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  • They're paying us an average of about 100 bucks a month, a little bit over that.

  • And so we're making half a 1,000,000 in annual revenue.

  • Everyone today, I haven't interviewed for you guys with a couple who built their start up while traveling.

  • We talked about how they started their company, the Strategist.

  • They used to stay productive while traveling on the text back that they used Thio build their system.

  • Among other things.

  • I personally learned a lot from this interview, so hopefully you will, too.

  • Sort of canny.

  • And that's ah, looks like candy dot io and user feedback tool.

  • And so we help other software companies keep track of feature requests and bug reports from their users that they can build a better product.

  • Right?

  • So actually, I had seen canny before.

  • Really?

  • Yeah.

  • Yes.

  • So what I saw was it's like a list of feature requests where people can like up boat.

  • Maybe don't put to it.

  • No, don't know their cell phone with you.

  • And how long have you be running the company?

  • I think I left my full time job about 3.5 years ago, but I guess we launch canny almost 2.5 years ago.

  • Okay, so that was your job at Facebook as we're going to react with Facebook.

  • Nice software, engineer.

  • And you were designer designer.

  • I worked on a messenger.

  • Yeah.

  • So you left 3.5 years ago.

  • Did you leave out the same time?

  • No.

  • Funny enough.

  • I started an anti left pretty much right?

  • Exactly when I started as you left.

  • Oh, yeah.

  • So I kind of stayed there for my year and 1/2 while Andrew kind of worked on an earlier version of King, I guess on.

  • Then eventually, I left to join him.

  • Yeah, I like to say I recruited, sir.

  • Okay.

  • Did you did you leave Facebook to work on this Start up?

  • Yep.

  • It's different flavor of the start up, and so back then was called product pains and was a community where people can post vote on future requests for any product publicly.

  • And so we had a couple companies using it, and eventually the company's wanted more and more features.

  • And we kind of turned into a sass tool in Reaper.

  • Ended his canny and so, Yeah, I was similar.

  • Definitely.

  • Yeah, I mean, eventually we found that we needed to make money.

  • Ah, hard business on.

  • And the earlier product pains the earlier version Waas very consumer focused on.

  • And so there was not really a business model behind it.

  • And so we basically flipped it into assess tool.

  • And so we charge businesses to pay to use the platform.

  • Yeah, on how were you, like, how could you be so confident that, you know, you left your job just not too comfortable.

  • It felt like, you know, I want to get into start ups.

  • And it felt like the things that I was learning at a big company weren't really relevant to start ups like sales and marketing, including and all that.

  • And so, yeah, I felt like I had had to, you know, take a risk and go do it.

  • You know, I have an idea that I was excited about and yeah, it's turned out great, E.

  • I mean, I think when you're going to start ups, there's there's no guarantee on, and this is our first venture together on.

  • And so there was definitely, like this feeling of you don't know what's gonna happen.

  • You don't know if you're gonna be successful.

  • And it definitely felt that way for a long time with product pains.

  • We just didn't really know where it was going for a long time.

  • Um, and then we made our first dollar or 1st $20 then we were like, Okay, there's something going on here.

  • Um, which brings us here today, right.

  • How long did it take you to, you know, make those first?

  • Yeah.

  • It was, like a year and 1/2 since, like, Yeah, but we were really focused on, you know, we're building a community like there wasn't even a way for people to pay us.

  • And so we're just focused on growing this community with users giving feedback to companies.

  • And then companies started asking for the features and we said, Hey, would you pay for those?

  • And then they said, Yeah, kind of happened naturally, that we turned it into a money making business, which is great because we're bootstrapped.

  • And so we wouldn't be able to really continue doing this the way we want it to without being able to charge those stores and make money off our work.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah, that's really cool.

  • Uh, so It's being 2.5 years since the launch seas along.

  • And like, after that, Like after all that?

  • Because you tell us about how the company's doing.

