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  • AMNA NAWAZ: Good evening. I'm  Amna Nawaz. Geoff Bennett is away.

  • On the "NewsHour" tonightIsraelis celebrate Passover,  

  • as tens of thousands remain displaced  and the war with Hamas rages on.

  • As college protests against  Israel's war in Gaza spread,  

  • a look at they compare to  demonstrations of the past.

  • And a new investigation reveals how  some of the seafood that ends up on  

  • our plates is produced by the  forced labor of North Koreans.

  • IAN URBINA, Executive EditorThe Outlaw Ocean Project: The  

  • globalized world we live in and the  way that seafood, in particular,  

  • largely routes through China means that many, if  not most brands in the U.S. are tainted by this.

  • (BREAK)

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Welcome to the "NewsHour."

  • Egypt has sent a high-level  delegation to Israel tonight,  

  • hoping to revive talks for a hostage deal  and cease-fire with Hamas. But Cairo also  

  • warned against an Israeli assault on the Southern  Gaza City of Rafah along the border with Egypt.

  • Much of Gaza has already  been reduced to a wasteland,  

  • with U.N. officials estimating 37  million tons of debris to be removed.  

  • They said today that the cleanup  operation will be a mammoth job.

  • PEHR LODHAMMAR, United Nations Mine  Action Service: With 100 trucks,  

  • we're talking about 14 years of work, with  100 trucks. So, that's based on that figure,  

  • 14 years to remove, with approximately  750,000 work days, person work days,  

  • to remove the debris, so significant  numbers when it comes to debris.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: The U.N. said  roughly 65 percent of the  

  • buildings destroyed in Gaza  have been residential ones.

  • The U.S. military today announcednew weapons package to rearm Ukraine's  

  • air defenses. It includes more Patriot missiles,  

  • but not the additional patriot  batteries that Ukraine had wanted.

  • Still, in Washington, Defense Secretary  Lloyd Austin said he believes this package,  

  • along with other weaponswill meet Ukraine's needs.

  • LLOYD AUSTIN, U.S. Secretary of Defense: They  need other types of systems and interceptors  

  • as well. And so, I would caution us all  in terms of making the Patriot the silver  

  • bullet. I would say that it's going to be  the integrated air and missile defenses,  

  • as we have said so many times  before, that really turns the tide.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: The new weapons package will  cost some $6 billion. It's part of $61  

  • billion in military aid that Congress  approved after months of deadlock.

  • Meanwhile, another member of the Biden  Cabinet, Secretary of State Antony Blinken,  

  • warned Chinese President Xi Jinping  today against supporting Russia's war  

  • in Ukraine. The two men met in BeijingBlinken said he told Xi that China must  

  • stop supplying Russia with critical  war materiel, or the U.S. will act.

  • He did not elaborate, but he did  acknowledge progress in other areas.

  • ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. Secretary of State: We are  committed to maintaining and strengthening the  

  • lines of communication between us, so that we can  avoid any miscommunications, any misconceptions,  

  • any miscalculations, and we are committed  to responsibly managing the relationship.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: For his part, Xi said China  and the U.S. must seek common ground,  

  • rather than engage in what he called  -- quote -- "vicious competition."

  • Britain's King Charles will return to public  duties next week after a three-month break for  

  • cancer treatment. Buckingham Palace said  today that doctors are very encouraged  

  • by his progress so far. The palace has not  yet said what kind of cancer the king has.

  • Here at home, the Biden administration has  again delayed a ban on menthol cigarettes.  

  • Xavier Becerra, the secretary of Health  and Human Services, announced it today,  

  • saying -- quote -- "It's clear that there  are still more conversations to have,  

  • and that will take significantly more time."

  • The ban could have angered Black voters, since 80  percent of Black smokers use menthol cigarettes.

  • U.S. poultry producers will have to cut  salmonella bacteria in some chicken products  

  • to very low levels to prevent food poisoning. A  final Agriculture Department regulation issued  

  • today applies to frozen, breaded and stuffed raw  chicken. It takes effect next year. Salmonella  

  • poisoning causes roughly 420 deaths and  1.3 million infections annually in the U.S.

  • The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration  is investigating whether last year's Tesla recall  

  • went far enough. The software update aimed to keep  drivers alert while using the autopilot feature,  

  • but there have been more crashes since thenToday, the agency said the autopilot feature  

  • -- quote -- "may lead drivers to believe that the  automation has greater capabilities than it does."

  • And on Wall Street, strong earnings at  Microsoft and Alphabet pushed the stock  

  • market higher. The Dow Jones industrial  average gained 153 points to close at  

  • 38239. The Nasdaq rose 316  points. The S&P 500 added 51.

  • Still to come on the "NewsHour": the  connection between forced North Korean  

  • labor and the seafood that ends up on American  plates; David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart  

  • weigh in on the week's political headlinesmusician Jon Bon Jovi on the new docuseries  

  • capturing the highs and lows of his Grammy  Award-winning band's four decades together.

  • This week, Jews around the  world are observing Passover,  

  • the Festival of Liberation that marks  the historic exodus from ancient Egypt.

  • But, this year, joy is tempered with loss  and trauma. More than 160,000 Israelis will  

  • mark the holiday while displaced from their  homes, as the war with Hamas continues. Still  

  • others have empty chairs at the dinner tabletheir loved ones still held captive by Hamas.

  • Ali Rogin has more.

  • ALI ROGIN: In the rugged hills of Northern Israel,  

  • Metula's mayor patrols his  town where now no one lives.

  • DAVID AZULAI, Mayor of Metula, Israel  (through translator): This is Lebanon.

  • ALI ROGIN: Lebanon is so closethat this border town of 2,000  

  • had to be evacuated under government  orders. David Azulai moves around in  

  • a golf cart. He says it's faster  to escape when the rockets crash.

  • DAVID AZULAI: This is a synagogue.

  • ALI ROGIN: For Azulai, his town is nothing of  what it once was, especially now, at Passover.

  • DAVID AZULAI (through translator): It's very sadIt shouldn't be this way. It's very apocalyptic.

  • ALI ROGIN: Since October 7, Israel's  northern border with Lebanon is  

  • now an undeclared second front lineHezbollah fires rockets and missiles  

  • weekly into Metula. Nearly a quarter of  Metula's 640 homes have been damaged.

