WELCOME BACK TO "A LATE SHOW."

I'M REALLY EXCITED TO CHECK IN WITH JON BATISTE TONIGHT.

JON, HELLO.

>> Jon: WHAT'S HAPPENING, STEPHEN.

>> Stephen: WHAT'S HAPPENING IS YOU HAVE TO LET ME KNOW WHEN

THERE ARE BIG EVENTS GOING ON WITH JON BATISTE.

I HAD TO FIND OUT ABOUT THIS ONLINE.

LOOK WHAT IS COMING OUT DECEMBER 17, NEXT THURSDAY.

IT IS AVAILABLE FOR PREORDER NOW.

IT IS THE DISNEY PIXAR SOUL BY JON BATISTE.

IT'S WON TWO ALBUMS THAT ARE COME, OUT WITH THAT MOVIE.

WHAT-- WHAT CAN WE SCPOCT THIS, JON?

WHAT'S GOING ON.

>> Jon: OH, MY GOODNESS.

THERE IS SO MUCH MUSIC IN THE FILM.

TRENT,, AT CUSS AS WELL AS MYSELF.

I'M SO GLAD IT'S COMING OUT.

IT WILL UPLIFT PEOPLE WHEN THEY SEE IT.

>> Stephen: THIS MUSIC FROM AND INSPIRED BY WILL THE FILM,

AND I UNDERSTAND YOU DID THE COMPOSITIONS AND THE

ARRANGEMENTS OF ALL THE SONGS ON THIS ALBUM.

>> Jon: YES, I HAD A BAND IT'S OLDEST PERSON IN THE BAND IS ROY

HAINES, WHO WAS A GUEST ON OUR SHOW.

HE WAS 95 WHEN WE RECORDED THIS RECORD.

>> Stephen: WAS HE THE ONE PLAYING THE DEEP BASS?

>> Jon: HE WAS PLAYING THE DRUMS.

IT WAS-- HE PLAYED THE DRUMS WITH JOE.

AND HE WAS THERE-- HE WAS 92 AT THE TIME.

HE WAS ON OUR SHOW.

>> Stephen: YOU WERE ALSO A CULTURAL CONSULTANT ON THE FILM.

WHAT DID THAT JOB ENTAIL?

>> Jon: JUST TALKING ABOUT THE WAY THAT MUSICIANS LIVE IN THE

WORLD AND THE WAY THAT WE PLAY TOGETHER, SO IT CAN FEEL VERY

AUTHENTIC WHEN YOU WATCH IT AND NOT SEEM LIKE-- YOU KNOW, WHEN

YOU SEE MUSIC IN FILM SOMETIMES, IT DOESN'T FEEL REAL.

SO I WANTED TO GIVE THEM THE REAL VIBES, YOU KNOW.

>> Stephen: JON BATISTE, EVERYBODY.

THE ALGUM BUM IS "SOUL" GO GET IT.

THANKS, JON.

MY FIRST GUEST IS AN AUTHOR AND EMMY-WINNING JOURNALIST WHO

HOSTS "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW."

HER LATEST BOOK IS CALLED "BAG MAN."

PLEASE WELCOME TO "A LATE SHOW," RACHEL MADDOW.

RACHEL GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> STEPHEN, IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Stephen: IT IS ALWAYS A BIT OF A VACATION FOR ME TO HAVE YOU

ON THE SHOW BECAUSE YOU'RE SUCH A CHAMPION TALKER THAT I CAN SIT

BACK AND JUST WATCH YOU TAKE APART THE STORIES OF THE DAY.

IT'S REALLY DELIGHTFUL.

BEFORE I GET STARTED, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU-- A FEW WEEKS AGO

YOU GAVE A POWERFUL BROADCAST FROM YOUR HOME ABOUT HOW YOUR

PARTNER, SUSAN, HAD CONTRACTED COVID.

FIRST OF ALL, HOW IS SHE DOING?

IS SHE ALL RIGHT?

>> SHE IS OKAY.

SHE GOT-- SHE HAD A, YOU KNOW, REAL CASE OF IT.

AND LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO HAD SYMPTOMATIC CASES, SHE'S GOT

KIND OF THE LONG TAIL OF THE SYMPTOMS, WHICH IS TRUE FOR

ALMOST EVERYBODY I KNOW THAT HAS HAD IT.

SHE'S GOT THE FATIGUE AND THE HEADABES AND COUGH LINGERING.

BUT SHE IS OUT OF WOODS IN TERMS OF US BEING SCARED THAT SHE

COULD TAKE A DOWNTURN.