  • You know, in terms of maybe the number of employees revenue numbers, you don't much care.

  • Sure.

  • Yeah.

  • Um, so we have 450 customers, and those are paying customers, and, uh, they're paying us an average of about 100 bucks a month, a little bit over that.

  • And so we're making half a 1,000,000 in annual revenue, which feels great for food shop company.

  • No, no, outside funding.

  • Half a 1,000,000 is enough where we can support it.

  • Like our business and a team.

  • We've hired three other people on their all remote.

  • So our team is in UK, Estonia and Seattle, and then we're here in Toronto, and, um, yeah, we're really excited about where we are.

  • Yeah.

  • I went to the University of Waterloo, and I studied self fringing, and I I studied in a design program.

  • It was a joint program between York University and shared in college.

  • Um, yeah, it was like a regular for your program, but very, very much graphic design focused unless, like, digital tech focus.

  • Yeah, eventually on my way to doing kind of product is mind you, I design, right?

  • So how did you get into?

  • Yeah.

  • Tons of my friends went to our lead on a sleigh for for engineering and eventually participated in a bunch of hackathons which really opened my eyes to tech and San Francisco in general, on dhe.

  • I just really gravitated towards that and less of what I was studying at school, which was a lot of, like, editorial design packaging, stuff like that.

  • That's more traditional.

  • So I really, really enjoyed that.

  • The the web aspect.

  • And so I just pretty much focused on that and did a bunch of internships.

  • And then eventually, um, yeah, I found my self at Facebook.

  • Did you learn to do what?

  • Stuff like digital stuff on your own?

  • Yeah.

  • Um, school.

  • The school curriculum was behind in those aspects s o.

  • We did have Thio take that on to ourselves.

  • Just having a website.

  • It's kind of a must.

  • So in third year, I think I just kind of said screw it like I'm not really learning how to build a website.

  • I'm just gonna go do this on my own during some summer.

  • And so I just build me a website.

  • And that's kind of how I picked up my front and skills.

  • Yeah, nice eso.

  • After graduating from like those programs, you bullets decided to work at Facebook.

  • I did it.

  • I tried to do a start up for six months and it didn't go super well.

  • My co founder felt some pressure to go get a job, and so it was kind of just be working full time.

  • And I had, like, the Facebook offer.

  • There is a backup option, and I ended up taking it at one point.

  • I think it was a good move for both of us, just to get some, like foundation, like early job skills.

  • But there's nothing really that, like, sets you up for entrepreneurship other than doing it.

  • So, yeah, I'm glad we both got that taste, but now we're like here doing nothing.

  • I think it's super worthwhile, like there's the experience you get of, you know, being ableto put together a project on your own, which you might not get until you have some professional experience and also financially like we probably couldn't have worked on it without, you know, funding if we didn't have a little bit of a financial cushion from working in a big company.

  • Yeah, that's really true.

  • Right?

  • So working out Facebook was, like, very different from what you did.

  • No.

  • 100% different, very different.

  • I mean, I wouldn't say I didn't like it like I really do.

  • Like I really I thought I did good work there, and I really enjoyed the people that I worked with.

  • But it wasn't like I knew from the beginning that I wanted to do my own company someday.

  • And so I made the jump eventually and yeah, it's it's totally different.

  • Same thing for you.

  • Yeah.

  • I mean, I think at a big company like you're focused on this tiny, tiny thing, that's part of a huge, huge picture.

  • And like for me, I didn't really even know how my job correlated to growing Facebook's business.

  • I just was tasked to, like make reaction Native, which was a part of react, a great project used by a lot of companies, and, um yeah, whereas a canny like it's hard to do anything without thinking about the R A y like, how is this gonna grow our business?

  • And if it's not worthwhile, then we don't do it.

  • Yeah, well, your impact a lot more directly.

  • Yeah.

  • And the breath, like, you know, here we're doing sales were doing marketing.

  • We're doing recruiting.