  • And only a handful of civilians  like David chose to stay behind,  

  • carrying an automatic rifle always.

  • DAVID AZULAI (through translator): This  year, we are not going to celebrate  

  • Passover. It's very hard to celebrate when  your family and your town is not with you.

  • ALI ROGIN: His office is now in a bomb  shelter. He says none of this is normal.

  • DAVID AZULAI (through translator):  Every mayor needs to represent and  

  • take care of his citizens, a place that's alive,  

  • that has places to work, children in school  and day care. And, here, there is nothing.

  • DAVID, Resident of Metula, Israel: No family, no  work, no nothing, no personal life. We came back  

  • to the times that we've been in the militaryThat's what are doing, defending our home.

  • ALI ROGIN: Another resident, David, in combat  gear, helps guard the entrance to Metula.

  • DAVID: I'm not going to be with my  family. My family is doing Passover  

  • far away from here. I am now going  to do Passover with our new family,  

  • all of the guys that lives in Metula and decided  to stay here and defend our homes and our village.

  • ALI ROGIN: Many families from Metula have  fled just 40 miles to the south to Tiberias,  

  • an ancient city from biblical times  on the edge of the Sea of Galilee,  

  • where Scripture says Jesus walked on waterToday, it's a haven for those displaced by war.

  • The Sofia Hotel is a home away  from home for such families,  

  • like Rabbi Israel Pachter and wifeSara. They left Metula with their 11  

  • children. They struggle away from  home. They say they will overcome.

  • RABBI ISRAEL PACHTER, MetulaIsrael: Part of the winning  

  • is to keep our morality up. And  this is what we are trying to do.

  • ALI ROGIN: At the seder dinnerRabbi Pachter tries to keep the  

  • Passover spirit high with traditional  songs. The table is set with special  

  • delicacies. And the room is peopled with  a community that's shaken, but resilient.

  • RABBI ISRAEL PACHTER: You see the people trying to  be happy, to do our best to sit together, to talk,  

  • to sing, not to be all the time sad, because, if  we will be sad, it's the winning of our enemy.

  • ALI ROGIN: That's Sara's granddaughter. And  it is that childhood joy she wants to protect.

  • SARA PACHTER, Displaced Israeli: I  don't want my kids to be depressed.  

  • I don't want them to feel that this is  the end of the world. No, we're strong.

  • ALI ROGIN: But even this festive dinner is  not without despair. There were sunglasses  

  • at each table to remind them of  how so many of their country men,  

  • women, and children are kept in  darkness now for more than 200  

  • days. Dozens of Israeli families still wait  for their loved ones held captive by Hamas.

  • SARA PACHTER: Every Passover, I buy myself  a new dress and new shoes. And, this year,  

  • I couldn't buy. I just -- I felt, how can I buydress and new shoes when there's hostages? For me,  

  • it's very hard because I think about the mothers  of the hostages, what hell they go through.

  • I feel like all the world should get up and scream  and get those hostages out. It breaks my heart.

  • ALI ROGIN: That pain during Passover has for  22 years been the air breathed in Netanya,  

  • here 20 miles north of Tel Aviv. In  2002, this hotel was the target of  

  • the deadliest attack on Israel by  Hamas during the Second Intifada.

  • A suicide bomber disguised as a woman stormed  into a seder dinner, killing 30 and injuring 140.

  • RINA HAMANI, Netanya, Israel, Resident: What  we get at the Park Hotel before 22 years,  

  • it's like the 9/11 in AmericaAnd what we get now in October 7,  

  • in 7 October, it is much more, much more.

  • ALI ROGIN: Rina Hamani's husband, Ami (ph), was  

  • the hotel's duty manager and among those  killed while trying to stop the bomber.

  • RINA HAMANI: It was Ami, my husbandand me and all the children.

  • ALI ROGIN: Hamani had to raise their six childrenall boys, by herself. She was also the manager of  

  • the hotel and had to keep it running. Every  Passover is a grim reminder of her loss.

  • Given what she suffered at the hands of  Hamas, October 7 did not surprise her.

  • RINA HAMANI: We know exactly that Hamas  wants to kill us. They don't want us to  

  • be in Israel. I have no illusions that they  will want -- will say we want peace every day,  

  • some days, because, 22 years beforemy husband has been killed. I think  

  • the time before and I think that  now the same. They want to kill us.

  • This is Yaeb (ph) and his wife and his girls.

  • ALI ROGIN: This Passover, as she  has for the past two decades,  

  • Rina relies on her family to manage her grief.

  • RINA HAMANI: Americans have to understand that  

  • we have to finish with Hamas. We can't  live with them. They have to -- Hamas,  

  • the Palestinians have -- the Palestinian  population has to change the Hamas.

  • ALI ROGIN: The rituals of Passover this  year in Israel are in many ways the same,  

  • steeped in tradition as always, from the lighting  

  • of candles to reading the story  of the exodus from ancient Egypt.

  • But those rituals are also forever  changed. Now there is also a prayer  

  • for the hostages in Gaza and a resolve that  a Passover like this will not come again.

  • For the "PBS NewsHour," I'm Ali Rogin.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: One of the biggest  developments of this week has  

  • been the expansion of college protests and  encampments. Encampments continue to pop  

  • up, including today at the  University of North Carolina.

  • Meanwhile, protesters at Columbia say they  can't reach an agreement with the school and  

  • intend to keep theirs going indefinitelyHundreds of students have been arrested,  

  • and charges have been brought against  some students as well during clashes.

  • Overnight, more violent clashes between  pro-Palestinian protesters and police,  

  • this time at Ohio State University. Officers  moved to disperse a crowd after an hours-long  

  • demonstration, citing rules banning overnight  events. More than a dozen people were arrested.

  • PROTESTERS: The people united  will never be defeated!

  • AMNA NAWAZ: The latest wave of protests  and encampments follow demonstrations  

  • at Columbia University last week. Similar  scenes have popped up at scores of other  

  • colleges over the last several days  and have led to hundreds of arrests.

