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  • and at one point during the meal, they said, You know what happened out in front here?

  • And I said, No, I don't know what happened And they said, Well, you know, there was, Ah, murder out in front and I was like, Really?

  • And they said, Yeah, that's that's what we think John Gotti had Paul Castellano gunned down, and it was kind of my first introduction that there was this life and, you know, Giuliani was empowered then and he was really trying to crack down on the city.

  • But I kind of missed maybe the era that you were there.

  • But I got the tail end of it.

  • And I'm wondering, you know, what does that remind you of?

  • When when you think of those times And the mid eighties was kind of the time of transition, wasn't it?

  • Where kind of the old style was moving away and and it was kind of not like it was gonna be anymore.

  • Is that what's kind of happening in the middle in the mid eighties?

  • Oh, yeah.

  • And, you know, growing up in San Diego, we didn't really have a presence out here.

  • It also, you know, maybe a little bit in L A, but certainly not, you know, down South.

  • But yeah, eighties was certainly a transitional time.

  • You know, Brian, always look at the golden era.

  • The golden years of the mob.

  • Really From the fifties to the mid eighties.

  • That's when everything was happening.

  • We had control of, you know, certainly newer York City.

  • Many cities across the country had tremendous influence in the unions and even into the White House.

  • But natives things started to change.

  • They started.

  • Thio really used the racketeering laws effectively.

  • Rudy Giuliani, you got to give the credit or the blame whatever side you're on for, really using that effectively and certainly made a big transition.

  • The 80 the mid eighties was really the major transition of the mob in the United States.

  • Yeah, and you start in this recent, you know, Siri is called Fear City on Netflix, which I recommend everyone watching on git.

  • It really got me back up to speed is what was happening kind of in the eighties in New York City with the, you know, the concrete rackets and also this new technology that was this RICO statute and how the prosecutors kind of got educated on how to use it, and it completely changed the game.

  • And I know you know, you've been quoted as saying when the guys on the street started fearing the government mawr than they were fearing our life, that's when everyone started flipping.

  • And it was never the same again, was it?

  • No, it wasn't.

  • And that Z, that was the big tool.

  • The big weapon, the racketeering law, the Bail Reform Act.

  • You know, you didn't get bail if you were a danger to community or a flight risk And the Sentencing Reform Act, which gave huge sentences for crimes that before you didn't get that much time for So what happened?

  • You know, they were blocking a lot of people up and saying, Hey, you're really going to cooperate with us.

  • We're gonna put you in jail under the RICO statute for the rest of your life.

  • And you know, a lot of guys don't stand up under that Brian, And that's when you know informants really started to come forward.

  • And, of course, the use of technology.

  • We just didn't keep up with their surveillance techniques.

  • I mean, Brian, they had so much on tape.

  • You know, I mean, really, the whole life was exposed through these secret tape recordings, E.

  • I mean, in the John Gotti case, they had 2000 hours of recordings, and I listened into some of them because we had the same attorney.

  • They were listening to these tapes in the lawyers room.

  • And, boy, they were devastated.

  • Devastating.

  • Wow, What I found fascinating about your city is that before that, they couldn't really touch you, because again, I call it technology.

  • But due to the organization of the family structures, they could never really stick anything of note on anyone.

  • And it always had that way of protecting the bosses.

  • And they were very frustrated.

  • Like you said, I guess from the fifties kind of to the mid eighties, they really couldn't do much about the five families.

  • And it wasn't until the Rico statute, and like you said, married with the Tech and then those big sentences that everything started changing.

  • Yeah, it was very difficult.

  • And remember this, You know, a lot of guys went down for murder for homicide, and prior to the RICO statute, murder was a state charge.

  • It wasn't a federal charge unless you murdered a federal agent or you were on federal land.

  • But under the RICO statute, murder became one of the credit credited acts.

  • So they were able Thio, indict and convict people on murder in a federal system where they were never able to do that before.

  • That was huge for them.

  • So, you know, I mean, I I personally, I don't like the Rico Law.

  • I think it's unconstitutional, but of course I would have come to that.

  • I was indicted twice under federal Rico statute, once under the state.

  • So I mean, I've had my share of Rico.

  • You don't hear You wanna hear something funny about Rico?

  • So I was on interest rate derivatives trader for Bankers Trust.

  • And it was one Liberty Plaza, which was right next to the World Trade Center.

  • And again, I'm 22 years old.

  • I'm on the 33rd floor, You know, I'm on a trading floor and they're allowing me to trade, you know, futures and bonds.

  • And like for me, it was like the time of my life.

  • But funny enough that our bank was later prosecuted on day through the RICO Act at the bank because they had put a couple of different corporations into these fancy derivative trades and the CFOs of those corporations.

  • When the trades kind of tanked, put up their hands and saying, You know, I got talked into this trade and it happened with, like, Procter and Gamble and a couple other companies, and they said there was a system of them doing it to repeated corporate customers.

  • And so they threw Rico at it, which tripled the damages.

  • So, in a weird way, Michael, they used that thing against even the banks.

  • Well, yeah, I mean, that's what happens whenever they create a law like this.

  • I know the law was created by a fellow by Edward DeBakey.

  • I think his name was It was created in 19 seventies specifically to go after the ma and but, you know, you give the government a tool, and they kind of open it up, and they'll use it whenever they feel they could be effective with it.

  • And so they started using the Rico law against you know, any company that they said was a criminal enterprise.

  • They created or made it a criminal enterprise.

  • And then it would fall into the Rico statute.

  • My house.

  • What?

  • What would help while while stop my wife?

  • Yeah.

  • Mhm.

and at one point during the meal, they said, You know what happened out in front here?

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80s MAFIA: What It Was Like Being a Gangster In The Mid 80s & The RICO Conviction - Michael Franzese

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    林宜悉 posted on 2020/11/03
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