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Hey, it’s Marie Forleo and you are watching MarieTV, the place to be to create a business
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and life you love. There has never been a better time to grow an audience for your products,
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your services, and your ideas. But with all the noise out there, how do we not only stand
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out, but also ensure that our work has real impact in the world? Well, my guest today
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says the key is in finding our authentic voice, and he’s here to show us how.
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Todd Henry teaches leaders and organizations how to establish practices that lead to everyday
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brilliance. He’s the author of 3 books: “The Accidental Creative,” “Die Empty,”
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and “Louder than Words,” which have been translated into more than a dozen languages
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and he speaks and consults internationally on creativity, leadership, and passion for
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work. His last book, “Die Empty,” was named by Amazon.com as one of the best books
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of 2013. His latest book, “Louder than Words,” is about how to develop an authentic voice
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that resonate and creates impact. International bestselling author Tom Rath called it, “One
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of the best guides to living a meaningful life I have ever read.”
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Todd, thank you so much for coming on MarieTV.
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Thank you for inviting me.
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So “Louder than Words,” you guys, I read this cover to cover. It’s amazing. I have
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so many notes. I have, like, things circled and highlighted and things that I sent to
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the team. It’s just brilliant. One of the things that you say that I loved: “Attention
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for your work is not a birthright. To stand out you must develop an authentic, compelling
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voice.” Talk to me about why you wanted to write this book.
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So I’ve noticed over the last couple of years working with creative professionals,
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people in the marketplace, there’s a lot of conversation about building a platform.
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Right? And how can you create a platform, how can you grow an audience, how can you
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get attention for your work? And I think that’s helpful to have that kind of conversation
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going, but I think we often ignore a… I think a more rudimentary conversation we need
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to be having, which is how do you develop a voice that’s worth putting on a platform?
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So I think starting with platform and asking yourself how do I grow an audience, how do
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I grow attention for my work is kind of putting the cart before the horse. I think first we
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have to have the conversation about what is it that I want to be on that platform. Right?
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What do I actually want to get out into the world? What impact do I want to have? I think
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that’s the first and the most fundamental question we have to ask before you even begin
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to think about how do I grow a platform and gain attention.
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I agree with you 100%. So much so. We have the honor of working with tens of thousands
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of creatives through B-School and that’s one of the things. It’s like, “Well, what
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are you taking a stand for? What’s important to you? What is the message that you wanna
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use this platform for?” And that’s why I’m so excited about your book, because
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I think it is the most fundamental and important question and I think for any of us, whether
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we’re just starting out or, you know, I’ve been doing this over 15 years now. These are
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the questions in your book that I continue to ask myself. And I think it’s for people
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that are… have been on the journey for a while and want to evolve their platform. And
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there’s even more brilliance. Again, I have to quote you exactly because it’s so perfectly
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said. On page 151 you write, “You have to allow the idea to breathe, which sometimes
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means engaging in activity that is gloriously inefficient.” And you talk a lot about people
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really don't give themselves enough permission, especially in the early stages, to wander
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around. Can we talk about this? Because I feel like I see so much about this hacking
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and mind hacking and productivity hacking and creativity hacking, and in my personal
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experience there ain’t no shortcuts. You can’t be “efficient” all the time if
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you want to do work that really matters. So what’s your perspective on this?
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I think there’s a real tendency in our culture right now to sacrifice effectiveness on the
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altar of short term efficiency. Right? And you’re right, there’s all this conversation
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about hacking and shortcuts and all of these things. And that can be effective I think
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for some things, but not about the things that matter. I think in the long term, I think
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that we need to be carving out white space in our life, because innovation happens in
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the white space. When we squeeze all of the white space out of our life we’re not allowing
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our ideas to marinate, we’re not allowing them to breathe, we’re not allowing them
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to emerge into their full potential. I think so often there’s a lot of conversation about
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shipping and getting things out and pushing things into the world, and that’s great,
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because I think some people because of a perfectionistic tendency they might hold onto ideas too long
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and never get them out into the marketplace trying to make them perfect. But I think sometimes
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on the opposite side of the equation, sometimes we push things out before we really have asked
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the deeper questions about what is this, what am I really trying to introduce, what change
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do I really want to see through this work or this project or whatever it is? And so
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we push things out prematurely sometimes without asking those questions. And just stepping
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back sometimes to breathe, to create some space around that project, can allow us to
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sometimes make the project exactly what it needs to be in order to resonate.
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Yeah.
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Now, that’s not to excuse not shipping. Right? Because we all have to, you know, we
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can easily slip to the other side of the equation and try to make things too perfect. But, yeah,
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we need to create that white space. Sometimes we need to do things that are very inefficient
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in the short run so we can be effective in the long run.