  • Video from Emory University yesterday shows  officers pinning a protester to the ground and  

  • Tasing him. Some demonstrators are calling on  their universities to cut financial ties with.

  • VINCENT DOEHR, UCLA Student: We came  together to make demands on the university,  

  • to divest the endowment from corporations  that profit off of Israeli genocide,  

  • to disclose where our money is  invested in the first place.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: While others want to  bring attention to the war in Gaza.

  • MOHAMMAD KHALIL, Columbia University StudentWe want to be visible. The university should  

  • do something about what we're asking  about the genocide that's happening.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Many say today's demonstrations  echo college protests movements of the past,  

  • including against the Vietnam War.

  • PROTESTER: What people in this strike are  trying to tell the United States people,  

  • the American people, is that  the country shouldn't function,  

  • the country shouldn't function  while this war is going on.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: That includes a historic demonstration  at Columbia University itself in 1968. Students  

  • occupied campus buildings demanding the  university cut ties with a think tank  

  • involved in Pentagon weapons researchIt was met with a heavy police response.

  • Other Vietnam War protests in the 1960s and '70s  led to clashes with authorities and mass arrests,  

  • but over time they helped to shift public  opinion leading up to the eventual U.S.  

  • withdrawal. In the 1980s, a similar  movement popped up at universities  

  • nationwide, calling for divestment  from South Africa to end apartheid.

  • Today, some students say they're taking  lessons from those very protests.

  • CATHERINE ELIAS, Columbia University  Student: Our core demands are financial  

  • divestment. That's been a demand  from student staff and faculty  

  • dating back to the anti-apartheid  divestment movement here at Columbia.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: As the school year comes to a close,  

  • there's no sign yet that this wave of  protests will end before classes let out.

  • PROTESTER: No more hiding, no more fear!

  • PROTESTERS: No more hiding, no more fear!

  • AMNA NAWAZ: As protests of Israel's  war in Gaza spread to campuses across  

  • the country, some see parallels between today's  demonstrations and college protests in the past.

  • Steven Mintz is a professor of history at the  University of Texas at Austin, and Angus Johnston  

  • is a professor and historian of American student  culture at the City University of New York.

  • Welcome to you both.

  • Professor Johnston, let's just start with  what the protesters are calling for here.  

  • What is their focus? What do they want  as a result of these demonstrations?

  • ANGUS JOHNSTON, Assistant Professor, City  University of New York: Well, it varies  

  • campus by campus, but primarily what we're  looking for -- looking at is, they're  

  • looking for a divestment of the universitiesfinancial relationships with Israeli companies,  

  • a disentanglement of the universities from  relationships with the Israeli government or  

  • military, and transparency as to the nature of  those relationships where they currently exist.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Mintz, how do  -- what do you make of the demands,  

  • as Professor Johnston had laid them out? Is  that something you think colleges can achieve?

  • STEVEN MINTZ, Professor of History, University  of Texas at Austin: I think they're very  

  • unlikely to be achieved.

  • The protests of the 1960s, it was possible  to achieve some kind of accommodation. First  

  • of all, one of the demands, an end to the  military draft, received widespread support  

  • throughout society, and Richard Nixon's  administration would make that happen.

  • But on campuses themselves, there were some  practical goals, like studies programs,  

  • women's studies programs, coeducation at the  elite private universities, an end to parietals  

  • and in loco parentis regulations. There waslot of ground for accommodation and compromise.

  • And I don't see that much right now.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Johnston, what  do you make of that? Do you agree?

  • ANGUS JOHNSTON: Well, I think that the easiestsimplest demand that they're making is a demand  

  • for transparency in their universitiesrelationships with Israeli institutions,  

  • and I think that that is something that is  certainly winnable on a lot of campuses.

  • I also think that, in a lot of ways, the  anti-apartheid movement of the 1970s and  

  • '80s is a much better analog than the mass  student movement of the late '60s in some ways.  

  • And I think it's important to remember thatin the case of the anti-apartheid movement,  

  • the calls for divestment on  campuses began in the mid-70s.

  • And it was a very, very long and slow process,  

  • by which students were adjusting  people's views of the crisis itself.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: What do you make of that, Professor  Mintz? Could these protests now start what could  

  • be a long chain of changing people's minds  when it comes to how they see this issue?

  • STEVEN MINTZ: The context today is very  different than in the 1960s or 1970s,  

  • when higher education was growing and the federal  and state investments in higher education were  

  • increasing. Today, the situation of American  higher education is extremely precarious.

  • Public support has diminished. Funding is  hotly debated in many of the states. There  

  • are threats in some state legislatures to  tax endowments, to tax university property,  

  • to tax university income. Donations to many  of the leading universities have declined.

  • This is a very treacherous moment,  

  • especially for the most well-endowed  and highly selective institutions.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Johnstondo you agree with that? I mean,  

  • is there a chance here that protesters  run the risk of losing support the  

  • longer these protests go on, because of this  scenario, as Professor Mintz has laid it out?

  • ANGUS JOHNSTON: Well, I think it's  important to note that the protests  

  • themselves so far have largely been  pretty moderate in their tactics.

  • We're not seeing, as we did in the 1960s, riotingrocks being thrown at police, even buildings  

  • getting burned -- being burned down. The protests  themselves have been pretty moderate. The thing  

  • that is inflaming the situation right now -- in  terms of their tactics, the thing that's inflaming  

  • the situation right now is bringing in the cops  and using the police not only to engage in mass  

  • arrests against students, but in arresting and in  some cases beating and abusing faculty as well.

  • I think it's really important to  point out that there are a number  

  • of campuses at which the university has  decided to take a hands-off approach  

  • to these encampments. MIT is oneBerkeley is another. And at these,  

  • the encampments have been proceeding with  very little issue and very little drama.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Mintz, what about thatBecause we have seen some pretty heavy-handed  

  • tactics in some cases. At your campus, at the  University of Texas in Austin, dozens of people  

  • were arrested. Police in riot gear were called  in to disperse the crowds. Is that necessary?

  • STEVEN MINTZ: Right now, we  have many brand-new presidents,  

  • unseasoned senior administrators making decisions.

  • One suspects that administrators who were  more knowledgeable about past history,  

  • had more experience dealing with students, had  better rapport with their student populations,  

  • that this would be playing  out extremely differently.

