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  • Welcome to the program.

  • You've been listening

  • to some of the reporting

  • just just airing just before you

  • and you obviously seeing everything

  • that's going on around you.

  • Tell me first,

  • what has been going through your head

  • and your heart since October 7th?

  • Well, since

  • October 7th,

  • everything has changed in some ways

  • and in other ways.

  • Everything is

  • my my worst fears are coming true.

  • I as you mentioned,

  • I fought in Gaza in 2014.

  • That war was also preceded by a horrific

  • terrorist attack,

  • just like we saw on October 7th.

  • Three Israeli teenagers

  • were kidnaped and murdered,

  • which led to a oh, don't worry

  • sorry story

  • which led which led to a horrific

  • which led to the firing of rockets.

  • A massive crackdown on Hamas

  • in the West Bank

  • and the firing of rockets and

  • then a ground invasion.

  • The the images that

  • everyone is seeing that I'm seeing

  • remind me very vividly of that fighting.

  • And frankly it's it's my worst fears

  • because many people colleagues

  • in the Israeli peace camp in the Israeli

  • anti-occupation camp

  • have been warning

  • for so many years

  • saying that

  • there is no military solution.

  • We can't just manage the conflict

  • and maintain a very, very brutal

  • military

  • regime of control over Palestinians.

  • That actually plays

  • into the hands of Hamas

  • and plays

  • into the hands

  • of these murderous terrorist groups.

  • And so all I've been doing since then

  • is trying to share my message, try

  • to share my experience,

  • and try to avoid making the same mistakes

  • that we made in 2014

  • when Hamas only got stronger

  • after we bombed them and killed thousands

  • and we struck them a decisive blow

  • where that's at least

  • what I thought at the time.

  • But I only saw afterwards

  • that my own government

  • strengthened Hamas.

  • You know,

  • it's pretty intense to hear you say that.

  • Look,

  • we know that

  • the majority of your country

  • right now is in favor of this war.

  • They might not be in favor

  • of the current government,

  • but they definitely believe

  • that somehow, somewhere

  • Hamas has to be defeated.

  • You're saying

  • it can't be done militarily.

  • Tell us.

  • I guess the first question

  • really is to you.

  • Are you out of step

  • with the majority of your country people

  • right now?

  • And are you able still to talk about,

  • you know, what you saw,

  • what you feel,

  • what you've learned, how you've changed,

  • Yeah.

  • Well, I'll add,

  • you know, I'm not a I'm not a pacifist.

  • I believe that Israel

  • has the responsibility to defend itself.

  • Against Hamas.

  • And, of course,

  • that includes military actions.

  • But I think that right now

  • in Israeli society,

  • there's a debate going on

  • as to

  • whether this war that we're fighting

  • should be against Hamas

  • or it should it be against

  • the Palestinian people.

  • And you have

  • members of this current government

  • who have said

  • since the horrific atrocities

  • that we saw in October,

  • on October 7th against Israeli civilians

  • and the kidnaping of Israeli

  • civilians who are still being held

  • they have made it clear

  • that they aren't differentiating

  • between civilians and and Hamas.

  • Even last night,

  • a senior member of the coalition

  • sorry, on Saturday night,

  • senior member of the coalition

  • of a member of the cabinet,

  • Bezalel Smotrich,

  • the finance minister

  • and the minister overseeing

  • the West Bank

  • and the Ministry of Defense said

  • that he doesn't

  • really see

  • a big difference

  • between the Palestinian Authority

  • and Hamas.

  • The Arabs are the same Arabs.

  • So there are many Israelis

  • who disagree with that.

  • And there are many Israelis

  • who are questioning the assumptions

  • and questioning

  • the lies that they've been told

  • for so many years.

  • And maybe it is a majority

  • who has believed the lies that

  • our government has told us.

  • But, you know, I

  • think that this is an opportunity for a

  • for partners

  • of mine in the Israeli peace camp.

  • I saw

  • many of my.

  • Yes,

  • I can hear you

  • Let me ask you another question, Ben.

  • Let me ask you another question.

  • Okay, Ben.

  • See, your line is dropped.

  • We're going to redial you

  • and we're going to bring you back.

  • We're going to bring you back

  • So standby and we'll bring you back.

  • I want to ask you again about the op ed,

  • the article

  • you wrote

  • for The New York Times

  • describing what it was like

  • you know,

  • in the deployment in 2014 and Gaza.

  • You wrote,

  • you know,

  • that some of your soldiers

  • were feeling doubts at that time.

  • And then you wrote your own thoughts

  • on a piece of paper and you wrote this.

  • I wrote that

  • some members of my team had been tallying

  • the number of soldiers killed

  • and discussing

  • whether this operation

  • was worth the losses.

  • I think it could be worth it.

  • I wrote

  • as long as we decisively eliminate

  • the threat.

  • That's the lie they told us

  • and the lie that's being repeated today

  • that we can decisively eliminate

  • the threat of Hamas

  • through a military operation and see.

  • How did you come to the conclusion that

  • you couldn't

  • Well, you know, one of the voices

  • that I've listened to over the years

  • and I've been convinced

  • by is not just not just the voices

  • of human rights activists,

  • but also the voice of the former

  • head of the Shin Bet, Amy Ayalon,

  • who is the top counterterrorism expert

  • and for four

  • and a half years in the in the country.

