Placeholder Image

Subtitles section Play video

  • ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY,

  • WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW."

  • HE IS THE NEW YORK TIMES BESTSELLING AUTHOR OF

  • "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN."

  • ON MONDAY NIGHT, HE WILL BE HOSTING "THE BACHELOR: AFTER THE

  • FINAL ROSE."

  • PLEASE WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW," EMMANUEL ACHO!

  • EMMANUEL, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

  • >> MY BROTHER, SO GOOD TO SEE YOU, MY FRIEND.

  • SO GOOD TO SEE YOU.

  • >> Stephen: YOU'RE ONE OF THE FEW GUESTS WE HAVE ACTUALLY HAD

  • TWICE IN COVID.

  • THIS IS HOW LONG IT'S BEEN GOING ON.

  • THE LAST TIME YOU WERE HERE, WE WERE TALKING ABOUT

  • "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN" AND

  • UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS IN GENERAL.

  • AND WHILE TALKING ABOUT SYSTEMIC RACISM AS A WHITE MAN CAN BE

  • UNCOMFORTABLE, I DON'T MEAN TO DISAPPOINT YOU, BUT YOU'RE

  • ACTUALLY VERY COMFORTABLE TO TALK TO.

  • I HOPE THAT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE A FAILURE TO YOU.

  • >> OH, IT'S A CATCH-22.

  • I LURE YOU IN BY SAYING IT WILL BE UNCOMFORTABLE, BUT ONCE

  • YOU'RE HERE, STEPHEN, IT'S ALL COMFORT, MY FRIEND.

  • >> Stephen: THIS SUMMER, YOU LAUNCHED A WEB SERIES TO TALK

  • ABOUT RACE IN AMERICA.

  • AT THAT POINT, WHEN WE WERE TALKING THIS SUMMER, DID YOU, IN

  • YOUR WILDEST DREAMS, THINK YOU WOULD BE HOSTING "THE BACHELOR"

  • THE NEXT TIME WE TALKED?

  • >> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

  • THAT IS THE CRAZIEST OF STORIES THAT "UNCOMFORTABLE

  • CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK MAN" A BOOK ABOUT RACIAL

  • RECONCILIATION WILL LEAD YOU-- LEAD ME-- TO NOW HOSTING THE

  • MOST-UNCOMFORTABLE EPISODE OF ONE OF THE MOST-WATCHED SHOWS IN

  • OUR RECENT HISTORY.

  • MIND BLOWING.

  • >> Stephen: IT IS ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE.

  • LET'S GET TO THAT.

  • "THE BACHELOR" IS ALWAYS FULL OF DRAMA, OBVIOUSLY.

  • BUT THIS SEASON WAS PARTICULARLY DRAMATIC.

  • THERE WAS CONTROVERSY OFF SCREEN.

  • FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW, CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED, AND

  • WHY PEOPLE WERE SO UPSET?

  • >> TWO-FOLD.

  • FIRST AND FOREMOST, THIS SEASON WAS THE FIRST BLACK BACHELOR,

  • MATT JAMES.

  • THAT'S NO SMALL FEAT.

  • 20 SEASONS AND WE NOW HAVE OUR FIRST BLACK BACHELOR-- OVER 20

  • SEASONS, IN FACT.

  • BUT ALSO, ONE OF HIS FINAL THREE FRONT-RUNNERS, RACHEL, SHE WAS

  • PICTURED AT AN ANTEBELLUM-STYLE PLANTATION ON SOCIAL MEDIA IN

  • 2018.

  • AND THOSE PICTURES RESURFACED.

  • SHE IS A WHITE WOMAN, OBVIOUSLY, AND SO YOU HAVE MATT JAMES, A

  • BLACK MAN, ONE OF HIS FINAL FRONT-RUNNERS, RACHEL, HAS THESE

  • PICTURES SURFACE, THESE RACIALLY INSENSITIVE PICTURES.

  • IMAGINE HOW CONVOLUTED AND VOLATILE THIS TOPIC IS BECAUSE

  • YOU'RE DEALING WITH LOVE AND YOU'RE ALSO DEALING WITH RACE

  • AND RACIAL INSENSITIVITY.

  • >> Stephen: OKAY, AND THIS IS-- AND I BELIEVE, IF I'M NOT

  • MISTAKEN, THESE ARE LIKE A-- QUOTE, UNQUOTE-- OLD SOUTH DAYS.

  • IT'S PEOPLE IN HOOP SKIRTS.

  • IT'S ACTUALLY RCREATING THE LOOK, IF NOT THE ENVIRONMENT

  • OF-- OF AN OLD SOUTH PLANTATION.

  • >> CORRECT.

  • ANTEBELLUM SOUTH PLANTATION IS THE PROPER TERM.