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I love that. So much of my work, like, I have things that I’ve written, there are projects
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that, you know, something that we have that’s been in the incubation for years. And there’s
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a part of my brain, right, that wants to get it done and get it out there. But I think
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there’s the wiser part of myself that watches it over time and watches it get better. And
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whenever my brain starts to want to beat myself up because I’m like, “Look at all those
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things I’ve wrote and I never use them,” I have to remember, it’s actually part of
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the layering process, that wandering around that gets to the real good stuff. And I haven’t
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heard many people talk about that because it’s just go, go, go, push, push, push,
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so I was so happy that you created this container for us to say, “Yes, you don't have to be
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so efficient all the time and the really meaningful stuff comes when you let yourself wander a
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little bit.”
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It does and you’re right, I mean, success I think comes in layers. It doesn't come all
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at once. I mean, for most people and we, you know, we talk about unicorns, we talk about
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the outliers, the people who just shoot straight to the top. And success often is not as substantive
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and it doesn't last often as much for people who shoot straight to the top. They don't
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have those layers of experience and learning. Their body of work isn’t going to be as
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substantive. Sometimes it is, sometimes, you know, but I think that we have to… we have
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to recognize that it takes time. Anything worth doing takes time.
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Yeah.
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Building a body of work you can be proud of takes time. And a lot of people, like yourself,
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you make it look very easy because you’ve been doing this for a while. Right? And so
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people look at you and they think, “Well, I wanna be just like Marie.” But the reality
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is that it took you a long time to get to the place where you can make it look easy.
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And I still struggle. I mean, I still go back into the writing cave, I still have those
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same fears. Am I gonna have anything worthwhile to say? You know, am I gonna run out? And
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so I think also too it’s really important to have that conversation, you know, this
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is your third book, you know, so clearly this isn’t your first time out of the gate. But
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I think it’s important for people that have been creating well to also say those things.
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I personally never find it easy. You know? Even though whatever it looks like on the
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outside, it’s still, there’s… but it’s good challenge.
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It is. And I think we don’t… that’s the thing. I think we don't talk about the
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struggle. The struggle of making things, the struggle of creating, the battle against ego,
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the battle against pride, the battle against the fear of failure. And we don't talk about
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those things. We show everybody the finished product and say, “Ta da, look what I made,”
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but we don't talk about the, you know, the long slog that we had to walk through in order
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to get to that place where we finally felt some resolution about who we are and what
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we’re doing in the world. And the process of developing your voice is the process of
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walking through that long slog. And it’s gonna be ugly, you’re gonna lose your bearing,
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you know, you’re not always gonna know exactly where you’re going or what you're trying
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to do. But it’s the courage to continue, the courage to continue taking small risks
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day after day and pushing into uncomfortable, unknown places. The people who have the courage
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to do that or the people who eventually wind up in the place where they’re building a
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contributive body of work that really matters and that is ultimately unique.
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Yes. And tagging off of that, one of the other things you talk about that I love is that
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every creative project having a U shape and that so many people misinterpret the bottom
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of that U when they are struggling as they’re being, you know, they’re doing something
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wrong, they’re on the wrong path, maybe they should quit. Can you tell us more about
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that U shape?
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Yeah. So this resulted from a conversation I had with Lisa Congdon, who is a brilliant
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artist. She said that one of her art school teachers told her that every creative project
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has a U shape and it’s like walking into a canyon. Right? So when you’re on one side
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of a canyon and you’re looking across at your destination, you can see the other side
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of the canyon. Everything is clear. I mean, you can see the path and everything, you know,
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because you have a bird's eye view of everything. And then you start hiking down into the canyon
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and you get to the bottom and all of a sudden the bushes are scraping against your thighs
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and the path becomes a little bit more murky and you can’t quite tell where you’re
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supposed to go and you can’t really see your destination anymore. And when you’re
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in the bottom of the canyon and you can’t really see your destination and everything
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is more murky, I think a lot of people start to question their sense of direction, they
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start to question is this a worthy trip to begin with? Should I have even done this?
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Was this wise? And then the sun starts to go down and you hear animals, you know, all
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around you and… at least that’s what I imagine what happens. And you start to get
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afraid and you start to think maybe my life is on the line here. And then you start to
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hike up the other side of the canyon and suddenly your destination comes in view. It’s a long
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way off but you can see it again. And then right at sunset you’re standing on the other
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side, you can see the sun go down, it’s beautiful, totally worth it, it’s amazing,
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you can see where you started. We all go through that as part of a creative process. It’s
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like hiking down into a canyon. And so you start off with excitement and enthusiasm and
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it’s so clear, you know exactly where you’re gonna go. And when you get in the middle…
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and I don't care who you are, I don't care how successful you are, I don't care how many
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successes you’ve had before, how celebrated your work is, it always in the middle feels
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like a slog. It always feels like I’m never gonna get out of this, should I have even
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started this, what if I fail? Especially if you have eyes on you. Right?
