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  • ♪ ♪ ♪ >> Stephen: HEY, EVERYBODY,

  • WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW."

  • I'M REALLY EXCITED TO CHECK IN WITH JON BATISTE TONIGHT.

  • JON, HELLO.

  • >> Jon: WHAT'S HAPPENING, STEPHEN.

  • >> Stephen: WHAT'S HAPPENING IS YOU HAVE TO LET ME KNOW WHEN

  • THERE ARE BIG EVENTS GOING ON WITH JON BATISTE.

  • I HAD TO FIND OUT ABOUT THIS ONLINE.

  • LOOK WHAT IS COMING OUT DECEMBER 17, NEXT THURSDAY.

  • IT IS AVAILABLE FOR PREORDER NOW.

  • IT IS THE DISNEY PIXAR SOUL BY JON BATISTE.

  • IT'S WON TWO ALBUMS THAT ARE COME, OUT WITH THAT MOVIE.

  • WHAT-- WHAT CAN WE SCPOCT THIS, JON?

  • WHAT'S GOING ON.

  • >> Jon: OH, MY GOODNESS.

  • THERE IS SO MUCH MUSIC IN THE FILM.

  • TRENT,, AT CUSS AS WELL AS MYSELF.

  • I'M SO GLAD IT'S COMING OUT.

  • IT WILL UPLIFT PEOPLE WHEN THEY SEE IT.

  • >> Stephen: THIS MUSIC FROM AND INSPIRED BY WILL THE FILM,

  • AND I UNDERSTAND YOU DID THE COMPOSITIONS AND THE

  • ARRANGEMENTS OF ALL THE SONGS ON THIS ALBUM.

  • >> Jon: YES, I HAD A BAND IT'S OLDEST PERSON IN THE BAND IS ROY

  • HAINES, WHO WAS A GUEST ON OUR SHOW.

  • HE WAS 95 WHEN WE RECORDED THIS RECORD.

  • >> Stephen: WAS HE THE ONE PLAYING THE DEEP BASS?

  • >> Jon: HE WAS PLAYING THE DRUMS.

  • IT WAS-- HE PLAYED THE DRUMS WITH JOE.

  • AND HE WAS THERE-- HE WAS 92 AT THE TIME.

  • HE WAS ON OUR SHOW.

  • >> Stephen: YOU WERE ALSO A CULTURAL CONSULTANT ON THE FILM.

  • WHAT DID THAT JOB ENTAIL?

  • >> Jon: JUST TALKING ABOUT THE WAY THAT MUSICIANS LIVE IN THE

  • WORLD AND THE WAY THAT WE PLAY TOGETHER, SO IT CAN FEEL VERY

  • AUTHENTIC WHEN YOU WATCH IT AND NOT SEEM LIKE-- YOU KNOW, WHEN

  • YOU SEE MUSIC IN FILM SOMETIMES, IT DOESN'T FEEL REAL.

  • SO I WANTED TO GIVE THEM THE REAL VIBES, YOU KNOW.

  • >> Stephen: JON BATISTE, EVERYBODY.

  • THE ALGUM BUM IS "SOUL" GO GET IT.

  • THANKS, JON.

  • MY FIRST GUEST IS AN AUTHOR AND EMMY-WINNING JOURNALIST WHO

  • HOSTS "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW."

  • HER LATEST BOOK IS CALLED "BAG MAN."

  • PLEASE WELCOME TO "A LATE SHOW," RACHEL MADDOW.

  • RACHEL GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

  • >> STEPHEN, IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

  • THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

  • >> Stephen: IT IS ALWAYS A BIT OF A VACATION FOR ME TO HAVE YOU

  • ON THE SHOW BECAUSE YOU'RE SUCH A CHAMPION TALKER THAT I CAN SIT

  • BACK AND JUST WATCH YOU TAKE APART THE STORIES OF THE DAY.

  • IT'S REALLY DELIGHTFUL.

  • BEFORE I GET STARTED, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU-- A FEW WEEKS AGO

  • YOU GAVE A POWERFUL BROADCAST FROM YOUR HOME ABOUT HOW YOUR

  • PARTNER, SUSAN, HAD CONTRACTED COVID.

  • FIRST OF ALL, HOW IS SHE DOING?

  • IS SHE ALL RIGHT?

  • >> SHE IS OKAY.

  • SHE GOT-- SHE HAD A, YOU KNOW, REAL CASE OF IT.

  • AND LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAD SYMPTOMATIC CASES, SHE'S GOT

  • KIND OF THE LONG TAIL OF THE SYMPTOMS, WHICH IS TRUE FOR

  • ALMOST EVERYBODY I KNOW THAT HAS HAD IT.

  • SHE'S GOT THE FATIGUE AND THE HEADABES AND COUGH LINGERING.

