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  • ♪♪♪ ♪♪♪

  • >> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY.

  • WELCOME BACK.

  • MY NEXT GUEST IS THE "NEW YORK TIMES" BESTSELLING AUTHOR KNOWN

  • FOR HIS BIOGRAPHIES OF FIGURES LIKE LEONARDO DA VINCI, STEVE

  • JOBS, AND ALBERT EINSTEIN.

  • HIS NEW BOOK IS "THE CODE BREAKER."

  • PLEASE WELCOME, WALTER ISAACSON.

  • WALTER, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

  • THANKS FOR BEING HERE.

  • >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.

  • I APPRECIATE IT, STEPHEN.

  • >> Stephen: IT'S ALWAYS A GOOD CONVERSATION WITH YOU BECAUSE

  • YOU WRITE ABOUT SOME OF THE MOST FASCINATING PEOPLE IN HUMAN

  • HISTORY, BUT NOW YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT SOMEONE WHO IS STILL

  • ACTIVELY EXPLORING, ACTIVELY DISCOVERING.

  • HER NAME IS JENNIFER DOWDNA, AND WHAT SHE'S FAMOUS FOR, SHE'S ONE

  • OF THE DISCOVER REARS OF THE USE OF KRISPER, THE CODE BREAKER.

  • WHAT IS CRISPER.

  • >> A BACTERIA THAT'S BEEN USED TO FIGHT VIRUSES FOR A BILLION

  • YEARS.

  • THEY TAKE A MUG SHOT OF ANY VIRUS THAT ATTACKED OF A SNIPPET

  • OF ITS GENETIC CODE AND WRAP IT IN A CLUSTERED REPEATED SEQUENCE

  • KNOWN AS A CRISPER.

  • WHEN THEY SEE THE VIRUS AGAIN THEY USE THE ENZYME TO SHOP IT

  • UP.

  • WHAT JENNIFER DID AND THEY WON THE NOBEL PRIZE FOR IT IS TO

  • SAY, WOW, IF BACTERIA CAN DO THAT, WE CAN REPURPOSE IT SO

  • THAT WE CAN TARGET HUMAN GENES AND CUT GENES IN OUR OWN BODY.

  • SO IT BECAME A TOOL TO EDIT GENES.

  • >> Stephen: WELL, THE EXTRAORDINARY THING ABOUT THIS,

  • AS YOU SAID, IT'S BEEN GOING ON FOR, YOU KNOW, A BILLION YEARS,

  • BACTERIA HAS BEEN DOING THIS SORT OF THING.

  • WE'VE HAD THE CONCEPT OF DNA FOR A LONG TIME.

  • WE'VE HAD THE IDEA OF GENE EDITING AS A POSSIBLE MEDICAL

  • TREATMENT OR MANIPULATION OF OUR GENOME, BUT WE HAVEN'T HAD THE

  • TOOL.

  • NOW THAT THE TOOL IS HERE AND CAN BE SO PRECISE IN ITS

  • EDITING, ARE WE HEADING, IN YOUR OPINION, TOWARD A UTOPIA OR A

  • DYSTOPIA?

  • BECAUSE THIS IS THE BEGINNING OF SOMETHING NEW, ISN'T IT?

  • >> ABSOLUTELY.

  • IT'S WHY I WROTE THE BOOK BECAUSE I THINK IT'S UP TO US AS

  • A SOCIETY TO SAY, BOY, WE HAVE TO USE THIS FOR REALLY IMPORTANT

  • THINGS.

  • WE'VE ALREADY USED IT LAST YEAR TO CURE SOMEBODY OF SICKLE CELL

  • ANEMIA.

  • AND EASY GENE MUTATIONS LIKE M.D., CYSTIC FIBROSIS, THOSE ARE

  • THE THINGS WE SHOULD BE USING IT FOR.

  • NOW, OF COURSE, YOU CAN READ BRAVE NEW WORLD AND KNOW WE CAN

  • USE GENE EDITING IN THE FUTURE TO SAY, HEY, THE RICH PEOPLE CAN

  • BUY BETTER GENES FOR THEIR KIDS.

  • SO THAT'S WHERE I GET TO THE DYSTOPIA THAT I HOPE WE DON'T

  • EVER ENCOUNTER.

  • >> Stephen: WE GET BACK TO THE POSSIBLY DYSTOPIAS?

  • JUST A MOMENT, BUT I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS USE OF THE

  • TREATMENT, IN THIS CASE FOR SICKLE CELL.

  • WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND IS I CAN UNDERSTAND USING CRISPER TO

  • ADJUST THE DNA IN A SINGLE CELL -- SAY A STEM CELL THAT HAS

  • A PHRASE I DON'T ENTIRELY URNS CALLED PLEURO POTENCY WHERE IT

  • CAN BECOME ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT CELLS IN OUR BODY.

  • THOSE ARE CHANGED WITH CRISPER, STEM CELLS ARE TAKEN OUT,

  • CHANGED, AND GO BACK INTO YOUR TO DO THE BUSINESS CRISPER HAS

  • TOLD IT TO DO.

  • HOW DOES IT PROPAGATE THROUGHOUT THE BODY?

  • WE'RE NOT INJECTING IT INTO EVERY CELL IN YOUR BODY.

  • HOW IS IT AFFECTING THE CHANGE FROM CELL TO CELL?