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Yes.
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Especially if you’ve had success. In the middle you say, “If I fail, what is this
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gonna mean?” because you feel like the stakes are really high at that point. And I think
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sometimes people think, “Well, the more success you have the easier it gets,” and
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I think it’s actually the opposite. I think that once you have a lot of eyeballs on you
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and people are judging you and looking at you, it, in some cases, becomes even harder.
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So the reality is that everybody feels that way, everybody questions themselves when they
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get in the middle of a long arc project like that. And the only solution is to try to keeps
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your eyes fixed on the direction you think you should be moving and continue slogging
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up the hill. That’s the only way to get through it. And the reality is everybody goes
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through that, we just have to keep pushing forward.
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Love it. Totally love it. The other thing that really resonated for me in the book was
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your stories about DJ Z-Trip and his comparison of the creative journey to climbing a tree.
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Can you share that with us?
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Yeah. So Z-Trip is this brilliant DJ who has kind of shepherded this movement called the
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mashup movement, where he takes rock and he takes hip hop and he kind of mixes all these
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different genres together into one composition. And I was asking him, I was at a concert and
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we were kind of sitting around backstage and I said, “Tell me, how do you… how did
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you find your voice as an artist? How did you develop your voice?” He said, “Well,
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this is what it was like for me.” He said, “So we all have roots. Right? And our roots
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are our influences and those roots grow up into a trunk, into a tree trunk. And so we
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all start as artists, we all start by climbing the trunk. So we’re kind of hugging the
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trunk, our influences, we’re staying close to our influences. And once we get a certain
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way up the trunk we have to decide, am I gonna step out on a branch? Am I gonna move away
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from the trunk? Am I gonna step away from my influences?” And so whether you’re
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a writer, entrepreneur, whatever, we all reach that crossroads. We have to say, “Am I gonna
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step away from my influences and start to find my own thing?” And he said, “So I
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just started stepping out on a branch and I said I’m gonna choose a branch, I’m
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gonna make myself unique, and this is what I’m gonna do.” And so thinking I’m being
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really quick witted I said, “Well, what happens when you get too far out on the branch?
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You get too far out and the branch breaks because, you know, branches are really tenuous.”
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He said, “Well, the thing is, most people aren’t gonna follow you too far out on the
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branch. They might follow you for a while, but if you have enough courage and you get
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far enough out on the branch, people aren’t gonna go out with you because the branch gets
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really thin and they’re afraid it’s gonna break.” “And so what if it does break?”
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He said, “Well, that’s the beautiful thing. Once the branch breaks it falls to the ground
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and it forms a new trunk and then people start following you. They start imitating you and
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now you’re the trunk, you’re the influence.” And I thought that’s a brilliant articulation
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of what the creative growth process looks like. Because we all began by imitating our
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heroes, by imitating the people who inspired us, even closely imitating, emulating. Right?
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Absolutely.
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But at some point we have to be willing to make a decision. We have to make choices to
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deviate from our influences and be bold and be unique. We have to decide. And that word
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decide comes from the root word that means to cut off. I think a lot of times we’re
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afraid to decide because we’re afraid of missing out on opportunities. But the reality
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is, brilliant contributors, resonant voices are people who made the decision to deviate
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from those influences and to carve their own path, to do something unique, and to go out
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on the branch even when it seemed like the branch might break. Right? To push out into
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those uncomfortable places.
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You know, which leads right into where I wanna go next with you, was another brilliant thing
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that you talked about in the book, which I talk about a lot: comparison. You know, we
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all start out having influences and people that we admire and people we look up to and
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we emulate their work. But I think at many points in the journey you can get sidetracked
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if you are constantly looking to the right and to the left and anyone else in your industry
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and you’re following what everyone is doing and you see someone have success with a certain
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strategy or doing a certain thing and you wanna go chase them. You talk about running
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your own race. So I’m just curious whether it’s your own personal experience or experience
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with any clients, what has that been like for you in terms of running your own race?
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It’s a real challenge because I think you see what other people are doing and you see
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what’s working and the tendency is to want to… you’re on this path, they’re on
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this path, the tendency is to want to maybe steer your path over to what you see working
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or to see… steer toward where all the people are, where the audience is, where the eyeballs
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are. A funny thing happens when you’re running your own race: your peripheral vision can
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be a blessing and a curse because if you see people coming up on you and you turn, you
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start looking at them, your body will naturally want to run, you know, toward that person.
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Your body goes where your eyeballs are. And I think the same thing applies in the marketplace.
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I think that peripheral vision can be good because you can learn from what other people
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are doing, you can study them and say, “Hey, is there anything they’re doing I can apply
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to what I’m doing to make myself better and more resonant?” But you don't want