  • BUT SHE IS OUT OF WOODS IN TERMS OF US BEING SCARED THAT SHE

  • COULD TAKE A DOWNTURN.

  • SHE'S GOING TO BE FINE.

  • IT'S BEEN A BEAR TO DEAL WITH.

  • IT WAS THE SCARIEST THING I'VE EVER BEEN THROUGH IN MY LIFE,

  • BUT SHE'S GOING TO BE OKAY.

  • >> Stephen: HOW HAS THAT CHANGED YOUR COVERAGE OF COVID

  • NOW THAT IT'S BEEN IN YOUR OWN HOME WITH-- WITH YOUR DEAREST

  • ONE?

  • >> IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

  • I MEAN, I THINK...

  • I MEAN, IF I'M HONEST ABOUT IT, THIS PROBABLY SOUNDS A LITTLE

  • BIT ACADEMIC, BUT THE REACTION TO ME TALKING ABOUT THAT ON THE

  • AIR, TO ME SAYING, "LISTEN, I TAKE THIS AS SERIOUSLY AS

  • ANYBODY, BUT I JUST REALIZED THAT I WASN'T THAT SCARED ABOUT

  • GETTING IT MYSELF, BUT SEEING SUSAN SUFFERING WITH IT, IS THE

  • SCARIEST THING IN MY LIFE, AND I WOULD NOW DO ANYTHING TO PREVENT

  • THAT SORT OF RISK TO HER."

  • ME PUTTING IT OUT THERE, THE WAY PEOPLE RESPONDED TO THAT MADE ME

  • SORT OF REALIZE THAT I THINK WE NEED TO PAY CLOSER ATTENTION TO

  • WHAT MOTIVATES PEOPLE AND THEIR BEHAVIOR AROUND RISK.

  • IT'S-- YOU KNOW, IT'S ONE THING TO JUST SAY, "DON'T DO IT.

  • THAT'S DANGEROUS.

  • DON'T DO IT.

  • THAT'S POTENTIALLY GOING TO GET YOU INTO TROUBLE.

  • NO, NO, NO, NO, NO."

  • IT'S ANOTHER THING TO UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE TAKE RISKS FOR A

  • REASON.

  • IT'S HUMAN NATURE.

  • IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU A BAD PERSON.

  • BUT FOR ME IT WAS REVEALATORY THAT I CARE A LOT MORE ABOUT MY

  • PARTNER AND HER SAFETY THAN I DO ABOUT MYSELF.

  • I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT SAYS ABOUT ME PSYCHOLOGICALLY, BUT I

  • REALIZED THAT WAS THE MOTIVATIONAL TRIP FOR ME.

  • AND IT MADE ME REALIZE WE HAVE TO SOR OF THINK ABOUT WHAT

  • MOVES PEOPLE MORE THAN WE ALREADY HAVE BEEN, ESPECIALLY

  • NOW THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THIS VACCINE.

  • WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WILL MOTIVATE PEOPLE

  • TO DO THE RIGHT THING AROUND THE VACCINATION PROGRAM.

  • >> Stephen: LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE

  • ADMINISTRATION OF OUR PUBLIC HEALTH AND, EVENTUALLY, THE

  • ADMINISTRATION OF THE ROLLED OUT OF THE VACCINE.

  • YOU INTERVIEW TOP HEALTH EXPERTS AND IMMUNOLOGISTS AND

  • EPIDEMIOLOGISTS.

  • HAVE YOU ALREADY SEEN ANY CHANGE IN THE LEADERSHIP OF THE MEDICAL

  • COMMUNITY, NOW THAT THEY KNOW THERE'S GOING TO BE AN

  • ADMINISTRATION COMING IN THAT TAKES THIS A LITTLE MORE

  • SERIOUSLY?

  • >> YEAH.

  • I-- I HAVE.

  • AND-- I MEAN, YOU EVEN SEE IT C.E.O. C.D.C.

  • THE C.D.C. IS THE INTERNATIONAL GOLD STANDARD DISEASE-PREVENTION

  • AGENCY IN THE WORLD.

  • AND THEY JUST GOT ABSOLUTELY BATTERIED UNDER TRUMP.

  • AND IT RESULTED IN THEM DOING A LOT OF DUMB STUFF.

  • AND SINCE THE ELECTION, EVEN WITH TRUMP STILL THERE, YOU'VE

  • SEEN THEM START TO ASSERT THEMSELVES AND SORT OF SPEAK

  • MORE PLAINLY.

  • YOU'VE STARTED TO SEE C.D.C.

  • OFFICIALS MAKE PUBLIC-FACING STATEMENTS AND DO BRIEFINGS FOR

  • REPORTERS IN A WAY THAT THAT HAD ALL BEEN SUBSUMED UNDER THE

  • WHITE HOUSE AND THEIR, LIKE, QUACK CONTROL THEY HAD THERE.

