WITH CHRIS MATTHEWS. >>> THE WHISTLEBLOWER VERSUS THE

>>> THE WHISTLEBLOWER VERSUS THE TWEETER.

TWEETER. LET’S PLAY HARDBALL.

LET’S PLAY HARDBALL. GOOD EVENING, I’M CHRIS MATTHEWS

GOOD EVENING, I’M CHRIS MATTHEWS IN WASHINGTON.

IN WASHINGTON. FOR TEN DAYS NOW RUNNING IN FACT

FOR TEN DAYS NOW RUNNING IN FACT THIS PRESIDENT HAS ATTACKED AND

THIS PRESIDENT HAS ATTACKED AND ATTACKED THE WHISTLEBLOWER WHO

ATTACKED THE WHISTLEBLOWER WHO DARED TELL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE

DARED TELL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHAT TRUMP WAS UP TO IN TRADING

WHAT TRUMP WAS UP TO IN TRADING U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY FOR

U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY FOR SOMETHING HE COULD USE AGAINST

SOMETHING HE COULD USE AGAINST HIS POLITICAL RIVALS.

HIS POLITICAL RIVALS. IT IS ALL ABOUT TRUMP TRYING TO

IT IS ALL ABOUT TRUMP TRYING TO HIDE HIS WRONGDOING NOW BY

HIDE HIS WRONGDOING NOW BY MAKING THIS ABOUT HOW HE WAS

MAKING THIS ABOUT HOW HE WAS CAUGHT IN THE WRONGDOING.

CAUGHT IN THE WRONGDOING. UNABLE TO JUSTIFY HIS BETRAYAL

UNABLE TO JUSTIFY HIS BETRAYAL TRUMP’S ATTACKING THE MESSENGER

TRUMP’S ATTACKING THE MESSENGER OF COURSE.

OF COURSE. LIKE A BOSS IN THE RACKETS HE

LIKE A BOSS IN THE RACKETS HE CALLS THE WHISTLEBLOWER’S

CALLS THE WHISTLEBLOWER’S SOURCES SPIES AND OBSESSES ABOUT

SOURCES SPIES AND OBSESSES ABOUT FINDING OUT THE PERSON EMPHASIS

FINDING OUT THE PERSON EMPHASIS TRUE IDENTITY WHICH THE LAW SAYS

TRUE IDENTITY WHICH THE LAW SAYS SHOULD BE PROTECTED.

SHOULD BE PROTECTED. TRUMP TODAY TWEETED WHY AREN’T

TRUMP TODAY TWEETED WHY AREN’T WE ENTITLED TO LEARN ININTERVIEW

WE ENTITLED TO LEARN ININTERVIEW THE WHISTLEBLOWER AND ALSO THE

THE WHISTLEBLOWER AND ALSO THE PERSON WHO GAVE FALSE

PERSON WHO GAVE FALSE INFORMATION TO HIM.

INFORMATION TO HIM. TRUMP IS CAUGHT AND REFUSES TO

TRUMP IS CAUGHT AND REFUSES TO ADMIT.

ADMIT. THE FAKE WHISTLEBLOWER HE

THE FAKE WHISTLEBLOWER HE TWEETS, ISN’T HOLDING UP AND

TWEETS, ISN’T HOLDING UP AND SAYS HE OR SHE ISN’T A

SAYS HE OR SHE ISN’T A WHISTLEBLOWER AFTER ALL.

WHISTLEBLOWER AFTER ALL. WELL, IT’S ALL ABOUT PART OF

WELL, IT’S ALL ABOUT PART OF WHAT "THE WASHINGTON POST"

WHAT "THE WASHINGTON POST" CHARACTERIZED AS AN INCREASINGLY

CHARACTERIZED AS AN INCREASINGLY FRENETIC COUNTER ASSAULT

FRENETIC COUNTER ASSAULT TARGETING THE ANONYMOUS

TARGETING THE ANONYMOUS INTELLIGENCE OFFICER.