  • We're doing all this stuff that, you know, was totally abstracted away from your job as an engineer at Facebook, which is cool.

  • It's fun to worry about, right?

  • A lot of new things.

  • Yeah.

  • So let's let's talk about you know, how you've been traveling.

  • When did you decide to move out of San Francisco?

  • And why did you decide to move out of it?

  • Yeah, insane is, this was a great place to live if you're working at a big company or if you're trying to raise money.

  • But after we were after, we left our big company and we're trying to raise money.

  • It didn't feel like a great fit for us anymore.

  • It was really expensive, really, really expensive city.

  • And we had always kind of wanted to travel.

  • And, you know, we didn't have an office, wouldn't have employees, would have investors.

  • There's no reason really keeping us there.

  • So we thought, Why not go digital nomads for a little bit And we booked a ticket to London was our first destination just to kind of warm up with traveling.

  • And, uh, yeah, way ended up traveling for about two years after that.

  • Yeah, we're actually just now kind of slowing down a little bit on.

  • We decided to stay in Toronto, So that's exciting.

  • So were you, like, tired of traveling So Hee was sick of it?

  • I was.

  • So I think the biggest thing is loneliness is because we would stay in the city for about a month and move around.

  • And you don't make a lot of friends that way just because even if you do meet people that you like leave immediately after, it's hard to find people who were gonna travel to from city to city with you.

  • And yeah, I just missed, like, being around friends.

  • And so that was a big motivator for me.

  • It was just being coming back and being around friends and having that coon camaraderie that you have, you know, hanging out with people that you know, like, yeah, it's not for everyone, that's for sure.

  • I would continue doing it.

  • But honestly, you like.

  • Andrews made a big compromise for last year's.

  • So thanks eso when you're traveling, Would you like a book on Airbnb for months?

  • Something like that.

  • Yeah.

  • Book flights.

  • Yeah, we wouldn't like it's It's a trade off of you if you book it farther in advance, you get cheaper and better places, but you get less flexibility.

  • If you book a last minute, you get worse places for more money, but you get a little flecks of building.

  • So we would some end up somewhere in the middle where maybe we book it like a month in advance or we look like a couple of our next stops.

  • We'd never try to be like crazy planners, but we wouldn't save it for the very last second so that we could slip in a nice place.

  • And, yeah, we would try to stay in every envies for a month on, you know, usually if you stay for a month, there's a discount.

  • It could be as much as, like, 30 40% off, so you could get some great deals.

  • It makes it very livable.

  • It was definitely way cheaper than living in like San Francisco.

  • Like, I think our average rent split between the two of us is maybe, like, $700 a month for two years, which is pretty portable computer.

  • Most cities.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah.

  • Especially like southeast Asia.

  • You make it over there is just like meals are a dollar.

  • Like it's crazy.

  • So yeah, way travel the world and save money.

  • Yeah.

  • What if you ask, How do you How do you afford to travel so much?

  • It's like we're saving.

  • Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  • I think you have the flexibility.

  • Like I would recommend anybody should, like, try it.

  • Uh, honestly, if you don't like it, just come back.

  • It's not a big deal.

  • And what was he like to try to build a company?

  • Traveling?

  • It was challenging.

  • I mean, we weren't just like, traveling right when we were working full time.

  • And so every day, it's like, OK, where's the cafe?

  • We're gonna find a cafe with WiFi and bathrooms and food and outlets and all that.

  • That could be a struggle.

  • You know, you get to a new place, you get like, you know, we're in ho team in city, and we're like, Okay, where's the cafe?

  • today, and it's just like they haven't got great tea shops and whatnot.

  • But, like that was the ongoing struggle was like finding a good place to work.

  • But we did.

  • A lot of times we work from home and, yeah, I think I think we're well on dhe.

  • What's it been like?

  • What, like what was he like to, you know, work with people remotely?

  • Yeah, we kind of figured it out as we go as we went as we do every thing.

