • when I collab with someone before who's never talked about these things on their channel.

  • A: It's really hard to know

  • how your audience feels about it if you've never kind of

  • dipped your toes in the waters before.

  • A: So, you might get some hate in the comments.

  • A lot of people might not think I'm real - hey, how's it going?

  • A: I am real. I know you don't think I'm real. I see you, but...

  • but this makes me happy and it's just my truth, so...I don't know what to tell ya.

  • So hopefully your audience is open...

  • J: My people are lovely people.

  • J: It's just the random others A: Uh huh. On Twitter?

  • J: who I feel like search the internet for things that make them angry.

  • A: OK.

  • J: I think there must be people who do that, right? A: Yes!

  • A: For sure. Oh, yeah.

  • A: There are whole channels devoted to making video responses;

  • ripping apart people like me. Did you know that? J: Yes.

  • A: Yeah. You--OK, yeah, of course. Yeah.

  • A: Angry looking for things to be more angry about so they can make money off being angry...

  • J: I don't think any of us have the right to go into someone else's space and make them unhappy, really.

  • To take a part of someone and say, "Oh, I know you think you feel this way, but...I don't think so."

  • A: Yeah, "I don't think you feel this way" - what? J: I think it's about... It's you...

  • A: I agree. I'm with ya.

  • A: Yeah. At this point I've just decided kind of to live and let live

  • They're gonna keep existing and...so am I!

  • J: Well, you should, 'cause you're awesome. A: Aw, thank you!

  • J: We should move on to some actually good advice

  • for people who do want to say the right thing

  • and they just get scared about it.

  • A: Yeah.

  • A: I think it's a really neat show of vulnerability when you just admit that you don't know much

  • make it clear how much you do know, so if somebody wanted to learn about non-binary identities,

  • A: I would appreciate it if they came up to me and were like...

  • "Hey, um...

  • I don't really know much about this."

  • J: Yeah.

  • "But I would like to..."

  • A: Ask if I would consent to have a conversation about it. J: Sure, sure.

  • A: 'Cause I don't always--I'm not always in the mood; it can be heavy

  • Just, like, kindly ask a question directly.

  • "What are your pronouns?"

  • "Hi, I'm Ben, and my pronouns are he/him. What are your pronouns?"

  • You can set it up with yourself first

  • That way it's not super othering, just like, "What are your pronouns? You're clearly--you're clearly different."

  • [Jessica's voice]

  • A: If you have a question, I can tell.

  • I can always tell. I can read it in your face.

  • A: I can tell you want to ask something; I can tell you don't get something,

  • and that makes me uncomfortable

  • So, if you have a question, you should just ask it!

  • A: "I'm wondering about something. Would it be all right if I asked you a question?"

  • And then I'll tell you yes or no.

  • A: [To Jessica] What about you?

  • J: I would just want people to not be scared

  • But also to say more like, "How can I help?"

  • J: "How can I be useful?" A: Sure!

  • J: So, in terms of like with lip-reading,

  • because I am deaf and I rely on lip-reading

  • A: Right. J: because most people around me don't sign,

  • J: so I'm good at lip-reading.

  • J: So, if you meet me and I'm like, "Oh, I'm deaf, actually,"

  • just be like, "Oh, OK.. Is there anything I can do to help

  • make this conversation a bit easier?"

  • A: Oh! Awesome.

  • J: And I'll be like, "Yeah, could you actually just twist a bit so the light's right here

  • and I can see you better?"

  • Or, if I'm in my wheelchair, again, just...you know...

  • If we're like going somewhere and I'm in my wheelchair,

  • people sometimes get awkward about doors

  • A: Sure!

  • "Oh, no, I've come to the door...

  • with a disabled person next to me..."

  • [Mimics a confused, deliberating person]

  • J: "I don't wanna take away their agency" A: Again!

  • J: "and open the door for them..."

  • "But, then, I'm not opening the door for a disabled person."

  • A: See! It's this--it's this look.

  • A: That's what I'm talking about! It's this look.

  • A: We can tell...

  • Like, you're uncomfortable.

  • You have a question.

  • A: You don't know how to navigate whatever situation you're in.

  • J: 'Cause I also have a lot of energy problems,

  • I get really floppy.

  • A: OK.

  • J: And I get this--we call it rag doll.

  • J: Where I just--I literally become a rag doll. A: Uh huh.

  • J: And I can't hold myself up any more... A: Uh huh.

  • J: And I think it probably looks like I'm drunk.

  • J: We went out to dinner the other night. A: Uh huh.

  • J: With our little gang.

  • And about - I don't know - how far through?

  • J: Two thirds of the way through?

  • I just lost it.

  • J: I just couldn't. A: Sure. You rag-dolled it up.

  • J: I don't even remember what happened.

  • J: I just remember being like, "I'm really tired."

  • And then I was like, "I'm lying down."

  • J: I don't know, I think I fell asleep.

  • Or did I? Did I fall asleep?

  • J: Yes. There are nods.

  • So I fell asleep in a restaurant

  • J: (which happens) A: Mmhm.

  • J: And everyone else around me had had like one drink...

  • J: So they all seemed very sober. A: Uh huh.

  • J: And I'm sure I looked kind of ridiculous.

  • J: And I'm sure they probably gave me some weird looks. A: Right.

  • J: It's probably better to just be like, "Is she OK?" A: Yeah! [Laughing]

  • J: "Can I open this door for you?"

  • Claudia: I think they think I dosed you up on rohypnol or something.

  • J: If you can't hear that, Claudia says

  • she thinks people might occasionally assume she's drugged me.

  • J: In which case...why are they not stepping in?! A: Yeah!

  • A: No, yeah, so what's happening in that situation is they're, like, concerned.

  • So rather than just like staring and judging...

  • They should just express their concern.

  • A: Just like you said: J: Yes.

  • A: "Are you OK? Is everything OK?"

  • J: "Can I help?" A: "Yeah, it is? Great!"

  • J: So, I think our take-away here -

  • the most important thing is just that it's OK to ask questions.

  • A: Mmhm. Otherwise, we feel scary and different.

  • J: Well, we have also - well, we haven't... -

  • A: We're going to!

  • J: We're going to film a video for Ash's channel, which is going to be

  • very different!

  • A: [Sing-song voice] A makeover! I'm gonna be turned into a...

  • gender-normative lady!

  • J: So, make sure you watch that.

  • J: The link will be down below in the description

  • as well as the links to all of Ash's social media,

  • where you can go and follow them being adorable all the time.

  • A: Awww, thank you!

  • J: Thank you very much for joining me on my channel.

  • A: It was my pleasure.

  • J: Aww!

  • J: Bye, bye, everyone! Mwah!

J: So, I'm going to teach you how to say 'hello lovely people,'

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