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  • Male Speaker: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the CNBC Debate

  • "The West Isn't Working."

  • Please switch off your phones. We are ready to begin.

  • This debate is being televised by CNBC, and your presence is considered your

  • consent to be filmed.

  • And now, please welcome your moderator,

  • Maria Bartiromo. [Applause]

  • Maria Bartiromo: Good morning everyone. Thank you so much for joining us this

  • morning. For the first time in a long time, if not

  • ever, there is a conversation happening around the world that is questioning the

  • sustainability of the super power status of the West.

  • Why is the West not working? We are here today to talk about one of

  • the most urgent problems of our time, unemployment.

  • The global recession has resulted in a massive loss of jobs, creating what the

  • head of the IMF has called "a wasteland of unemployment," and Dominique Strauss-Kahn

  • is not the only one concerned.

  • President Barack Obama: That world has changed, and for many, the change has been

  • painful.

  • I've seen it in the shuttered windows of once booming factories and the vacant

  • storefronts on once busy Main Streets.

  • I've heard it in the frustrations of Americans who've seen their paychecks

  • dwindle or their jobs disappear -- proud men and women who feel like the rules have

  • been changed in the middle of the game.

  • They're right.

  • The rules have changed.

  • Maria Bartiromo: Without jobs, the economy cannot recover.

  • We are here today to find solutions. Meet our panelists: Arianna Huffington of

  • The Huffington Post; Naveen Jindal, the head of Jindal Steel and Power; Laura

  • Tyson, professor at the University of California Berkeley and an adviser to the

  • Obama administration; and Philip Jennings, General Secretary of

  • UNI Global Union. Ladies and gentlemen, our challengers.

  • Today's debate is in two parts and in each of these, a motion will be argued by our

  • advocates.

  • They'll have 90 seconds to make their case.

  • They'll then face questions from our challengers and from all of you,

  • the audience. We are looking forward to your

  • participation so get ready with your questions.

  • Motion 1: For a dynamic workforce, go East.

  • Most of the jobs lost since 2007 have disappeared from the West.

  • Meanwhile, some emerging countries have barely felt the recession.

  • In the battle of jobs, who is winning? Manuel Salazar: We recorded open

  • unemployment going up by more than 30 million people.

  • It becomes more and more difficult to get those millions of people out of the

  • unemployment and into jobs.

  • Ian Cheshire: Our key challenge in the West is to prepare for the next generation

  • of jobs, the type of skills that will be needed, the type of industries that will

  • be around in 20 years. Ben Jealous: We need vision for how we in

  • the West continue to employ people who have fewer skills or whose skills can be

  • found somewhere else for cheaper. David Arkless: In places like China,

  • Vietnam, Indonesia, where the workforce is probably as dynamic as we've ever seen in

  • the industrial era. President Barack Obama: When global firms

  • were asked a few years back where they planned on building new research

  • and development facilities, nearly 80 percent said either China or India.

  • David Arkless: They should be scared about how efficient the Chinese economy

  • is becoming because it will, if we allow it, dominate the world economy.

  • The issue is can we compete? Can the West come back?

  • Maria Bartiromo: Let me introduce our first advocates.

  • Arguing for the motion that for a dynamic workforce, go East is Kiran Mazumdar-Shaw,

  • CEO of Biocon. And against the motion is Barry Silbert,

  • CEO of SecondMarket. Kiran, please begin.

  • Kiran Mazumdar-Shaw: Thanks, Maria. Well, you know, in an interconnected

  • world, it's just bound to happen that jobs will move from the stagnant mature markets

  • of the Western Hemisphere to the very vibrant and high-growth markets in the

  • East. And in an interconnected world, I think

  • companies will be compelled to move money and jobs to make them more globally

  • competitive to the East.

  • So there is enough evidence to show that this is happening.

  • I mean if you look at what's happening with companies in U.S. and Europe,

  • they are on a hiring spree in Asia whilst they are shedding jobs back home.

  • So the evidence is there.

  • We have to accept that jobs will move to regions where there is high growth

  • and higher returns. Manufacturing, conventional,

  • traditional manufacturing is going to move East because that's where the lower label costs

  • are. That's where better capital efficiencies

  • are. So this is the shape of things to come

  • and the West has to accept it. But having said that, I do believe that

  • it's not all bad news because the Western consumer has benefited in a big way.