SHE'S GOING TO BE FINE.

IT'S BEEN A BEAR TO DEAL WITH.

IT WAS THE SCARIEST THING I'VE EVER BEEN THROUGH IN MY LIFE,

BUT SHE'S GOING TO BE OKAY.

>> Stephen: HOW HAS THAT CHANGED YOUR COVERAGE OF COVID

NOW THAT IT'S BEEN IN YOUR OWN HOME WITH-- WITH YOUR DEAREST

ONE?

>> IT'S AN INTERESTING QUESTION.

I MEAN, I THINK...

I MEAN, IF I'M HONEST ABOUT IT, THIS PROBABLY SOUNDS A LITTLE

BIT ACADEMIC, BUT THE REACTION TO ME TALKING ABOUT THAT ON THE

AIR, TO ME SAYING, "LISTEN, I TAKE THIS AS SERIOUSLY AS

ANYBODY, BUT I JUST REALIZED THAT I WASN'T THAT SCARED ABOUT

GETTING IT MYSELF, BUT SEEING SUSAN SUFFERING WITH IT, IS THE

SCARIEST THING IN MY LIFE, AND I WOULD NOW DO ANYTHING TO PREVENT

THAT SORT OF RISK TO HER."

ME PUTTING IT OUT THERE, THE WAY PEOPLE RESPONDED TO THAT MADE ME

SORT OF REALIZE THAT I THINK WE NEED TO PAY CLOSER ATTENTION TO

WHAT MOTIVATES PEOPLE AND THEIR BEHAVIOR AROUND RISK.

IT'S-- YOU KNOW, IT'S ONE THING TO JUST SAY, "DON'T DO IT.

THAT'S DANGEROUS.

DON'T DO IT.

THAT'S POTENTIALLY GOING TO GET YOU INTO TROUBLE.

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO."

IT'S ANOTHER THING TO UNDERSTAND THAT PEOPLE TAKE RISKS FOR A

REASON.

IT'S HUMAN NATURE.

IT DOESN'T MAKE YOU A BAD PERSON.

BUT FOR ME IT WAS REVEALATORY THAT I CARE A LOT MORE ABOUT MY

PARTNER AND HER SAFETY THAN I DO ABOUT MYSELF.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT SAYS ABOUT ME PSYCHOLOGICALLY, BUT I

REALIZED THAT WAS THE MOTIVATIONAL TRIP FOR ME.

AND IT MADE ME REALIZE WE HAVE TO SOR OF THINK ABOUT WHAT

MOVES PEOPLE MORE THAN WE ALREADY HAVE BEEN, ESPECIALLY

NOW THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THIS VACCINE.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WILL MOTIVATE PEOPLE

TO DO THE RIGHT THING AROUND THE VACCINATION PROGRAM.

>> Stephen: LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE

ADMINISTRATION OF OUR PUBLIC HEALTH AND, EVENTUALLY, THE

ADMINISTRATION OF THE ROLLED OUT OF THE VACCINE.

YOU INTERVIEW TOP HEALTH EXPERTS AND IMMUNOLOGISTS AND

EPIDEMIOLOGISTS.

HAVE YOU ALREADY SEEN ANY CHANGE IN THE LEADERSHIP OF THE MEDICAL

COMMUNITY, NOW THAT THEY KNOW THERE'S GOING TO BE AN

ADMINISTRATION COMING IN THAT TAKES THIS A LITTLE MORE

SERIOUSLY?

>> YEAH.

I-- I HAVE.

AND-- I MEAN, YOU EVEN SEE IT C.E.O. C.D.C.

THE C.D.C. IS THE INTERNATIONAL GOLD STANDARD DISEASE-PREVENTION

AGENCY IN THE WORLD.

AND THEY JUST GOT ABSOLUTELY BATTERIED UNDER TRUMP.

AND IT RESULTED IN THEM DOING A LOT OF DUMB STUFF.

AND SINCE THE ELECTION, EVEN WITH TRUMP STILL THERE, YOU'VE

SEEN THEM START TO ASSERT THEMSELVES AND SORT OF SPEAK

MORE PLAINLY.

YOU'VE STARTED TO SEE C.D.C.

OFFICIALS MAKE PUBLIC-FACING STATEMENTS AND DO BRIEFINGS FOR

REPORTERS IN A WAY THAT THAT HAD ALL BEEN SUBSUMED UNDER THE

WHITE HOUSE AND THEIR, LIKE, QUACK CONTROL THEY HAD THERE.

