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  • JUDY WOODRUFF: The Trump administration's policies on separation of families, migrant

  • children, border security and immigration have been some of the most controversial and

  • criticized policies throughout the president's tenure.

  • Former Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen was known for specifically executing

  • and defending those policies when she headed the department between December 2017 and April

  • of this year.

  • In a rare interview, she sat down this afternoon with our Amna Nawaz at the "Fortune" magazine

  • Most Powerful Women Summit here in Washington.

  • And Amna joins me now.

  • Hello.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Hi, Judy.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: So, you had a chance to talk to her.

  • Tell us more about the circumstances, Amna.

  • How did she happen to be at this event?

  • We were saying this is her first interview in many months.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: It is.

  • It's her first since leaving the administration, for sure.

  • When she resigned in April of this year, she basically sort of went silent.

  • We haven't really heard much from her then.

  • And, in truth, even when she was head of Homeland Security, she rarely gave interviews.

  • But this was a private summit.

  • People had to register and pay in advance to attend.

  • It wasn't open to the public.

  • It was hosted by "Fortune."

  • It's called Women in Power.

  • And, actually, her presence at the summit got a lot of outrage, basically because people

  • said she shouldn't be given a platform in such -- in this kind of environment to talk

  • about her policies.

  • Actually, people who were booked on the panels backed out because Nielsen was going to be

  • there, including filmmaker Dream Hampton, singer Brandi Carlile, even former Secretary

  • of State Hillary Clinton.

  • She cited a scheduling conflict, but a source close to her told reporters it was actually

  • because she didn't want to share the bill with Nielsen.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, there is a lot of controversy around what happened during her tenure.

  • And one of the things that got the most attention was the administration's policy of separating

  • families at the border, especially children.

  • You asked her about that.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: I did indeed.

  • Remember, in her role as the head of Homeland Security, she had to sign off on that policy

  • of separating children from their parents at the U.S. Southern border.

  • I asked her, knowing everything she knows now, looking back, does she regret making

  • that decision?

  • Here's what she had to tell me:

  • KIRSTJEN NIELSEN, Former U.S. Secretary of Homeland Security: I don't regret enforcing

  • the law, because I took an oath to do that, as did everybody at the Department of Homeland

  • Security.

  • We don't make the laws.

  • We asked Congress to change the law.

  • Congress reviewed the law in 2006, and decided to continue to make it illegal to cross in

  • that manner.

  • What I do wish had worked a lot better is that the coordination and information flow

  • were simply insufficient for that number of people coming.

  • It's heartbreaking that any family felt at any time that they had to cross the border

  • illegally, because this is a terrible, dangerous journey.

  • It's terrible.

  • So what I regret is that we haven't solved it.

  • And what I regret is that that information flow and coordination to quickly reunite the

  • families was clearly not in place, and that's why the practice was stopped through an executive

  • order.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Judy, I have to point out it's somewhat remarkable to hear her all these

  • many months later saying she doesn't regret the decision that is easily one of the most

  • controversial policies under the Trump administration we have seen so far.

  • You can see she stuck very close to the same talking points that she had back when she

  • was running the agency, that all they were doing was enforcing the law.

  • We have to continue to point out, there is no federal law that mandates the separation

  • of children from their parents at the border.

  • We know that this was done because of a DOJ policy change, saying everyone had to be prosecuted,

  • so Nielsen had to sign off on those families being separated.

  • And we also know thousands of children were separated as a result.

  • The authorities are still trying to figure out exactly how many and how to reunite them

  • all.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: Still trying to figure out how many.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: That's right.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: And separate from all this -- and you have been reporting on this -- are

  • the concerns that have since been raised about the effect that this separation has had on

  • these children.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: That's right.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: There's been a lot of research and looking into that.

  • And you talked to Secretary Nielsen about that.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: I did.

  • There's been a lot of scrutiny since the policy was ended, a lot of people called to testify

  • before Congress about what they knew and when they knew it.

  • We know officials on the HHS side -- that was responsible for the care and the custody

  • of those children -- said, we were raising red flags.