  • Take for example mobile phones. If it wasn't for the huge economies of

  • scale created by India and China, you couldn't get those bargain prices at

  • Walmart or Best Buy. So the way I look at it is that times have

  • changed and I think the West has to accept that fact that there has to be a different

  • way of creating new jobs. Jobs being lost have to be replaced with

  • different jobs. Maria Bartiromo: Kiran, thank you very

  • much for that side of the argument. Now let's hear the other.

  • Barry, over to you.

  • Barry Sibert: When I was first approached about participating in this debate, I was

  • hesitant to accept the invitation to defend the West.

  • Aside from the fact that I have two very large Asian investors in my company,

  • how can I overlook the success of incredible entrepreneurs like Ms. Shaw and the many

  • startups in developing countries blazing paths oftentimes against significant odds?

  • But it got me thinking given that small businesses are the largest job creators,

  • what does it take to start a business? I quickly realized that contrary to the

  • title of the debate, the West is working quite well.

  • There are really kind of four key critical elements that are necessary to starting

  • and growing a business. First, you need a skilled and educated

  • workforce. Second, you need rule of law,

  • including intellectual property protection. Third, you need a proper balance between

  • government regulation and free markets. And lastly, you need access to capital.

  • And it is this final element that I believe the West outshines the East in

  • particular. The West I believe has the most developed

  • capital formation process, from angel investing to venture in private equity

  • funds to the markets both public and now private necessary to support innovative

  • businesses, and it is these types of companies that create long-lasting

  • sustainable jobs. So I offer to the audience that the West

  • can in fact be the engine for future job creation, particularly if the government

  • and business can work together to find easier access to risk capital for small businesses.

  • Maria Bartiromo: Thank you very much. You both make terrific arguments.

  • Challengers, these are the two arguments. Who is right?

  • Naveen Jindal: Well, I think Kiran Shaw is completely right, that it is happening

  • in the East.

  • We are all the time looking for people. We are hiring, say, in our steel

  • and power business, we are looking, we are hiring thousands of workers,

  • skilled, semi-skilled, even unskilled people and giving them those skills which are

  • necessary. In fact, we have a problem of not finding

  • enough skilled people, and that's a very big responsibility.

  • We almost need an additional 300 to 350 million trained people by 2020.

  • And I completely disagree with what Barry said because if the West was working well,

  • now why would the unemployment rate be so alarming?

  • And all those clippings you showed,

  • why would there be such an alarm? Why would CNBC host a program called "The

  • West is Not Working?" if it was working well?

  • So CNBC can't be this wrong.

  • Maria Bartiromo: A fair point. Philip J. Jennings: We need a message of

  • hope from this event. The working people of the West are ready

  • to save the West if they are given the chance.

  • There was a rotten business model in the West which brought those economies to

  • their knees. It was the people that paid the bill.

  • They are angry. They are cornered.

  • And if we have the argument, if I have to face a group of workers and I say,

  • "The future is in the East," they will be more Jasmine Revolutions by the day.

  • Maria Bartiromo: And we've seen protests. Philip J. Jennings: People have to wake

  • up. People have to wake up.

  • The G20, wake up. We've asked for a working party at the

  • G20 on unemployment. We are still arguing.

  • Sarkozy is here tomorrow. I hope he's got his jobs mojo with him.

  • We have to -- there are things to address.

  • The G20 has to wake up. We have to look at inequality.

  • Henry Ford was right. You put money in workers' pockets

  • and we'll make the wheels of the economy turn. It is not happening.

  • The top 10ths of one percent in the

  • States took 30 percent of all the income during the course of the last 20 years.

  • Maria Bartiromo: So you agree with Kiran? Philip J. Jennings: We got to plan.

  • Maria Bartiromo: You agree with Kiran? Philip J. Jennings: No, I don't agree

  • with Kiran. Kiran, we need to grow in the East and the

  • West. India, you have to create 270 million jobs

  • in the next 20 years. You are going to need the help of the

  • West to help you get there. You have 100 million people living in

  • poverty today.

  • Kiran Mazumdar-Shaw: Well, you know, Philip, I do agree with you in a way that

  • this is about creating a new kind of global job market.