  • NOW WE'RE GETTING VERY CLEAR GUIDANCE FROM THE C.D.C.: YOU

  • SHOULD WEAR A MASK ANY TIME YOU ARE ANYWHERE OTHER THAN HOME,

  • ANY INDOOR SETTING THAT YOU'RE IN, OTHER THAN YOUR OWN HOUSE,

  • YOU YOU SHOULD WEAR A MASK.

  • YES, THAT'S TRUE.

  • YOU COULD HAVE SAID THAT MONTHS AGO.

  • BUT AT LEAST YOU'RE SAYING IT NOW.

  • SEEING IT FROM THE C.D.C.

  • BUT ALSO THERE ARE ALSO ALL THESE VERY SERIOUS EXPERTS

  • COMING IN AND ADVISING BIDEN.

  • THEY'RE DOING LOTS OF PUBLIC-FACING DISCUSSIONS,

  • SPEAKING WITH ONE VOICE, ALL VERY CONSISTENT.

  • AND THAT JUST FEELS LIKE A SEA CHANGE FROM THE CLOWN SHOW STUFF

  • THAT TRUMP WAS DOING AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

  • IT FEELS BETTER ALREADY.

  • >> Stephen: NOW THAT WE KNOW-- 2020 HAS BEEN A SINGULAR YEAR.

  • THERE'S BEEN NO YEAR LIKE THIS IN MY LIFE-- AT LEAST NOT IN MY

  • ADULT SORT OF CONSCIOUS LIFE.

  • I KNOW THERE WERE TERRIBLE YEARS IN THE 1960, WHEN I WAS A CHILD.

  • BUT THERE'S BEEN NOTHING LIKE THIS YEAR.

  • BUT THERE'S BEEN NOTHING LIKE THE LAST FOUR YEARS, EITHER.

  • AND AS SOMEONE WHO CONSUMES AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF NEWS IN ORDER

  • TO CURATE IT AND DISTILL IT FOR YOUR AUDIENCE, TO TRY TO GIVE

  • IT-- AS I SAID YOU'RE MASTER OF PARTS ON THE LAWN.

  • THESE ARE THE PARTS OF THE STORY, LET ME PUT IT TOGETHER

  • AND SHOW YOU HOW THE ENGINE WORKS.

  • YOU HAVE CONSUME A LOT OF THE POISON OF WHAT THIS PRESENT

  • ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO SELL TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THE

  • WORLD.

  • HOW DO YOU THINK THAT HAS AFFECTED THE WAY YOU APPROACH

  • REPORTING THE NEWS?

  • >> AHH...

  • >> Stephen: THAT'S GOING TO HOPEFULLY GO BACK TO A DIFFERENT

  • SORT OF SOURCE OF NEWS NUTRIENT AFTER THIS.

  • NOW THAT IT'S COMING TO AN END TO SOME DEGREE, DO YOU HAVE ANY

  • PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT IT'S DONE?

  • >> ARE YOU ASKING BASICALLY DID THIS BREAK ME?

  • ( LAUGHTER ).

  • >> Stephen: NO, BUT DID IT IN SOME WAY CHANGE YOUR CHEMICAL

  • COMPOSITION?

  • >> IT MIGHT HAVE CHANGED WHAT I AM ABLE TO DIGEST AND HOW.

  • I MEAN, I-- I FEEL LIKE THIS WAS-- I MEAN, THIS IS A GREAT

  • TIME TO BE IN THE NEWS BUSINESS BECAUSE WE'VE NEVER BEEN MORE

  • VITAL, JUST TO LEARN THESE BASIC RULES AGAIN THAT IF WE DIDN'T

  • KNOW THEM BEFORE, YOU KNOW, DON'T LISTEN TO WHAT THEY'RE

  • SAYING.

  • JUST WATCH WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

  • DON'T-- DON'T TAKE AT FACE VALUE SOMETHING YOU GET FROM A

  • GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL BECAUSE A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL IS SAYING

  • IT.

  • THOSE RULES BECAME VERY EASY TO REMEMBER ALL OF A SUDDEN AGAIN

  • IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IS GOOD.

  • BUT THEY'RE GOOD RULES FOR US FOR ALL TIME.

  • I JUST FEEL LIKE, TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, LIKE TRAINING TO DO THIS

  • WORK MEANS YOU, LIKE, LEARN THE RULES OF THE ROAD, AND YOU LEARN

  • HOW TO OPERATE SAFELY, AND YOU, LIKE, BUILD UP YOUR SKILLS.

  • YOU KNOW, YOU TAKE LESSONS.

  • YOU LEARN FROM THE BEST.

  • IT'S LIKE GETTING A COMMERCIAL DRIVER'S LICENSE.

  • LIKE I'M GOING TO BE A BIG-RIG DRIVER.