  • FOR THOSE AT HOME WONDERING, REMEMBER ANTEBELLUM IN LATIN

  • MEANS "BEFORE THE WAR," THE WAR IN QUESTION, THE CIVIL WAR THAT

  • FREED THE SLAVES.

  • SHE IS PICTURED IN ATTIRE CELEBRATING, IF YOU WILL, BACK

  • IN 2018, FOR WHICH SHE HAS SINCE APOLOGIZED, BUT SHE IS PICTURED

  • IN ATTIRE OF OLD SOUTH ANTEBELLUM PLANTATION, A

  • CELEBRATION, IF YOU.

  • THAT'S AT LEAST HOW IT LOOKS.

  • >> Stephen: AND, YOU KNOW, A CELEBRATION AND, ALSO, AT THE

  • VERY LEAST, A WILLFUL IGNORANCE ABOUT THE TRAGEDY ASSOCIATED

  • WITH THAT ENTIRE CULTURE.

  • OKAY, SO, THERE'S THE ORIGINAL SCANDAL, OR THERE'S THE ORIGINAL

  • PROBLEM.

  • NOW LET'S TALK ABOUT CHRIS HARRISON.

  • HOW DID THAT COME ABOUT?

  • FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T KNOW THAT STORY, WHAT HAPPENED THERE

  • THAT HAS NOW PUT YOU IN THE HOSTING POSITION?

  • >> YEAH, SO CHRIS HARRISON, WHO HAS BEEN THE HOST FOR 20 YEARS

  • AND HAS RECENTLY STEPPED ASIDE DURING THIS MOMENT, HE TRIED TO

  • GO TO THE DEFENSE OF RACHEL IN AN INTERVIEW WITH RACHEL

  • LINDSEY, AND CHRIS HARRISON, HE WAS-- AS HE WOULD ADMIT-- WAS

  • IGNORANT AND WAS ARROGANT IN SAYING THAT, WELL, IN 2018, WHAT

  • RACHEL DID WASN'T THAT BAD."

  • CHRIS HARRISON'S WORDS, NOT NECESSARILY MY OWN.

  • AND "WE'VE ALL KIND OF ACKNOWLEDGED AND CALLED TO THE

  • ATTENTION."

  • NO, NO, NO, IN 2018, IT WAS JUST AS BAD.

  • WE ARE MORE AWARE NOW, BUT 2018, ACKNOWLEDGING AND DRESSING IN

  • THE ATTIRE OF AN ANTEBELLUM SOUTH PLANTATION IS JUST AS BAD

  • AS IT IS RIGHT NOW TODAY.

  • >> Stephen: I THINK THAT IS SAFE TO SAY, THOSE ARE HIS WORDS

  • NOT YOURS.

  • >> VERY SAFE TO SAY.

  • >> Stephen: HERE WE ARE.

  • SO HE STEPS ASIDE TEMPORARILY FROM THOSE DUTIES.

  • DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION ABOUT WHETHER HE SHOULD BE DISMISSED

  • FOR GOOD FOR THIS?

  • OR IS THIS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR EDUCATION AND REDEMPTION FOR

  • SOMEONE?

  • >> YEAH, I DON'T BELIEVE IN CANCEL CULTURE.

  • I DO BELIEVE IN ACCOUNTABILITY.

  • AND SO, I THINK THAT RIGHT NOW, HE IS TAKING ACCOUNTABILITY FOR

  • HIS ACTIONS.

  • FOR EVERY ACTION THERE'S AN EQUAL AND OPPOSITE REACTION.

  • THAT CAN BE A LAW OF NEWTON OR BASIC COMMON SENSE.

  • HE HAD AN ACTION AND IS CURRENTLY DEALING WITH THE

  • REACTION FROM THAT.

  • SHOULD HE RETURN TO THAT ROLE?

  • YOU HAVE TO DECIDE WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF CHRIS HARRISON?

  • WHAT'S IN THE BEST OF THE SHOW AND THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCERS.

  • BUT, ALSO, WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE CAST?

  • YOU KNOW, THEY'RE TRYING TO COMMIT TO DIVERSITY.

  • YOU HAD YOUR FIRST BLACK BACHELOR.

  • WHAT'S IN THE BEST INTEREST OF ALL THREE OF THOSE PRIMARY

  • PARTIES AT PLAY AND MAKE THE DECISION THAT SERVES THE MOST

  • GOOD.

  • >> Stephen: AS YOU SAID, IT WAS AFTER 20 SEASONS-- 23

  • SEASONS, SOMETHING LIKE, THAT BEFORE YOU HAD THE FIRST BLACK

  • BACHELOR, AND WHEN YOU HAD THE FIRST BACHELORETTE.