INTELLIGENCE OFFICER. TRUMP’S STRATEGY, HOWEVER,

TRUMP’S STRATEGY, HOWEVER, IGNORES THE FACT THE

IGNORES THE FACT THE WHISTLEBLOWER’S COMPLAINT IS NOW

WHISTLEBLOWER’S COMPLAINT IS NOW BESIDE THE POINT BECAUSE TRUMP’S

BESIDE THE POINT BECAUSE TRUMP’S WRONGDOING IS ALREADY

WRONGDOING IS ALREADY ESTABLISHED, WELL-ESTABLISHED BY

ESTABLISHED, WELL-ESTABLISHED BY THE WHITE HOUSE SUMMARY OF HIS

THE WHITE HOUSE SUMMARY OF HIS CALL WITH UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT

CALL WITH UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT ZELENSKY.

ZELENSKY. RESPONDING TO THE PRESIDENT’S

RESPONDING TO THE PRESIDENT’S ATTACKS ON THE WHISTLEBLOWER

ATTACKS ON THE WHISTLEBLOWER DEMOCRATIC SENATOR MARK WARNER

DEMOCRATIC SENATOR MARK WARNER OF THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE

OF THE SENATE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE SAID THAT KIND OF

COMMITTEE SAID THAT KIND OF RHETORIC CAN ONLY SERVE ONE

RHETORIC CAN ONLY SERVE ONE PURPOSE, INTIMIDATION OF THIS

PURPOSE, INTIMIDATION OF THIS WHISTLEBLOWER.

WHISTLEBLOWER. AND WHILE HE DIDN’T MENTION

AND WHILE HE DIDN’T MENTION TRUMP BY NAME REPUBLICAN SENATOR

TRUMP BY NAME REPUBLICAN SENATOR CHUCK GRASSLY OF INDIANA -- OR

CHUCK GRASSLY OF INDIANA -- OR IOWA RATHER -- SAYS THIS PERSON

IOWA RATHER -- SAYS THIS PERSON APPEARED TO HAVE FOLLOWED THE

APPEARED TO HAVE FOLLOWED THE WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTION LAWS

WHISTLEBLOWER PROTECTION LAWS AND OUGHT TO BE HEARD OUT AND

AND OUGHT TO BE HEARD OUT AND PROTECTED.

PROTECTED. THAT’S FROM ONE OF THE TOP

THAT’S FROM ONE OF THE TOP REPUBLICAN SENATORS.

REPUBLICAN SENATORS. I’M JOINED NOW BY NED PRICE, A

I’M JOINED NOW BY NED PRICE, A FORMER NSC SENIOR DIRECTOR,

FORMER NSC SENIOR DIRECTOR, VALERY, A FORMER CIA OPERATIVE

VALERY, A FORMER CIA OPERATIVE OFFICER AND CURRENT DEMOCRATIC

OFFICER AND CURRENT DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE FOR CONGRESS IN NEW

CANDIDATE FOR CONGRESS IN NEW MEXICO.

MEXICO. THANK YOU FOR COMING ON TONIGHT

THANK YOU FOR COMING ON TONIGHT AND I’M SO SORRY ABOUT YOUR

AND I’M SO SORRY ABOUT YOUR EX-HUSBAND, THE MAN WHO’S THE

EX-HUSBAND, THE MAN WHO’S THE FATHER OF YOUR CHILDREN.

FATHER OF YOUR CHILDREN. >> THANK YOU SO MUCH, CHRIS.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, CHRIS. I KNOW JOE WATCHED YOU EVERY

I KNOW JOE WATCHED YOU EVERY NIGHT AND OF COURSE YOU WERE

NIGHT AND OF COURSE YOU WERE ENON THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE

ENON THE VERY BEGINNING OF THE STORY BACK IN 2003 WHEN MY CIA

STORY BACK IN 2003 WHEN MY CIA COVERT IDENTITY WAS BETRAYED.

COVERT IDENTITY WAS BETRAYED. I REMEMBER COMING INTO THE ROOM

I REMEMBER COMING INTO THE ROOM AND JOE HANGING UP THE PHONE AND

AND JOE HANGING UP THE PHONE AND SAYING CHRIS MATTHEWS JUST SAID

SAYING CHRIS MATTHEWS JUST SAID THE WHITE HOUSE CALLED YOU FAIR

THE WHITE HOUSE CALLED YOU FAIR GAME, SO OUR FAMILY IS

GAME, SO OUR FAMILY IS DEVASTATED.