  • We knew this would be traumatic for children.

  • We didn't want them to do this.

  • We also know there were people within DHS, which was Nielsen's agency.

  • So I asked her, did any of those concerns reach you about the harm to children?

  • Here's what she had to say:

  • Did people ever specifically raise to you the concern that children would be traumatized

  • a result -- as a result of this policy?

  • KIRSTJEN NIELSEN: Not when I was -- not during that...

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • KIRSTJEN NIELSEN: No.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Not directly to you?

  • You never heard those concerns?

  • KIRSTJEN NIELSEN: Not from staff, no.

  • I mean, I think from the biggest...

  • AMNA NAWAZ: From child welfare experts, anyone outside the government?

  • KIRSTJEN NIELSEN: Yes, from the biggest -- from the biggest -- this was

  • nothing new, to be clear.

  • So, from a staff perspective, I think there was this belief that to not enforce the law

  • would encourage trafficking, would encourage child to be -- children to be used as pawns.

  • And the law enforcement officials had taken an oath, which is why the operational entities

  • recommended that we choose to enforce the law.

  • We never forced it 100 percent.

  • If you had two parents coming across, we chose specifically not to refer both parents, so

  • that one parent could stay with the children.

  • As I said, we did try to limit as much as possible any tender-age situation.

  • But it wasn't -- it clearly wasn't working.

  • So we stopped it during an executive order.

  • And we have been hopeful that Congress will look at this and really take very seriously,

  • what is the best way to do this?

  • I mean, the debate -- the debate is very false.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Judy, we know now, contrary to what Secretary Nielsen was saying, that tender-age

  • children, she had said, were never separated.

  • We know now dozens of those children under the age of 5...

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: Those very young...

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Exactly -- were separated.

  • We also know it took the administration several weeks after putting the policy into place

  • before they ended it with an executive order.

  • And there are still concerns about ongoing separations at the border.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: And, Amna, there was, again, another ongoing discussion about whether this

  • was a new policy or not.

  • I think, while she was in office, she said there was no policy.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: That's right.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: What did she have to say today?

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Yes, this has been the line from the administration: This wasn't a new policy.

  • We have to continue to remind people about the facts around this, that this was a policy

  • enacted by this administration.

  • It wasn't done by previous administrations in this way.

  • They changed the prosecution law, which made them change the separation law.

  • It's a bit of a semantic argument they have been making.

  • It's not an official policy, but it was definitely a new practice.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: And, finally, Amna, did you ask her about why she left?

  • She was, what, in the administration 16 months.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: That's right.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: It was tumultuous.

  • What did she say?

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Well, there was a long history of reports about tension between Secretary

  • Nielsen and President Trump, him wanting her to go further to try to stop some of the large

  • numbers of people that we saw coming across the southern border, and her being unwilling

  • to do that.

  • We know that he tweeted back in April that he wanted to go in a tougher direction when

  • it came to immigration.

  • Within 72 hours, she had handed in her resignation.

  • Here's what she had to say about why she left the administration:

  • What led you to resign from this administration?

  • KIRSTJEN NIELSEN: Well, what led me to resign is, there were a lot

  • of things that there were those in the administration who thought that we should do.

  • And just as I spoke truth to power from the very beginning, it became clear that saying

  • no and refusing to do it myself wasn't going to be enough.

  • So it was time for me to offer my resignation.

  • That's what I did.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: So, Judy, we should remind people the agency remains in a bit of turmoil.

  • When Nielsen left, Kevin McAleenan took over.

  • He has been the acting secretary since then.

  • Just 10 days ago, he actually announced he is resigning as well.

  • He has a few more days left on the job.

  • But we still don't know who the next person will be to lead this 240,000-person agency.

  • That will be the fifth person to fill this role in the administration.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: No permanent choice.

  • And we don't even know who the acting next choice will be.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Not yet.

  • We do not.

  • JUDY WOODRUFF: Amna Nawaz, thank you very much.

JUDY WOODRUFF: The Trump administration's policies on separation of families, migrant

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