  • What we need to see on the part of senior  administrators is a real willingness to step out  

  • of their offices, communicate with the studentsand try to achieve some kind of accommodation.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Are you saying that you  don't believe that the police should  

  • have been called in some of these circumstances?

  • STEVEN MINTZ: Absolutely not. And  the lesson of history could not be  

  • clearer that this only escalates the  situation, it worsens the situation,  

  • and it results in a degree of alienation  that's very difficult to overcome.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: So, given all thatProfessor Mintz, I will ask you,  

  • and, then, Professor Johnston, if you  would follow, I will just ask you both,  

  • where do we go from here? How do you  see this unfolding in the weeks ahead?

  • Professor Mintz?

  • STEVEN MINTZ: I think the conversation  needs to be made more productive.

  • In this country, if you want political changeyou build coalitions. And what I'm not seeing on  

  • campus right now is an effort to have  effective protests that will bring people  

  • together. When people hear anti-American  sentiments, they are radically turned off.

  • The demonstrators, in my view, should be calling  for peace, for the release of the hostages,  

  • and an American foreign policy that will  really result in a two-state solution.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Professor Johnston, I  will give you the last word here.

  • ANGUS JOHNSTON: I'm really heartened by the fact  that, despite what Professor Mintz has said,  

  • a lot of faculty have been turning  out in support of these students,  

  • some of them turning out in support of the  students' goals, but others turning out in  

  • support of the students' right to protest without  being harassed and without being abused by cops.

  • I think we are seeing the development  of a new coalition on the campus. And  

  • I'm very heartened by that. And I hope  that administrators take heed of that  

  • and do their bit to de-escalate  the situation as well.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: That is Professor Angus  Johnston from the City University  

  • of New York and Professor Steven Mintz  from the University of Texas at Austin.

  • Thank you both for joining us tonight.

  • ANGUS JOHNSTON: Thank you.

  • STEVEN MINTZ: You're welcome.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: In our interconnectedglobalized economy, goods produced  

  • in one nation end up on shelves and in stores  halfway around the world. And while consumers  

  • hope there's some way to protect the  workers who make the products we buy,  

  • some American companies have recently come under  scrutiny for alleged links to forced labor.

  • William Brangham speaks with the journalist  behind a new investigation documenting the  

  • forced labor behind Chinese seafood  that ends up on American plates.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: In recent yearsAmericans have been eating increasing  

  • amounts of seafood. It's considered one  of the healthier sources of protein.

  • But a series of new investigations by the  Outlaw Ocean Project reveals that the way a  

  • lot of that seafood ends up in our stores and on  our plates comes at an extraordinary human cost,  

  • specifically, workers from North  Korea who are forced to work in  

  • Chinese factories. Here's an excerpt  of Outlaw Ocean's recent investigation.

  • IAN URBINA, Executive Editor, The Outlaw Ocean  Project: 2023 was a highly successful year for  

  • Donggang Jinhui Food. The seafood processing  company based in Dandong, China, opened a  

  • large new plant at its compound in this Chinese  city that sits along the North Korean border.

  • The company doubled the amount of squid  that it exported to the United States.  

  • In celebration of its success, Jinhui threwhuge party at its annual meeting with dancers,  

  • fireworks, and a high-tech light show.

  • The problem, though, is that a crucial reason  for Jinhui's success was its widespread use  

  • of cheap North Korean labor. Jinhui  was part of a much bigger state-run  

  • partnership between China and North Koreawhere workers are selected by the North  

  • Korean government and exported across the  border to work in Chinese seafood plants.

  • This is a huge problem because it violates  very clear and strict U.N. sanctions and  

  • U.S. law prohibiting the use of North  Korean workers in this very fashion.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Joining me now  is the reporter you just heard,  

  • Outlaw Ocean's founder and director, the  Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Ian Urbina.

  • Great to have you back on the "NewsHour."

  • IAN URBINA: Thanks for having me.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: This incredibly  harrowing investigation looks at a  

  • series of these Chinese seafood plants  in this city that you just mentioned  

  • near the North Korean border with tens  of thousands of North Korean workers.

  • Explain to us, how do those workers  get from North Korea into China?

  • IAN URBINA: Well, this is a long-running  program between China and North Korea. The two  

  • governments coordinate the selection  of workers for different industries,  

  • then transfer them into the country, usually  under two-year contracts where they stay in China,  

  • most often at locked-down plants  where they're not allowed to leave.

  • The North Koreans seek these jobs because  they typically pay much better than what  

  • they could earn in North Korea. And there's  a rigorous selection process in North Korea  

  • for those who get to go. They're mostly womenAnd the selection process by the North Korean  

  • government usually is a vetting that ensures  they don't choose people that might defect.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So this is  labor for Chinese factories.  

  • What is the upside for North Korea here?

  • IAN URBINA: So North Korea, because of the  sanctions, largely is desperate for capital,  

  • for money. And so this is a multimillion-dollar  

  • moneymaking business, where  they send their workers abroad.

  • And that foreign capital is a strong capital,  

  • Chinese capital, that they can use to  buy weapons or oil or consumer goods.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Let's look at another excerpt  

  • about how -- what the conditions  are like in some of those factories.

  • IAN URBINA: Workers often have to sign two or  three-year contracts. After they arrive in China,  

  • managers confiscate their passports. If  workers attempt to escape or complain to  

  • people outside the plants, their families at  home can face reprisals from the government.

  • The work itself is relentless. Shifts at the  seafood plants run 14 to 16 hours. Workers  

  • receive up to one day off per month and few, if  any, holidays or sick days. In seafood plants,  

  • the women sleep in bunk beds in locked  dormitories, sometimes with 30 people to a room.

  • Workers are forbidden from tuning in to  local TV or radio and from leaving factory  

  • grounds on the company. They describe lonelinessviolence, and a crushing sense of captivity.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Your report also  documents even worse conditions, violence,  

  • sexual abuse, particularly among the  women that you're talking about here.

  • Can you describe a little bit  about what their lives are like?

  • IAN URBINA: This is a brutal type of  work, long hours in tight quarters,  

  • relentless pace. And so they're captive  on facilities that are run by men.

