IF YOU'VE READ THE ESPIONAGE

NOVELS OF JOHN LE CARRÉ, YOU

KNOW THAT NO OTHER WRITER TODAY

HAS SO BRILLIANTLY EVOKED THE

SUBTERRANEAN WORKINGS OF

GOVERNMENT, PERHAPS BECAUSE HE

HIMSELF WAS ONCE A BRITISH SPY.

LE CARRÉ HAS A NAME FOR THAT

INVISIBLE LABYRINTH OF POWER.

HE CALLS IT THE "DEEP STATE."

AND NOW AN AMERICAN, YOU'RE

ABOUT TO MEET IN THIS BROADCAST

HAS SEIZED ON THAT CONCEPT TO

DESCRIBE THE FORCES HE SAYS ARE

CONTROLLING OUR GOVERNMENT, NO

MATTER THE PARTY IN POWER.

BUT MIKE LOFGREN'S NO

INTELLIGENCE AGENT, ALTHOUGH HE

HAD A TOP SECRET SECURITY

CLEARANCE.

HE'S A NUMBERS MAN, A

CONGRESSIONAL STAFF MEMBER FOR

28 YEARS WITH THE POWERFUL HOUSE

AND SENATE BUDGET COMMITTEES.

OVER THE YEARS, AS HE CRUNCHED

THOSE NUMBERS, HE REALIZED THEY

DIDN'T ADD UP.

INSTEAD, THEY LED HIM TO

AMERICA'S OWN DEEP STATE, WHERE

ELECTED AND UNELECTED FIGURES

COLLUDE TO PROTECT AND SERVE

POWERFUL VESTED INTERESTS.

MIKE LOFGREN WAS SO DISGUSTED,

HE NOT ONLY LEFT CAPITOL HILL,

HE LEFT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND

WROTE THIS BOOK, "THE PARTY IS

OVER: HOW REPUBLICANS WENT

CRAZY, DEMOCRATS BECAME USELESS

AND THE MIDDLE CLASS GOT

SHAFTED."

NOW, AT OUR REQUEST, AND

EXCLUSIVELY FOR BILLMOYERS.COM,

HE HAS WRITTEN "ANATOMY OF THE

DEEP STATE."

YOU'LL WANT TO READ IT AS SOON

AS WE FINISH THIS CONVERSATION.

MIKE LOFGREN, WELCOME.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE AGAIN, BILL.

>> THIS IS A DIFFICULT SUBJECT

TO TALK ABOUT.

IT WOULD BE EASIER IF IT WERE A

CONSPIRACY YOU WERE DESCRIBING,

BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE, IS IT?

>> NO.

I'M NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORIST.

THIS IS NOT SOME CABAL

THAT WAS HATCHED IN THE DARK OF

NIGHT.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HIDES IN

PLAIN SIGHT.

IT'S SOMETHING WE KNOW ABOUT,

BUT WE CAN'T CONNECT THE DOTS,

OR MOST PEOPLE DON'T CONNECT THE

DOTS.

IT'S KIND OF A NATURAL EVOLUTION

WHEN SO MUCH MONEY AND POLITICAL

CONTROL IS AT STAKE IN THE MOST

POWERFUL COUNTRY IN THE WORLD.

THIS HAS EVOLVED OVER TIME.

>> AND YOU CALL IT THE REAL

POWER IN THE COUNTRY.

>> CORRECT.

IT IS A HYBRID OF CORPORATE

AMERICA AND THE NATIONAL

SECURITY STATE.

EVERYONE KNOWS

WHAT THE MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL

COMPLEX IS, SINCE EISENHOWER

TALKED ABOUT IT IN HIS FAREWELL

ADDRESS.

>> WE MUST GUARD AGAINST THE

ACQUISITION OF UNWARRANTED

INFLUENCE WHETHER SOUGHT OR

UNSOUGHT BY THE

MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

THE POTENTIAL FOR THE DISASTROUS

RISE OF MISPLACED POWER EXISTS

AND WILL PERSIST.

WE MUST NEVER LET THE WEIGHT OF

THIS COMBINATION ENDANGER OUR

LIBERTIES OR DEMOCRATIC

PROCESSES.

>> EVERYONE KNOWS WALL STREET

AND ITS DEPREDATIONS.

EVERYONE KNOWS HOW CORPORATE

AMERICA ACTS.

THEY'RE BOTH ABOUT THE SAME

THING.

THEY'RE BOTH ABOUT MONEY,

SUCKING AS MUCH MONEY OUT OF THE

COUNTRY AS THEY CAN.