  • Yeah, I don't know, like way had to think about, like, especially for something like customer success or marketing and something that we haven't actually worked in a job like this before.

  • And so we just think about like what we do on a daily basis.

  • You know?

  • We're like, this is how you talk to customers.

  • This is how you support.

  • And then yeah, way Help, um, get awarded to what we're doing on.

  • I would say it was It's been a learning process.

  • It still is a learning process.

  • Like the next time we have somebody were to sit down and think about it really hard about like, Okay, what is this person doing and how we're gonna get make them successful.

  • But yeah, overall, you know, lots of communication early on, and then until people are boarded and then, yeah, we have two weekly meetings.

  • We have a meeting on Monday and Friday where everybody attends and Monday is like, How was your weekend?

  • What you working on this week and then Friday is like, What did you work on this week?

  • What you doing this weekend?

  • It says pretty casual, you know, we don't like a lot of, but I think face time is important.

  • Just keeping in touch with people.

  • Well, you're a boat is really important.

  • So yeah, and as a remote team like, we don't see each other that often.

  • So what we're planning on doing is a team offsite or retreat, or how you like to call it where we bring everyone together in some city around the world for around a week.

  • So we've done two of these.

  • So we did our first win Lisbon in our 2nd 1 in split in Croatia, and then our 3rd 1 is in Denver in September, so just I think it's a great way for your team.

  • Thio, get some like really personal, like hangout time because you just isn't the same When you work with someone and you may see them via video chat, it's a totally different vibe, and we think it's really important for our team.

  • Just connect, like on a personal level.

  • Yeah, they have been really fun.

  • Blast.

  • Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  • Do you think you would have been easier if he wasn't a real team?

  • Like, there's definitely something nice, like be in the same office?

  • Is your co workers work with your core?

  • Could see them every day, But I just think it's like I don't know.

  • It feels like remote is kind of a future.

  • It feels like that's where things were headed and especially for us when we were general digital nomads, it seemed like that was the only company that we could build.

  • Like we're not gonna be like a digital nomad troop of people like traveling together.

  • And so, yeah, I just felt like the company that we had the building a company that we wanted to build, So that's what we did.

  • Yeah, I think a lot of people today you're looking for remote work, and we just have like, way more access, I think.

  • Thio tell it across the world, which is letting a big deal for us when you like.

  • Competition for talent is so high.

  • Um, but yeah, I think just the flexibility of it personally.

  • Like I enjoy working home when I feel like it.

  • I enjoy going to a cafe when I feel like it.

  • I don't I enjoyed not having to go into an office.

  • Um, so yeah, I think it's like I think remote is great.

  • Yeah, it sounds like you really enjoy this.

  • Yeah.

  • Yeah, I think everyone on the team does too.

  • Like people have families and they like to spend time with their families.

  • People like we wouldn't be able to work together because we're in totally different places.

  • So this team is because we're alone.

  • I think now, before we go to the next section about their productivity and their text back, I want to quickly mention this video sponsor.

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  • All right, now, back to the video.

  • How did you stay productive when you didn't have an office?

  • Yeah, I mean way.

  • Never have.

  • We never had an office.

  • So we always had to figure out what productivity means to us.

  • And I think that's really different for everyone.

  • Like even between me and Andrew, like, we have different work styles.

  • Like for me?

  • I really like to go to cafes.

  • I just feel really, really productive when I go to a cafe.

  • I don't know what you might feel a little different.

  • I feel so Yeah.

  • Or like, some days you're gonna work at home.

  • It just depends on your day.

  • today and that in like again remote work just allows us Thio decide when we make up in the morning What we feel like, um so yeah, it's just like, What do you feel like today?

  • What do you need to be productive?

  • Do you need like, coffee?

  • Do you need like lifts and just make sure you have those And I think you're in productive.

  • You're in a productive zone.

  • One thing that we learned from Facebook was like, You don't measure someone's productivity based on hours worked.

  • It's not like, you know, they need to show up at a certain time.