  • And so this was -- one of the big revelations was  the extent of sexual violence against the women,  

  • quite especially when work stopped because of  COVID. A lot of factories shut down, and so there  

  • was no work and no income, and, thereforethe women were pressured into prostitution.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: I think a lot  of American consumers would be  

  • horrified to think that the  conditions under which food  

  • that they might be eating or buying instore comes out of conditions like this.

  • How does that end up here? Which  retailers are we talking about?

  • IAN URBINA: Unfortunately, it's most  retailers, most of the large ones.

  • So this investigation that looked specifically  at the use of North Korean labor found that  

  • some of the seafood was ending up routing  through plants that are supplying Trident,  

  • which supplies McDonald's with fish sticks, but  also Sysco, largest food company in the world that  

  • supplies public schools, and federal prisons and  U.S. congressional cafeteria also getting seafood  

  • from these plants, but then the major grocery  store chains, ShopRite, Giant, Walmart also.

  • So the globalized world we live in and  the way that seafood, in particular,  

  • largely routes through China means that many, if  not most, brands in the U.S. are tainted by this.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: So when you approach  these companies and say, here's what  

  • we're documenting coming out of China and the  conditions there, what do they say in response?

  • IAN URBINA: Most stonewall us and don't  answer questions. Some engage and say,  

  • we're taking it seriously, we're investigatingwe will get back to you. And still others say,  

  • we have taken this seriously, we have  severed ties with this plant in particular.

  • The overall underlying issue is, the auditsthe sort of inspections that they're supposed  

  • to be doing to check for these issues  aren't working. This auditing market,  

  • which sends inspectors into plantswhether it's soccer balls or iPhones  

  • or seafood around the world, has  big problems, big challenges.

  • Often, they're not doing unannounced  visits. They're doing announced visits,  

  • so they tell the plant when they're  coming. That's a flaw. But the other  

  • big flaw is that China is a distinct  environment, and there are certain  

  • things not allowed in China. If you want  to stay in the country, whether you're a  

  • journalism organization or an auditing firm or  seafood company, there's certain no-go topics.

  • And human rights and Uyghurs  and North Koreans are topics  

  • you can't bring up on Monday and expect  to still be in the country on Wednesday.

  • WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Ian Urbina. The project  is called the Outlaw Ocean Project.

  • Thank you so much for being here.

  • IAN URBINA: Thanks for having me.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Legal cases involving former President  Trump and some of his closest associates play out  

  • in state courts, the Supreme Court and the court  of public opinion. Meanwhile, as foreign aid  

  • begins to arrive in Ukraine and the Middle Eastprotests boil over on campuses across the U.S.

  • For more on a consequential week overseas  and here at home, we turn to the analysis  

  • of Brooks and Capehart. That is New York Times  columnist David Brooks and Jonathan Capehart,  

  • associate editor for The Washington Post.

  • Great to see you both.

  • JONATHAN CAPEHART: Hey, Amna.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: So, a big week when it comes to the  legal battles surrounding former President Trump.

  • Let's start at the Supreme Court.

  • David, justices there heard arguments  about Trump's potential immunity,  

  • which his lawyers argue should  be absolute. What did you take  

  • away from the arguments and the way the  justices seem to be approaching this?

  • DAVID BROOKS: Well, a lot of  commentary on the fact that  

  • a lot of the more conservative justices  didn't seem interested in Donald Trump,  

  • the case right in front of them. They  were interested in the precedent.

  • And I do find it intellectually interestingbut it was a little weird that Trump  

  • was barely mentioned in some cases. And sonormally, you would say, yes, a president's  

  • not above the law, of course. it's simplePresident's not above law. No one's above law.

  • But if you look at democracies in decline,  

  • then it is a pattern that people in office  use their power to indict and criminalize  

  • and throw in jail that people who were in  office before them of the opposing party.

  • And so we are a nation, democracy in  decline. And so it does make you think,  

  • well, if the Republicans would try to  indict Ali Mayorkas and impeach him,  

  • well, then maybe once they come in  office, they will criminalize some of  

  • this action. And maybe there should  be some protections against that.

  • I don't know where you would draw the  line between those presidential actions  

  • which are immune to indictments  and convictions and those where  

  • you're not. But in a democracy and  decline, you really have to think,  

  • how do we build in more guardrails so we don't  start criminalizing political disagreement?

  • AMNA NAWAZ: How do you look at it, Jonathan?

  • JONATHAN CAPEHART: I mean, the first  thing we can do as an American electorate  

  • is electorate is no longer elect someone  who would crash through the guardrails  

  • and electing other people who would enable  that person to crash through the guardrails.

  • I mean, I agree with David. The idea that the  Supreme Court could possibly hand down a ruling  

  • that would force Judge Chutkan to go through  the counts and figure out what are private acts  

  • and what are official acts in order to determine  whether the former president is immune is insane.

  • I mean, this country is almost 250 years  old, if my math is right. Only until the  

  • election of Donald Trump have we ever had to even  contemplate this question. And so until we stop  

  • electing chief executives who lack the shame geneyes, maybe we will have to answer this question.

  • But the fact that we are here is -- it's  really disturbing. And listening to the  

  • questioning back and forth really  made me wonder whether the Supreme  

  • Court -- do they really want to squander  their public standing, such as it is,  

  • by handing down a decision that everyone  will look at and go, what are you doing?

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Can I hear from both of you  briefly on this? Do you think we will  

  • get a clear answer from them on this, Jonathan?

  • JONATHAN CAPEHART: I don't think so.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: No?

  • David?

  • DAVID BROOKS: I don't think so either, no.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: OK. We're moving on then.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • AMNA NAWAZ: We will come back to that.

  • There were a few other cases I want to get  your takes on as well, because they're very  

  • different. They, of course, both involve former  President Trump. In New York, there is the hush  

  • money trial that's continuing that's related to  a payment he made to adult actress back in 2016.

  • We heard testimony from a tabloid publisher  named David Pecker this week confirming that  

  • he did bury stories that could have harmed  then-candidate Trump. Meanwhile, in Arizona,  

  • two of Trump's closest advisers, his  former Chief of Staff Mark Meadows and  

  • former attorney Rudy Giuliani, were  among 18 people indicted in the fake  

  • electors scheme there to help overturn  Trump's 2020 election loss to Joe Biden.