AND THEY'RE ABOUT CONTROL,

CORPORATE CONTROL AND POLITICAL

CONTROL.

>> YOU SAID THIS, IN YOUR

JUDGMENT, IS THE BIG STORY OF

OUR TIME.

>> IT IS THE BIG STORY OF OUR

TIME.

IT IS, I WOULD SAY, THE RED

THREAD THAT RUNS THROUGH THE

HISTORY OF THE LAST THREE

DECADES.

IT'S HOW WE HAD DEREGULATION,

FINANCIALIZATION OF THE ECONOMY,

THE WALL STREET BUST, THE

EROSION OF OUR CIVIL LIBERTIES,

AND PERPETUAL WAR.

>> YOU WRITE THAT THE "SECRET

AND UNACCOUNTABLE DEEP STATE

FLOATS FREELY ABOVE THE GRIDLOCK

BETWEEN BOTH ENDS OF

PENNSYLVANIA AVENUE IS THE

PARADOX OF AMERICAN GOVERNMENT

IN THE 21st CENTURY."

>> WELL, THAT'S JUST THE THING.

THE COMMON NARRATIVE OF THE LAST

FIVE YEARS, AND ON A SUPERFICIAL

LEVEL IT'S RIGHT, IS THAT

GOVERNMENT IS BROKEN.

IT'S DYSFUNCTIONAL.

IT'S GRIDLOCKED.

WELL, THAT'S TRUE.

AND THAT IS THE VISIBLE

GOVERNMENT, THE CONSTITUTIONAL

GOVERNMENT WE LEARN ABOUT IN

CIVICS 101.

AND IT IS GRIDLOCKED.

BUT SOMEHOW, OBAMA CAN GO INTO

LIBYA.

HE CAN ASSASSINATE U.S.

CITIZENS.

HE CAN COLLECT ALL OUR PHONE

RECORDS WITHOUT A BUY OR A LEAVE

FROM ANYONE.

HE EVEINWNET

CARRYING A PRESIDENT OF A

SOVEREIGN COUNTRY WITHOUT ASKING

ANYONE'S PERMISSION.

AND NO ONE SEEMS TO CONNECT THE

TWO, THE FAILURE OF OUR VISIBLE

CONSTUTIONAL STATE AND THIS

OTHER GOVERNMENT THAT OPERATES

ACCORDING TO NO CONSTITUTIONAL

RULES OR ANY CONSTRAINT BY THE

GOVERNED.

>> YOU GO ON TO SAY, THOUGH,

THAT IT'S NOT JUST THE EXECUTIVE

BRANCH THAT IS THE HEART OF

THIS, THAT IT'S JUST ONE OF THE

SEVERAL CONSTITUENCIES THAT MAKE

UP WHAT YOU CALL THE DEEP STATE.

>> WELL, IT'S ALL THE NATIONAL

SECURITY FUNCTIONS OF THE

GOVERNMENT.

IT'S THE PENTAGON.

IT'S HOMELAND SECURITY.

IT'S THE STATE DEPARTMENT.

IT'S ALSO TREASURY BECAUSE THEY

HAVE A KIND OF SYMBIOTIC

RELATIONSHIP WITH WALL STREET.

>> FOR ONE THING, THEY CONTROL

THE FLOW OF MONEY.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THAT'S WHY THERE'S SUCH A FLOW

NOT ONLY OF MONEY, BUT OF

PERSONNEL BETWEEN WALL STREET

AND THE TREASURY DEPARTMENT.

THERE'S OTHER ASPECTS OF

GOVERNMENT.

THERE'S A PORTION OF THE

JUDICIARY -- A SMALL PORTION OF

THE JUDICIARY, THE SO-CALLED

FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE

SURVEILLANCE COURTS.

MOST OF CONGRESS DOESN'T EVEN

KNOW HOW THEY OPERATE.

>> TALK A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THE

NEXUS, THE CONNECTION, BETWEEN

THE NATIONAL SECURITY STATE AND

WALL STREET.

BECAUSE THIS IS A THEME THAT

RUNS THROUGH YOUR ESSAY.

>> DO YOU KNOW THAT ABOUT

30 BLOCKS NORTH OF HERE THERE IS

A RESTAURANT THAT WILL SELL YOU

A TRUFFLE FOR $95,000.

ALSO IN NEW YORK, CHRISTIE'S

SOLD AT AUCTION A PAINTING BY

FRANCIS BACON FOR $142 MILLION.

NOW A PARALLEL SITUATION WITH

THE NATIONAL SECURITY STATE.

THE NSA SPENT $1.7 BILLION TO

BUILD A FACILITY IN UTAH THAT

WILL COLLECT ONE YOTTABYTE OF

INFORMATION.