  • Leave it a certain time on DSO for us.

  • We don't really measure own productivity based on how many hours were working or based on, you know, like 9 to 5 kind of thing, like what's important us is our output and that our company is growing and doing well.

  • I think, especially its founders, we feel like pressure, like you were asking, How do you stay productive, right, Like we feel pressure like, you know, at first it was like if we don't work, then our company fails, and now it's like if we don't work Not only does our company fail, but then our team gets disappointed us.

  • And so there's just, like so much pressure just like keep going, moving forward that I couldn't imagine, like, not being productive.

  • But also, yeah, I think I think it's important to separate, like home mode versus work mode, especially.

  • You work from home, you know, like you.

  • You can't just, like, roll out of bed in your pajamas work because then you're feeling like super lazy.

  • You know, you have to take a shower and get dressed like be in work mode when you go to work, if you're even if you work from home.

  • So, yeah, I really think just having that mindset of like going to work, even if you're working from home, is important.

  • All right, on.

  • Are there any like particular tools that you recommend for its name productive?

  • It's an interesting one.

  • I mean, I literally my task list is like in a code editor.

  • You know, it's Adam, and I just have, like, a bunch of boxes, and I changed into check marks when I'm done.

  • But I mean, there's one tool that I use called Q observe, and it kind of tracks.

  • Were you doing your computer and so can help, You know, like, this is how much time you're spending on productive things like, you know, your code editor.

  • And that's how much time we're spending on unproductive things like Netflix and hacker news and whatever.

  • And so for me, I feel motivated because there's a little percentage counter, like in the dock of my Mac that says, like you're like, 81% productive today.

  • You've worked like four hours and 30 minutes of productive time.

  • I want to drive that up like every day.

  • I wanna be like a productive Boston.

  • I like.

  • That was kind of like a little bit of a mental hack on.

  • Uh, yeah, I don't know.

  • On the other side of things, like, I also feel like it's important toe not get kind of two sucked into your screen and stare at all the time.

  • So I have this app called healthier.

  • Um, that I've set to make me leave the computer every hour for 1 to 2 minutes.

  • It just helps me kind of make sure I'm just not kind of deteriorating in my seat.

  • So yeah, that's I don't know if it helps with productivity, but I think it's it's good for just health in general.

  • Right?

  • Um, going to a different topic.

  • Uh, what's the text like that you use for candy?

  • Yeah, it's old JavaScript.

  • And so we've got no react on the front end.

  • Of course, because I used to work on that and then note on the back end for our database to use mongo D B.

  • And it's all hosted on AWS.

  • How did you decide to use those?

  • I mean, really, it's kind of like how many startup I think should be formed.

  • My opinion is like, um it's what?

  • You know what what I knew, you know, I was going to react to my new job script really well, and it kind of makes sense for use JavaScript on the front and, you know, drama school Very well.

  • Why not use it on the back end?

  • Um, for a database like Mongo, Devi is pretty controversial these days, but it's like what I knew.

  • It was really easy to get started.

  • Its work great for us.

  • So far, it'll be the same thing.

  • It's like it's what I do all this.

  • I was just like what I knew.

  • And so that's what we started with.

  • It's worked out.

  • I think it's a pretty common common stock to have.

  • Yeah, it's not too crazy.

  • Yeah, Yeah.

  • Okay.

  • Did you have any, like, difficulties?

  • Any any point, Like building.

  • You know, this product on your like, as hopeless to working at Facebook?

  • Yeah.

  • I mean, I had never built product like I am built side projects, but nothing like to this scale.

  • And so it's definitely been a learning process.

  • You know, now that we have, like, customers, there's, like, security and stuff involved, and we've been learning a lot about, you know, scaling our app up.

  • But remember, like, there's some some significant difficulties when I've been from my client side rendering to service I rendering or like, um, when we went from one server to having multiple service and just like these kind of like 01 steps were difficult.