NOW WE'RE GETTING VERY CLEAR GUIDANCE FROM THE C.D.C.: YOU

SHOULD WEAR A MASK ANY TIME YOU ARE ANYWHERE OTHER THAN HOME,

ANY INDOOR SETTING THAT YOU'RE IN, OTHER THAN YOUR OWN HOUSE,

YOU YOU SHOULD WEAR A MASK.

YES, THAT'S TRUE.

YOU COULD HAVE SAID THAT MONTHS AGO.

BUT AT LEAST YOU'RE SAYING IT NOW.

SEEING IT FROM THE C.D.C.

BUT ALSO THERE ARE ALSO ALL THESE VERY SERIOUS EXPERTS

COMING IN AND ADVISING BIDEN.

THEY'RE DOING LOTS OF PUBLIC-FACING DISCUSSIONS,

SPEAKING WITH ONE VOICE, ALL VERY CONSISTENT.

AND THAT JUST FEELS LIKE A SEA CHANGE FROM THE CLOWN SHOW STUFF

THAT TRUMP WAS DOING AT THE WHITE HOUSE.

IT FEELS BETTER ALREADY.

>> Stephen: NOW THAT WE KNOW-- 2020 HAS BEEN A SINGULAR YEAR.

THERE'S BEEN NO YEAR LIKE THIS IN MY LIFE-- AT LEAST NOT IN MY

ADULT SORT OF CONSCIOUS LIFE.

I KNOW THERE WERE TERRIBLE YEARS IN THE 1960, WHEN I WAS A CHILD.

BUT THERE'S BEEN NOTHING LIKE THIS YEAR.

BUT THERE'S BEEN NOTHING LIKE THE LAST FOUR YEARS, EITHER.

AND AS SOMEONE WHO CONSUMES AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF NEWS IN ORDER

TO CURATE IT AND DISTILL IT FOR YOUR AUDIENCE, TO TRY TO GIVE

IT-- AS I SAID YOU'RE MASTER OF PARTS ON THE LAWN.

THESE ARE THE PARTS OF THE STORY, LET ME PUT IT TOGETHER

AND SHOW YOU HOW THE ENGINE WORKS.

YOU HAVE CONSUME A LOT OF THE POISON OF WHAT THIS PRESENT

ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO SELL TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THE

WORLD.

HOW DO YOU THINK THAT HAS AFFECTED THE WAY YOU APPROACH

REPORTING THE NEWS?

>> AHH...

>> Stephen: THAT'S GOING TO HOPEFULLY GO BACK TO A DIFFERENT

SORT OF SOURCE OF NEWS NUTRIENT AFTER THIS.

NOW THAT IT'S COMING TO AN END TO SOME DEGREE, DO YOU HAVE ANY

PERSPECTIVE ON WHAT IT'S DONE?

>> ARE YOU ASKING BASICALLY DID THIS BREAK ME?

( LAUGHTER ).

>> Stephen: NO, BUT DID IT IN SOME WAY CHANGE YOUR CHEMICAL

COMPOSITION?

>> IT MIGHT HAVE CHANGED WHAT I AM ABLE TO DIGEST AND HOW.

I MEAN, I-- I FEEL LIKE THIS WAS-- I MEAN, THIS IS A GREAT

TIME TO BE IN THE NEWS BUSINESS BECAUSE WE'VE NEVER BEEN MORE

VITAL, JUST TO LEARN THESE BASIC RULES AGAIN THAT IF WE DIDN'T

KNOW THEM BEFORE, YOU KNOW, DON'T LISTEN TO WHAT THEY'RE

SAYING.

JUST WATCH WHAT THEY'RE DOING.

DON'T-- DON'T TAKE AT FACE VALUE SOMETHING YOU GET FROM A

GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL BECAUSE A GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL IS SAYING

IT.

THOSE RULES BECAME VERY EASY TO REMEMBER ALL OF A SUDDEN AGAIN

IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WHICH IS GOOD.

BUT THEY'RE GOOD RULES FOR US FOR ALL TIME.

I JUST FEEL LIKE, TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, LIKE TRAINING TO DO THIS

WORK MEANS YOU, LIKE, LEARN THE RULES OF THE ROAD, AND YOU LEARN

HOW TO OPERATE SAFELY, AND YOU, LIKE, BUILD UP YOUR SKILLS.

YOU KNOW, YOU TAKE LESSONS.

YOU LEARN FROM THE BEST.

IT'S LIKE GETTING A COMMERCIAL DRIVER'S LICENSE.

LIKE I'M GOING TO BE A BIG-RIG DRIVER.

