Liz Ogbu: So Lisa,

Apple is on target to become carbon neutral

across its entire business and manufacturing supply chain

by 2030.

Can you explain exactly what that means?

Lisa Jackson: Sure.

So today Apple is carbon neutral for all of our own operations.

And we're running on 100 percent renewable energy

for our corporate campuses,

for our stores

and for our data centers.

So we know how to do this work.

The challenge for 2030 is to convert our supply chain,

and that work has already begun.

We already have 70 suppliers,

over eight gigawatts of energy coming online

in our supply chain,

and then our last piece

will be to convert the energy that our customers use

to charge our devices

to clean energy.

LO: What are some of the biggest changes

that Apple's going to need to make in its business operations

in order to be able to achieve those goals?

LJ: So imagine if instead of mining material

to go into Apple products,

we actually started with recycled material.

So we're not going all the way back to the mine

through smelting, transportation, processing.

Instead, we're really talking about reprocessing to some degree

and putting that material right back into products --

super important with things like conflict metals or rare earths.

So Apple has been doing that work now for several years.

We've actually promised

that we want to make all of our products out of recycled and renewable materials.

And so that investment

also means we get to take away all the carbon emissions

associated with everything up until the point of the recycled material.

LO: So it strikes me that you actually hold a really interesting perspective.

You know, you're now at Apple

and, like, deep in the business world around these things,

but formerly, you actually led the US Environmental Protection Agency

under the Obama administration,

so you've seen the government side as well.

What, in your mind, is the right way

to look at the respective roles of the state and the market

in fighting the climate crisis?

LJ: I don't think there's anything that business can do

that replaces the role of government and leadership.

Yes, I ran the EPA,

but the other part of my history is I worked there almost 20 years

before I became the head of the EPA.

And you see firsthand, right,

that only government is really charged with protecting its citizens.

We always think protection, and we think the military,

but I think the protection of the Environmental Protection Agency

or the Air Quality Board in California

or a local health department

is as important to the day-to-day life of the people in that jurisdiction

as anything that the other security-type protection can provide.

Now, business is a different story.

I think business has an incredibly important role to play in leading,

especially at this time.

So when Apple said its goal is 2030 carbon neutral --

obviously the UN is saying 2050 carbon neutral --

we decided to challenge ourselves to go as fast as we could possibly do it

so that other businesses wouldn't have an excuse to say,

"I need longer.

I need much, much longer."

I think it's great to see this moment

where suddenly there seems to be a realization

that climate change policy cannot be foisted on others,

but that, in fact, it has to be organic,

you know, for lack of a better word.

And it's not an either-or.

It's always been this weird, you know, belief that we're taught from little

that you can either be successful or you can do the right thing.

There's no difference between the two; it's a false choice.

LO: Although a lot of us have been talking about justice for some time,

it is only recently that I think

this idea of justice as it relates to the environment and climate

is making appearance in a forum such as this.

You've personally described systemic racism and climate change

as interconnected issues,

and I think it would be great to hear more.

LJ: To me, they're just the same thing.

There is no climate justice without real justice.

There is no climate change remedy that is going to be made and stick

that doesn't involve justice.

And sometimes, more and more, I'm starting to think

that we shouldn't attack climate change,

we should attack justice and injustice,

and if we did, climate change would take care of itself.

For me, it's always come down to

restoring people to the center of the discussion of solutions

and restoring representation

for the communities most impacted by climate change

at the table of solution-making.

LO: Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

It's been a real pleasure to speak with you today,

and I look forward to seeing

how you advanced the efforts you talked about.

LJ: And thank you for the voice you've been.

I think it's super important that leadership look like us,

but also sound like you.

So thank you.