  • David, did either of those developments in these  

  • cases, do you think, change  the landscape for Trump?

  • DAVID BROOKS: I don't think they  change the landscape for him.

  • I was morbidly fascinated by the  tabloid editor -- publisher's testimony.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Really?

  • DAVID BROOKS: Because that is  not the way we do journalism.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Right.

  • DAVID BROOKS: Like, paying people hush money,  

  • burying stories, it's just like a moral  netherworld that Trump had entered.

  • Somehow, when -- I was reminded, I was once  in the '80s invited to a party opening Trump  

  • Plaza. And Trump is there with all his  cronies. And I look around the room,  

  • it's all the people you think are kind  of corrupt. And a buddy of mine sees  

  • me across the room and comes up to me  and says, "Not indicted, not invited."

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • DAVID BROOKS: I remember thinking, like,  

  • we're really entering a different  layer of New York than I was used to.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

  • DAVID BROOKS: And that's what  we're confronting. And we have  

  • been confronting it for a bunch of years. But...

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, how  do you look at these cases?

  • JONATHAN CAPEHART: The testimony  of David Pecker was fascinating.

  • I mean, I lived and worked  in New York for 16 years.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

  • JONATHAN CAPEHART: I worked at The New York Daily  News. So The New York Post was a competitor.

  • And so we...

  • AMNA NAWAZ: You knew this world.

  • JONATHAN CAPEHART: So I know this world. So David  

  • Pecker is not foreign to me. What he's  talking about is not foreign to me.

  • But I think for the larger public to  hear what really goes on, particularly  

  • with that kind of tabloid newspaper, I think  is fascinating. And, also, let's not forget,  

  • we're talking about a former president who is  in court over particular hush money payments,  

  • who has been found liable for  fraud and for sexual assault,  

  • who couldn't be in Washington for the  immunity hearing from when he was president.

  • This guy is going to spend more  -- has been spending more time in  

  • court than on the campaign trail to run  for reelection. I think what makes this  

  • week and this case so fascinating is  that we're watching this guy be held  

  • accountable for at least a sliver of  what he has possibly, allegedly, done.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: And, meanwhile, in the New York case,  

  • we should mention he's now violated  the gag order a total of 15 times.

  • JONATHAN CAPEHART: And countingwe should say, and counting.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: I mean, is there any way for former  President Trump to be reined in on that front?

  • DAVID BROOKS: I think his entire  administration tried to do that  

  • for four years, and it didn't seem to work.  I don't think there's a way to rein him in.

  • JONATHAN CAPEHART: It's not -- no.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • AMNA NAWAZ: I need to ask you  about President Biden as well,  

  • because we should mention, as you knowoftentimes, when authorities don't want  

  • you to talk too much about something, it  will get announced on a Friday afternoon.

  • We did have an announcement today from the  Biden administration. They are delaying their  

  • decision -- or their plans, rather, to ban menthol  cigarettes. We know that's known for its appeal  

  • to Black smokers in particular. Some 81 percent  of Black adult smokers smoke menthol cigarettes.

  • David, this has been an effort the FDA  has been pushing for 10 years now. It's  

  • been through three administrations. They  have failed to get it across the finish  

  • line. But why do you think the Biden  administration decided to do this now?

  • DAVID BROOKS: Well, I haven't spoken about it,  

  • but I hope it was out of a sense of some  sense that adults can make up their own mind.

  • I, frankly, had the reaction the way when  Bloomberg, Mike Bloomberg in New York tried  

  • to ban the Big Gulp sodas. It's like too much  nanny state. Now, I have seen the studies on  

  • the menthol cigarettes. They're -- the FDA does  say a lot fewer people will smoke if we ban them.

  • But at some point, we're a democracy where  people, adults get to be treated like adults.  

  • And everyone knows this stuff is really bad  for you. And people make their own decisions.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan, as you knowhe's faced accusations, of course,  

  • that this is about politics, that this could  

  • alienate Black voters that President  Biden needs. What do you make of that?

  • JONATHAN CAPEHART: Well, I'm going to  jump off of what David was talking about.

  • But cigarettes are addictive. And menthol  is particularly addictive. And when you're  

  • talking about an addictive substance in an  addictive product that has a disproportionate  

  • impact on African Americans, wellsorry, as an African American,  

  • I look at the FDA and say, you know whatgood for you. You should be doing this.

  • Folks should be forced to quit, meaning, this  is not good for you. This is about attempting  

  • to save your life. And I think -- I maybe agree  with you on Mike Bloomberg and the Big Gulp sodas.  

  • But the first thing Mike Bloomberg did when he  was mayor of New York City that people started  

  • screaming about the nanny state was banning  cigarettes in bars. And now -- in restaurants.

  • And now everyone loves him for it. And so  I think, sure, if the Biden administration  

  • is trying to play politics by dumping  this announcement on a Friday afternoon,  

  • fine. Elections are decided on  the margins. But in the end,  

  • what the FDA is proposing needs to  be done. It's about saving lives.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Meanwhile, as  you saw earlier in the show,  

  • we continue to report on the spread of  these campus protests, pro-Palestinian  

  • protests, by and large, and protesting  Israel's war conduct in Gaza.

  • David, they have spread very quicklyThey are sustaining on campuses. How do  

  • you look at these? I mean, should these  be a sort of warning signs to the Biden  

  • administration? What do you make of  how quickly and widely they spread?

  • DAVID BROOKS: Yes, I have been frustrated that  people aren't making some distinctions here.

  • So I think most of the protesters  are appalled by the horrors the  

  • Palestinians are suffering and they're  well-motivated by compassion. There are  

  • some people who are probably hard left  people, and they get to have their views.

  • There are a lot of people who are antisemitic and  violent. And so you should not be able to say,  

  • as one of the Columbia students said, Zionists  don't deserve to live. If that happens,  

  • you should be expelled. And so, in my viewthey should let them protest. But if somebody  

  • says something, "Go back to Poland," or  even a pro-Palestinian or pro-Israeli,  

  • "Go back to Gaza," that's ruining  the community of the campus.