  • >> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

  • IN MOST CASES, IT DOESN'T IF YOU'RE CURING SICKLE CELL, ALL

  • YOU HAVE TO DO IS GET THE STEM CELLS TO PRODUCE BLOOD CELLS

  • THAT ARE HEALTHY, AND YOU CAN DO IT IN THE EYE AND FIX THE CELLS

  • IN THE EYE IF YOU HAVE CONGENITAL BLINDNESS AND YOU CAN

  • NOW TARGET CANCER BECAUSE CANCER HAS A WAY OF FIGHTING OUR

  • IMMUNOTHERAPY SYSTEMS, OUR OWN IMMUNE SYSTEM, BUT YOU CAN TURN

  • THAT ABILITY IN THE CANCER CELLS OFF, SO THERE ARE MANY THINGS

  • YOU CAN DO.

  • IF YOU WANTED TO GET INTO EVERY CELL OF THE HUMAN BODY, THEN

  • YOU'VE GOT TO GO A STEP FURTHER, WHICH ALREADY HAS BEEN DONE, BUT

  • IT'S A LITTLE BIT MORE TUBOUS, BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO EDIT EARLY

  • STAGE EMBRYOS OR REPRODUCTIVE CELLS SO THAT IT MULTIPLIES AND

  • BECOMES PART OF A WHOLE BODY, BUT, THAT WAY, IT IS ALSO

  • INHERITED BY ALL THE CHILDREN OF THE PEOPLE YOU EDIT AND ALL OF

  • THEIR DESCENDENTS.

  • SO WHAT YOU'VE DONE IS EDIT THE HUMAN RACE.

  • >> Stephen: MY UNDERSTANDING IS VLADIMIR PUTIN HAS ALREADY

  • INDICATED, YOU KNOW, SEMISERIOUSLY THAT CRISPER MIGHT

  • BE GOOD TO CREATE SUPERSOLDIERS.

  • >> ABSOLUTELY, YOU CAN MAKE SOLDIERS RESISTANT TO RADIATION

  • AND PUTIN SAID WE CAN MAKE THEM SO THEY'RE LESS SUSCEPTIBLE TO

  • FEAR OR THAT THEY HAVE LESS COMPASSION.

  • HE SAID THAT TO A YOUTH GROUP.

  • AND, SO, ONE OF THE BIG FUNDERS NOW OF THIS RESEARCH IS THE

  • DEFENSE DEPARTMENT.

  • DARPA, THE RESEARCH AGENCY THERE, HAS FURNISHED JENNIFER

  • DOWDEN'S LABS AND HARVARD AND M.I.T. TO CREATE ANTI-CRISPER,

  • PRETTY MUCH WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE, IS HOW DO YOU REVERSE IT IF SOME

  • ME NEF LENT ACTOR HAS DONE IT.

  • >> Stephen: WELL, YOU'VE WRITTEN ABOUT SO MANY PEOPLE WHO

  • ARE CONFIDENTLY DESCRIBED AS GENIUSES, WHAT IS THE

  • COMMONALITY BETWEEN EINSTEIN OR JENNIFER DOWDEN.

  • >> WHAT COUNTS IS BEING IMAGINATIVE AND CREATIVE.

  • TO ME, THERE'S ONE TRAIT THAT REALLY STANDS OUT FROM LEONARDO

  • Da VINCI ALL THE WAY TO JENNIFER DOWDEN AS A YOUNG KID

  • IN HAWAII, AND THAT'S JUST BASIC CURIOSITY, PURE CURIOSITY, AND

  • THAT YOU'RE DOING THESE THINGS FOR CURIOSITY'S SAKE.

  • THIS IS HOW BEAUTIFUL NATURE, IS WHICH SUBPOENA OUT OF CURIOSITY,

  • ALL THESE SCIENTISTS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S THIS WEIRDNESS

  • IN BACK TIER DWRA AND TURNS OUT TO BE USEFUL.

  • SO INSTEAD OF PURSUING THINGS BECAUSE THEY'RE USEFUL AND

  • THEY'LL GET YOU PATENTS OR PRIZES, IT'S BEST TO START OFF

  • BEING CURIOUS WONDERING WHY IS THE SKY BLUE OR LEAVES CURL WHEN

  • YOU TOUCH IT.

  • THOSE ARE THE THINGS, FROM STEVE JOBS, AND I MUST SAY, IT'S ONE

  • OF YOUR TRAITS, TOO, I LOVE IT ABOUT YOU, YOU'RE SO CURIOUS

  • ABOUT EVERYTHING, AND YOUR DIRTY LITTLE SECRET IS YOU'RE CURIOUS

  • ABOUT SCIENCE AS WELL.

  • I LOVE THAT.

  • >> Stephen: I DO BELIEVE DISCOVERY IS GREATER THAN

  • INVENTION, AND I ALWAYS LOVE TALKING TO YOU, WALTER.

  • THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

  • >> THANK YOU, STEPHEN.

  • >> Stephen: "THE CODE BREAKER" IS AVAILABLE NOW.

  • WALTER ISAACSON, EVERYBODY.

  • BACK WITH A PERFORMANCE BY SEBASTIAN YATRA AND GUAYNAA.

  • ♪♪♪

♪♪♪ ♪♪♪

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B1 TheLateShow stephen walter jennifer gene sickle cell

Walter Isaacson Hopes CRISPR Gene Editing Will Be Used To Create A Utopia, Not A Dystopia

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    林宜悉 posted on 2021/03/23
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