  • But, you know, we're so much more well put together now that we've got all that stuff.

  • But there's a lot ahead of us, right?

  • So that was That was like, a lot of learning involved, too.

  • Yeah, yeah.

  • Especially like we did service a rendering before next, Jess existed.

  • And so we kind of had just, like, plug a bunch of stuff together because that's how people used to do it.

  • And now that we've got a bunch of stuff plugged together, it doesn't really make sense of terror in part to move next dress.

  • And so that's an interesting place that we're in right on.

  • Are there any like, particular resource is for running JavaScript React?

  • No.

  • Like those tools.

  • Yeah, that's kind of a tough one, because I learned it kind of a long time ago, but, uh, yeah, I mean, so, like, I learned react from joining, reacting, learning it from, but with people like you invented it, popularised it.

  • And so, you know, that's one way to join reaction Facebook.

  • But, uh, yeah, I think like one cool website that I'm really excited about these days is rep elit where you could just spend up like, uh, coding environment for any programming language.

  • Java script node pH, be anything and just start coding.

  • And then you get, like, the output right there, and they support reaction.

  • You could build a website staring, so I think that's really cool.

  • And I'm just, like, hacking around Don't have to worry about, like, setting up your developer environment.

  • I don't know if you can really, like, learn JavaScript.

  • You conduct, like, play around there, But otherwise, just, like, try to build something, see what walls you run into.

  • And, um, yeah, Google it, you know, try to solve your problems.

  • I think a lot of Highland I totally agree.

  • Like, that's the best way is just, like, dive in and, you know, pick a project and try to do it.

  • And when you get stuck, just like stack overflow like, that's the best resource for me.

  • Honestly, when I was learning front and stuff, it was great.

  • And yeah, whenever somebody asks, like about for a book or something, I have no idea.

  • Sorry.

  • That's okay.

  • How is your brother?

  • Yeah.

  • I mean, literally like I was like, I'm gonna build my portfolio website.

  • Um, the 1st 1 was like just vanilla html CSS.

  • But the 2nd 1 I for some reason decided to use wordpress, which a lot of people were using at that point.

  • But I just thought I would extra challenge myself on, and so I don't know.

  • Yeah.

  • I was literally.

  • Just when I got stuck literally Google the problem that I had and it was usually, like the first overflow link.

  • Just click it and I implement it, and it works on.

  • Then, from then on, I remember how to do it.

  • Right.

  • So why in school it again?

  • Yeah, it's It's really a simple is, I think.

  • I guess that works.

  • Yeah.

  • I mean, you're special for front.

  • And where is like, um, you don't you don't need to have all that, like mathematical background and all this logic stuff like, Yeah, I think it's pretty straightforward.

  • All right, s o just one last question.

  • Yeah, eyes there.

  • Anything you want to add to this conversation?

  • Who I would say build side projects, I would say, Like, even if you know your your edible job.

  • Now, start hacking on things like like, especially if you can find someone that you work really well with.

  • I think that's like one of the big things for us was having someone else to bounce ideas off of or like, just go check on certain things.

  • Just go and build stuff honestly, like there's you have free time like, do it and you get a good taste of what it's like.

  • Thio?

  • Um, yeah.

  • Just get started in the start up world.

  • Yeah, I think a big one for us was We made our first dollar before we launched.

  • And so then, by the time we launched, we knew that we could make money.

  • And so I would encourage people who want to start a software business to try to make their first dollar as fast as possible And then, like, they can do that by solving a problem.

  • You can only make money when you're solving a problem for somebody.

  • And so you solve a problem for somebody charging for it and then launch.

  • And it will be a pretty good start.

  • Not saying that's the formula for, like, a $1,000,000,000 company you're trying to get, like a small, soft business off the ground.

  • I think that's the way to do it.

  • No.

  • Great.

  • Uh, thank you so much.

  • Thank you.

They're paying us an average of about 100 bucks a month, a little bit over that.

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