  • And so those people should be expelled. So that's  the distinction that should be made. And, somehow,  

  • the people who are really threatening the  community by threatening violence, they're  

  • not being expelled. And I think that would have  the deterrent effect that would separate really  

  • the bad actors from the people who are just  well-motivated to do -- to try to save lives.

  • As for the Biden administration,  

  • I do worry that the Chicago convention  is going to look a lot like 1968.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Really?

  • DAVID BROOKS: And that will just be  terrible for the Biden administration.  

  • The president will look hapless and powerless.

  • One other final thing that  I just found interesting,  

  • Harvard does this survey. What are young adults  interested in, what issues? Israel, Gaza is 15  

  • out of 60. And so a lot of people I know are  passionately in on both sides of this issue.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Yes.

  • DAVID BROOKS: But most young voters  are interested in inflation, crime,  

  • health care, the normal issues. And so it's  important for us, those -- especially those  

  • of us who are in educated circles, not to  generalize from our own immediate experience,  

  • because a lot of people are thinking  about very different things than this.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Jonathan?

  • JONATHAN CAPEHART: I would  say I agree with you, David.

  • I think the discussion about  what's happening on these in  

  • these protests is missing a lot of nuanceNot everyone who's protesting is antisemitic,  

  • is rooting for violence or is he even causing the  violence? They are there for legitimate reasons.

  • And I agree with David. If a person of the  college community is disrupting and saying racist,  

  • antisemitic things, then, yes, they should be  expelled. But we also should be mindful that,  

  • who are these people who are saying  these things? Some might be members  

  • of the university or college communitybut some could be from the outside.

  • And my big fear from the BLM  movement is, folks from the outside  

  • causing violence and then the blame being  foisted upon the people who are legitimately  

  • protesting. And that is my big concern when  we talk about this latest national protest.

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Well, here's to nuance. Here's to  

  • facts. Thank you to both of you for  bringing those to the table always.

  • Jonathan Capehart, David  Brooks, always good to see you.

  • JONATHAN CAPEHART: Thanks, Amna.

  • AMNA NAWAZ:  

  • Few musical acts have enjoyed the success and  the long run of the legendary band Bon Jovi.

  • And a revealing new documentary  series premiering tonight on Hulu  

  • tracks the highs and the lows of the Grammy  Award-winning band's four decades together.

  • Recently, Geoff Bennett spoke with front man  

  • Jon Bon Jovi about "Thank YouGoodnight: The Bon Jovi Story."

  • It's for our arts and culture series, Canvas.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Jon Bon Joviwelcome to the "NewsHour."

  • JON BON JOVI, Musician: Thank  you, Geoff. Happy to be here.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Yes, it's great to have you here.

  • This docuseries is a real, honest look at the  band's triumphs, its setbacks. What has this  

  • experience been like, reliving your past and then  considering what it all means for your future?

  • JON BON JOVI: It was emotional  when we saw rough cut, because  

  • a lot of life was lived in these last 40 years.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Why share so  much and why share it now?

  • JON BON JOVI: Well, 40 is a milestoneEven if it's only the first 40,  

  • 40 years is a long time to have  been making music as we have.

  • So I wanted to mark this milestoneWe were archiving everything,  

  • that I didn't realize or a hoarder I have become.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • JON BON JOVI: So it made it  easy for the storytelling.

  • And then about this vocal surgery was  not a part of the plan. But this is a  

  • couple years in the making, this filmSo that just happened. And I'm not  

  • afraid to show emotion. It's just that we  typically hadn't had the platform for it.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: To have led one of  the world's most successful bands,  

  • to have a 40-year run doing that, that doesn't  happen by accident. What has it required of you?

  • JON BON JOVI: I love what I do, but it's hard  work. It's like anything else. It's your craft,  

  • but it's also your passion, and then  by being true to who and what you are,  

  • which was important early on and to remain true  to that, you evolve as a man and as a writer.

  • And people come along for that ride.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: And you found success early,  

  • in your early 20s. How were you able to  grapple with megawatt fame so early in life?

  • JON BON JOVI: I can't tell you that  I could write the book on it, but,  

  • in truth, probably our upbringing, where we were  from, the time in which we were born, family.

  • The band could close the door and say,  "Do you believe what just happened"?

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • JON BON JOVI: So a lot of  that was living your life.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: You talk in the  docuseries about one of your  

  • biggest musical influences, Bruce Springsteen.

  • I didn't realize until watching this that you  

  • actually played with his band  when you were in high school?

  • JON BON JOVI: He jumped up on stage with  my band when I was still in high school.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Well, that's even better. He played  with your band when you were in high school.

  • How has your relationship evolved since then?

  • JON BON JOVI: Well, obviously,  

  • it's something that I treasure. He's  so many millions of people's hero.

  • But growing up 25 miles away from that  Jersey Shore scene, where he made it famous,  

  • and then Southside Johnny followed up in those  footsteps, those were guys that not only I could  

  • look up to who were 12 and 13 years older, but  they made the impossible seem very possible,  

  • because they were, in essenceright outside your window.

  • And now our relationships, of course, are bonded  forever, because we have become very close.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Well, as I mentioned, this  docuseries focuses on the band's setbacks.

  • And you mentioned your vocal cord  surgery. It was April of 2022.

  • JON BON JOVI: Right.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: You were performing  in Nashville. You came off stage  

  • and realized you might not ever  be able to perform live again?

  • JON BON JOVI: Well, it's not that I couldn't.  It was more of a decision that maybe I wouldn't.

  • I tried everything I couldThere was something happening,  

  • but a picture couldn't show it to youWhen a singer has something like a nodule,  

  • it's in essence a pimple on a vocal cord. You  can see it visually. I wasn't having that.

  • What I was realizing that one of my vocal cords  was atrophying. And after a lot of holistic and  

  • praying and anything I could do, including going  out on the road to try to beat it into shape,  

  • I'd come to the conclusion that I needed  to find the right surgeon. And I did.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: And there is no Bon  Jovi without you and your voice.

  • What did that feel like to potentially have the  thing that you love to do taken away from you?

  • JON BON JOVI: The truth is, I hadn't had to think  

  • about that because I have always been in  the process of getting to the recovery.