  • And he said this openly.

  • He said,

  • the only way to decisively defeat

  • the terrorism that Hamas represents

  • is through creating an alternative

  • and creating hope.

  • And that means working

  • towards a political solution.

  • And our current government has been

  • fundamentally committed

  • to opposing a political solution

  • and to preventing the creation

  • of a Palestinian state

  • and preventing Palestinian independence.

  • So, therefore,

  • I that's why

  • I realize that

  • military alone will not defeat Hamas.

  • And that's why

  • I think that our government

  • needs to be changed immediately.

  • So let me ask you then as well,

  • because you talk a lot in your favor

  • of what you saw in Gaza in 2014.

  • Tell me,

  • because earlier

  • you said you don't believe

  • that the soldiers distinguish

  • carefully enough

  • between civilians and Hamas fighters.

  • What did you

  • yourself experienced to make you say that

  • Well, you know,

  • in the

  • area that we went,

  • we were told that

  • all the civilians had fled.

  • And that was true for the most part,

  • but it wasn't entirely true.

  • We did find civilians.

  • There was an entire family

  • in the second neighborhood

  • that my unit took over

  • was an entire family who stayed behind

  • And the soldiers,

  • you know, luckily

  • when they entered the house, they didn't

  • kill them through live fire.

  • They gave them food and water.

  • They guarded them for many days.

  • But when we pulled out,

  • the Air Force

  • flew overhead

  • and bombed the entire neighborhood.

  • And eight

  • members of that family were killed.

  • I learned this later.

  • So I've seen this with my own eyes

  • and I'm not.

  • And I'm listening today.

  • I'm listening to my own leaders,

  • including who I'm mentioned,

  • Bezalel Smotrich,

  • who said he doesn't really

  • differentiate between

  • the Palestinian Authority,

  • which recognizes

  • Israel wants to negotiate

  • with Israel and Hamas,

  • which is the terrorist organization

  • that carried out these atrocities.

  • The Arabs are the Arabs.

  • That's what he said on Saturday

  • night on Israeli television.

  • So it's hard for me to believe.

  • I don't believe that

  • I've seen it with my own eyes.

  • I don't believe that Israel

  • is doing everything in its power

  • to prevent civilian casualties

  • based on the statements

  • of members of the Likud

  • and other members of the coalition.

  • And I think that that's

  • a result of the fact that this government

  • doesn't view

  • the Palestinian people

  • as the future partners

  • for making peace with.

  • And they are just convinced that

  • overwhelming military power

  • is going to bring us safety and security

  • and this is a catastrophic mistake.

  • It's the same catastrophic mistake

  • that led us to the horrific

  • events of

  • October 7th And

  • we absolutely need to change that.

  • We need our partners abroad.

  • We need the US government also.

  • I'm an Israeli, but I'm also an American.

  • And I expect that the American government

  • also not just pay lip service to the idea

  • of pursuing a political solution.

  • You know,

  • settlements are expanding

  • at an incredible rate.

  • Settlers are illegally taking over land,

  • not even according to international law,

  • according to Israeli law.

  • They're going out

  • and there are shooting at

  • Palestinian civilians

  • and there's no with impunity.

  • There's no real enforcement against them.

  • And so I think the our international

  • partners and allies

  • need to take a stance

  • on the side of the Israelis

  • who are

  • demanding political solution

  • and are demanding

  • differentiation, and that our government

  • makes sure not to harm and kill

  • innocent civilians.

  • Benzie, obviously,

  • they tell us endlessly

  • that they are doing their best,

  • but you can see

  • allies like the United States

  • are getting increasingly worried,

  • not to mention everybody on the ground

  • about the civilian toll.

  • There is there are stories

  • a lot

  • about dissent being quashed in Israel.

  • Are you not worried

  • about what you're saying to me

  • publicly now,

  • being accused of siding with the enemy

  • and the kind of things

  • that are getting some Israelis in trouble

  • You know,

  • it's it's a risk

  • that I have

  • to take

  • for the future of the people of Israel.

  • You know,

  • siding with the enemy would be ironic

  • for my government to accuse me

  • after my government

  • in order

  • to prevent a Palestinian state

  • actually facilitated

  • the transfer of hundreds

  • of millions of dollars to Hamas

  • and preferred to bolster Hamas

  • and to de-legitimize

  • the Palestinian Authority

  • and Palestinian

  • human rights organizations.

  • They designated

  • Palestinian human rights organizations

  • as a terrorist organization

  • that they categorized

  • Palestinian

  • diplomatic initiatives as Palestinian,

  • as diplomatic terrorism.

  • But Hamas,

  • they facilitated the transfer

  • of hundreds of millions of dollars,

  • and they also crushed

  • Palestinian hopes of independence,

  • which also fed the fuel of Hamas,

  • because that's what Hamas

  • is the enemy of peace.

  • And when our government committed itself

  • to preventing a peace process

  • and preventing negotiations,

  • they were actually helping Hamas.

  • Ben Sanders, thank you very much.

  • And what you've just said

  • has been

  • confirmed by by very many people.

  • And obviously, we know that governments

  • were encouraged

  • to try to make Gaza and Hamas

  • sort of economically

  • okay,

  • thinking that the threat had subsided.

  • But clearly,

  • we know that it had not been easy.

  • Sanders Thank you very much.

Welcome to the program.

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