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  • ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY.

  • WELCOME BACK.

  • WE'RE HERE WITH THE AUTHOR OF "BAG MAN," RACHEL MADDOW.

  • WELL, THAT SORT OF GRIFTING FOR HIS POSTPRESIDENTIAL CAREER IS

  • JUST ANOTHER FORM OF CORRUPTION.

  • THERE'S SOME DEBATE GOING ON AS TO WHETHER THERE SHOULD BE

  • INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE ADMINISTRATION AFTER HE LEAVES

  • OFFICE, WHETHER THAT'S THE BEST THING FOR THE COUNTRY.

  • WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE INDICTMENTS OF ANYONE IN THE

  • ADMINISTRATION, OR THE PRESIDENT HIMSELF, OR HIS CHILDREN,

  • WOULDN'T IT BE NICE JUST TO KNOW, THOUGH?

  • WOULDN'T IT BE NICE-- WHAT ARE THE LOOSE ENDS YOU'D MOST LIKE

  • TO KNOW ABOUT?

  • >> OH, LIKE TRUMP MYSTERIES THAT NEVER GOT RUN DOWN?

  • >> Stephen: YES, YES.

  • >> OH, THERE IS SO MANY.

  • ( LAUGHS ).

  • >> Stephen: THE TAXES, OF COURSE, IS ONE GOOD ONE.

  • >> YEAH.

  • >> Stephen: YOU'VE BEEN CHASING THAT DRAGON FOR A WHILE.

  • >> YES.

  • I WANT TO KNOW-- YOU KNOW, THERE'S A LOT OF FINANCIAL

  • THINGS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT THAT I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW, INCLUDING,

  • YOU KNOW, WHY HIS GOLF COURSES MAKE FINANCIAL SENSE WHEN ALL

  • THEY DO IS LOSE MONEY, BUT HE WAS ABLE TO PAY FOR THEM IN CASH

  • AND NOBODY KNOWS WHERE HE GOT THE CASH FROM TO PAY FOR THEM.

  • >> Stephen: WHO DOES HE OH, $415 MILLION TO?

  • >> EXACTLY.

  • THERE IS ALSO THE SMALLER STUFF.

  • THE PRESIDENT IS "INDIVIDUAL 1" IN THE SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW

  • YORK, WHERE HIS LAWYER, MICHAEL COHEN, ACTUALLY DID PRISON TIME

  • FOR THE CAMPAIGN FINANCE VIOLATIONS AROUND THAT WHOLE

  • HUSH MONEY PAYMENT THING.

  • THOSE PROSECUTORS DESCRIBED THE PRESIDENT AS HAVING BEEN THE

  • PERSON WHO DIRECTED THE COMMISSION OF THOSE FELONIES AND

  • WHO BENEFITTED FROM THEM.

  • >> Stephen: UNINDICTED COCONSPIR SOR.

  • >> LITERALLY, AN UNINDICTED CO

  • CONSPIRATOR.

  • I'M SEWER INTERESTED IN THE QUESTION AS TO WHETHER OR NOT IF

  • THOSE PROSECUTORS, IF THEY WANT TO, WHETHER THEY WILL BE ALLOWED

  • INDEPENDENTLY TO PURSUE THE PERSON WHO DIRECTED THE

  • COMMISSION OF THOSE FELONIES SINCE THEY ALREADY PUT SOMEBODY

  • ELSE IN PRISON FOR IT.

  • BUT THERE ARE ALL THESE OTHER MYSTERIES INSPECT.

  • WHY DID-- WHY DID THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN CHAIRMAN SHARE INTERNAL

  • POLLING DATA WITH A RUSSIAN INTELLIGENCE OFFICER?

  • I DON'T KNOW.

  • >> Stephen: COULD BE FOR ANY NUMBER OF REASONS.

  • >> WHO AMONG US HASN'T.

  • >> Stephen: IT'S A GREAT PICK-UP LINE.

  • SPEAK OF CORRUPTION, I WANT TO GET TO YOUR NEW BOOK, "BAG MAN:

  • THE WILD CRIMES, AUDACIOUS COVER-UP, AND SPECTACULAR

  • DOWNFALL OF A BRAZEN CROOK IN THE WHITE HOUSE."

  • AND IT'S NOT WHO YOU THINK, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN.

  • TELL THE PEOPLE WHO THIS IS ABOUT.

  • >> THIS IS ABOUT RICHARD NIXON'S VICE PRESIDENT, SPIRO AGNEW, WHO

  • WAS THE ONLY VICE PRESIDENT TO HAVE EVER BEEN RUN OUT OF OFFICE

  • ON A RAIL.

  • AND HE LITERALLY HAD TO RESIGN HIS OFFICE MINUTES BEFORE HE

  • PLED NO LO CONTENDRE, PLED NO CONTEST TO A CHARGE IN A

  • COURTROOM.

  • AND THE WHOLE SCHEME BY WHICH HE AVOIDED PRISON TIME AND WAS

  • ALLOWED TO RESIGN FOR HIS CRIMES, RATHER THAN FACE PRISON

  • TIME, AND THAT WAS TO KEEP HIM FROM BECOMING PRESIDENT.

  • IT'S SORT OF AN UNTOLD STORY BECAUSE IT WAS SO OVERSHADOWED

  • BY WATERGATE BUT I AM COMPLETELY OBSESSED WITH THIS STORY.

  • AND I THINK IT HAS LOTS OF TRAILING ENDS THAT BRING US

  • THROUGH TO TODAY.