THAT'S AS MUCH INFORMATION AS

HAS EVER BEEN WRITTEN IN THE

HISTORY OF THE WORLD.

IT COSTS $400 BY THE TIME THE

PENTAGON FINISHES PAYING

CONTRACTORS TO HAUL ONE GALLON

OF GASOLINE INTO AFGHANISTAN.

THAT'S A REAL EXTRAVAGANT AMOUNT

OF MONEY.

IN BOTH CASES OF THE NATIONAL

SECURITY STATE AND THE CORPORATE

STATE, THEY ARE SUCKING MONEY

OUT OF THE ECONOMY.

AS OUR INFRASTRUCTURE COLLAPSES,

WE HAVE A TINKER TOY POWER GRID

THAT GOES OUT EVERY TIME THERE'S

INCLEMENT WEATHER.

TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE

ON FOOD STAM

WE INCARCERATE MORE PEOPLE THAN

CHINA, AN AUTHORITARIAN STATE

WITH FOUR TIMES OUR POPULATION.

DOES ANYONE SEE THE DISPARITY

BETWEEN THIS EXTRAVAGANCE FOR

THE DEEP STATE AND THE PENURY

THAT IS BEING FORCED ON THE REST

OF THE COUNTRY?

THAT ISN'T A NATURAL EVOLUTION.

SOMETHING MADE IT HAPPEN.

WE'RE HAVING A SITUATION WHERE

THE DEEP STATE IS ESSENTIALLY

OUT OF CONTROL, IT'S

UNCONSTRAINED.

SINCE 9/11 WE HAVE BUILT THE

EQUIVALENT OF THREE PENTAGONS

AROUND THE DC METROPOLITAN AREA,

HOLDING DEFENSE CONTRACTORS,

INTELLIGENCE CONTRACTORS, AND

GOVERNMENT CIVILIANS INVOLVED IN

THE MILITARY-INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.

THERE ARE OVER

400,000 CONTRACTORS, PRIVATE

CITIZENS, WHO HAVE TOP-SECRET

SECURITY CLEARANCES.

>> AND THEY ARE HEART AND SOUL

OF THE DEEP STATE, AS YOU

DESCRIBE IT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> THEY'RE BEING PRIVATIZED.

WHICH MEANS THE POWER SHIFTS

FROM ACCOUNTABLE OFFICIALS TO

UNACCOUNTABLE CONTRACTORS.

>> ABOUT 70 PERCENT OF THE

INTELLIGENCE BUDGET GOES TO

CONTRACTS.

>> HOW NEW IS THIS?

I MEAN, BACK IN 2010, THE

"WASHINGTON POST" PUBLISHED A

STUNNING INVESTIGATION OF WHAT

THE EDITORS CALLED "TOP-SECRET

AMERICA."

I MEAN, WE HAVE KNOWN

ABOUT THIS, HAVE WE NOT?

>> YES, WE KNOW ABOUT THIS, BUT

THE INTELLIGENCE FUNCTIONS OF

THE GOVERNMENT ARE TOO IMPORTANT

TO OUTSOURCE IN THE MANNER WE

HAVE.

IT'S SOMETHING WHERE ABSOLUTE

DISCRETION IS NEEDED AND

ABSOLUTE TRUST THAT THEY ARE NOT

VIOLATING CIVIL LIBERTIES.

AND TO PUT THIS KIND OF A

BURDEN, IF YOU WILL, ON

PRIVATE-CONTRACT EMPLOYEES IS, I

THINK, BECOME A GREAT

DISSERVICE.

>> YOU SAY THAT YOU CAME TO

QUESTION THIS.

IT TOOK YOU A WHILE.

IT WAS A GRADUAL ENLIGHTENMENT

THAT TOOK PLACE.

YOU WERE DEALING WITH BIG

NUMBERS AND PARTICULAR DETAILS

IN THE BUDGETS THAT ALL OF THESE

AGENCIES WERE SENDING TO YOU

WHEN YOU WERE ON CAPITOL HILL,

RIGHT?

YOU WERE SEEING THE NUMBERS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> AND YOU --

WHAT WAS HAPPENING TO THE

NUMBERS?

>> AT THE END OF 2001 IS -- WE

APPROPRIATED A LOT OF MONEY AND

IT DIDN'T SEEM TO BE GOING TO

AFGHANISTAN, THE APPROXIMATE

SOURCE OF THE 9/11 ATTACKS.

IT SEEMED TO BE GOING TO THE

IULEG.

AND I SAID, "WHAT'S GOING ON