I'M GOING TO BE OUT TO AMERICA'S HIGHWAYS.

I'M GOING TO CONVEY MYSELF DOWN THE HIGHWAY IN A WAY THAT IS

SAFE FOR MY FELLOW TRAVELERS.

AND THEN YOU ENTER INTO THIS ADMINISTRATION AND INSTEAD OF

GETTING YOUR BIG RIG AND ON THE HIGHWAY, IT TURNS OUT THERE ARE

BUMPER CARS.

AND ALL YOU'RE GOING TO DO ALL DAY IS SMASH INTO EACH OTHER AND

TRY TO HURT EACH OTHER, AND THAT'S YOUR DRIVING.

AND THAT'S YOUR JOB NOW.

>> Stephen: AND THE GUY IN THE BIGGEST BUMPER CAR IS SAYING

NOBODY ELSE IS OBEYING THE RULES, AND THE RULES ARE,

WHEREVER I DRIVE IS FINE.

>> AND I PUT DYNAMITE CHARGES IN MY BUMPER AND WHEN I HIT YOU,

YOU MIGHT DIE.

IT'S BEEN WEIRD, AND I THINK HAS UNWIRED A LOT OF US IN THE

BUSINESS IN A WAY.

I'M REALLY LOOKING FORWARD TO BIDEN BEING BORING.

I MEAN, HE SORT OF PROMISED TO BE BORING --

>> Stephen: SO AM I.

I'VE NEVER BEEN MORE EXCITED BY VANILLA IN MY ENTIRE LIFE.

TWO SCOOPS, PLEASE.

>> YES.

>> Stephen: ARE THERE ANY PARTICULAR MEMBERS OF THE

CABINET THAT HE'S ANNOUNCED THAT EXCITE YOU MOST WITH THEIR...

BASE COMPETENCY?

>> WELL, I MEAN, ALL OF THEIR BORING BASE COMPETENCY IS ITSELF

LIKE THRILLING TO AN ALMOST ADULT- LEVEL DEGREE AT THIS

POINT.

LOOK AT YOU WITH ALL YOUR DEGREES AND EXPERIENCE AND YOUR

COOL-HEADED APPROACH TO MAINSTREAM PROBLEMS.

>> Stephen: TEAR ME OFF A PIECE OF THAT C.V

( LAUGHTER ) >> I'M LIKE, I AM-- I AM UNDONE

BY YOUR M.D., M.P.H., C.D.C.

DIRECTOR.

>> Stephen: SAYS HERE YOU'VE DONE SOME PRO BONO WORK.

>> I'VE READ ALL YOUR AMICUS BRIEFS.

YEAH, SO IT'S-- IT'S-- I GET THRILLED BY NEW THINGS, WHICH

IS-- YEAH, PEOPLE KNOWING WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS BACK.

>> Stephen: THE SCOTUS REJECTED A BID TO OVERTURN THE

PENNSYLVANIA RESULTS YESTERDAY.

AND WE ALSO PASSED SOMETHING CALLED SAFE HARBOR DAY, WHEN

ESSENTIALLY THE ELECTORS ARE LOCKED.

DO YOU THINK, FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES THERE ARE NO MORE

BALLS TO BE THROWN, AND AFTER THIS EVERYTHING IS JUST CHATTER.

>> YEAH, HMM...

I MEAN, ON EARTH ONE, THIS IS OVER.

>> Stephen: SURE.

>> BUT ON-- IN TRUMP LAND, THIS IS STILL A VERY REMUNERATIVE

THING.

HE'S STILL MAKING TONS OF MONEY DOING AND THIS MAKING SOME SORT

OF POLITICAL HAY THAT WE'RE NOT SURE WHAT HE'S GOING TIGER WOODS

IN THE FUTURE.

SAFE HARBOR DAY IS THE DAY BY WHICH BASICALLY ANY STATE THAT

CERTIFIES WHO IT'S SENDING TO THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, CONGRESS

CAN'T MESS WITH THEM.

THEY HAVE TO ACCEPT ALL THOSE ELECTORS.

ALL 50 STATES AS OF TODAY HAVE CERTIFIED THEIR ELECTION

RESULTS.

THERE IS NO HISTORY IN THIS COUNTRY OF ANY COURT FOR ANY

REASON OVERTURNING A PROPERLY CERTIFIED ELECTION RESULT IN ANY

STAE, LET ALONE THE WHOLE BUNCH OF STATES YOU WOULD NEED TO HAVE

OVERTHROWN IN ORDER FOR TRUMP TO