  • >> Stephen: IT REMINDS YOU-- HIS STORY REMINDS YOU THAT THE

  • TERM "BAG MAN" LITERALLY COMES FROM BAGS OF MONEY.

  • >> YES.

  • >> Stephen: I ACTUALLY-- I ACTUALLY KNOW STORIES FROM

  • PEOPLE WHO DID CONSTRUCTION IN BALTIMORE IN THE 1960s AND

  • 50s.

  • AND GOING IN TO GET YOUR PERMITTING, YOU HAD TO GET PAST

  • SPIRO AGNEW.

  • AND HE WOULD LITERALLY SAY, "WE'VE GOT A FEW PROBLEMS WITH

  • YOUR PLAN," AND HE WOULD LEAVE THE OFFICE, OPEN HIS DRAWERS,

  • WALK OUT, AND COME BACK IN AND HE WOULD SEE-- IF THERE WAS NO

  • CASH IN THE DRAWER, HE WOULD SAY, "WE STILL HAVE A FEW

  • PROBLEMS WITH YOUR PERMIT."

  • THERE'S A LEGACY OF SPIRO AGNEW'S CORRUPTION AND HIS

  • RELATIONSHIP WITH RICHARD NIXON THAT LASTS TO THIS DAY AND HAS

  • ACTUALLY INFLUENCED THE LAST FOUR YEARS OF THE INVESTIGATIONS

  • INTO THIS PRESIDENT.

  • IT'S FASCINATING.

  • EXPLAIN TO THE PEOPLE WHY HE ACTUALLY KIND OF PUTS OUR OWN

  • JUSTICE SYSTEM IN A BIND WHEN IT COMES TO THE PRESIDENT.

  • >> AGNEW IS THE LAST GUY BEFORE TRUMP WHERE THERE'S PROSECUTORS

  • INVESTIGATING CRIME.

  • THEY IDENTIFY THE PERP, THE GUY'S IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

  • AND THEY HAVE TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT.

  • AND IN AGNEW'S CASE, THEY HAD TO DECIDE AT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT

  • WHETHER OR NOT HE COULD BE INDICTED.

  • AND HIS LAWYERS ARGUED THAT HE COULDN'T BE INDICTED.

  • HE COULD ONLY BE IMPEACHED.

  • AGNEW ACTUALLY WENT TO THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE AT THE TIME

  • AND ASKED TO BE IMPECHED.

  • PLEASE INVESTIGATE ME AND IMPEACH ME.

  • HE THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE A GREAT IDEA.

  • HE THOUGHT THAT WOULD PUT OFF THE PROSPECT OF BEING INDICTED.

  • BUT NIXON WHO HAS A COMPLETELY OTHER SCANDAL-- WATERGATE IS A

  • TOTAL OTHER THING FOR WHICH HE THINKS HE'S GOING TO LOSE

  • OFFICE-- HE DOESN'T WANT THE WHEELS OF IMP PECHMENT TO START

  • AROUND AGNEW BECAUSE THEY THINK IT WILL TURN AROUND AND IMPEACH

  • HIM.

  • HE SAID I WANT YOU TO LOOK INTO THIS, AND WHAT I WANT YOU TO

  • FIND IS THAT AGNEW DEFINITELY CAN BE INDICTED, SO HE DOESN'T

  • GET IMPEACHED.

  • BUT I CAN'T BE INDICTED AT ALL.

  • COULD YOU DECIDE THAT, PLEASE.

  • AND BECAUSE OF THAT SORT OF DIFFERENCE OF INTEREST BETWEEN

  • NIXON AND AGNEW, AND BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT THEY HATED EACH

  • OTHER AND WERE BOTH TRYING TO THROW EACH OTHER UNDER THE BUS

  • AT THAT TIME, AND THEY WERE BOTH FELONS, WE ENDED UP UP WITH THIS

  • JUSTICE DEPARTMENT POLICY THAT SAYS PRESIDENTS CAN'T BE

  • INDICTED.

  • >> Stephen: THAT'S JUST A MEMO FROM MITCHELL'S OFFICE, RIGHT?

  • THE CONTINUAL AT THE TIME.

  • >> A MEMO FROM THE OFFICE OF LEGAL COUNSEL AT THE TIME THAT

  • THE AGNEW THING IS GETTING FORCED INTO THE COURTS.

  • AND IT'S BASICALLY A FAVOR TO NIXON AND IT'S A MESS, AND

  • THERE'S NO SIGN AT ALL-- WE TALKED TO PEOPLE INVOLVED WITH

  • THAT.

  • THERE'S NO INDICATION THEY MEANT THAT TO BE A CONTROLLING "GET

  • OUT OF JAIL FREE" CARD FOR EVERY PRESIDENT WHO CAME AFTER.

  • BUT IT TURNED INTO ONE.

  • AND THAT'S WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN BENEFITING FROM.

  • THAT'S WHY MUELLER DIDN'T LAY OUT ANY CRIMES TRUMP MIGHT HAVE

  • COMMITTED.

  • THAT'S WHY HE WAS "INDIVIDUAL 1" AND AN UNINDICTED COCONSPIRATOR

  • INSTEAD OF INDICTED IN A HUSH MONEY.

  • TRUMP ORS THAT HE'S NOT IN PRISON OR UNDER INDICTMENT TO

  • SPIRO AGNEW.

  • >> Stephen: THE BOOK IS "BAG MAN.

  • IT'S AVAILABLE NOW.

  • SHE IS RACHEL MADDOW.

  • WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH RAPPER MEGAN THEE STALLION.

  • RACHEL, THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

♪ ♪ ♪ >> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY.

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