DEVASTATED. AND WE’VE LOST NOT JUST, YOU

AND WE’VE LOST NOT JUST, YOU KNOW, FROM A PERSONAL SIDE FROM

KNOW, FROM A PERSONAL SIDE FROM A TRUE AMERICAN HERO.

A TRUE AMERICAN HERO. >> THANKS FOR COMING ON THIS

>> THANKS FOR COMING ON THIS TIME AND ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF

TIME AND ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF THE NEWS NOW, AND THE NEWS IS

THE NEWS NOW, AND THE NEWS IS ABOUT A WHISTLEBLOWER WHO THIS

ABOUT A WHISTLEBLOWER WHO THIS PRESIDENT SEEMS TO TRY TO DIM

PRESIDENT SEEMS TO TRY TO DIM DIMUINIZE AND WHAT’S IT LIKE TO

DIMUINIZE AND WHAT’S IT LIKE TO BE PART OF THAT TARGETING?

BE PART OF THAT TARGETING? >> I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THAT

>> I KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THAT FEELS LIKE.

FEELS LIKE. I COMPARE IT TO FALLING DOWN

I COMPARE IT TO FALLING DOWN ALICE’S RABBIT HOLE WHERE WHITE

ALICE’S RABBIT HOLE WHERE WHITE IS BLACK AND BLACK IS WHITE.

IS BLACK AND BLACK IS WHITE. THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO US.

THE SAME THING HAPPENED TO US. THE BUSH WHITE HOUSE TRIED TO

THE BUSH WHITE HOUSE TRIED TO DEMONIZE US AND MAKE IT ABOUT

DEMONIZE US AND MAKE IT ABOUT VALERIE PLAIN AND JOE WILSON AND

VALERIE PLAIN AND JOE WILSON AND WHY THERE’S NO WMD IN IRAQ.

WHY THERE’S NO WMD IN IRAQ. THIS IS WHAT’S HAPPENING WITH

THIS IS WHAT’S HAPPENING WITH TRUMP’S WHISTLEBLOWER.

TRUMP’S WHISTLEBLOWER. IT’S ALREADY BEEN CONFIRMED HIS

IT’S ALREADY BEEN CONFIRMED HIS WRONGDOING, HIS THREAT TO

WRONGDOING, HIS THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY.

NATIONAL SECURITY. SO HE’S SEEKING TO UNDERMINE THE

SO HE’S SEEKING TO UNDERMINE THE WHISTLEBLOWER WHICH ENSHRINED IN

WHISTLEBLOWER WHICH ENSHRINED IN LAW SHOULD BE PROTECTED.

LAW SHOULD BE PROTECTED. BECAUSE WHAT DOES A

BECAUSE WHAT DOES A WHISTLEBLOWER DO?

WHISTLEBLOWER DO? THEY’RE SEEKING TO EXPOSE

THEY’RE SEEKING TO EXPOSE WRONGDOING, WROUGHT CORRUPTION,

WRONGDOING, WROUGHT CORRUPTION, SO TRUMP IS A MASTER AT THIS AND

SO TRUMP IS A MASTER AT THIS AND HE’LL CONTINUE DO SO.

HE’LL CONTINUE DO SO. I THINK HE’S CAUGHT THIS TIME.

I THINK HE’S CAUGHT THIS TIME. >> THIS STRATEGY OF THE

>> THIS STRATEGY OF THE PRESIDENT, HE DOES SEEM CAUGHT

PRESIDENT, HE DOES SEEM CAUGHT THIS TIME.

THIS TIME. HE’S NOT REALLY CHALLENGING WHAT

HE’S NOT REALLY CHALLENGING WHAT HE SAID, HE WEAKLY DEFENDS WHAT

HE SAID, HE WEAKLY DEFENDS WHAT HE SAYS FOR PARTISAN POLITICAL

HE SAYS FOR PARTISAN POLITICAL GAIN, USING U.S. FOREIGN

GAIN, USING U.S. FOREIGN MILITARY ASSISTANCE AS HIS

MILITARY ASSISTANCE AS HIS LEVER.