  • I'M GOING TO BE OUT TO AMERICA'S HIGHWAYS.

  • I'M GOING TO CONVEY MYSELF DOWN THE HIGHWAY IN A WAY THAT IS

  • SAFE FOR MY FELLOW TRAVELERS.

  • AND THEN YOU ENTER INTO THIS ADMINISTRATION AND INSTEAD OF

  • GETTING YOUR BIG RIG AND ON THE HIGHWAY, IT TURNS OUT THERE ARE

  • BUMPER CARS.

  • AND ALL YOU'RE GOING TO DO ALL DAY IS SMASH INTO EACH OTHER AND

  • TRY TO HURT EACH OTHER, AND THAT'S YOUR DRIVING.

  • AND THAT'S YOUR JOB NOW.

  • >> Stephen: AND THE GUY IN THE BIGGEST BUMPER CAR IS SAYING

  • NOBODY ELSE IS OBEYING THE RULES, AND THE RULES ARE,

  • WHEREVER I DRIVE IS FINE.

  • >> AND I PUT DYNAMITE CHARGES IN MY BUMPER AND WHEN I HIT YOU,

  • YOU MIGHT DIE.

  • IT'S BEEN WEIRD, AND I THINK HAS UNWIRED A LOT OF US IN THE

  • BUSINESS IN A WAY.

  • I'M REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO BIDEN BEING BORING.

  • I MEAN, HE SORT OF PROMISED TO BE BORING --

  • >> Stephen: SO AM I.

  • I'VE NEVER BEEN MORE EXCITED BY VANILLA IN MY ENTIRE LIFE.

  • TWO SCOOPS, PLEASE.

  • >> YES.

  • >> Stephen: ARE THERE ANY PARTICULAR MEMBERS OF THE

  • CABINET THAT HE'S ANNOUNCED THAT EXCITE YOU MOST WITH THEIR...

  • BASE COMPETENCY?

  • >> WELL, I MEAN, ALL OF THEIR BORING BASE COMPETENCY IS ITSELF

  • LIKE THRILLING TO AN ALMOST ADULT- LEVEL DEGREE AT THIS

  • POINT.

  • LOOK AT YOU WITH ALL YOUR DEGREES AND EXPERIENCE AND YOUR

  • COOL-HEADED APPROACH TO MAINSTREAM PROBLEMS.

  • >> Stephen: TEAR ME OFF A PIECE OF THAT C.V

  • ( LAUGHTER ) >> I'M LIKE, I AM-- I AM UNDONE

  • BY YOUR M.D., M.P.H., C.D.C.

  • DIRECTOR.

  • >> Stephen: SAYS HERE YOU'VE DONE SOME PRO BONO WORK.

  • >> I'VE READ ALL YOUR AMICUS BRIEFS.

  • YEAH, SO IT'S-- IT'S-- I GET THRILLED BY NEW THINGS, WHICH

  • IS-- YEAH, PEOPLE KNOWING WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS BACK.

  • >> Stephen: THE SCOTUS REJECTED A BID TO OVERTURN THE

  • PENNSYLVANIA RESULTS YESTERDAY.

  • AND WE ALSO PASSED SOMETHING CALLED SAFE HARBOR DAY, WHEN

  • ESSENTIALLY THE ELECTORS ARE LOCKED.

  • DO YOU THINK, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES THERE ARE NO MORE

  • BALLS TO BE THROWN, AND AFTER THIS EVERYTHING IS JUST CHATTER.

  • >> YEAH, HMM...

  • I MEAN, ON EARTH ONE, THIS IS OVER.

  • >> Stephen: SURE.

  • >> BUT ON-- IN TRUMP LAND, THIS IS STILL A VERY REMUNERATIVE

  • THING.

  • HE'S STILL MAKING TONS OF MONEY DOING AND THIS MAKING SOME SORT

  • OF POLITICAL HAY THAT WE'RE NOT SURE WHAT HE'S GOING TIGER WOODS

  • IN THE FUTURE.

  • SAFE HARBOR DAY IS THE DAY BY WHICH BASICALLY ANY STATE THAT

  • CERTIFIES WHO IT'S SENDING TO THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, CONGRESS

  • CAN'T MESS WITH THEM.

  • THEY HAVE TO ACCEPT ALL THOSE ELECTORS.

  • ALL 50 STATES AS OF TODAY HAVE CERTIFIED THEIR ELECTION

  • RESULTS.

  • THERE IS NO HISTORY IN THIS COUNTRY OF ANY COURT FOR ANY

  • REASON OVERTURNING A PROPERLY CERTIFIED ELECTION RESULT IN ANY

  • STAE, LET ALONE THE WHOLE BUNCH OF STATES YOU WOULD NEED TO HAVE

  • OVERTHROWN IN ORDER FOR TRUMP TO