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  • JAKE: Where are we actually--

  • PAUL: OK, glad you asked, because I did

  • think a little bit further than you, since you started driving

  • and you have no idea where you're going.

  • I thought, since we went to the boozer in England,

  • we could, this time, continue the trend,

  • but go to a vineyard.

  • JAKE: Ooh, that's--

  • PAUL: Keep it classy.

  • See now, look at this.

  • Right, I kind of feel like, yeah, all right,

  • like we did the pub before, back in England,

  • but I do think this has a slightly better view.

  • JAKE: How qualified do you feel?

  • PAUL: Not at all.

  • JAKE: Yeah.

  • PAUL: I know you're going through this.

  • I know it's red, or it's a clearish kind of color.

  • JAKE: It's nice, and it's not nice.

  • It's one of those.

  • Very binary with my wine tasting.

  • PAUL: And I have an upper limit of about five pounds, or $8.

  • And if it's more than that, it's probably not worth it.

  • JAKE: Anyway.

  • PAUL: Right.

  • So since we're here--

  • JAKE: Yes.

  • PAUL: --we tend to talk about the web.

  • And today, I think, is no different.

  • I want to talk about libraries and frameworks.

  • JAKE: Ah.

  • Yes, because you're not big on the frameworks, are you?

  • PAUL: No, and neither are you, honestly.

  • JAKE: On the other hand, I am not big on the frameworks.

  • PAUL: Yeah, so I don't think there is going

  • to be much of an argument.

  • But I do want to talk about it, because it bothers me

  • that I perceive that the default state of developers

  • is, I've got a blank page here, how am I going to fill it out?

  • Ah, I need a framework.

  • Which one do I use?

  • JAKE: That is a problem I have with frameworks, that they have

  • a way of starting projects.

  • Like, there's an expectation to use them from the offset.

  • And I think if you're thinking, what combination of frameworks

  • should I use to render this blank page,

  • then I think something has gone wrong.

  • PAUL: Gone wrong.

  • JAKE: Yeah.

  • For me, it's entirely from a performance point of view.

  • PAUL: Oh.

  • JAKE: Well, no, it's not, actually.

  • OK, step one, performance.

  • If your page has to load a ton of JavaScript

  • in order to make a request for the actual data it's

  • going to display, You've lost performance.

  • And you can sort of say, oh, but next time it's

  • going to be cached.

  • It might not be.

  • You might have changed the code, busted the cache.

  • PAUL: And it's an assumption that somebody's

  • going to come back again.

  • Right?

  • Well it--

  • JAKE: It's your goal, I would say.

  • PAUL: It's your goal, but you don't

  • know that somebody's going to.

  • It's like paying a big hefty tax on the assumption you're

  • going to get a repeat view.

  • JAKE: That's true.

  • PAUL: And you might not.

  • You might not.

  • JAKE: Yep.

  • And stuff falls out of the cache all the time.

  • PAUL: Yeah, exactly.

  • JAKE: Not the service worker cache, though.

  • PAUL: Oh, you and service worker.

  • Here we go again!

  • JAKE: Service worker.

  • PAUL: Dun dun dun.

  • One trick pony, Jake Archibald.

  • JAKE: All right, come on, it's got a cache,

  • you can rely on it.

  • PAUL: OK, performance, that notwithstanding,

  • I think for me, it's about code ownership somehow.

  • It's about a level of trust that I don't necessarily feel.

  • And what I want to do is, I want to be

  • able to feel like my application code is the thing that's

  • running.

  • That I'm not running through something else,

  • that I don't necessarily understand.

  • JAKE: Well, running through something else

  • is fine, because that's what a library is, right?

  • You've got--

  • PAUL: No.

  • JAKE: You've got a hold of both ends,

  • and you're running through bits of library

  • that you don't understand.

  • PAUL: Yep.

  • JAKE: But that's fine, because if one of them

  • starts misbehaving, rip it out, either code it yourself,

  • or find a replacement library.

  • PAUL: Yes.

  • But when you're going through something else, to--

  • JAKE: Well, you're in something else,

  • I think, with a framework.

  • And the framework, it will give you scraps.

  • PAUL: (IN A HIGH VOICE) Please, sir, can I have some more?

  • I'd like to work with this application.

  • JAKE: (IN A HIGH VOICE) Yes, can you please send this data over

  • here?

  • PAUL: (IN A LOW VOICE) More?

  • Pfft.

  • Get out.

  • JAKE: But then, you're sat in a tiny bubble

  • of the overall application with a framework.

  • And I feel that to get the most out of a framework,

  • you need to understand how the framework is built.

  • And these frameworks are huge.

  • So it's really difficult to do that.

  • PAUL: They are.

  • I actually feel-- and maybe this is wrong--

  • but it feels to me like it's kind of, the decision is

  • an ergonomics one.

  • Like a developer's saying, my ergonomics

  • trumps the user's requirements.

  • I want to feel like my job is easy,

  • and what the user gets is what the user gets.

  • And my whole approach is very much the other way.

  • I'd rather go the extra mile and all my users

  • benefit than my life is a bit easier

  • and I'll take some of the bad performance,

  • or the tacks of using that framework.

  • So I don't think that frameworks are inherently evil

  • and to be avoided.

  • But I think you want to be able to transition to one

  • and say, yeah, now it feels like we're getting to the point

  • where we're going to reinvent that.

  • And I think you can only do that when

  • you've got to a certain point with the build.

  • JAKE: So for you, it's start light, start with libraries,

  • as and when you need them, and then

  • make the jump to frameworks only if you have to.

  • PAUL: Agreed.

  • [MUSIC PLAYING]

JAKE: Where are we actually--

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B1 UK jake paul framework cache dun performance

HTTP 203: Libraries vs Frameworks (S3, Ep6)

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    andrew posted on 2016/09/04
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