  • The new album is proof that the surgery has  worked. For me now, the bar is getting back to  

  • that two-and-a-half-hours a night, four nights  a week. So that's the process that I'm in now.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: The docuseries also features  your former guitarist Richie Sambora,  

  • who you described as your perfect  foil. What do you mean by that?

  • JON BON JOVI: Well, everybody  wants a right-hand man,  

  • if they're lucky enough they  have a friend like that.

  • And he had come to see me many years ago. He  says: "I need to be your guitar player." When  

  • we clicked and hit it off, he became that perfect  right-hand man. And, in 2013, he left the band.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: How big of an adjustment  was it when he officially left?

  • JON BON JOVI: Well, there was a big  black hole on that side of the stage,  

  • for sure, but there was nothing  that was going to hinder me from  

  • continuing to write records and  go out there and sell out shows.

  • Sorry to say it, but look  at the marquee, you know?

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Has he watched this docuseries?

  • JON BON JOVI: We watched it together. And  it was wonderfully emotional to be together,  

  • just the two of us watching it.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: What do you believe  sets Bon Jovi apart from other bands?

  • JON BON JOVI: I don't know. I mean, if I did,  I'd bottle it and sell it to somebody else.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • JON BON JOVI: But I think it was  the hard work, the joy of doing it.  

  • We persevered by writing songs  that people could relate to.

  • And I have been on this 40-year journeythat people may have gotten off the ride  

  • along the way,but it's been honest and  open. And so you can feel yourself in  

  • those shoes in different parts of your life  the way I have written about them in mine.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Yes, well, one of those songs,  

  • "Livin' on a Prayer," classic, one  of the best rock melodies ever.

  • But when you were writing it, you thought,  I'm not so sure about this. Maybe it's a  

  • song for a movie soundtrack. How did  that song ultimately come to life?

  • JON BON JOVI: Well, it evolved.

  • When we'd written it on that day, it was  a very simple chord structure. The melody,  

  • the lyric was finished. We knew all of  that. But it came to life when the band  

  • got in the room and we developed the bass  line, and Tico came in playing the drums.

  • And that's when it popped. That's when  the key change happened at the end.

  • (SINGING)

  • JON BON JOVI: That's how we wrote it.

  • (MUSIC)

  • JON BON JOVI: With an acoustic  guitar and a stand-up piano.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • JON BON JOVI: There was no drum machines in  those days. There was nothing like that. So,  

  • I was like, yes, it's good. It's good.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Did you know then that  it could be as enduring as it is?

  • JON BON JOVI: No. In truth, Geoff, it  wasn't the first single on the album.

  • "You Give Love a Bad Name" was the  first single, because that sort of  

  • sounded like what was on the radio, whathit song sounded like. When we wrote that,  

  • when we were like, I think we got  one here. "Prayer" was so different.  

  • And it was the second single, and, of coursethe billions of steams and all that stuff later.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Right, right.

  • JON BON JOVI: Who knew?

  • (MUSIC)

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Well, you have got a new album  coming out in June, recorded in Nashville.

  • JON BON JOVI: Yes.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: What does Nashville  lend to the Bon Jovi sound?

  • JON BON JOVI: I remember, when I was a kidmy mom said, find your influences' influences.

  • And when we were talking a little bit off camera,  

  • somebody had said to me during the course  of this promo tour, what's the first music  

  • you remember hearing? And the thing that came  to mind initially was Beatles and Gene Autry.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Really?

  • JON BON JOVI: So there was always  a little bit of a country thing  

  • that I was aware of as a little boyBut it wasn't what drew me to music.

  • What draws me to the city is, I jokingly say,  

  • these are my people. The -- it's  a songwriters community. Every guy  

  • that's pumping gas is a great songwriterAnd they're still making a living doing it.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: You think you might tour again?

  • JON BON JOVI: I hope so.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Yes, yes. Well, so do we.

  • JON BON JOVI: Thank you.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Jon Bon Jovi, the new  docuseries is "Thank You, Goodnight: The  

  • Bon Jovi Story," streaming  now on Hulu and Disney+.

  • JON BON JOVI: Thanks.

  • GEOFF BENNETT: Really great to talk with you.

  • JON BON JOVI: And you, buddy. Thank you.

  • (MUSIC)

  • AMNA NAWAZ: Later tonight on PBSactor John Lithgow goes back to school.

  • In "Art Happens Here With John Lithgow,"  the author and humorist shares his passion  

  • for arts education, trying his hand at  pottery, printmaking, dancing, and singing.

  • (SINGING)

  • (CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

  • JOHN LITHGOW, Actor: I choose  to take that as a compliment.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • STUDENT: I have a question for you, Miss B.

  • WOMAN: Yes.

  • STUDENT: Does he need to use his falsetto for  

  • "Snowflake," because he seems  more comfortable without it?

  • (CROSSTALK)

  • WOMAN: When he first did it, he didn't use it.

  • JOHN LITHGOW: I think I have dropped  it the last few times. And it's fine.

  • STUDENT: It's good.

  • WOMAN: I believe it's like, for  everybody here, it's confidence,  

  • that you have the confidence, because  the confidence controls how you perform.

  • JOHN LITHGOW: Yes.

  • WOMAN: That's all it is.

  • JOHN LITHGOW: Yes. And just, what the  heck? It's my voice. So I sing in my voice.

  • WOMAN: Yes.

  • JOHN LITHGOW: And I don't think  anybody will be throwing things at me.

  • WOMAN: No, they better not.

  • (LAUGHTER)

  • AMNA NAWAZ: "Art Happens Here  With John Lithgow" premieres  

  • tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern right here on PBS.

  • And be sure to tune into "Washington Week With  

  • The Atlantic" tonight for a look at  former President Trump's turbulent  

  • week in court and the pro-Palestinian  protests erupting across the country.

  • And on "PBS News Weekend": how Ecuador went from  

  • a model of stability in South America to  a hotbed of gang violence and turf wars.

  • And that's the "NewsHourfor tonight. I'm Amna Nawaz.

  • On behalf of the entire "NewsHourteam, thank you for joining us.

AMNA NAWAZ: Good evening. I'm  Amna Nawaz. Geoff Bennett is away.

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