LEVER. BUT NOW HE’S GOING AFTER WHO’S

BUT NOW HE’S GOING AFTER WHO’S HE’S TREATING LIKE A RAT OR

HE’S TREATING LIKE A RAT OR FAKE.

FAKE. >> IT’S ATTACKING THE FBI FOR

>> IT’S ATTACKING THE FBI FOR DOING ITS JOB AND

DOING ITS JOB AND INVESTIGATION --

INVESTIGATION -- >> OH, SPYING ON HIM, THAT’S A

>> OH, SPYING ON HIM, THAT’S A NICE WORD.

NICE WORD. >> AND ATTACKING THE SPECIAL

>> AND ATTACKING THE SPECIAL COUNSEL DESPITE THE SPECIAL

COUNSEL DESPITE THE SPECIAL COUNSEL’S LONG RECORD OF

COUNSEL’S LONG RECORD OF DEDICATED PUBLIC SERVICE AND NOW

DEDICATED PUBLIC SERVICE AND NOW ATTACKING A WHISTLEBLOWER.

ATTACKING A WHISTLEBLOWER. THE FACTS WILL COME OUT.

THE FACTS WILL COME OUT. THERE’S A LOT THERE, AND IT’S

THERE’S A LOT THERE, AND IT’S INTERESTING YOU SEE HOW

INTERESTING YOU SEE HOW REPUBLICANS NOW, SOME OF THEM

REPUBLICANS NOW, SOME OF THEM STARTING TO CAUTION AGAINST

STARTING TO CAUTION AGAINST JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS.

JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS. BEN SASSE, THE SENATOR FROM

BEN SASSE, THE SENATOR FROM NEBRASKA SAID LOTS NOT CIRCLE

NEBRASKA SAID LOTS NOT CIRCLE THE WAGONS AROUND THE PRESIDENT

THE WAGONS AROUND THE PRESIDENT QUITE YET, LET’S GET THE FACTS.

QUITE YET, LET’S GET THE FACTS. AND I THINK YOU’RE SEEING THE

AND I THINK YOU’RE SEEING THE RIGHT RESPONSE FROM MANY

RIGHT RESPONSE FROM MANY REPUBLICANS FINALLY ON THE HILL

REPUBLICANS FINALLY ON THE HILL WHO WANT THE FACTS BEFORE

WHO WANT THE FACTS BEFORE RUSHING TO JUDGMENT.

RUSHING TO JUDGMENT. >> BACK TO THE POINT HERE IN THE

>> BACK TO THE POINT HERE IN THE BEGINNING WHICH WAS IN THE DAYS

BEGINNING WHICH WAS IN THE DAYS OF NIXON AND WATERGATE IT WAS,

OF NIXON AND WATERGATE IT WAS, YOU KNOW, JOHN DEAN SAID I

YOU KNOW, JOHN DEAN SAID I REMEMBER BECAUSE HE HAD A

REMEMBER BECAUSE HE HAD A PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY AND HE SAID

PHOTOGRAPHIC MEMORY AND HE SAID I REMEMBER ALL THESE THINGS

I REMEMBER ALL THESE THINGS NIXON SAID.

NIXON SAID. BUT WHEN WE GOT THE TAPES OF THE

BUT WHEN WE GOT THE TAPES OF THE JUNE 23rd PHONE CALL, THEY USED

JUNE 23rd PHONE CALL, THEY USED THE CIA TO COVER FOR THE FBI TO

THE CIA TO COVER FOR THE FBI TO GET THE FBI OFF THE CASE, IT WAS

GET THE FBI OFF THE CASE, IT WAS ESTABLISHED THAT DEAN WAS RIGHT.

ESTABLISHED THAT DEAN WAS RIGHT. THEN YOU MOVE ONTO THE TAPE.