  • This is about creating complementary and equitable jobs in both hemispheres, and I

  • think we have to create jobs that share risks and resources across the innovation

  • and commercialization continuum. So I agree with you to that extent and I

  • think the West will have to become more, depend on countries like India and China

  • to be globally competitive. You cannot build vertically integrated

  • job markets in the Western Hemisphere or in any hemisphere for that matter.

  • Maria Bartiromo: Arianna. Arianna Huffington: What is missing in

  • the West is what really was here in the introduction to the show, which is that

  • sense of urgency. I think the introduction to this show

  • should be played at the White House and on Capitol Hill and in parliaments around

  • Europe everyday because that sense of urgency around jobs is really missing.

  • I mean politicians, as the President said in the State of the Union, talk about jobs

  • but they are not really doing anything about jobs and it's this dysfunctional

  • political system in the West that's making it so difficult to produce anything but

  • suboptimal solutions that's creating that danger because remember, when the West

  • brought a sense of urgency to saving the financial system, they saved the financial

  • system. We have enough tools in our toolbox.

  • It's just that we never brought that same sense of urgency around jobs.

  • And yet, it's not just the economic problems that ensue.

  • It's the political instability that is growing.

  • And I have two daughters in college and increasingly, we have college graduates

  • who cannot get jobs. Just imagine that.

  • That really disrupts the natural course of events.

  • So as well as all the other problems we are facing, the problem of youth

  • unemployment in the West is particularly large and so we cannot just,

  • unfortunately, assume that things will get better by themselves.

  • Laura Tyson: Can I say something here? I think actually Barry raised a very

  • important point. I think we should realize that until the

  • crisis, if we had a discussion here five years ago, we wouldn't have this

  • discussion. Five years ago, and the evidence is very

  • strong on this, it's not an either/or proposition.

  • There was complementarity and jobs growing both in Asia and in the emerging markets

  • and certainly in the United States. So we have here a very profound deep

  • cyclical problem. It does not mean if we go forward,

  • we cannot find a world with enough growth that we have jobs growing in both places.

  • So I don't agree it's like a shift, oh my God, a job there is a job lost.

  • It's just not true. Research establishments in emerging

  • markets are complementary in many respects to research establishments in the U.S.

  • or Europe. To Barry's point, I think Barry is making

  • a very important point. Look at issues of ease of doing business.

  • That list is dominated by many Western economies, including the United States.

  • And with the right capital market conditions, with the right demand

  • conditions, with the right physical and monetary policy, the U.S. has been

  • and will be in the future a powerhouse of entrepreneurship.

  • Most jobs that most people have in the world for now and the foreseeable future,

  • even though they will be globally integrated, will be local jobs.

  • They will be jobs that are service jobs for the people who live in their regions,

  • their communities, their states, and their nations.

  • And those jobs will depend upon two things: one is the amount of demand,

  • how healthy the macro-economy is, and two is the strength of the educational system in

  • those economies. And we can talk about that.

  • That's going to be the second session here, but I think that's, for me,

  • I believe the U.S. can get its macro house in order.

  • I worry very much about the educational challenge.

  • Maria Bartiromo: Education is a critical part of this and we are going to get

  • there. Let's bring in our audience and our

  • special invited guests will kick that off with the front row.

  • Comments? Who is right?

  • Adi B. Godrej: I think that what we should realize, as Laura mentioned,

  • that the recent rise in unemployment in the Western world has little to do with job

  • transfers to the East. It has to do with the slowdown of the

  • economy post the financial crisis.

  • The system worked very well just prior to that and we need to encourage that.

  • Comparative advantage will create for productivity increases which will add to

  • global growth and lead to employment creation in both parts of the world.

  • I think we should also distinguish between unemployment and unemployability.

  • Some of the unemployment may be because of economic factors.

  • But a lot of it is because of unemployability created by lack of

  • education, lack of training. I don't see why in the Western world

  • where unemployment benefits are paid out in large numbers simultaneously insistence

  • of those people going through training programs is not done.

  • Maria Bartiromo: This is a very critical point and we will get to the skill sets

  • that are required to get the jobs of tomorrow in the next segment.

  • Zhu Min, you've spent a long time running the People's Bank of China and then moving

  • over to the IMF. You have a special vantage point here in

  • terms of what's happening in the world. Give it to us.

  • Zhu Min: Well, thank you. We at the IMF in the past few years

  • coupled with the labor unions particularly on these issues because these are

  • absolutely important. If we are looking for the job, there are