  • DO YOU THINK THESE SHOWS SHOULD MORE ACCURATELY REFLECT REALITY

  • IN AMERICA?

  • YOU KNOW, THE REALITY THAT WE ALL LIVE OF-- OF A DIVERSE

  • CULTURE OF 20 DRUNK WOMEN LIVING IN ONE HOUSE TRYING TO GET ONE

  • GUY TO MARRY THEM-- YOU KNOW, THE REALITY OF AMERICA

  • ( LAUGHS ) >> OH, YOU ARE A FOOL, MY

  • FRIEND.

  • >> Stephen: I TAKE THAT AS A COMPLIMENT.

  • BUT-- YOU KNOW, IT IS-- BECAUSE THE REASON I ASK IS THAT

  • DIVERSITY IS A WONDERFUL THING.

  • ARE THESE SHOWS ESSENTIALLY FANTASY TO BEGIN WITH?

  • ARE WE PUTTING TOO MUCH WEIGHT ON A REALITY SHOW?

  • >> SO, HERE IS THE ISSUE AT HAND.

  • THIS SHOW, "THE BACHELOR" AND "THE BACHELORETTE," THEY ARE

  • SUPPOSED TO BE THE UTOPIAN RELATIONSHIP IN AMERICA.

  • BUT IF FOR 20 SEASONS ALL WE SEE IS A WHITE MALE LEAD, IF FOR 13

  • SEASONS ALL WE SEE IS A WHITE FEMALE LEAD, THEN WHAT IS A

  • UTOPIAN DEPICTION OF LOVE IN AMERICA?

  • AS ME, AS A BLACK PERSON, I'M LOOKING AT THAT SHOW AND SAYING,

  • "WHERE DO I FIT IN?

  • WHERE I DO BELONG?" SO I THINK WE ALL HAVE TO COMMIT

  • BOTH IN SHOWS LIKE "THE BACHELOR" AND "THE

  • BACHELORETTE," AND IN OUR SOCIETY OF MORE ACCURATELY

  • REPRESENTING THE WHOLE, MORE ACCURATELY SERVING EVERYONE.

  • HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

  • YOU DON'T JUST DO IT BY WHO YOUR LEAD CHARACTER IS, BUT WHO IS

  • CASTING?

  • WHO ARE YOUR PRODUCERS?

  • IS THERE DIVERSITY ACROSS EVERY BOARD, MY FRIEND.

  • >> Stephen: OKAY, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE "AFTER THE ROSE" SHOW

  • THAT YOU'RE HOSTING.

  • I KNOW YOU CAN'T TELL US WHO GOT PICKED OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

  • I'M NOT TRYING TO, LIKE, SQUEEZE THAT OUT OF YOU--

  • >> IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE.

  • IT SOUNDS LIKE YOU ARE.

  • >> Stephen: JUST GIVE ME A SCALE OF THE DRAMA.

  • ON A SCALE OF ONE TO 10, WHERE IS THE DRAMA ON THIS ONE?

  • >> I CAN FERVENTLY SAY THIS WILL BE THE MOST UNCOMFORTABLE

  • CONVERSATION IN BACHELOR FRANCHISE HISTORY.

  • WHY?

  • BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND --

  • >> Stephen: BECAUSE EMMANUEL ACHO IS WILLING TO HAVE THAT

  • UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATION.

  • >> LOOK, THOUGH, STEPHEN, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND.

  • YOU'RE NOW MIXING LOVE-- WHICH IS ONE OF THE STRONGEST

  • EMOTIONS-- ALONG WITH RACIAL TENSION, WHICH IS ONE OF THE

  • MOST TOXIC AND VOLATILE TOPICS OF OUR CURRENT DAY.

  • LIKE, YOU'RE MIXING TWO INCREDIBLY STRONG AND VOLATILE

  • SUBJECT MATTERS, AND WEAVING THEM TOGETHER IN ONE FINAL

  • HOUR-LONG EPISODE AFTER THE CULMINATION OF THE SHOW.

  • IT BREEDS DISCOMFORT, AND I'M SO THRILLED TO BE A PART OF IT.

  • >> Stephen: I'LL WATCH.

  • I'LL WATCH.

  • OKAY.

  • JUST AS A FAN, I'VE GOT TO KNOW, ARE YOU A BACHELOR GUY OR A

  • "BACHELORETTE" GUY?

  • BECAUSE I-- "BACHELOR," QUALITY SHOW.

  • "BACHELORETTE," I REALLY ENJOY, LIKE, THE 20, YOU KNOW,

  • GREASED-UP MEAT SLABS FLEXING ON EACH OTHER.

  • THAT'S WHAT I REALLY LIKE.

  • THAT'S MY FAVORITE.

  • I-- I'M HERE FOR IT.