THEN YOU MOVE ONTO THE TAPE. NOW WE HAVE THE WHITE HOUSE

NOW WE HAVE THE WHITE HOUSE RELEASED MEMO OF THE

RELEASED MEMO OF THE CONVERSATION WITH THE UKRAINIAN

CONVERSATION WITH THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT.

PRESIDENT. WE DON’T NEED THE WHISTLEBLOWER

WE DON’T NEED THE WHISTLEBLOWER AND NOW TRUMP IS CHASING AFTER

AND NOW TRUMP IS CHASING AFTER THIS WHISTLE MAN OR WOMAN.

THIS WHISTLE MAN OR WOMAN. IT’S SICK.

IT’S SICK. IT’S ALSO WEIRD BECAUSE THAT’S

IT’S ALSO WEIRD BECAUSE THAT’S NOT THE ISSUE ANYMORE, MR.

NOT THE ISSUE ANYMORE, MR. PRESIDENT.

PRESIDENT. >> WELL, JUNE 23rd BECOMES JULY

>> WELL, JUNE 23rd BECOMES JULY 25th.

25th. IT’S THE SAME DYNAMIC.

IT’S THE SAME DYNAMIC. I THINK WHAT WE’RE SEEING TRUMP

I THINK WHAT WE’RE SEEING TRUMP RECOGNIZE IS THIS SCANDAL, THIS

RECOGNIZE IS THIS SCANDAL, THIS BETRAYAL IS TOO BIG FOR HIM TO

BETRAYAL IS TOO BIG FOR HIM TO TAKE ON, SO HE HAS TO PER

TAKE ON, SO HE HAS TO PER SAWNIFY IT, BOIL IT DOWN TO A

SAWNIFY IT, BOIL IT DOWN TO A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, SOMEONE WHOSE

SINGLE INDIVIDUAL, SOMEONE WHOSE AFFILIATIONS HE CAN ATTACK,

AFFILIATIONS HE CAN ATTACK, SOMEONE HE CAN UNDERMINE JUST

SOMEONE HE CAN UNDERMINE JUST THE WAY HE DID WITH CHRISTOPHER

THE WAY HE DID WITH CHRISTOPHER STEELE, WITH BOB MUELLER, WITH

STEELE, WITH BOB MUELLER, WITH THE PROSECUTORS.

THE PROSECUTORS. WE ALL KNOW THIS IS NOT ABOUT A

WE ALL KNOW THIS IS NOT ABOUT A PERSON.

PERSON. THIS IS ABOUT OUR DEMOCRACY, OUR

THIS IS ABOUT OUR DEMOCRACY, OUR NATIONAL SECURITY.

NATIONAL SECURITY. IT’S ABOUT THE SANCTITY OF OUR

IT’S ABOUT THE SANCTITY OF OUR ELECTIONS.

ELECTIONS. >> YOU COULD TELL THIS FROM

>> YOU COULD TELL THIS FROM PERSONAL HISTORY, HE LOOKS FOR

PERSONAL HISTORY, HE LOOKS FOR WEAKNESS, THE FACT YOU HAD TO

WEAKNESS, THE FACT YOU HAD TO REMAIN IN YOUR ROLE WITH THE

REMAIN IN YOUR ROLE WITH THE CIA, THE FACT HE KNEW YOU WANTED

CIA, THE FACT HE KNEW YOU WANTED TO STAY AND DO YOUR JOB, HE

TO STAY AND DO YOUR JOB, HE PLAYED WITH THAT.

PLAYED WITH THAT. NOW TRUMP IS LIKE IF HE FINDS A

NOW TRUMP IS LIKE IF HE FINDS A WOMAN WHOSE LOOKS HE DOESN’T

WOMAN WHOSE LOOKS HE DOESN’T LIKE, HE ATTACKS HER LOOKS ON

LIKE, HE ATTACKS HER LOOKS ON TELEVISION.

TELEVISION. IF HE SEES A PERSON WITH A

IF HE SEES A PERSON WITH A PHYSICAL DISABILITY, HE ATTACKS

PHYSICAL DISABILITY, HE ATTACKS THEIR PHYSICAL DISABILITY.

THEIR PHYSICAL DISABILITY. IF HE SEES A PRESIDENT ON THE