  • >> I'M GOING TO SAY I'M A "BACHELORETTE" GUY BECAUSE I

  • LIKE SEEING THE MEN HAVE TO COMPETE AND SEEING ALL THEIR

  • EGOS GET INVOLVED.

  • >> Stephen: SURE.

  • >> THEY GET SENSITIVE AND ALL THESE MACHO MEN GET THEIR HEARTS

  • BROKEN AND WHATNOT.

  • I PREFER IT THAT WAY.

  • >> Stephen: NOW, YOU WOULD MAKE A GREAT BACHELOR ON "THE

  • BACHELORETTE" COMPETING WITH THE OTHER GUYS.

  • HAVE YOU-- HAVE YOU-- WOULD YOU DO THE SHOW?

  • >> DUDE, TRUE STORY, TRUE STORY.

  • I'VE SAID IT BUT NEVER THIS PUBLICLY.

  • I WAS ASKED TO DO THE SHOW THREE TIMES NOW.

  • IN 2018, THEN LATER IN 2018 FOR WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HANNAH

  • BROWN SEASON, AND THE BEGINNING OF 2020, I WAS AGAIN APPROACHED

  • ABOUT DOING THE SHOW.

  • AND I TURNED IT DOWN ALL THREE TIMES.

  • AND LOOK -- >> Stephen: WHY!

  • YOU WOULD HAVE BEEN AN AUDIENCE FAVORITE!

  • >> I'D LIKE TO KEEP MY PUBLIC LIFE PUBLIC, AND MY PRIVATE LIFE

  • PRIVATE.

  • >> Stephen: ALL RIGHT, OKAY.

  • SO ONE OTHER THING YOU'RE NOT GOING TO TELL ME ABOUT IS YOU'RE

  • NOT GOING TO TELL ME WHO GOT PICKED.

  • AND I WON'T EVEN SAY...

  • WHO YOU WOULD PICK BETWEEN THE TWO FINALISTS, WHICH ARE RACHEL

  • AND MICHELLE.

  • BUT DO YOU HAVE AN OPINION?

  • DO YOU HAVE A CHOICE IN YOUR MIND IF YOU HAD TO PICK?

  • >> I MEAN, IT'S INTERESTING, RIGHT, RACHEL IS CURRENTLY

  • DEALING WITH ALL OF THIS RACIALLY TENSE CONTROVERSY.

  • SO THAT WOULD KIND OF, OBVIOUSLY, SKEW MY DECISION AS A

  • BLACK MAN, IF I ALREADY KNEW ABOUT SAID CONTROVERSY.

  • BUT I THINK WHAT'S SO INTERESTING IS WATCHING BOTH OF

  • THE LOVE CONNECTIONS PLAY OUT.

  • I THINK MATT AND RACHEL HAVE AN INCREDIBLE CONNECTION, JUST

  • INFECTION.

  • MATT ADMITTED HE WAS FALLING FOR RACHEL FIRST.

  • AND MICHELLE AND MATT THEY REALLY VIBE AND WE SAW IT AND

  • CONTINUE TO SEE IT OVER THE COURSE OF THE SEASON.

  • I CAN'T SPEAK FOR MICHELLE-- FOR MATT, RATHER.

  • BUT I'M EXCITED TO WATCH IT PLAY OUT.

  • >> Stephen: ME, TOO.

  • AND I'M ALSO EXCITING ABOUT YOUR NEW BOOK.

  • IT'S A-- IT'S A FOLLOW-UP TO "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS

  • WITH A BLACK MAN."

  • AND IT'S "UNCOMFORTABLE CONVERSATIONS WITH A BLACK BOY."

  • WHO IS THIS BOOK FOR?

  • >> STEPHEN WHEN I WAS AN ADOLESCENT, I ALWAYS HEARD,

  • "EMMANUEL YOU'RE LIKE AN OREO-- WHITE ON THE INSIDE, BLACK ON

  • THE OUTSIDE."

  • I DIDN'T REALIZE HOW OFFENSIVE THAT WAS BECAUSE MY WHITE

  • FRIEND, WHEN I WAS YOUNG WERE SAYING, "EMMANUEL, YOU'RE TOO

  • SMART TO BE BLACK."

  • OR "YOU DRESS TOO WELL TO BE BLACK."

  • SM I HAD AN IDENTITY COMPLEX.

  • SO THIS BOOK IS FOR OUR YOUNG ADULTS.

  • THINK AGES 12-16, 10-14, BECAUSE IF WE CAN FIX THE NEXT

  • GENERATION OF IGNORANCE, IF WE CAN FIX THE NEXT GENERATION OF

  • INSENSITIVITY, THEN WE CAN CURE THE PROBLEM AT THE ROOT.